View Full Version : BvC vs LT Smiter fair?
WW > Smite already. I guess LT makes it a bit more fair.
BierWiser
03-11-2006, 03:31
Yeah smiters are very easy with good AR. The thing is, just don't WW right through them, that will allow them quite a few hits. As for the lighting, they will be without fanaticism and smite, so while they do that, you can just teleport and attack them. They will be trying to keep distance anyways. I'd say the only real problem is the lightning damage. With good resists that won't be a problem.
RetroStar
03-11-2006, 04:00
Yeah smiters are very easy with good AR. The thing is, just don't WW right through them, that will allow them quite a few hits. As for the lighting, they will be without fanaticism and smite, so while they do that, you can just teleport and attack them. They will be trying to keep distance anyways. I'd say the only real problem is the lightning damage. With good resists that won't be a problem.
LT as in life tap?
mainaman
03-11-2006, 05:04
LT as in life tap?
i bet its life tap
Of course it's lifetap. He was just clarifying. ~_~
Yeah smiters are very easy with good AR. The thing is, just don't WW right through them, that will allow them quite a few hits. As for the lighting, they will be without fanaticism and smite, so while they do that, you can just teleport and attack them. They will be trying to keep distance anyways. I'd say the only real problem is the lightning damage. With good resists that won't be a problem.
Rofl, good smiters don't give you the time to teleport also quite a few people use fortis vs smite. Rofl at lightning damage.
Anyway i didn't ask how to duel smiters, this thread is to discuss weather it's a fair duel.
IMO.
Yes, lt will effectivly counteract the advantage of WW.
mainaman
03-11-2006, 14:49
Rofl, good smiters don't give you the time to teleport also quite a few people use fortis vs smite. Rofl at lightning damage.
Anyway i didn't ask how to duel smiters, this thread is to discuss weather it's a fair duel.the only time its a fair duel iswhen the smiter has same range as the barb, if they use pb its still very much in favor of the BvC.
But aside from that whats your guys opinion , is LT bm in such a duel or not?
I find it challenging in a fun way to duel lt + ba smiters, it's quite a fun duel in my opinion but of course if would find lt bm in tvts or any other 1v1s. It seems pretty fair to me and it's similar to bvc vs lt zeal.
Thoridian
03-11-2006, 16:07
WW > Smite with or without LT
with similiar gear and similiar "skill", ww is indeed > smite
morotsjos
04-11-2006, 15:45
I find it challenging in a fun way to duel lt + ba smiters, it's quite a fun duel in my opinion but of course if would find lt bm in tvts or any other 1v1s. It seems pretty fair to me and it's similar to bvc vs lt zeal.
zealots are nothing compared to smiters, mostly because noone make anti-barb zealots.
any random smiter with enigma can beat 95% of barbs in 20 seconds, assuming equal skill/gear smiter will nearly always win any series of duels. smiters control the game since they can charge, desynch, slow+holy freeze, telesmite, widow-hit-and-run and medi at will. the reason nearly noone bothers with that is because they find barbs easy enough anyway.
decked out smiters with 5k+ life, 50k+ def, dracs+exile, grief pb and some stacked ias wont lose if they decide not to.
Thoridian
04-11-2006, 16:07
decked out smiters with 5k+ life, 50k+ def, dracs+exile, grief pb and some stacked ias wont lose if they decide not to.
How about *Brutality (my friends smiter)? He had like 50k+ def and 4.5k+ life and max dr and yet he lost to u
morotsjos
04-11-2006, 17:03
How about *Brutality (my friends smiter)? He had like 50k+ def and 4.5k+ life and max dr and yet he lost to u
if i think of the right smiter he still won a few duels. consider that he was the aggressor, didn't utilize charge/slow/holy freeze/medi/widow/desynch whatsoever and obviously was way less experienced than me.
morotsjos, whats your resoning behind the fact that pb smiters are better than ba ones?
Iirc on east {i dont know for sure cause i'm west}, smite v smite utalize %slow to screw up ba smiters.
BierWiser
04-11-2006, 22:30
Oh, sorry, I was thinking v/t not LT.
Rofl, good smiters don't give you the time to teleport also quite a few people use fortis vs smite. Rofl at lightning damage.
Anyway i didn't ask how to duel smiters, this thread is to discuss weather it's a fair duel.Well you said discuss. I am pretty sure some criticism isn't needed when I say how I duel smiters with WW, I think I got pretty close to the topic.
morotsjos
05-11-2006, 04:18
morotsjos, whats your resoning behind the fact that pb smiters are better than ba ones?
30 more base speed. good vs barbs who use slow. useless otherwise. then again range is overrated when telesmiting.
moonlike
05-11-2006, 20:50
zealots are nothing compared to smiters, mostly because noone make anti-barb zealots.
any random smiter with enigma can beat 95% of barbs in 20 seconds, assuming equal skill/gear smiter will nearly always win any series of duels. smiters control the game since they can charge, desynch, slow+holy freeze, telesmite, widow-hit-and-run and medi at will. the reason nearly noone bothers with that is because they find barbs easy enough anyway.
decked out smiters with 5k+ life, 50k+ def, dracs+exile, grief pb and some stacked ias wont lose if they decide not to.
widow vs enigma barb o0
besides smiters usually cry about ww barb >smiter .
morotsjos
05-11-2006, 22:44
widow vs enigma barb o0
besides smiters usually cry about ww barb >smiter .
desynching, shooting a few arrows off-screen while switching to shift-smite randomly works wonders. only way for barb to catch desyncher is to tele on top, and doing that on a clued smiter means pretty much instant death.
everyone always blames character advantage when losing, especially pallies who charge into ww away lol.
I guess you could deliver lt with widow to start the duel off and then smite.
moonlike
05-11-2006, 23:05
desynching, shooting a few arrows off-screen while switching to shift-smite randomly works wonders. only way for barb to catch desyncher is to tele on top, and doing that on a clued smiter means pretty much instant death.
everyone always blames character advantage when losing, especially pallies who charge into ww away lol.
i played vs pala who tried charge away from my screen and shot ga but its easy counterable by unsommon lock and tele (he will not nl enough fast to shift smite u)- never played vs smiter who did it on my screen tho
btw do u use forti(31dr) or enigma/verdgo (50dr) vs smiters ?
morotsjos
05-11-2006, 23:25
i played vs pala who tried charge away from my screen and shot ga but its easy counterable by unsommon lock and tele (he will not nl enough fast to shift smite u)- never played vs smiter who did it on my screen tho
btw do u use forti(31dr) or enigma/verdgo (50dr) vs smiters ?
when using widow to force barb on the move it's pretty easy to anticipate their tele/ww and switching before-hand. then barb is prone to get hit at least once =/
anyway smiters can just desynch/tele off minimap, then desynch closer and hit-and-run with widow. coupled with passive drive-by charges with holy freeze barb will open himself up for either charge or telesmite sooner or later.
i have 50% dr with fort as well but i often prefer enigma in serious duels. depends on how the smiter plays of course but the results with fort are more random in my experience.
moonlike
05-11-2006, 23:53
when using widow to force barb on the move it's pretty easy to anticipate their tele/ww and switching before-hand. then barb is prone to get hit at least once =/
anyway smiters can just desynch/tele off minimap, then desynch closer and hit-and-run with widow. coupled with passive drive-by charges with holy freeze barb will open himself up for either charge or telesmite sooner or later.
i have 50% dr with fort as well but i often prefer enigma in serious duels. depends on how the smiter plays of course but the results with fort are more random in my experience.
so barb has no chance to win vs top smiter ?(hard to belive becoz i never met one who beat me more than I him, but maybe there is smiter which cant be beaten by bvc if yes that convince me to use hammer as a pvp char :( )
I've never seen a smiter with widow, ever.
morotsjos
06-11-2006, 11:19
so barb has no chance to win vs top smiter ?(hard to belive becoz i never met one who beat me more than I him, but maybe there is smiter which cant be beaten by bvc if yes that convince me to use hammer as a pvp char :( )
i wouldn't say that. i know of at least one player that _will_ beat me with pure smite if he just changes playing style. i just dont see how it's possible for any barb to win consistently vs perfectly played smiter who utilize most of what i listed.
barb vs hammer depends on what you're dueling. i dont know about ladder but in nl all sorcs run around with 9x% es which is annoying for hammers (np in 1v1 though ty telesmite). on the other hand our pubs are crowded with pallies of all kind; foh/smiters/hammers which are even more annoying for barbs. personally i like hammer for pubs and barb for 1v1. if pallies aren't that plentiful/good (from what i've heard they shouldn't be any problem) i'd probably keep barb if i were you.
morotsjos
06-11-2006, 11:20
I've never seen a smiter with widow, ever.
i've seen a few. they would be really hard if they knew how to use it but im not the one to tell them.
How effective is 1 frame fbr, i was thinking what if the smiter used gris shield shael sahel ber/eld vs ww.
2 funny things here....
1) talking about life tap being fair or not and first thing i noticed was talking about teleporting, imo only fair duels are with people only using skills for their own class
2) ww > smite? no questions asked? riiiiiiiiight, range 3, max fpa, high defense (aka not stupid enigma like lot of smiters still use) and it wont be so easy, way too many smiters run around without using a zerker, have way too low defense and probably dont even hit second fhr breakpoint so yeah, most people think ww > smite
Actually.
Enigma using smiters are probably one of the worst matchups for bvcs.
morotsjos
08-11-2006, 12:43
How effective is 1 frame fbr, i was thinking what if the smiter used gris shield shael sahel ber/eld vs ww.
since smite is uninterruptable (and you can keep blocking during block-animation) it wont affect the outcome of the duel whatsoever.
morotsjos
08-11-2006, 13:05
2 funny things here....
1) talking about life tap being fair or not and first thing i noticed was talking about teleporting, imo only fair duels are with people only using skills for their own class
2) ww > smite? no questions asked? riiiiiiiiight, range 3, max fpa, high defense (aka not stupid enigma like lot of smiters still use) and it wont be so easy, way too many smiters run around without using a zerker, have way too low defense and probably dont even hit second fhr breakpoint so yeah, most people think ww > smite
have you even played barb vs smite the last year lol?
without enigma you cant touch a non-retarded barb. 50k def is enough by far. 30k def is enough if you know what you're doing.
zerker blows. the range difference is negliable. the speed difference is not.
fhr vs barbs is utterly useless.
your suggested smiter is the worst possible build vs barbs, anyone who played barb for more than a month cant possible lose to that.
four questions though;
what would you use instead of enigma?
is lifetap "fair" while tele isn't?
do you seriously consider 7k life, 46% dr fortbarb vs 2.5k life 8-10 fpa non-tele smiter "fair"?
how do you plan beating smiters with foh as backup without tele?
cheers
i took a break of almost a year and i even killed barbs without having the huge dmg boost of grief, besides that, zerker does not blow and its incredibly easy hitting last breakpoint with grief zerker
if my suggested smiter build is the worst possible vs barbs then explain to me why i've won so many times? that includes public duels and legit/league duels
add to that, you say my suggested smiter is worst possible build and then ask for my equip? allow me to laugh real hard now
and did i ever say lifetap was fair? to me they're both unfair
smiters having foh as backup? absorb and kill? :s
*edit*
you were right about the fhr though, its been so long that i forgot i didnt need much lol
morotsjos
08-11-2006, 13:56
i took a break of almost a year and i even killed barbs without having the huge dmg boost of grief, besides that, zerker does not blow and its incredibly easy hitting last breakpoint with grief zerker
if my suggested smiter build is the worst possible vs barbs then explain to me why i've won so many times? that includes public duels and legit/league duels
add to that, you say my suggested smiter is worst possible build and then ask for my equip? allow me to laugh real hard now
and did i ever say lifetap was fair? to me they're both unfair
smiters having foh as backup? absorb and kill? :s
*edit*
you were right about the fhr though, its been so long that i forgot i didnt need much lol
as i suspected you obviously never dueled anyone half-decent. we both know that the reason you dont post your choice of armor is because it's horrible compared to enigma. dont pretend you can catch charging pallies without tele btw. i was even right about the one-year break, just get over that you dont have a clue of what you're talking about.
morotsjos, how about non-lt (he isn't using exile or lt doesn't trigger) tele smiter vs bvc? Is that annoying curse only way for smiter to win?
morotsjos
08-11-2006, 14:09
morotsjos, how about non-lt (he isn't using exile or lt doesn't trigger) tele smiter vs bvc? Is that annoying curse only way for smiter to win?
of course not, but without exile telesmite is much more forgiving for the barb (no tap and way less def). just forces the smiter to play better.
as i suspected you obviously never dueled anyone half-decent. we both know that the reason you dont post your choice of armor is because it's horrible compared to enigma. dont pretend you can catch charging pallies without tele btw. i was even right about the one-year break, just get over that you dont have a clue of what you're talking about.if you're going to respond with an attitude like that i'm not going to bother, have fun thinking only your way works
if you're going to respond with an attitude like that i'm not going to bother, have fun thinking only your way works
why would be nigma stupid to use?
did/do u use fort? lolz
Tbh I don't see myself ever losing to a non lt smiter as a bvc.
Dahmer die a slow and horrible death please.
morotsjos
08-11-2006, 15:06
if you're going to respond with an attitude like that i'm not going to bother, have fun thinking only your way works
sorry but you're in no position to complain considering the attitude and ignorance you've shown since your first post. fact is that my "way" works and your "way" is worthless vs anyone good.
sorry but you're in no position to complain considering the attitude and ignorance you've shown since your first post. fact is that my "way" works and your "way" is worthless vs anyone good.and thats exactly the reason why i can complain, you're now saying i'm ignorant and there's something wrong with my attitude while you're the one saying my build will not work without even knowing my build...
*edit*
this is also my last post on this subject since a reply like "die a horrible death" just shows how stubborn certain people are, you could've shown me a reason why you'll never loose but instead you tell me to die.....very nice, thank you
morotsjos
08-11-2006, 16:11
and thats exactly the reason why i can complain, you're now saying i'm ignorant and there's something wrong with my attitude while you're the one saying my build will not work without even knowing my build...
*edit*
this is also my last post on this subject since a reply like "die a horrible death" just shows how stubborn certain people are, you could've shown me a reason why you'll never loose but instead you tell me to die.....very nice, thank you
get a grip. your posts stink of the same ****ty attitude you blame others for. difference is that you are completely clueless while i make perfect sense. personally i dont care about theories from someone who haven't played for a year and believe that 2.5k life smiters with pathetic defense (oh wait maybe you use 5k def stone rofl), slow-*** smite, no tap and no tele can beat non-retarded barbs ("riiiiiiiiight"), but others might find it helpful to know that you are dead wrong.
zealots are nothing compared to smiters, mostly because noone make anti-barb zealots.
any random smiter with enigma can beat 95% of barbs in 20 seconds, assuming equal skill/gear smiter will nearly always win any series of duels. smiters control the game since they can charge, desynch, slow+holy freeze, telesmite, widow-hit-and-run and medi at will. the reason nearly noone bothers with that is because they find barbs easy enough anyway.
decked out smiters with 5k+ life, 50k+ def, dracs+exile, grief pb and some stacked ias wont lose if they decide not to.
But, if the Barb uses arach + cleg gloves + blackhorns face the smiter doesn't stand a chance right? (since we are talking BM if lifetap is involved). Since ww won't be slowed by slow correct? but a smiter would have to stack ias to avoid 50% slowing him extremely.
But, if the Barb uses arach + cleg gloves + blackhorns face the smiter doesn't stand a chance right? (since we are talking BM if lifetap is involved). Since ww won't be slowed by slow correct? but a smiter would have to stack ias to avoid 50% slowing him extremely.
That's why he said Grief PB and not BA. Stacking enough IAS with PB isn't a problem.
That's why he said Grief PB and not BA. Stacking enough IAS with PB isn't a problem.
is that how slows target works? like, the smiter needs to stack 50% more ias to maintain 6 fpa if hit by 50% slows target? seems like it would frustrate the smiter a bit to try stacking that much.
morotsjos
08-11-2006, 21:39
But, if the Barb uses arach + cleg gloves + blackhorns face the smiter doesn't stand a chance right? (since we are talking BM if lifetap is involved). Since ww won't be slowed by slow correct? but a smiter would have to stack ias to avoid 50% slowing him extremely.
even with that slow+holy freeze from doom they can get smites off, especially considering how immobile barbs are when holy freezed+slowed. ww attack speed isn't slowed, but moving speed is, which gives him more time to telesmite you and causes ww-in-place more frequently (which is autodeath vs telesmite btw).
morotsjos
08-11-2006, 21:41
is that how slows target works? like, the smiter needs to stack 50% more ias to maintain 6 fpa if hit by 50% slows target? seems like it would frustrate the smiter a bit to try stacking that much.
no, then it would be easy to counter slow. stacking ias helps somewhat but not enough. the 30 extra base speed on pb compared to ba on the other hand is a huge help.
no, then it would be easy to counter slow. stacking ias helps somewhat but not enough. the 30 extra base speed on pb compared to ba on the other hand is a huge help.
Hm I thought a slow moving barb would have more hit checks, being that slow doesn't affect ww speed, while a smiter would be at like 11 fpa?
has it ever been documented that slow/holy freeze effects fhr/fbr? because if so, a smite that slow would have many times when he would be interruptable, thus fhr/fbr lock by 4 fpa ww with lots of hit checks due to slow velocity.
The second part of your post didn't make sense but are you trying to say that smite is interruptable? It isn't.
Whirlwind with 2 weapons works at 2fpa not 4.
The second part of your post didn't make sense but are you trying to say that smite is interruptable? It isn't.
Whirlwind with 2 weapons works at 2fpa not 4.
not interruptable while in animation, but can be interrupted between smites, even with the trigger finger held on the mouse.
If that's true then 1 frame baster fbr with gris shield shael shael eld would make a difference against a ww barb?
morotsjos
09-11-2006, 15:16
not interruptable while in animation, but can be interrupted between smites, even with the trigger finger held on the mouse.
that is most likely due to lag. you can smite/zeal and charge out even if you've been stunlocked by for example mb+traps.
morotsjos
09-11-2006, 15:17
If that's true then 1 frame baster fbr with gris shield shael shael eld would make a difference against a ww barb?
it still wouldn't be nowhere near worth sacrificing the mods on exile for 1 frame fbr. and in practice it makes no difference whatsoever.
Well yes it's definately inferior to exile but does the same go for zaka?
morotsjos
09-11-2006, 22:04
Well yes it's definately inferior to exile but does the same go for zaka?
i guarantee it does. dont bother with fbr.
mainaman
10-11-2006, 16:23
I've never seen a smiter with widow, ever.i have one, he shoots at 9 fpa its sexy
i have to admit i started playing him recently, but ill learn him soon enough and will see if he can beat good bvc constantly. He is at 75 fcr, 50 dr, 4.5k life (ladder...) still looking for ar/ed sacred targe exile , need to up his boots and he'll be at ~30k def.
so far with the lame telesmiting abilities i have, i was able to get kills on some of the better BvC's on my realm.
and thats exactly the reason why i can complain, you're now saying i'm ignorant and there's something wrong with my attitude while you're the one saying my build will not work without even knowing my build...
*edit*
this is also my last post on this subject since a reply like "die a horrible death" just shows how stubborn certain people are, you could've shown me a reason why you'll never loose but instead you tell me to die.....very nice, thank you
oh please... you really have no idea on pvp, non-tele smiter are way easier to beat. i don't think you duel any half decent bvc if you can win without the damage boost from grief. (even with grief it's still hard to beat a decent bvc with your setup). the only time people post a problem to a half decent bvc is when they flash holy freeze to slow the ww and make use of tele smite.
regarding your comment foh as a backup being useless, it's called a vt (and we KNOW it is a fact that it is very strong in a 1 vs 1 duel). Please get your information right before you make such silly comments.
Mainaman, i made a test smiter with widow and i though that using widow um with highlord and lava gount gloves was a pretty good idea, that way you get 6 frame guided if i'm not mistaken.
Von Lazuli
11-11-2006, 01:56
6... That is insane.
However by my calcs, the fastest you can shoot is 9 frames (32IAS and lvl 25 Fanat).
Laz
Yup, i was wrong, checked again 9 frame guided. :D
The top ramen
13-11-2006, 05:15
well srry but i didnt have time to look through the 7 pages but ww > smiters ne kind. u just gotta know how close to let em get to u b4 u ww away. also if there down in life and they decide to shift smite. just tele behind them and ww away. unless they have godly reflexes they wont be able to turn their attack around in time.
mainaman
13-11-2006, 17:32
Mainaman, i made a test smiter with widow and i though that using widow um with highlord and lava gount gloves was a pretty good idea, that way you get 6 frame guided if i'm not mistaken.
no no lavagouts use 20 ias /10 cb glove, with umed widow, highlord, 9 fpa is max you can get .
thats tricky though , for now i use it to mess arrownd in pubs till i get better with it. It might be fun to use 20 ias /knockback glove with it, but Ihavent tryed yet
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