View Full Version : How to use frenzy?
caucasion
30-10-2006, 01:36
I just started using frenzy, coming from an old school ww play. The issue is im not sure how to use frenzy. Right now i have double swing (lvl6) on my left click and frenzy (currently 1pt) on my right click. do i use frenzy then doubleswing or just use frenzy over and over?
GreyGhost
30-10-2006, 02:17
Note that double swing does not increase damage, only attack rating. If you switch to frenzy, you will lose the attack rating bonus but gain extra frenzy damage.
IMO frenzy is the better skill. Double swing is effective if you're out of mana and need to keep swinging to cast lifetap or something.
I keep frenzy as my left-click skill, then switch my right between other skills I like to use (teleport, berzerk, leap, find item, warcries, etc.) I never use double swing.
I just started using frenzy, coming from an old school ww play. The issue is im not sure how to use frenzy. Right now i have double swing (lvl6) on my left click and frenzy (currently 1pt) on my right click. do i use frenzy then doubleswing or just use frenzy over and over?
The simpliest/safest way to use Frenzy is War Cry and hack your emenies to death.
You don't have to max War Cry, with +skill gears, level 16+ War Cry will be ok. With War Cry, you also rule in Chaos Sanctuary.
Before you have enough ias to reach the last or 2nd last speed breakpoint of Frenzy, you may want to use double swing. The key is to have a lot of crushing blow, and prohaps an Atma's Scarab. Use frenzy only to gain speed bonus, then switch to double swing for killing (warcry, frenzy 2-4 hits, then ds some seconds, then repeat). Ignore target defense weapons will do wonder.
You can focus on battle order/weapon mastery/frenzy first, before further bumping up double swing/taunt.
Before you find a decend indestructable weapon, you'll have to go back to town to repair weapons frequently though.
caucasion
30-10-2006, 03:30
The simpliest/safest way to use Frenzy is War Cry and hack your emenies to death.
You don't have to max War Cry, with +skill gears, level 16+ War Cry will be ok. With War Cry, you also rule in Chaos Sanctuary.
Before you have enough ias to reach the last or 2nd last speed breakpoint of Frenzy, you may want to use double swing. The key is to have a lot of crushing blow, and prohaps an Atma's Scarab. Use frenzy only to gain speed bonus, then switch to double swing for killing (warcry, frenzy 2-4 hits, then ds some seconds, then repeat). Ignore target defense weapons will do wonder.
You can focus on battle order/weapon mastery/frenzy first, before further bumping up double swing/taunt.
Before you find a decend indestructable weapon, you'll have to go back to town to repair weapons frequently though.
i noticed i had to repair already. i was actually surprised that i held my own vs mephiesto as well as i did.
when is frenzys break point to be the same speed as double swing
GreyGhost
30-10-2006, 03:47
Frenzy needs massive IAS to match double swing. With about 80% IAS you will hit 5.5 fps. That means 40% on weapon, laying of hands (20%) and highlords (20%).
Frenzy will do well with leeching attacks to keep you from dying.
caucasion
30-10-2006, 03:50
Frenzy needs massive IAS to match double swing. With about 80% IAS you will hit 5.5 fps. That means 40% on weapon, laying of hands (20%) and highlords (20%).
Frenzy will do well with leeching attacks to keep you from dying.
check ur pm
i noticed i had to repair already. i was actually surprised that i held my own vs mephiesto as well as i did.
when is frenzys break point to be the same speed as double swing
Double Swing will always be faster than Frenzy, because it adds a set value to speed ON TOP OF whatever else you may have (for some reason, I keep thinking DS has 40% ias built-in, but I could be wrong). Even if you charge up a slvl 40 Frenzy (47% IAS), if you then switched to Double Swing you'd get DS's built-in IAS on top of Frenzy's, taking you up even faster still.
Unless you max out your attack speed, you'll always Double Swing faster than you Frenzy. It's also cheaper, mana-wise, but Frenzy adds the run/walk boost and a bigger ED bonus.
Keep frenzy on you right click, and just hold down the right mouse button. Make sure NOT to target any monsters. That way you'll just run around and automatically attack everything. Bind warcry to a key, and if you run into a tough spot, just switch to it without releasing the right mouse button, then switch back. That way everything around you gets stunned real quick, and you barely stop attacking to do it.
You can also use taunt vs ranged attackers the same way - say you're in the middle of a pack, and some archers start shooting at you. You can switch to warcry, stun the pack you're in, switch to taunt, get all the archers to come over, and switch back to frenzy, all without letting up the right mouse button. Yeah, you can't see the monster's life bars, that's the only real downside.
Double swing is fast, but frenzy has a nice damage bonus and imo it's not worth the time to switch to double swing after frenzying up. The only times it *may* be worth it (but not requried, really) is if you're looking to apply some CB really fast, or if you're out of mana. At level 9, double swing doesn't use mana so it may be convenient to use around ghost packs.
I found, however, that even with no mana leech (low grief main hand, azurewrath offhand) I could frenzy without any danger of running out of mana. When ghosts showed up, most of the time I wouldn't need to switch, either.
Btw, I highly recommend getting some source of damage to mana - for example, I was using angelics (20% on the ammy), and it helped me warcry pretty much without any concern for the mana cost. It works out nicely - if you're swarmed and getting hit - which is when you need to warcry - you're almost guaranteed to have the mana for it. I really missed the angelics after I switched to highlords + dual ravens, not for the AR but for the dtm...
I cannot agree with you, DSwing IS worthy!
Damage over time is more important than damage per hit.
6fpa Frenzy delivers 20% less hits over time than 5fpa DSwing, so if you have a lot of ed%, then until you get decent levels, Frenzy CANNOT beat DSwing in damage output or CB.
I cannot agree with you, DSwing IS worthy!
Damage over time is more important than damage per hit.
6fpa Frenzy delivers 20% less hits over time than 5fpa DSwing, so if you have a lot of ed%, then until you get decent levels, Frenzy CANNOT beat DSwing in damage output or CB.
For 20 Poimts in Skill and 20 Points in synergy:
Double Swing: 200%ED, 110%AR
Frenzy: 345%ED, 233%AR
For MAX Damage (ignoring +skills):
Double Swing: 200%ED, 110%AR
Frenzy: 505%ED, 233%AR, 20% Magic Damage ('course you ahve to sacrafice some Shout for this one.)
Sure you should pump points in DS either way for the Frenzy synergy but obviously it will quite quickly do less damage than frenzy - particulary since the AR for DS is about half that of Frenzy.
But unless you're making some LLD char (in which case frenzy is kinda out due to level requirement) then going for a high damage DS until you can get a high damage Frenzy is nuts as you are burning synergy points as Bash does not help Frenzy.
For 20 Poimts in Skill and 20 Points in synergy:
Double Swing: 200%ED, 110%AR
Frenzy: 345%ED, 233%AR
For MAX Damage (ignoring +skills):
Double Swing: 200%ED, 110%AR
Frenzy: 505%ED, 233%AR, 20% Magic Damage ('course you ahve to sacrafice some Shout for this one.)
Sure you should pump points in DS either way for the Frenzy synergy but obviously it will quite quickly do less damage than frenzy - particulary since the AR for DS is about half that of Frenzy.
But unless you're making some LLD char (in which case frenzy is kinda out due to level requirement) then going for a high damage DS until you can get a high damage Frenzy is nuts as you are burning synergy points as Bash does not help Frenzy.
You forgot a few things.
First off, if I only have ~40 points to spend, I'm not investing 20 in Bash and 20 in Double Swing, I'm investing 20 points into Bash, 1 point into Double Swing, and 20 points into Battle Cry. Let's compare that to a 40 point Frenzy.
20Bash/1DS/20BC- 200% ED, 2 mana per swing, effective +858% AR (i.e. with 100 base AR, you'll hit like you had 958 base AR). Oh, and -44% enemy damage, and a faster attack with no need to charge up.
20Frenzy/20BC- 198% ED, 3 mana per swing, effective +2675% AR (i.e. with 100 base AR, you'll hit like you had 2775 base AR). Oh, and -44% enemy defense, and 47-171% FR/W.
20Frenzy/20DS- 345% ED, 3 mana per swing, effective +233% AR (i.e. with 100 base AR, you'll hit like you had 333 base AR), and 47-161% FR/W.
The DoubleSwing/BattleCry rig clearly outpaces the Frenzy/BattleCry rig here, with the same skill point investment (actually, 2 fewer points invested), less mana per swing, more damage per swing, sufficient AR to hit 90+% of the time in Hell, and a faster attack with no charge up. All Frenzy offers it he faster run/walk, which is as much a nuisance as it is a help. Both rigs wind up blowing the Frenzy/DS rig out of the water, because while it has more ED, it has much lower AR, more mana requirements, and a slower attack (that has to be charged up, to boot). And when you consider that you can charge Frenzy and then switch to DS, DS begins to really blow Frenzy's attack speed out of the water.
Also, if I want to synergize Double Swing, there's absolutely positively NO WAY that I'm investing in DS itself (after I hit slvl 9 with +skills). I'm putting points in Weapon Mastery, so if I want a 60 point DS, I'll do 20 Bash, 20 Battle Cry, 20 Weapon Mastery. Let's compare THAT to a 60-point Frenzy rig with 1 in WM, shall we?
20Bash/20BC/20WM- 412% ED (factoring in the Deadly Strike percentage from Mastery), 2358% effective AR, -44% monster damage, 2 mana per.
20Frenzy/20DS/20Taunt- 552% ED (factoring in Deadly Strike percentage from mastery), 261% AR, 3 mana per.
Once again, Double Swing comes close in terms of damage output, blows Frenzy out of the water in terms of AR and speed, and is cheaper, while Frenzy offers faster run/walk and that's it. And remember, if you charge up Frenzy and then double swing, it becomes even faster still, and if you get Double Swing to slvl 9, it no longer costs *ANY* mana, which makes you mana-burn proof.
If you spend the exact same number of skill points INTELLIGENTLY synergizing both Frenzy and Double Swing (meaning synergizing DS with Bash, Weapon Mastery, and Battle Cry, while keeping Double Swing's level at slvl 9 or below, as well as synergizing Frenzy with slvl 1 Mastery, damage synergies, and possibly Battle Cry as well), then both Double Swing and Frenzy will actually be very comparable in terms of damage output per second, while Double Swing gets a huge bonus in the ease-of-use department, as well as another boost when you factor in supplemental damage (such as Open Wounds, Crushing Blow, or elemental damage from charms or gear).
The only time Frenzy is superior to Double Swing is if you spend 80+ points on it (20 on Frenzy, 20 on DS, 20 on Taunt, 20 on Battle Cry, 1 in Mastery). And that's only because Double Swing eventually runs out of synergies before Frenzy does. Point-for-point, though, Double Swing keeps pace and actually frequently outshines Frenzy.
Edit: If anyone wants, I could actually crunch some actual real-life numbers comparing the maximum damage outputs of various Double Swing and Frenzy builds by number of skill points spent. Perhaps that would better illustrate my point.
GreyGhost
01-11-2006, 21:15
No offense, but that seems way off-base. DS comes nowhere near Frenzy in terms of damage and attack rating. They are not "comparable" as you say. 1000 points in base damage makes a big difference. The only advantage to DS is that it doens't require synergy and that it swings with no mana.
DS is meant to be a supplemental skill to frenzy. In order to make it stronger than frenzy, you have to boost a bunch of other skills (WC, Bash, etc) to make it even rearly as effective. Saying DS is better than Frenzy is like saying that Ice Bolt is better than Frozen Orb, or Max Teeth is the best Bone skill, or Ice Blast is better Tornado.
A good analysis SSoG, but I think that while mathematically it seems sound, it's a little bit contrived. The "effective" AR numbers you provide assume that everything is constantly BC'ed, which is a considerable nuisance to do in practice, especially with certain monster types that don't all converge on you (for example imps, archers, etc). Also, BC'ing isn't "free" - it takes time that you could in fact use to kill. How long it takes is also dependent on FCR... which is yet another factor.
Also, with reasonable gear, you can easily get AR high enough (without using angelics) that you're not very concerned about reducing enemy defense. So, the 800% "effective" AR is pretty much overkill. BC is pretty much a boss skill or "I'm in an area that's too tough for me" skill. I haven't found it to be worth the time investment during for example MF runs. Also, if you go with DS as the main skill, you're pretty much forced to BC most everything (or accept a ~70% hit rate) since your base attack rating with the skill will not be very high.
Let's compare that to a 40 point Frenzy.
20Bash/1DS/20BC- 200% ED, 2 mana per swing, effective +858% AR (i.e. with 100 base AR, you'll hit like you had 958 base AR). Oh, and -44% enemy damage, and a faster attack with no need to charge up.
20Frenzy/20BC- 198% ED, 3 mana per swing, effective +2675% AR (i.e. with 100 base AR, you'll hit like you had 2775 base AR). Oh, and -44% enemy defense, and 47-171% FR/W.
20Frenzy/20DS- 345% ED, 3 mana per swing, effective +233% AR (i.e. with 100 base AR, you'll hit like you had 333 base AR), and 47-161% FR/W.
The DoubleSwing/BattleCry rig clearly outpaces the Frenzy/BattleCry rig here, with the same skill point investment (actually, 2 fewer points invested), less mana per swing, more damage per swing, sufficient AR to hit 90+% of the time in Hell, and a faster attack with no charge up. All Frenzy offers it he faster run/walk, which is as much a nuisance as it is a help. Both rigs wind up blowing the Frenzy/DS rig out of the water, because while it has more ED, it has much lower AR, more mana requirements, and a slower attack (that has to be charged up, to boot). And when you consider that you can charge Frenzy and then switch to DS, DS begins to really blow Frenzy's attack speed out of the water.
That's what I mean - with half respectable gear (NOT "uber"), the third setup will have plenty enough AR to hit and has roughly 75% more overall damage than the other 2. Also, you will have a lower-level BC, since it's a pre-req to WC which you should be getting anyway. At level 1, BC reduces defense by 50%, so by your calclulations that would give the 3rd setup ~500% "effective" AR - which I contend wouldn't really be needed anyway.
Also, if I want to synergize Double Swing, there's absolutely positively NO WAY that I'm investing in DS itself (after I hit slvl 9 with +skills). I'm putting points in Weapon Mastery, so if I want a 60 point DS, I'll do 20 Bash, 20 Battle Cry, 20 Weapon Mastery. Let's compare THAT to a 60-point Frenzy rig with 1 in WM, shall we?
Fair enough... though I still think maxing BC is overkill. 1 point gets -50% defense, 20 points get -88%. 1pt wonder imo, unless you really cared about the -damage. More on 60 pt Frenzy below...
20Bash/20BC/20WM- 412% ED (factoring in the Deadly Strike percentage from Mastery), 2358% effective AR, -44% monster damage, 2 mana per.
20Frenzy/20DS/20Taunt- 552% ED (factoring in Deadly Strike percentage from mastery), 261% AR, 3 mana per.
Huh? The calculation for 412% ed with DS is correct. But there is no way you'd want to do 20/20/20 frenzy/DS/taunt. You'd do 20WM instead of taunt or DS (or rather 10 taunt 10 DS 20WM, but that's irrelevant). Even though the WM gives a lower% ed per point, it gives critical strike, resulting in the following:
20 frenzy = 185%, 20 synergy = 160%, 20 mast = 123% and 21% crit. So, you have 468% pure ed per hit. Each hit does 568% listed weapon damage, before crit. With crit, it's 568% * 1.21 = 687% avg damage, or 587% ed. And, we're looking at 413% AR, not 261%.
I would say that 412% vs 587% is quite a significant difference. Again, if you want to factor in BC, then you should factor in a lvl 1 BC for frenzy, which will even things out a lot more in that department. And with frenzy, you can easily not use BC while with DS you really need it.
And remember, if you charge up Frenzy and then double swing, it becomes even faster still, and if you get Double Swing to slvl 9, it no longer costs *ANY* mana, which makes you mana-burn proof.
Bad idea, imo. If you charge up frenzy, that's I think 3 full frenzy cycles before it's at max speed. Meaning, unless it's synergized, you're wasting time charging it. Not to mention wasting skillpoints trying to synergize both.
As I said, from personal experience, mana burn did not affect my frenzy adversely most of the time, even though I had ZERO leech, and no dtm. A bit of leech or dtm probably would eliminate it as a problem altogether.
If you spend the exact same number of skill points INTELLIGENTLY synergizing both Frenzy and Double Swing (meaning synergizing DS with Bash, Weapon Mastery, and Battle Cry, while keeping Double Swing's level at slvl 9 or below, as well as synergizing Frenzy with slvl 1 Mastery, damage synergies, and possibly Battle Cry as well), then both Double Swing and Frenzy will actually be very comparable in terms of damage output per second, while Double Swing gets a huge bonus in the ease-of-use department, as well as another boost when you factor in supplemental damage (such as Open Wounds, Crushing Blow, or elemental damage from charms or gear).
What's the exact build you're proposing here? I have a hard time seeing both synergized to a reasonable level AND having level 20 BO and having a couple points left over for WC.
Ease of use wise, I acknowledge that ymmv, but I haven't found frenzy's FRW to be anything but convenient. If I had it on left click, I'd want to pull my hair out, but on right click... especially with an act 1 vigor merc... let's just say those 20 imps never know what hit 'em :)
Sorry for a bit of a long post. Ultimately, what you're saying makes sense, and having read it I think you could make a very good DS-based build. It is a skill that I've perhaps underestimated, and I agree that it's the way to go if you want to, for example, apply CB to a boss which is most likely going to be BC'ed anyway. But overall, between the FRW and the higher damage, and the lack of a need for BC on anything and everything to hit it, I think frenzy still wins handily as a general-use pvm skill.
GreyGhost
01-11-2006, 22:18
@AVM: Excellent response. This is all the stuff I wanted to say but didn't have the patience to type.
@AVM: Excellent response. This is all the stuff I wanted to say but didn't have the patience to type.
Thanks. I didn't expect it was going to be so long when I started typing it, or I probably wouldn't have done it :P
One other thing I just thought of, which didn't occur to me earlier. As a pvm barb, you're probably looking at a fair bit of +skills - 3 torch, 2(4 combat) from arreats, maybe a couple more from a weapon/anni/etc. Adding those points to DS or Bash doesn't help much. Adding them to frenzy does. In other words, +skill gives more of a damage boost to a Frenzy build than it does to a DS build.
No offense, but that seems way off-base. DS comes nowhere near Frenzy in terms of damage and attack rating. They are not "comparable" as you say. 1000 points in base damage makes a big difference. The only advantage to DS is that it doens't require synergy and that it swings with no mana.
DS is meant to be a supplemental skill to frenzy. In order to make it stronger than frenzy, you have to boost a bunch of other skills (WC, Bash, etc) to make it even rearly as effective. Saying DS is better than Frenzy is like saying that Ice Bolt is better than Frozen Orb, or Max Teeth is the best Bone skill, or Ice Blast is better Tornado.
Did you not read that post? Whether the numbers SEEM off-base or not, they're correct. Every single damage value I posted is exactly correct.
Frenzy might *SEEM* like a better killer, but the reality is that Double Swing is easily its equal. Both have things that they do better than the other, but if you think that Frenzy blows DS out of the water, you're mistaken.
A good analysis SSoG, but I think that while mathematically it seems sound, it's a little bit contrived. The "effective" AR numbers you provide assume that everything is constantly BC'ed, which is a considerable nuisance to do in practice, especially with certain monster types that don't all converge on you (for example imps, archers, etc). Also, BC'ing isn't "free" - it takes time that you could in fact use to kill. How long it takes is also dependent on FCR... which is yet another factor.
Very good points, although it has balances. Yes, it takes time to cast BC, but I'd argue no more time than it takes to charge up Frenzy. You're absolutely right, though, that Double Swing barbs find pesky critters like Imps and Archers far more annoying than Frenzy Barbs do. Of course, there's a balance- Double Swing Barbs chew up bosses faster thanks to the greater -% enemy defense, combined with the faster attack speed (meaning a lot more crushing blows per second).
That's what I mean - with half respectable gear (NOT "uber"), the third setup will have plenty enough AR to hit and has roughly 75% more overall damage than the other 2. Also, you will have a lower-level BC, since it's a pre-req to WC which you should be getting anyway. At level 1, BC reduces defense by 50%, so by your calclulations that would give the 3rd setup ~500% "effective" AR - which I contend wouldn't really be needed anyway.
Well, if you want to argue that +233% AR on the second rig is sufficient, that's fine... I'll take 19 of those points out of Battle Cry and pop them into Weapon Mastery, instead. Compare that third Frenzy rig with 1 point in Weapon Mastery to a Double Swing rig with 20 points in Weapon Mastery. I emphasised AR in that 40-point DS, but if you'd rather, you could just as easily emphasise damage and still come out ahead.
20 in Bash, 20 in Weapon Mastery, 1 in Double Swing = 412% effective ED (once you factor in the Critical Strike), 195% AR.
20 points in Double Swing, 20 in Frenzy, 1 in Weapon Mastery = 387% effective ED (once you factor in the Critical Strike), +233% AR.
Again, no matter what your priorities are, there is always a way for Double Swing to perform just as well as Frenzy does against them. As you can see in this example, it's possible for a 40 point DS to actually deal *MORE* damage than Frenzy (and at a higher speed, to boot).
Fair enough... though I still think maxing BC is overkill. 1 point gets -50% defense, 20 points get -88%. 1pt wonder imo, unless you really cared about the -damage. More on 60 pt Frenzy below...
The -damage is significant. Also, while it's possible to get a good chance to hit with a slvl1 Battle Cry, slvl20 lets you get a BETTER chance to hit, and doesn't require any gear- so you can ditch that Angelics and all those AR charms that you'd otherwise have to wear. That makes room in your inventory for other charms.
Huh? The calculation for 412% ed with DS is correct. But there is no way you'd want to do 20/20/20 frenzy/DS/taunt. You'd do 20WM instead of taunt or DS (or rather 10 taunt 10 DS 20WM, but that's irrelevant). Even though the WM gives a lower% ed per point, it gives critical strike, resulting in the following:
20 frenzy = 185%, 20 synergy = 160%, 20 mast = 123% and 21% crit. So, you have 468% pure ed per hit. Each hit does 568% listed weapon damage, before crit. With crit, it's 568% * 1.21 = 687% avg damage, or 587% ed. And, we're looking at 413% AR, not 261%.
I would say that 412% vs 587% is quite a significant difference. Again, if you want to factor in BC, then you should factor in a lvl 1 BC for frenzy, which will even things out a lot more in that department. And with frenzy, you can easily not use BC while with DS you really need it.
Another solid point, and this one emphasizes the real weakness of Double Swing compared to Frenzy- eventually you run out of ways to invest your skill points to increase its damage. However, it should be noted that while 412% ED vs. 587% ED is a significant difference, there's the speed disparity, too. If you deal 100 base damage with 412% ED at 5 fpa, that's 2560 damage per second. If you deal 100 base damage with 587% ED at 6 fpa, that's 2863 damage per second. Not that large of a disparity, after all. Additional sources of off-weapon ED (of which you'll have PLENTY, ranging from Might Mercs to simple stat-point investments to +% damage to undead/demons to potentially Fortitude or other off-weapon sources of gear-based ED) will only skew that comparison in favor of Double Swing. Crushing Blow and elemental damage will also further skew the comparison. And a Double Swing Barb is more than capable of getting 1, or even TWO frames faster than a Frenzy Barb- for instance, wielding 10-speed Axes and with a slvl 20 Frenzy, 25% IAS will get a Barb to a 7fpa with Frenzy and 5fpa with Double Swing. The damage comparison in THAT case will be even less flattering still.
What's the exact build you're proposing here? I have a hard time seeing both synergized to a reasonable level AND having level 20 BO and having a couple points left over for WC.
That wasn't all on one build- I was comparing a 60-point Frenzy build to a 60-point Double Swing build. Two different builds.
GreyGhost
03-11-2006, 04:42
Your initial calculations were not correct, as avm pointed out. You didn't consider deadly/critical and other mods that affect damage. Besides the required build to use DS would be completely wack -- topheavy on skills required to boost DS's basic damage.
Creating a build centered around DS is less balanced and less powerful than a basic frenzy barb. I'm not saying frenzy blows it out of the water, but you admit yourself that the damage is less, albeit "comparable" (which it is not). DS is useful only in certain specific situations, not as a primary attack. The only way I could see this being the main skill is if you were playing untwinked and wanted to max DS first.
Perhaps the reason you think DS is stronger is that your calcuations are incorrect. Damage is not calculated the same way for each skill, even if they are both melee.
Your initial calculations were not correct, as avm pointed out. You didn't consider deadly/critical and other mods that affect damage.
The calculations in the first post absolutely *WERE* correct. Point out what calculation is wrong and explain why it's wrong. The numbers are absolutely, positively, 100% right. They've been triple-checked. Avm didn't say that my numbers were incorrect, he simply responded with other numbers for me to consider- at which point I presented even more numbers for him to consider, in turn.
He wanted me to also consider Frenzy with maxed Weapon Mastery, a different setup than I used in my first post. I *did* consider those numbers, and in turn presented him with attack speed figures for HIM to consider. I computed some basic damage-per-second numbers in a frenzy-favoring situation (no stat-based or gear-based off-weapon ED), and showed that the Double Swing numbers were within 12%- and remember, this is with a Frenzy-friendly environment. I then discussed how putting those numbers in an environment that was equally suited for both DS *and* Frenzy (or better still, in a DS-friendly environment) would actually skew those damage output numbers in favor of Double Swing.
If you think my numbers are incorrect anywhere, then please feel free to point out where and I'll walk you through them to demonstrate that they are, in fact, correct. The only errors that may exist are rounding errors because I was simply too lazy to truncate my values after every step. That sort of rounding error wouldn't account for a more than 1% swing in the numbers one way or the other, but if you're absolutely convinced that my numbers are wrong, I could walk you through them step by step using the appropriate rounding values.
Besides the required build to use DS would be completely wack -- topheavy on skills required to boost DS's basic damage.
Yes, it would be topheavy on skills required to boost DS's basic damage. SO WOULD A FRENZY BUILD. Why do Frenzy builds invest in Taunt? Simply to boost Frenzy's damage. Why do Frenzy Builds invest in DS? Simply to boost Frenzy's damage. If anything, I would say that a DS build has *FEWER* skills that serve no purpose but to boost damage than a Frenzy build does, because Frenzy has two synergies to DS's one. So if DS is topheavy on skills to boost its basic damage, then Frenzy is even MORE topheavy. Basically, your main criticism of DS here is actually an even bigger criticism of Frenzy.
Creating a build centered around DS is less balanced and less powerful than a basic frenzy barb. I'm not saying frenzy blows it out of the water, but you admit yourself that the damage is less, albeit "comparable" (which it is not). DS is useful only in certain specific situations, not as a primary attack. The only way I could see this being the main skill is if you were playing untwinked and wanted to max DS first.
This is simply and unequivocably UNTRUE. If you "synergize" Double Swing with Battle Cry, it becomes MORE balanced than Frenzy- not only does Battle Cry boost a barb's damage output, it also reduces his damage intake, which makes him far more balanced offensively and defensively. Unless a Frenzy Barb actively uses that Taunt that he's investing so heavily in, Frenzy is far more unbalanced- focused entirely on offensive output... and if the Frenzy Barb DOES use Taunt, then he spends so much time casting that he becomes unbalanced defensively. Double Swing has less top-end damage if you're willing to sink 80 skill points into it, but it actually deals every bit as much damage with 60 skill points invested, and has more defensive balance in the process.
Also, your comment about playing untwinked and maxing DS first just shows that you aren't paying attention. I've already said that the reason most people think that DS is a weak skill is because they waste skill points maxing it. My DS Barbs always invest between 1 and 5 points in DS (depending on how many +skills I have planned), and that's it. Maxing DS is wasting 15 skill points that could have been better spent boosting its damage. A Frenzy build would suck, too, if you wasted 15 points in a skill that did absolutely, positively, no good. Put 15 points into Whirlwind and see how good of a Frenzy Barb you can make.
Perhaps the reason you think DS is stronger is that your calcuations are incorrect. Damage is not calculated the same way for each skill, even if they are both melee.
Damage isn't calculated the same way for each skill- Hunger, for instance, has a final modifier of -75% that applies to final physical damage. Strafe and Multishot both have global modifiers that apply -25% to ALL final damage. Vengeance is very particular in what it DOES and DOES NOT convert (for instance- it converts on-weapon ED, but not Damage +X). With that said, the vast majority of melee skills calculate damage exactly the same way. Frenzy and Double Swing are no different.
Final Weapon Damage = (Base Weapon Damage * On-Weapon ED) + damage modifiers (aka +min, +max damage)
Final Physical Damage = Final Weapon Damage * (1 + Stat-based ED + Skill-Based ED + off-weapon gear-based ED)
Modified Weapon Damage = Final Weapon Damage * [2 - {(1 - DS%) * (1 - CS%)}]
Final Total Damage = Modified Weapon Damage + Gear or Skill Based Elemental Damage
Damage per Second = Final Total Damage * (# of Attacks per Second) * (Chance to Hit)
That's the basic string of formulas for calculating the damage output of both Double Swing and Frenzy (I didn't indicate all the places you're supposed to truncate, but those are the simple un-rounded calculations). Same formula both times. That Damage Per Second number can be further modified by factoring in resists, but since DS and Frenzy both deal the same type of damage (physical), resists are in this case irrelevant, since they'll affect both skills equally.
It's a little bit unconventional, but I promise you, a 60-point Double Swing build will be every bit as powerful as a 60-point Frenzy build- perhaps even moreso, if you consider the benefits gained from the slvl20+ Battle Cry. *IF* you wear SUBSTANTIAL amounts of +skills gear (+10 or more), or if you invest 80 skill points into Frenzy, then its damage will outpace Double Swing's... but then again, Double Swing could always replace that +10 skills with gear-based elemental damage, Crushing Blow, Open Wounds, or Deadly Strike, and it would just as soon regain the upper hand.
Long story short... if you only want to spend 10 or so skill points outside of synergizing your main attack, then Frenzy will outshine Double Swing. If you want to spend 20+ skills outside of your main skill (on... I don't know... say Battle Orders:azn: ), then Double Swing will kill every bit as quickly as Frenzy, as long as you build it correctly (which means spending no more than 5 points in Double Swing itself). I know, you've never heard this before, this is radically new thinking, but I promise you... I've not only crunched the numbers until the cows came home, I've *BUILT* a Double Swing Barb *AND* a Frenzy Barb, and Double Swing is 100% every bit as viable as Frenzy (in fact, I consider it BETTER because it's so much easier to use). The only real difference is the lack of the Faster Run/Walk (which I always considered annoying, anyway).
Theres no way in hell DS pwns frenzy
If you have to use battle cry|taunt| whatever to increase your hits, then your build is noob.
As for the instant 5fps for DS, i get 5fps on first swing with frenzy with griefpb 38%ias and a second griefpb on off hand.
End thread
Frenzy > DS. Period.
Spoken like someone who's never played a well-built DS barb. Have you even played the type of Double Swing Barb I described? Do you see anything wrong with my numbers? How can you know what you're talking about? Question Mark.
Theres no way in hell DS pwns frenzy
If you have to use battle cry|taunt| whatever to increase your hits, then your build is noob.
As for the instant 5fps for DS, i get 5fps on first swing with frenzy with griefpb 38%ias and a second griefpb on off hand.
End thread
I would actually argue that any barb who doesn't make use of Taunt/Battle Cry is the real Noob. Those skills are there for a reason: they will greatly increase any build's power. Whenever I see a Barb come upon a pack of Fallen and the first thing he does *ISN'T* taunting the Shaman, I think to myself that that guy isn't very good at playing Barbs. Ditto that if the Barb is running around not in a party with a Necromancer and yet never bothers to Battle Cry the Act Bosses he faces.
Also, for the record, with a 38% IAS Grief PB (and another PB in the offhand), you'll actually have a 7-frame Frenzy on the first swing (actually, on the second swing, too, since it takes a full Frenzy cycle for the IAS boost to kick in.) Double Swing, on the other hand, will most certainly start with a 5-frame attack. That means that, in the time it takes a dual-grief Frenzybarb to take 6 attacks (36 frames), a Double Swing Barb will already have taken 7, and will be working on the 8th. And this is with Phase Blades, the fastest one-handed weapon in the game- switch to 40% IAS Berserkers, and suddenly Frenzy starts out at 8.5 FPA, while Double Swing fires at a cool 6 frames, even. In the time it takes a dual-BerserkerAxe Frenzy Barb to complete his first Frenzy Cycle, a Double Swinger will be almost finished with his third attack.
I never said that DS "pwned" Frenzy, just that Double Swing was every bit as good as Frenzy, and I've provided the numbers to back it up. Just because your LCS says your damage is better with Frenzy than Double Swing doesn't make it true. My LCS says that Charged Boltresses suck, too, but mine never had a problem killing anything with her "pathetic" 650 displayed damage.
Anyway, we do agree on one thing, though- this thread is pretty much over. At this point, it's just me showing how Double Swing can equal Frenzy's damage output, and everyone else just sticking their fingers in their ears and humming the ABCs.
SSoG,
It's unfortunate that people are being rude... there's really no need for that, and you do present a good argument. I suppose it comes down to personal preference. I don't like to BC everything, charging frenzy isn't something you do nearly as often, and I *love* the FRW. Yes I have 1 pt in increased speed, and wish I had more to spare.
Supposing DS can match frenzy damage (I still think frenzy will come out on top, though not by a lot, maybe 10-20% or so, if we're talking about 60 pts dedicated to damage, which I think is fair), frenzy still offers faster runs and killing speed simply though the FRW + no BC spam. If the reduced damage on a max BC offers some safety, so does the FRW... being able to easily outpace the extra fast extra strong balrog boss in CS is quite a nice perk :)
You also gain some versatility, as you mentioned, by being able to take on "annoying" monsters more easily (imps, archers - esp the rogue archers that run away, etc). Yes, you can taunt them, and it's advisable to do it when you're still developing your character and those areas are hard... but as you yourself say, taunting everything isn't very efficient timewise.
So in conclusion:
Frenzy: FRW and no need for BC, likely a bit more damage depending on other factors.
DS: slightly faster boss kills.
Depending on whether you view the FRW as a positive or a negative I suppose that can make or break your choice :)
Edit: Another consideration. I haven't played the barb in a while, but won't the BC override lifetap? Dracs make a world of difference in survivability... I could be wrong here, but thats just what I'm remembering.
yes it does overwrite lifetap, but even more importantly, they both overwrite decrepify, which is frenzys and (oh gawd i dont believe im typing this), double swings' best curse for pwnage.
yes it does overwrite lifetap, but even more importantly, they both overwrite decrepify, which is frenzys and (oh gawd i dont believe im typing this), double swings' best curse for pwnage.
Hmm.. thanks for the answer
Do you get decrep from the merc? Or from lawbringer? It wouldn't seem as though 50% more damage on main hand would make up for using a crap damage sword off hand... though it would probably rival or beat dracs for survivability... and free you up to use LoH... hmm.
sir goatscelot
03-11-2006, 21:25
I think that Spanky weapon switches after Decrip is cast to his main weapons..uses lawbringer himself until it's cast.
I have used both Ds and Frenzy and would have to conclude that point for point, they are both equal..but I personally prefer Ds, but it really is up to personal taste.
If you build them both correctly and use them wisely, it's all good for sure.
SSoG,
It's unfortunate that people are being rude... there's really no need for that, and you do present a good argument. I suppose it comes down to personal preference. I don't like to BC everything, charging frenzy isn't something you do nearly as often, and I *love* the FRW. Yes I have 1 pt in increased speed, and wish I had more to spare.
Supposing DS can match frenzy damage (I still think frenzy will come out on top, though not by a lot, maybe 10-20% or so, if we're talking about 60 pts dedicated to damage, which I think is fair), frenzy still offers faster runs and killing speed simply though the FRW + no BC spam. If the reduced damage on a max BC offers some safety, so does the FRW... being able to easily outpace the extra fast extra strong balrog boss in CS is quite a nice perk :)
You also gain some versatility, as you mentioned, by being able to take on "annoying" monsters more easily (imps, archers - esp the rogue archers that run away, etc). Yes, you can taunt them, and it's advisable to do it when you're still developing your character and those areas are hard... but as you yourself say, taunting everything isn't very efficient timewise.
So in conclusion:
Frenzy: FRW and no need for BC, likely a bit more damage depending on other factors.
DS: slightly faster boss kills.
Depending on whether you view the FRW as a positive or a negative I suppose that can make or break your choice :)
Edit: Another consideration. I haven't played the barb in a while, but won't the BC override lifetap? Dracs make a world of difference in survivability... I could be wrong here, but thats just what I'm remembering.
First thing's first- yes, Howl, Taunt, and BC are all considered curses (as is the Terror from Grim Ward), and will overwrite Necro curses, as well as the Assassin's Cloak of Shadows (which is also a curse). I never use Drac's, anyway, so it's never been a big problem for me, but if you're entirely dependent on Drac's then yes, BC will be a bad thing.
Regarding Frenzy vs. Double Swing- as you said, it basically comes down to the Faster Run/Walk and playing style. Frenzy will clear areas faster because, while it has a comparable kill-speed, it is much faster at reaching the enemies in the first place. The problem, of course, is in the 6-second timer. You can't stop to survey the loot after you kill a pack, because you have to race off to the next pack or lose your charge. Same thing with reading boss-mods- sometimes you just don't have the time, or else you'll lose your charge.
I agree that Frenzy is more convenient against imps and fallen and the like if you keep it charged. I disagree 100% that Frenzy is safer. I've had several Frenzy-related deaths because I wound up meleeing a bugged LEFE boss before I realized what he was. That's fine in Softcore, and a small price to pay for the Pinball-on-steroids effect. In fact, if I played mostly softcore I'd probably prefer Frenziers. In Hardcore, though, it's MANDATORY that you stop and read bossmods before engaging, which frequently results in you losing your charge. That's why I love DSers. They're safer, more methodical, and can take as little or as much time as they want to do stuff. There's no timer in the back of your head screaming "GO GO GO" if you want to stop, pick up, and identify that rare Avenger Guard that just dropped. And again, there's not much safer than a slvl 26 Battle Cry, which will cut all damage you receive in melee in half (which will then be further reduced by any DR% or PDR you happen to be wearing).
In short, the FR/W is really the main difference between the two builds (that and the "DS costs no mana" thing). If you love the FR/W, then make a Frenzier. If you find the FR/W annoying or impractical (let's say because you're in HC), make a Double Swinger.
Hmm.. thanks for the answer
Do you get decrep from the merc? Or from lawbringer? It wouldn't seem as though 50% more damage on main hand would make up for using a crap damage sword off hand... though it would probably rival or beat dracs for survivability... and free you up to use LoH... hmm.
Easiest place to get Decrep would be a Lawbringer merc, or possibly a Reaper's Toll Holy Freeze merc. If a HF merc triggers decrep, things basically have their speed changed from "slow" to "glacial". Lots of fun.
Thanks for the info on what's considered curses.
I agree with you 100% about HC vs SC - many times while playing my barb (who is SC) I've thought "well good thing I don't HAVE to look at the boss mods". You never know when the FE bug is going to strike...
I'd love to play HC, where safety in builds actually plays into it - more variety and fun, but I'd break something if I died due to lag... so no HC for me, my mental health is more important :(
On a side note, worst death ever for my SC barb - in chaos sanctuary, fighting a pack of OK's with berserk. Everything is great. Then, I get hit from offscreen with a manaburning bolt... as I'm in mid-berserk-swing. And the pack I was fighting decided to cast IM right then. Went from "everything is great" to "dead" in about a tenth of a second. Once again, thankful I'm SC... I'd be way too pissed otherwise.
Hey isn't it great when an argument (or debate, whatever) actually leads to agreement? :grin:
"If a HF merc triggers decrep, things basically have their speed changed from "slow" to "glacial". Lots of fun."
This is what im planing to do next for ubers, and getting my merc to survive it as well
Ditching my act 2 might merc, for act 2 Blessed Aim merc
Reason? To gain attack rating. lvl27 gives 465% to attack rating.
Its not like "OH MAN, ill losse my lvl24 might aura, since my merc would never live a uber run anyway.
Since i was using Infinity for general play (not ubers), i never needed Blessed Aim since Infinity massively reduces enemy defences. 81% at lvl12
After I ditch Infinity polearm I will equip Doom polearm to slow the mofo's down, and with decrepify on my switch weapons, everything in there will crawl, everything in there (except Mephisto) will be leechable, and my merc will leech life via Andarials helm and ebugged CoH Armor.
To be honest, id prefer to use a holyfreeze merc, and keep Infinity on him, but mephisto's conviction will over-rule my mercs, so ill loose the -defence% bonus.
Ill have it all running in a week, and ill report my experiences.
bobofuzzlymunky
04-11-2006, 01:58
i use frenzy till its all charged up then double swing. O_o
Thanks for the info on what's considered curses.
I agree with you 100% about HC vs SC - many times while playing my barb (who is SC) I've thought "well good thing I don't HAVE to look at the boss mods". You never know when the FE bug is going to strike...
I'd love to play HC, where safety in builds actually plays into it - more variety and fun, but I'd break something if I died due to lag... so no HC for me, my mental health is more important :(
On a side note, worst death ever for my SC barb - in chaos sanctuary, fighting a pack of OK's with berserk. Everything is great. Then, I get hit from offscreen with a manaburning bolt... as I'm in mid-berserk-swing. And the pack I was fighting decided to cast IM right then. Went from "everything is great" to "dead" in about a tenth of a second. Once again, thankful I'm SC... I'd be way too pissed otherwise.
Hey isn't it great when an argument (or debate, whatever) actually leads to agreement? :grin:
I've long maintained that I love getting into arguements, because you always learn more when you're arguing with someone than you do when you're agreeing with someone.
Oh, and a little tip for you. I'm assuming you steer Frenzy with right-click, right? If you run into a pack of monsters with a boss in the middle, try this sometime: Hold down Alt (or whatever button highlights treasure on the ground for you), and then move the mouse over the monsters. You'll continue attacking, but now you can highlight their names! It's a great way to read bossmods without stopping swinging with Frenzy. The two things I'd caution about is to don't even bother trying it while running around (you'll be moving too fast to aim), and make sure that you don't actually kill a monster while his name is highlighted. Killing the monster you've highlighted will cause you to stop attacking (as if you'd just namelocked him in the first place).
Also, one last thing- be sure to move your mouse off of any monsters before you release Alt. If you release Alt when a monster is highlighted, he'll be namelocked. If that happens, just hit Alt again, move the mouse off of him, and then release.
Sounds confusing, and takes a lot of practice, but after a while it becomes second nature for my really fast attackers (4-frame Hunger Bears, Frenzy Barbs, etc).
Oh, and a little tip for you. I'm assuming you steer Frenzy with right-click, right? If you run into a pack of monsters with a boss in the middle, try this sometime: Hold down Alt (or whatever button highlights treasure on the ground for you), and then move the mouse over the monsters. You'll continue attacking, but now you can highlight their names! It's a great way to read bossmods without stopping swinging with Frenzy. The two things I'd caution about is to don't even bother trying it while running around (you'll be moving too fast to aim), and make sure that you don't actually kill a monster while his name is highlighted. Killing the monster you've highlighted will cause you to stop attacking (as if you'd just namelocked him in the first place).
Also, one last thing- be sure to move your mouse off of any monsters before you release Alt. If you release Alt when a monster is highlighted, he'll be namelocked. If that happens, just hit Alt again, move the mouse off of him, and then release.
Sounds confusing, and takes a lot of practice, but after a while it becomes second nature for my really fast attackers (4-frame Hunger Bears, Frenzy Barbs, etc).
Ahhh thanks for the tip. Sounds *extremely* useful, I'll have to try it. On a slightly related note, I've noticed frenzy will stop sometimes if your mouse is over an item on the ground when you make a kill. I wonder if using /nopickup will eliminate that... hmm will have to check that out, too. Too bad my frenzy barb's gear consists of heart carver and a +warcries sword (I stripped him down a while back), guess nothing is preventing me from doing this in NM :)
Ahhh thanks for the tip. Sounds *extremely* useful, I'll have to try it. On a slightly related note, I've noticed frenzy will stop sometimes if your mouse is over an item on the ground when you make a kill. I wonder if using /nopickup will eliminate that... hmm will have to check that out, too. Too bad my frenzy barb's gear consists of heart carver and a +warcries sword (I stripped him down a while back), guess nothing is preventing me from doing this in NM :)
I never noticed that Frenzy stops if you have an item highlighted when you make a kill, but I *always* adventure with /nopickup. I guess that means you don't have to test- if I always use /nopickup, and I have no idea what you're talking about, odds are that it works.:smiley:
Cdnexpat
06-11-2006, 10:28
SSoG
I am curious enough to try one.
20 Sword Mastery
20 Bash
10 Battle Cry
20 BO
9- (+ to skills) DS (maybe 4)
Remaining Points in Shout
1 Taunt, Howl, War Cry, Find Potion, Find Item, Battle Command, Increased Stamina, Increased Speed, Iron Skin, Natural Resist,
Any gear recomendations, I was thinking:
G Face
High Lords
2x grief PB (can I use low ias ones)
Duress or Fort ?
Bloodfist or Crafted Blood gloves
N Coil
Ravenfrost and Carrion Wind
Gores
but am open to suggestions.
SSoG
I am curious enough to try one.
20 Sword Mastery
20 Bash
10 Battle Cry
20 BO
9- (+ to skills) DS (maybe 4)
Remaining Points in Shout
1 Taunt, Howl, War Cry, Find Potion, Find Item, Battle Command, Increased Stamina, Increased Speed, Iron Skin, Natural Resist,
Any gear recomendations, I was thinking:
G Face
High Lords
2x grief PB (can I use low ias ones)
Duress or Fort ?
Bloodfist or Crafted Blood gloves
N Coil
Ravenfrost and Carrion Wind
Gores
but am open to suggestions.
A couple of suggestions. First off... it's not necessary, but I like to hit slvl 26 Battle Cry after +skills. There's not a huge difference between, say, a slvl 23 and a slvl 26... but I like slvl 26 because it gives PERFECT ITD against any enemy in the game (whereas at slvl 23, enemies still have a touch of defense). Also, the -% enemy damage isn't shabby.
Speaking of the -% enemy damage on Battle Cry... it works *fantastically* with PDR. -50% enemy damage doubles the effectiveness of PDR. Get yourself an amulet of Life Everlasting (up to 25 PDR). Toss some Sols into any open sockets you might have on your armor or helm. Maybe grab some Nature's Peace rings. Duress and Fort are both good armor choices, but also consider Glad's Bane or Arkaine's. Arkaine's adds +skills, Glad's Bane adds CBF (which lets you take off your Ravenfrost), and they both add a huge chunk of PDR. PDR + Battle Cry turns you into an uber-tank (as long as you can still max your resists).
Also, with dual-phase blades, all you need is 26% IAS to max you out at 5 fpa. No need to charge up, or anything- you'll always swing at 5 fpa, no questions asked. So yes, even the worst Grief will max you out. Just for variety, you might want to consider swapping out the second Grief for an Azurewrath, though. It'll deal a lot less physical damage, but it'll really help you against PIs. The Sanctuary aura is bugged and allows you to ignore the physical resistances of all undead (so those PI wraiths go down like they had 0% physical resistance). The Sanctuary is also handy for keeping Dolls off of you, and for slowing down gloams a bit. Then there's the 375.5 average magic damage and the 375.5 average cold damage (10 second duration), which help you with non-undead PIs.
Ash Housewares
06-11-2006, 11:11
Double Swing will always be faster than Frenzy, because it adds a set value to speed ON TOP OF whatever else you may have (for some reason, I keep thinking DS has 40% ias built-in, but I could be wrong). Even if you charge up a slvl 40 Frenzy (47% IAS), if you then switched to Double Swing you'd get DS's built-in IAS on top of Frenzy's, taking you up even faster still.
Unless you max out your attack speed, you'll always Double Swing faster than you Frenzy. It's also cheaper, mana-wise, but Frenzy adds the run/walk boost and a bigger ED bonus.
both skills have the same maximum speed of 5 frames per attack, I can see no advantage to using DS unless your build is somehow broken or you are using obscenely slow weapons and your slow attack is too upsetting to watch when using frenzy
there's alot of text in this thread though, I'm not sure where exactly the most convincing part of the argument is in favor of DS if someone wants to quote or highlight it, I'd be interested to have a look though I don't have time to search it all out
both skills have the same maximum speed of 5 frames per attack, I can see no advantage to using DS unless your build is somehow broken or you are using obscenely slow weapons and your slow attack is too upsetting to watch when using frenzy
there's alot of text in this thread though, I'm not sure where exactly the most convincing part of the argument is in favor of DS if someone wants to quote or highlight it, I'd be interested to have a look though I don't have time to search it all out
Basic summary of the thread is that, for 60 skill points, the only difference between DS and Frenzy is that DS costs less mana and Frenzy adds faster run/walk.
You forgot a few things.
First off, if I only have ~40 points to spend, I'm not investing 20 in Bash and 20 in Double Swing, I'm investing 20 points into Bash, 1 point into Double Swing, and 20 points into Battle Cry. Let's compare that to a 40 point Frenzy.
I was comparing at 40 points as to compare Frenzy with DS at full synergisation is unfair as one is more points than the other.
20Bash/1DS/20BC- 200% ED, 2 mana per swing, effective +858% AR (i.e. with 100 base AR, you'll hit like you had 958 base AR). Oh, and -44% enemy damage, and a faster attack with no need to charge up.
20Frenzy/20BC- 198% ED, 3 mana per swing, effective +2675% AR (i.e. with 100 base AR, you'll hit like you had 2775 base AR). Oh, and -44% enemy defense, and 47-171% FR/W.
20Frenzy/20DS- 345% ED, 3 mana per swing, effective +233% AR (i.e. with 100 base AR, you'll hit like you had 333 base AR), and 47-161% FR/W.
The DoubleSwing/BattleCry rig clearly outpaces the Frenzy/BattleCry rig here, with the same skill point investment (actually, 2 fewer points invested), less mana per swing, more damage per swing, sufficient AR to hit 90+% of the time in Hell, and a faster attack with no charge up.
This is going on the 40 point investment only - which you seem to have read wrong. But... The frenzy does a tine fraction less damage - and over time more as you get from monster pack to monster pack more. And will have a higher hit rate.
Also, if I want to synergize Double Swing, there's absolutely positively NO WAY that I'm investing in DS itself (after I hit slvl 9 with +skills). I'm putting points in Weapon Mastery, so if I want a 60 point DS, I'll do 20 Bash, 20 Battle Cry, 20 Weapon Mastery. Let's compare THAT to a 60-point Frenzy rig with 1 in WM, shall we?
20Bash/20BC/20WM- 412% ED (factoring in the Deadly Strike percentage from Mastery), 2358% effective AR, -44% monster damage, 2 mana per.
20Frenzy/20DS/20Taunt- 552% ED (factoring in Deadly Strike percentage from mastery), 261% AR, 3 mana per.
Well - if you want to compare one well built build with one stupid one given the point limitation then sure.
Try:
20Frenzy/20DS/20Weapon mastery: 476%ED+DS at 20% -> 571%ED, 433%AR
Put a couple into BC and you start to get the effective AR if you really need it. The 50% for a single point looks like a pretty efficient way to invest the points, rather than the 20 that you suggest. You get plenty of AR from the skill itself, the weapon mastery and the 50% reduction from a single point in BC should help no end.
I am not sure the mana/hit is really an issue - you should have plenty of mana and 1%leech will return much more mana than you use. Have the occasional pots for mana burn monsters.
Well, this has definitely been a very eye-opening thread for me. I used to think that Frenzy was CLEARLY superior to DS. However, it seems they both have their advantages and disadvantages.
Anywho, I've decided to stick with Frenzy due to the higher damage. However, I do have one major question, is it worth it to sacrifice 20 points to Shout (or whatever other skill) to max out the synergies on Frenzy? 505% ed is nothing to scoff at. However, lack of Shout would be a terrible thing, indeed.
Well, this has definitely been a very eye-opening thread for me. I used to think that Frenzy was CLEARLY superior to DS. However, it seems they both have their advantages and disadvantages.
Anywho, I've decided to stick with Frenzy due to the higher damage. However, I do have one major question, is it worth it to sacrifice 20 points to Shout (or whatever other skill) to max out the synergies on Frenzy? 505% ed is nothing to scoff at. However, lack of Shout would be a terrible thing, indeed.
It's all a matter of personal preference. I've built barbs that not only sacrificed shout, but also... *gasp*... Battle Orders. As long as you're happy with the killing speed and survivability of your barb, you're set.:smiley:
I just completed my frenzy barb and i am very happy with him. I always liked frenzy as it is the most fun skill to play, but now i am also sure this is the fastest killer under the barbs. The damage is almost 8k for the right hand.
Controlability
I have read people saying the speed is uncontrollable, and if you use frenzy on left click it probably is. With frenzy on the right button however, it is perfect and i never want to be without the speed again. Also is it easy to keep it charged between battles.
suvivability
The lack of a shield of course makes the frenzy barb a bit vulnerable. When i was poor and had ****ty weapons, i used to use taunt and warcry. Now that i have a decent setup, its durability is good enough that i could play this same build safely in hardcore. Draculs life tap casts very often with frenzy. When lifetap is cast, the barb is immortal. When lifetap is not cast yet, a total of 40 life steal does a good job. My build is a 100% vita build, for 5500 life.
There is no block, no points spend on extra defence. I have also chosen not to use tgods and dwarfstar on this barb because he doesn't really need it.(i very often use those with raven for 3 absorbs) With this massive lack of damage controll, i do sometimes receive some very heavy hits. When life tap is cast, that does not matter. When it is not, i will need rejuvenates. life pots are useless on 5500 life anyway, so i cary only rejuvs on me. I find more than i need. So this barb is a kind of damage sponge using life steal and life tap to keep it in balance and purple pots when needed. Works pretty fine. I am however playing it on softcore now. While i never died with him, i do often have battles where i lose like 10k life per second and steal back 20k trough life tap and i wouldn't feel safe with this if it were hardcore. On hardcore, i think i would put Ber in my helm, use the triple absorb from Tgods, Dward and raven, but i would not add points into shout. I rather use as many points on damage as possible since more damage = more life steal.
The setup
The setup is pretty standard:
Botd BA
Beast BA
Enigma Dusk
Arreats with ruby jewel (15 IAS added is expensive and speed is maxed anyway. Would use ber on HC)
Gore riders
Highlords
Draculs (key item for the frenzy barb)
String of ears (very underestimated belt. I did try them all, this is the best belt for my barb)
Bull kathos ring
ravenfrost (the AR is pretty important)
some damage/AR charms
barb torch
res all charms (it is better to use res all charms and put ed in arreat than to use um in arreat and fine charms in stash)
20 frenzy
20 double swing
20 axe mastery
20 BO
1 warcry
1 natural resist
1 increase speed
prereqs
rest in taunt
merc
Since i get horny from doing a lot of damage, i also made my might merc +8 to all skills with a shako, arkaines and ariocs needle. That is 80% extra ed.
And soon, i will try and solo tristram with him. I will use rising sun, 2 ravenfrost and Tgods in order not to die when mephi is near. I will also try and use kingslayer instead of botd for the extra CB.
...and when u get REALLY skilled, youll ditch dracs, and add laying of hands gloves, and find a way to cast decrepify curse, and never overwrite it with lifetap again.
Unfortunately, lifetap doesnt increase your damage. Decrepify does :)
Wracken... can u see what MASSIVE damage improvement just these two small changes will do to your killing power?
Good. Glad to hear you understand.
...and secondly
Spending 1 point in stamina and another in increased speed, is wasted, since you run fast enough with frenzy and enigma equipped
Spending 1 point in battlecry and another in warcry, is also wasted.
These four points are better spent in maxing taunt for more frenzy damage.
Too late now, but since your after max damage (like i am) you can appreciate what im saying, no?
Decreasing a monster/bosses def by half will increase your dmg to a greater extent than 2 more points into Taunt.
...and when u get REALLY skilled,
Good. Glad to hear you understand.
PUKE. Such an attitude aint working in real life and it aint working online either. I already dislike you too much now to go into any discussion with you.
Decreasing a monster/bosses def by half will increase your dmg to a greater extent than 2 more points into Taunt.
Thats what your mercs Infinity polearm is for. Lower Enemies defence @ lvl 12 Conviction Aura by 83%
So now you have 2 more points to spend on taunt :wink3: :wink3: :wink3: hehehe
You now dont need to interrupt your frenzying, (which by the way is what keeps you alive via lifeleech) to cast battlecry.
But even more importantly, battlecry acts like a curse, which is a big no-no when one is casting decrepify, because it overwrites it.
If your wondering wtf im going on about, Decrepify is THE best curse a frenzy barb can have on its enemies. No ifs no buts, AAA grade benefits from this necromancer curse.
Wacken,
Whoa dude, just telling you how to improve your frenzier.
Ive spent nearly 5 years playing D2, and the only char ive ever built is Frenzy Barbs. Thats it. Nothing else. No Sorcs, Zons, not even WW'ers.
Over this time, ive made mistakes on each build, but each time i make a new one, the amount of mistakes have decreased, and the amount of improvements have increased.
Use my knowledge, i beg u :jig:
You've got questions. I can feel it...
Using a eth Collossus sword as a death is to slow or ?:idea:
Just missing a few ists for my barb and i'm set to go ....have a feeling he´s gonna be rockin :cool:
You're going for Max dmg and you use an Infinity on your Merc?
Consider Pride + Might Merc or a Faith Rogue.
You're going for Max dmg and you use an Infinity on your Merc?
Consider Pride + Might Merc or a Faith Rogue.
Funny, but you said it yourself- cutting monster defense will do more to increase your damage than adding a bit more ED%. I'd imagine that Infinity + Decrep would deal more damage than Pride + Battle Cry, although Infinity + Amp would outdamage them both.
Funny, but you said it yourself- cutting monster defense will do more to increase your damage than adding a bit more ED%. I'd imagine that Infinity + Decrep would deal more damage than Pride + Battle Cry, although Infinity + Amp would outdamage them both.
You've obviously missed the context of the quote.
Pride + Might Merc + Battecry will do more for dmg and AR than the suggestions you've provided. You should also consider that in this setup, the barb still can provide Decrep as well via LawBringer or Amp via Lacerator, Atmas, RareAmpWeapons, etc.
Infinity is not a great choice for Physical dmg types since it will only decrease monster's defense, something which Battle Cry is sufficient and already entirely effective for.
About a year ago, i went on a massive month long quest to find an effective way to cast amp damage.
Amp damage is an incredible curse for a frenzier. Trouble is, theres no built in safety device like decrepify, so I scraped the idea, and found Lawbringer switch to be even better for uberkilling.
Lyrs
The problem with Pride merc weapon is 5 fold.
Since it doesnt have on weapon ed%, all the auras the merc has available to him (Concentration + Might) multiply his base damage which is pretty low.
(Etheral cryptic axe 49-225 base damage)
So once all the auras stack, your mercs damage is pathetic, but your frenziers damage is higher. Now we loose the -enemy defence % from Infinity, and your saying to use battle cry to solve this.
If i cast decrepify, i instantly loose the -defence %, and we are back where we started.
Secondly, Infinity blows Pride out of the water for merc damage +40% crushing blow, prevent monster heal, adds 35% faster run walk, all the lightning damage plus -55% lite resists, and worse still, Pride casts HIT BLINDS TARGET so it overwrites all curses, including your battlecry, and my decrepify.
Also, the +% to demon damage on pride, still only applies to the base damge from etheral cryptic axe, so its low as hell lolol.
And finaly, battlecry, more importantly than anything ive mentioned so far, doesnt have:
-50% enemy physical resists
This, will pwn your increased damage from concentration aura by such a massive amount, including (but not only) physical immune enemies.
Lets see how long it takes u to kill a wraith in hell worldstone without changing to berserk (which, i not planning to waste the 3 points to get anyway)
Dont get my wrong.
Battle cry is good, but with knowledge applied with all the amazing items now available, its getting increasingly harder to justify when making an offensive based frenzier
Anyway,
Im in the middle of refitting my merc to survive ubertrist, with no lifetap for each of us.
This is what I have in mind:
Act 2 Hell Offensive
Armor: Ebugged CoH Archon Plate
Helm: Etheral Andariel's Visage socketed with Ber
Weapon: Etheral Doom Thresher
Base Aura: Blessed Aim
These items, will boost attack rating for me, slow enemies to a crawl, give good life leech for merc, decent physical resists for merc, good skill increases fo merc, decent damage for merc, but id love to use an infinity weapon, but it will get pwnd by mephistos conviction aura, and be wasted.
Anyway, keep the questions coming, im happy to answer them all.
The problem with Pride merc weapon is 5 fold.
Since it doesnt have on weapon ed%, all the auras the merc has available to him (Concentration + Might) multiply his base damage which is pretty low.
(Etheral cryptic axe 49-225 base damage)
So once all the auras stack, your mercs damage is pathetic, but your frenziers damage is higher.
I have an Eth CA Pride on my Might Merc so I know the damage of my Merc and it is by no means "pathetic." Coupled with a Fort and Anderials, he's more than capable of killing quickly and surviving.
Now we loose the -enemy defence % from Infinity, and your saying to use battle cry to solve this.
If i cast decrepify, i instantly loose the -defence %, and we are back where we started.
If you need the decrep, than don't use BC. If you need BC than obviously, don't use Decrep. I don't find it a problem with my setup since I do not use LawBringer 100 of the time.
Secondly, Infinity blows Pride out of the water for merc damage +40% crushing blow,
You have CB also and if you really want your merc to have Cb, a Guilame's or Duress works just fine.
prevent monster heal
Doesn't work with mercs.
adds 35% faster run walk
whee.
all the lightning damage plus -55% lite resists
Maybe it'll matter if you equip him with a dream helm, else that's useless.
and worse still, Pride casts HIT BLINDS TARGET so it overwrites all curses, including your battlecry, and my decrepify.
I don't find it a problem at all. It doesn't work on bosses and it affects only the target my merc is attacking.
Also, the +% to demon damage on pride, still only applies to the base damge from etheral cryptic axe, so its low as hell lolol.
You don't know what you are talking about.
And finaly, battlecry, more importantly than anything ive mentioned so far, doesnt have:
-50% enemy physical resists
This, will pwn your increased damage from concentration aura by such a massive amount, including (but not only) physical immune enemies.
Look, if you need decrep, you'll have it via Lawbringer. If you have BattleCry along with Decrep, you'll be able to face more scenarios than just LawBringer.
Lets see how long it takes u to kill a wraith in hell worldstone without changing to berserk (which, i not planning to waste the 3 points to get anyway)
You seem to have forgotten that the discussion is over whether 2 pts to get Battle Cry produces less dmg output than 2 more pts into a synergy, of which provides very little gain by themselves.
When you meet PI's, it's not all that difficult to switch over to LawBringer or Lacertor or some other Amp/decrep weapon.
Dont get my wrong.
Battle cry is good, but with knowledge applied with all the amazing items now available, its getting increasingly harder to justify when making an offensive based frenzier
Whatever, you are basing your knowledge on the new items which you own, will own, or want to own. BC is a skill which will remain useful for all except the very wealthiest and twinked out characters.
You've obviously missed the context of the quote.
Pride + Might Merc + Battecry will do more for dmg and AR than the suggestions you've provided.
Not true. Infinity + Might Merc + Decrep will deal more damage than Pride + Might Merc + Battlecry. The -50% Physical Resistance built into Decrep will make a much greater difference than the extra ED on Pride, given the amount of off-weapon ED you'll already be rocking. From a strictly damage standpoint, the first setup will beat out the second. And if you *DO* rely on a Battle Cry rig, you can't switch to Decrep whenever you feel like it, because your cth will drop through the floor.
"And if you *DO* rely on a Battle Cry rig, you can't switch to Decrep whenever you feel like it, because your cth will drop"
SSoG knows the score.
...which leads us back to now spending 2 more points into frenzy synergy for more damage.
If curses stacked, like auras, then it would be a whole other ball game.
or is it 1 point to spend? lol hahah
1 question:
I have soloed tristram now for the first time. While diablo and baal were extremely easy, not a single potion needed, i used almost a full belt of purple pots on mephi and it was far from safe.
I used rising sun (60 fire absorb) 2 ravenfrost (40 cold absorb) and Tgods (20 lightning absorb. I am planning for next time to exchange a ravenfrost with wisp projector and see if that works better.
What do you guys do to counter the conviction ?
Note that i am non ladder and i do not have the wealth to buy ladder items that are traded here.
(complete list of items used it to solo the ubers:)
Enigma
Beast
Kingslayer
Tgods
ravenfrost x 2
rising sun
goreriders
arreats
draculs
charms for max hell resists and about 10 extra.
charms for some max damage.
My merc simply doesnt live to tell the tale of tristram.
Second question, how do you make the merc survive trough conviction and the rest of tristram?
GreyGhost
11-11-2006, 01:31
@Wacken:
I'm suprised that, even with life tap, your merc is dying. Try ditching Lawbringer for an Ebotd, then decrepify won't overcast life tap. I understand that you need Lawbringer to fight the physical immune undead. Try casting howl or using a delerium on your merc (confuse) to keep minions busy. Against ubers, you can use Last Wish, which would allow you to switch Dracs to LoH (more demon damage).
To survive Meph's conviction, switch Infinity for Chains of Honor. You also might want to think about using Highlord's ammy, for deadly strike and IAS.
1 Ravenfrost should be enough. If you can kill the first two ubers easily then your attack rating is high enough. Wisp is not a bad choice, and Carrion Wind, Soj and Bk are good as well.
If you use the search function you can find a lot of threads about this.
Cdnexpat
11-11-2006, 03:27
If you are looking for an item specifically for Mephie, Blackhorns face (unique helm) comes with 15 light resist and 20 light absorb, with T Gods that would give you 40 absorb. Swap nigma for COH to make up the resists. I would also recommend High Lords over rising sun and would opt for something with CB over lawbringer.
Huh, i never mentioned lawbringer.
I did however mention that i cannot afford the ladder items like last wish. Beast and Kingslayer are my tristram weapons. Against the other 2, i replaced my kingslayer with botd for the last bit. Against mephi i had to drink purple pots so fast, there was no time to open the inventory and do this :)
I did not use the second ravenfrost for attack rating of course. My philosophy was that i cannot get 130 extra resists so i can just as well ignore resistances all together and try to live with only absorbs.
I do use highlords or course when i do anything else than fightign uber mephi. Rising sun gives a lot of absorb to use against mephi.
Using CoH instead of enigma may be an option to return me half the lost resists. I'll don't think it will give enough str to wear everything though.
Blackhorns did come to mind as it will allow me to bring all my absorbs to 35+, but arreats is so good it's hard to remove it.
i know jack all about frenzy and barbs, but the abandoning resists in favour of absorb isn't a very ideal way to do things
if your resists are negative, you might as well treat the 20% absorb as 40% resist
having high resists AND absorb, you won't even feel a thing
i know jack all about frenzy and barbs, but the abandoning resists in favour of absorb isn't a very ideal way to do things
if your resists are negative, you might as well treat the 20% absorb as 40% resist
having high resists AND absorb, you won't even feel a thing
Mephi has conviction aura. I believe it's lvl 21 or something close to that. This means -130% resistances. With the standard hell level penalty, this means you have to gather 305% resistances. Since i figured that to be impossible, i wanted not to even try. At zero resist, 40% absorb should equal 80% resist. At negative resist, i do not know if the absorb amount is counted from the base 100% magic damage or from magic damage after it has been altered by the negative resists.
High resist AND absorb is rather difficult against a 130% penalty of course, but if i don't do the weapon swiching (wepaons give good str bonusses, i can do without eni strength if i don't want to swich them) and thus BO myself before i swich armors, i may try it next time with CoH. That will make up for some of the lost resistances. While i'm at it, i may also try and replace those absorb rings by res all rings and the amulet by a mara so that i do not have any of the absorbs, but i do have max resists.
At negative resist, i do not know if the absorb amount is counted from the base 100% magic damage or from magic damage after it has been altered by the negative resists.
Absorb always comes after Resists in the damage formula, so it will affect the resistance-modified damage.
Also, don't forget about Treachery. Put on Treachery, stand in a fire until the Fade triggers, then switch back to your regular armor and enter Uber-Trist. It's a pain, but it'll last for almost five minutes, and it will give you an extra "free" 60% resist all and 15% DR. Since it's only really necessary for UberMeph, it's a pretty tolerable step in the prebuffing process, and it will make up almost half of that resistance penalty that he slaps on you.
eh, i believe the 305% all res is quite possible
barb natural res, lets put it 40%
anya, 30%
coh, 65%
good metalgrid, 30%
fade, 60%
ok kira's, 60%
add miscellaneous all res charms to hit 305
you still have belt and rings for absorb
dwarf star, raven frost, wisp, tgods?
Yeah, you have to raise those resists using CoH.
I love my nigma, but i have to swap to CoH to survive massive elemental damge that goes on in uber trist.
CoH is still a very good armor for barbs anyway, with xtra damage to demons and undead, plus 8% life leech, but i understand your pain when you have to remove enigma, and its awesome boost to strength.
U really need positive resists after meph's conviction, even if its 30-40%.
Prebuffing in a fire with treachery is a good option, be it a little tedious.
To be honest, id stick with dracs, forget about decrepify for the time being, and play with lifetap, because, decrepify, while giving more damage, is ALOT more damgerous to your survivability in ubertrist, and since you have only done ubers once or so, take some time to understand what goes on in there,. before taking those dracs off for other gloves etc.
1. Put CoH on
2. Keep Dracs on
3. Hilords on
4. Dual Ravens are my choice
5. Beast is good, but no leech
6. Kingslayer: hmm, meh, plus no leech
7. Arreats nuts if you take it off
8. Wisp ring good only for 20% lite absorb, and nothing else
9. Carrion ring good for 9%ll and nothing else
Mercs are hard to keep alive in there: Theyll need lots of DR and resists, as well as leech
Vamp gaze might be a top choice for uber killing. Might piss my Andariels helm off for it
CoH armor the way to go: ebugged eth would be my top choice
Im thinking Doom eth thrersher to slow them all down, basically becomes a damage reduction device.
And for att rating, go Blessed aim. Compromises need to be made to keep him alive in there.
GG have fun
GG have fun
New update. I soloed them again :)
Metalgrid is probably unafordable for me. I have never seen in in non-ladder trade yet.
Treachery i didn't know yet. I haven't used it, but thanx for the tip. We (me and my d2 friend) will probably use this someday since he is now trying to make a paladin solo tristram (and i am just hoping it will do worse than my barb :p) and he is planning in the future to make an assasin solo tristram. The assa might need some help from this i guess....
This time, i first BOed myself with enigma since i need its str to use my weapon swiches. Then i put on CoH.
Other than that i now used mara's. Together this gave me 52% res all against mephis aura. I used raven-dward-Tgods so i had some of all the resist to go with it.
Next time, i may play a bit more with the belt, rings and amulet to see what makes it easiest.
For weapons i don't think i have a lot of choise but beast end the "meh" kingslayers. I can't affort last wish. I use them both for their CB and i have BOTD in inventory to swich for the last bit of the enemies health.
It worked fine, no risk of dying for me. The merc was gone in a second against mephisto, survived the fight against diablo and stood a little while against baal but died when baal made too many minions. I will have to live with that since Doom and ethereal COH are too expensive for my merc.
My AR was the worst thing now. I had 60% chance to hit the ubers. (lvl89) I don't want to replace my merc though because he won't live in tristram anyway. Next time i'll see how much help i get from a second raven.
if you ask me, paladins have it alot easier
any paladin has 1 point in smite, and with just death or last wish they can smite most anything to death
i just did dclone that spawned randomly for the first time ever and my life didn't even drop for the 5 seconds it took to kill him
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