is a necro summoner any good pvp

[nebularat]

hi all
i know alot of u would say its bm but who cares its very rare you come across any one having gm in pub's im just wondering if this build could stand it...
gear set up would be something lke this........
eni bp
spirit 35%
arach 20%
trang gloves 20%
helm i was thinking either skako or rare with fcr
amu mara
bk and soj or 2 soj or 2 bk
torch
anni
skillers
not sure on a weapon yet but maybe hoto or wizzy or other idea's
merc act 1 faith

any coments please

thx in advance

[Dennis_KoreanGuy]

Pure summoner is not meant for pub. Unless you are willing to continuously get revives over and over, you will be shut down completely by atleast a person or two in a full game.

Try a Bone skill as a hybrid.

One thing though, if you get Beast on yourself, sure it lowers your fcr / res, but then you can have an a2 merc with Might, Concentration, Thorns, watever.

[nebularat]

i was thinking of max skells
skell mastery
and probly a bone skill or poison skill for attack although it wont be high it could still do good damage from +skills
fire golem and golem mastery and summon resist

beast weapon sounds good to me i already got a pride weapon on a ama...

this is an experimental build just to try for fun........

i just want to hear the responce from duels when i come with army of skells and they say noob necro till i tele on top of them with army i got all the gear so its not gona cost me anything to make so nothing lost if it turns out to be crap :wink3:

[Dennis_KoreanGuy]

Yes, a summoner nec is indeed fun to play with. Get couple bm revives and you can actually kill many class with ease.

+1 in Summon Resists is enough. Atleast +1 in Iron Maiden / Decrepify is needed. +1 in Prison. Use Spirit as your main skill. Your duel tactic is pretty much jumping on em, so you do not need the speed of Spears. Also more damage.

You will have absurdly easy time vs. builds like bowers, but builds like hammerdins will have absurdly easy time against you. Make sure you curse your opponents. IM works beautifully. Amp the casters.

Note that if you are prepared to use a merc continuously, equip a might merc with Pride and Bramble. And if you use Bramble, Bramble + Amp works better than Bramble + IM. Thorns affects all your minions, so any ww barb / smiter who's stupid enough to attack random targets will instantly die.

[nickedoff]

Summoners in PVP are fun, but there's no one that has trouble killing them...and then it takes like five minutes to summon everything again.

'Hybrids' aren't as great as they were before...christless marrow bug fixed.

[nebularat]

thx i will give it a try anyway seems like it could be fun but we will see????

[Dennis_KoreanGuy]

Summoners in PVP are fun, but there's no one that has trouble killing them...and then it takes like five minutes to summon everything again.

'Hybrids' aren't as great as they were before...christless marrow bug fixed.
I dunno... I had extreme fun with my summoner vs. 7 bowers in one game... but that will never happen again.. :tongue:

[DIEnamic]

pvp summoner isnt half bad. with immune reviving and minion stacking its like playing god.

my build is
20 raise skele
20 summon mastery
1 revive
1 summon resist
20 bone prison
20 bone spear
10+ bone wall
1 amp
1 IM

at first I couldn't decide to poison nova, bone spirit, or bone spear. poison nova would have been nice, and bone spirit would pack extra punch while you tele on top of someone but in the end bone spear just had more range and spammability.

flooding the field with bone spears will keep your opponent off balance so to speak despite them doing some pretty sad damage. another reason why I choose spear was the fact that a good white wand will boost it 8 points which could really make you a formidable opponent if you get good at aiming them.

bone spirit could work but it moves so slow and is easy to avoid while poison nova has no range and can be avoided fairly easily. with poison resist factored in I'm not sure how well it'll do unless you sacrifice some skill points in skeleton mastery to synergize it.

beast ettin
enigma ap
35% fcr spirit
arach
trang gloves
maras
sojs
marrows
shako

with that setup you hit 75% fcr which is just enough for the breakpoint without sacrificing anything on your skeles. if you are really compulsive and want to squeeze as many stat points as possible I suppose a mp or dusk enigma could get the job done. defense doesnt matter since minions will be tanking most if not all the damage except in rare cases.

if theres one thing I particularly like about playing my pvp summoner, its the fact that reviving immunes can give you a 3-minute godmode. the reactions I get from hammerdins, blizz sorcs, bone necros, it is just priceless. you can pretty much minion stack against any build under the sun and there are very few counters too it.

blizz sorcs used to namelocking and typing gg but when they realize you are throwing atea party with your minions in his so called "gg blizz" his jaw just drops and hes the first one to unhostile you.

like I said before there are a few builds that will give you trouble; namely fire sorcs unless you just stack a ton of fire resist and sorb and revive some godly fire immune melee monsters. I haven't personally tried this method, but in theory it would could work. hotspurs, dwarf stars, rising sun... not sure if theres more but by sorbing him to negate his damage or at least severely limit it should make you a much harder duel. reviving a bunch of those demon knight monsters in chaos sanctuary will make things much easier when dueling a fire sorc.

others that will be a hard duel include:

auradins - like duel vs a time bomb.. no fun. desync makes bone prison useless

windy - comes down to how good he is at pinpoint namelocking with 20+ minions on top of you. you can still win this but whoever teles on top of the other guy first wins usually.

trapper with mindblast - fhr is important but the stun duration is not pvp penalized so your minions just have to be stunned for like 7-8 seconds before they can attack again.

sin with cloak of shadows - sup blind minions

bvc - good ones will carry a lifetap wand and tele-zerk you, in that case you just decrep them and start bone spearing away until life tap duration ends. personally, I haven't dueled many of these.

smart people - with high fcr they just tele around in circles till your revives run out and that makes me a very sad necro.

btw theres Walking Beast monsters in the temples of kurast baazar. they are the only fully magic immune monsters that I know of, they are very limited and random amount of them spawns in a game. sometimes I see NONE and other times theres like 10+ of them in each temple. by reviving these suckers you can pretty much stand in hammer fields all you want.

sorry for the long post, but I hope its informative and gives you a little insight on how pvp necros fare in pub duels. if you plan on making one then you better damn get good at predicting where your opponent is gonna tele and beat him too it so he teles into your minion pile. :jig:

I've tried searching before so don't even think of telling me to "use search nubz". is there some sort of revive minion guide that has the ideal revives and their locations? normally I pick mine out of kurast baazar since there is a little of everything there but the act 5 monsters are really intriguing.

[Lord Nyax]

I'll pitch in here. Now, I have a "Summoner" for PvP, though I must tell you, in reality it's a Golemancer (can you say 55k life clay?). However, I have insane +summoning skills, so I sometimes Minion stack. Anywho, onto the tips.

Dying sucks, don't do it. It takes forever to get back up and running. Well, most of the time...but yeah, avoid dying. Surrender, if you can.
You can't kill Hammerdins with only Summons. Either get Bone or Poison skills, or unhostile them.
I maxed IM. I found/find it very useful. Smiters are probably the second easiest build to kill with a summoner, IF you IM them. If you don't, they might be a little tough. If you don't max it, you might atleast want some Thorns...Act 1 Merc using Edge and Bramble would basically truck the hell out of any Melee Character, ever.
Getting auras makes your Skeletons way stronger than you'd think. A level 9 Fanatacism aura from Beast will make them...I'd estimate 3x stronger, maybe more. Doesn't make sense to me, but from my experience, it's true.
The more summons you have, the longer you'll live. Summon mages, even if they suck. It's still another target that people have to aim around. Above all else, have fun. It sounds cheesy, maybe even stupid, but it's true. If killing people really fast really easily is your thing, go play PvM. PvP is, hopefully, about a different type of challenge. Sometimes you'll have a game where you'll be the local laughing stock, and then a game later you'll kill everyone easily. Deal with it.

[Dennis_KoreanGuy]

You talk of using White to up Spear damage, and yet you use Beast (as you should) on your gear setup.

I dislike using Spears because it forces you to waste valuable chances for a successful tele jump, and even if you do hit someone with Spears which is unlikely given long distance, it will be a pitiable damage.

A summoner's main goal should be namelock tele, and once you manage that Spirits are better for more damage / accuracy.

It will be hard to catch 200% FB sorcs. Sure you can go fireproof and get FI Revives, but its more likely she will just tele away till most of your revives go poof.

Against Auradins, you namelock prison or just wall everywhere, followed by quick tele. The only way.

Trapper I had extreme difficult time with. Like most duels, your skellies will be ezkilled and you will only have Revives going for you.

A smart bvc don't even need a life tap wand. Just leap howl tele zerk finish.

Hammerdins you can summon all the MI monsters as you want, but a desynch hdin will just kill you. Hammer hits everything in its path, can't block with a skelli or two.

Merc is definitely recommended as his aura will help you immensely. Thorns + Amp returns wayy more damage than IM. Not to mention Conc / Might. If you are seriously thinking of Reviving every time, you should easily get 50k by the time you get full army. Besides, how are you going to get first couple revives to kill more with?

As for your question on wut revives to get; Max Wraiths. Muhaha you look completely like an angel. :cool:

Edit: btw I see you've removed your mention of using White. Good job.
Edit: I can't stress how godly Thorns / Amp is. Maxing IM???? It is a proven fact that Amp + Thorns deals more damage returned than IM. That's not even counting that Amp actually doubles YOUR damage as well, not just his.

[DIEnamic]

the white wand mention is still in there, but it is more of a tool to use in the rare event that summons are relatively ineffective and I need to have some kind of offensive weapon. though I rarely use it, its a nice asset to have knowing that your bone spear still packs a decent punch.

though you should be using beast 99% of the time, being able to kill those particularly annoying defensive builds like TRAPPERS with bone spears is a plus. let him camp his traps all his want, I'll just rain bone spears down on him all day.

desynch hammerdin isn't too bad, however guessing where he REALLY is according to the server is bad. you can still mess up their charge with bone wall spamming but the game is already laggy enough with a summoner toting around 20+ minions.

the desync hammers are no different than your pvm turned dueler hoto/tele hdin's hammers, other than you cannot see most of them (given its a good hdin). as long as you never move out of your minion block, the hammer will be hitting the revives first. the real challenge of this is killing him in <2 mins while he charges about like a fool.

one thing that is really important, try not to depend on your merc too much in pvp. the merc is almost guaranteed to die, but if you keep him alive he adds much more damage when you namelock tele someone.

my merc wears eth crown of thieves, eth infinity thresher, and ebugged loricated fort 3200 def. I switch bramble on once in a while but it's really a toss up there and I find myself too lazy to keep reviving him after he initially dies anyway. laziness + pvp summoner = teh fail T_T

I really wouldn't suggest maxing IM since thorns+bramble is much stronger, but in reality ONE point in IM does more than enough to make the other guy one click himself. like Lord Nyax said, 55k hp clay golems are sexy when it comes to uncapped damage return.

the only really absolute overpowering revives that I've come across are the obvious souls in worldstone keep 2, 3, and throne. you know, the ones that foil your baal run because of their 1-3509187271297 lightning damage. revive like 24 of those and with infinity pretty much bombing their light res it gets really pissy fast.

[chessvampire]

I would say that this build would take too much effort to use (getting summons after each death) to be 'viable'. although everyone is different :)

[Camden]

Summoners blow, sorry. About all you can kill are **** hammerdins and zons.

[nebularat]

thx for responce guys....

im currently lvl 56 in nm baalruns i got all equipment exept beast at moment
but im working on that next im using eni bp to get more life.

as for merc how would this stand..
might merc with bramble, pride, dream(just of little finishing damage)
or would u suggest i different helm..

thx again guys i cant wait to do or die :laugh:
either way it looks fun so why not give it a try...

thx

[theredpredator]

Iron maiden is the gayest tactic ever.

[DIEnamic]

Iron maiden is the gayest tactic ever.

lol lemme guess... smiter? I will admit, iron maiden is a pretty *** tactic. however, smite being unblockable and having infinite AR is probably even more ***. on top of that you get CtC life tap.

Summoners blow, sorry. About all you can kill are **** hammerdins and zons.

lies. you obviously don't know anything about pvp summoners. I will leave it at that.

thx for responce guys....

im currently lvl 56 in nm baalruns i got all equipment exept beast at moment
but im working on that next im using eni bp to get more life.

as for merc how would this stand..
might merc with bramble, pride, dream(just of little finishing damage)
or would u suggest i different helm..

thx again guys i cant wait to do or die
either way it looks fun so why not give it a try...

thx

that gear looks fine for a merc, although life leech will keep him alive much longer pvm-wise. in pvp he gets owned in one hit so it wouldn't matter. another idea that I haven't tried yet, could be maybe a shako or CoA if you really enjoy spending on your merc. the +skills will up your mercs might which in turn adds more damage from skeles.

I've tried both pride and infinity and I can say theres little if not any difference between them. infinity lowers their defense and allows for more hits to connect while pride will boost damage and make uninterruptable attacks. it really comes down to how you want it.

like I have said before, in pvp situations merc is going to be dead and you won't be rezzing him too often seeing as its 50k a pop. merc really makes this build work pvm-wise though.

[funkmu]

i played against this pvp summoner once, he used nigma and teleported next me, and his creatures all attacked at once, pwned. tho i was a barb so i dont kno if that counts prbly gets raped by sorcs, and zons tho

[McCOOOL]

I have a pretty decked out summoner on west ladder, feel free to leave a msg if you want test duel him.

And as to whether they any good pvp, they are vs certain classes and kinda get dominated vs other (but what ain't).

Good vs - melee who cant nl and any casters who have stack absorable attacks.

Bad vs - melee who can nl, fbers/windies in particular.

[Camden]

They're fun, but by no means good. By all means make one, just I wouldn't recommend pumping too much of your funds into it ;)

[SicHalo]

[QUOTE=DIEnamic]lol lemme guess... smiter? I will admit, iron maiden is a pretty *** tactic. however, smite being unblockable and having infinite AR is probably even more ***. on top of that you get CtC life tap.



lies. you obviously don't know anything about pvp summoners. I will leave it at that.



Sorry no summoners do tend to blow, in duel cuz u have to summon them which takes time, then if u die u have to resummon etc also there are ways arround beating summoners any type of attack with splash dmg = dead summoner, i.e fireball, most elemental attacks etc, even vs mele, lifetap>IM or worst vs a barb u will get the leap + zerk treatment.

However vs some chars it works, i.e fohers it makes the foh hard to aim to get namelock and some smiters, hammer again depends cuz desyncing hammer will simply knock ur minnion stack off very fast if he is decent before going for the kill.

[Papermate]

summoners as PVP player are actually IMO awesome. I just recently stripped my lvl90 summoner so i dont play him n e more but in pub duels he was awesome. I disagree with anyone who says that summoners are easy to beat. I used a Might merc w/ infinity and gulliames so when u summon a few urdars and tele ontop of someone with a full army they will get locked up many times and you will* rape them. I'd use magefist instead of trangs for sure and use Hoto w/ CTA on switch and get a circlet over shako without a doubt. I had lvl 45 summons and Mages and absolutely owned so i hope it works out the same for you... Just stay away from HDins because they will rape you also good windies will bend you over as well.

[DIEnamic]

Sorry no summoners do tend to blow, in duel cuz u have to summon them which takes time, then if u die u have to resummon etc also there are ways arround beating summoners any type of attack with splash dmg = dead summoner, i.e fireball, most elemental attacks etc, even vs mele, lifetap>IM or worst vs a barb u will get the leap + zerk treatment.

However vs some chars it works, i.e fohers it makes the foh hard to aim to get namelock and some smiters, hammer again depends cuz desyncing hammer will simply knock ur minnion stack off very fast if he is decent before going for the kill.

yes dying and resummoning is a pain in the ***, but to be quite honest, if you play it right you don't end up dying too often. the 3 minute revive timer is more of a nuisance than death. however, it is a fact that you will almost guaranteed lose certain duels. mostly due to as you stated, splash damage... even a half-assed fire sorc decked out with the dreaded tals set would just own a summoner.

leap zerk is semi-effective, albeit very risky. wearing spirit, you will not be stunlocked by his leap, which means you can restack your minions every couple leaps. usually by him teleing into a pile of skeles and minions, its certain death. especially if he is using zerk. it'll cost him an ear but not only that, you will know who the real winner is when you spend the next 2 minutes resummoning. most bvc are very skilled (and far richer) duelers. I'm sure if you stacked a necros life up enough to take at least ONE zerk, your minions would have enough time to finish up the job.

life tap works more or less vs a summoner. I have dueled many smiters that get a tap off and IM not longer works on them. other times they seem to maiden themselves to death despite having tap. perhaps it has to do with them hitting clay golem which has enough hp to return a considerable amount of damage even with life tap. can't be for sure though. but all in all, if you get tapped, just tele around him till it wears off then jump back in the action.

about desync hdins... why do people keep saying that the hammers are damaging minions!? I have dueled plenty of them and the hammers don't do jack vs the walking beast magic immunes. as long as you have a couple beast immunes, your skeles are safe. the only advantage a desync has is the fact that desync makes them nearly impossible to kill since you will never catch them to tele on top. its almost similiar to dueling auradin, but they have no way of beating you while MI are alive, however all bets are off after the revives wear out.

the summon AI works like this. as long as you have a few revives, your minions will stay stacked in one spot (revives on top) while you tele unless you move. merc is the exception since he is an idiot and will leeroy out of the minion stack and ultimately end up getting owned.

I tried the idea of going full on fire proof vs fire sorc and just reviving the meanest fire immunes I could find (chaos sanc), it didn't work at all. the revives take way too long to attack compared to skeles, and only one of them seems to attack while stacked, otherwise their damage flat out blows. skeles work differently with all 16 of them pounding on the target at once. its deadly when you use the immune revives to shield you and your skeles. this is all moot vs a fire sorc, since they die out after 3 or 4 fireballs.

sooooo, this is one of the situations where white wand comes in handy. you just get your hotspurs, dwarfs, rising sun, even a hexfire, then stack fire res to 95 and take it to them with bone spear.

summoners as PVP player are actually IMO awesome. I just recently stripped my lvl90 summoner so i dont play him n e more but in pub duels he was awesome. I disagree with anyone who says that summoners are easy to beat. I used a Might merc w/ infinity and gulliames so when u summon a few urdars and tele ontop of someone with a full army they will get locked up many times and you will* rape them. I'd use magefist instead of trangs for sure and use Hoto w/ CTA on switch and get a circlet over shako without a doubt. I had lvl 45 summons and Mages and absolutely owned so i hope it works out the same for you... Just stay away from HDins because they will rape you also good windies will bend you over as well.

urdars is genious! I believe they are light immune as well. these could really pull a light sorcs pisser :lipsrsealed:.by abusing some of these revives you can come up with some nasty combos. kudos to you for that find.

did you max mage? with one point, my mages damage is neglictable to the point where I don't waste time summoning them, but I suppose it would help in the long run.

magefist or trangs is a real tossup, since you spend time summoning monsters its no hassle to pick up some gold for mana pots. I'm a big fan of resist and trangs will give you a healthy dose of cold resist as well as increasing your curse radius. this is really important when trying to place a precision IM or decrep.

I haven't tried, but I strongly advocate going beast over hoto. I have a spare hoto and maybe I'll give it a try, but I think that fanat is too important to give up for a meager hoto. 75% fcr bp is enough imo.

[Camden]

lies. you obviously don't know anything about pvp summoners. I will leave it at that.

I probably know more than you do. Silence.

[morotsjos]

lies. you obviously don't know anything about pvp summoners. I will leave it at that.
you obviously never dueled anyone half-decent in your life. summoners are horrible. i will leave it at that.

[DIEnamic]

I probably know more than you do. Silence.

I'm not doubting your knowledge, but with post like these;

Summoners blow, sorry. About all you can kill are **** hammerdins and zons.

you certainly don't explain any reasoning for why the build "blows", but rather just stating that it can only kill **** hdins and zons.. In fact, you shouldn't even try to sway peoples judgments on a summoner without even bothering to make one yourself. it is pretty clear that you have never even tried a summoner from that useless post you contributed.

you obviously never dueled anyone half-decent in your life. summoners are horrible. i will leave it at that.

oh I see, pick on the guy thats going out of his way to help the topic creator. maybe I should just post garbage spam like you and Camden instead of sharing my experiences playing as a pvp summoner.

this is no trang necro. and for the record, I don't have nearly the amount of wealth to compete against the best of the best and win consistently, that has to be expected though. if you are on west ladder and consider yourself "half-decent", I'm more than happy to disillusion you.

I don't mind you having your own opinions, but honestly you should maybe consider explaining your reasoning for saying a pvp summoner is horrible.

apparently my help in this thread isnt appreciated... but I'll share my theory on how to deal with the "tele-zerk treatment" anyway.

there probably are ways to improve upon this, but by using stormshield instead of spirit and stacking dex as high as possible with 2x ravenfrost, cat's eye, marrows, and even ik gloves and/or a rare dex/fhr belt you can boost your blocking with base dex to 53% (48% without ik) at lvl 90. thats also with 50% damage reduce, nearly 500 vita, and the 56% or even 86% fhr breakpoint if you pushed it with bloodfist and have a couple fhr skiller charms.

leap will not stunlock at that point so restacking your minions every leap will make it very difficult for him to jump you, and better yet zerking will make him very vulnerable.

this should make dueling a barb using a summoner much easier but it's by no means a lock. doomz would make it difficult but it won't be absolutely hopeless.

does anyone know locations of better physical immunes? I know of itchies in act 2 far oasis/maggot lair but they really are hard to stack. theres hell swarm is kurast baazar but they are pretty much the same thing as itchies and don't sit still in the stack.

reliable physical immunes are the only thing stopping this from completely dominating windy druids. there just has to be some others around -.-

[morotsjos]

summoners cant compete with anything half-decent and expect to win consistently or even occasionally. i thought i made myself perfectly clear. rest of your post pretty much sums up what i already knew; you are no good player and you do not duel good players.

[Noite Escura]

However vs some chars it works, i.e fohers it makes the foh hard to aim to get namelock and some smiters, hammer again depends cuz desyncing hammer will simply knock ur minnion stack off very fast if he is decent before going for the kill.
Don't Holy Bolts from FoH kill summons easily?

[DIEnamic]

summoners cant compete with anything half-decent and expect to win consistently or even occasionally. i thought i made myself perfectly clear.

the only thing you made perfectly clear is that you don't have even the slightest clue what you are saying and don't belong in this thread.

now maybe, just maybe, if you could enlighten us as to why a summoner can't compete with anything half-decent then we can make a little progress. I know for a fact that it can.

rest of your post pretty much sums up what i already knew; you are no good player and you do not duel good players.

I do not appreciate the personal attacks in broken english, but seeing as I am a gentleman, you are forgiven. I have dueled many of the top west ladder players and while my success varies, they would have absolutely no chance if I had the luxury of ebayed gear that they have available.

99% of the people who say summoners suck probably have no idea what minion stacking is, or they probably have never dueled vs a "half-decent" minion stacking summoner. you see, being completely immune to almost all of the popular cookie-cutter builds of today is a powerful tool :cool:

the ONLY build that I can see consistently beating a fully decked out pvp summoner would be a bvc with a life tap wand. keep in mind that you will probably never encounter that in a pub, so it's not a worry at all.

[Ce Olba]

I have dueled many of the top west ladder players and while my success varies, they would have absolutely no chance if I had the luxury of ebayed gear that they have available.

And you would be getting quite a handling if you were on NL. NL players have always been better than those on Ladder, multiple people have proved this.

The "top player on Ladder" might be a "pub player" on Non-Ladder.

And what's up with the "ebayed gear"?

99% of the people who say summoners suck probably have no idea what minion stacking is, or they probably have never dueled vs a "half-decent" minion stacking summoner. you see, being completely immune to almost all of the popular cookie-cutter builds of today is a powerful tool :cool:

Well, if you're referring to revives, they disappear in three minutes. And that's a short time you know.

the ONLY build that I can see consistently beating a fully decked out pvp summoner would be a bvc with a life tap wand. keep in mind that you will probably never encounter that in a pub, so it's not a worry at all.

And what about Javazons? Well, of course you can go get 10 000 Gloams, but the javazon will still be there to kill off all your skeletons, and then the only thing you can do is attack with the gloams, and they are easily countered. Also, it takes them a mere few javelins to destroy all your skeletons.

Same with a Lightning sorceress.

I've dueled a summoner with a pride might merc, beast , 20-30ish lifers, max block and max dr. Still beat him with ease on my BvC. The only time I lost was when my Life Tap's timer ended in mid-whirl. Oh, I once even killed him in 2 zerks when he teleported on top of me. And this was with FORTITUDE.

Also, I have dueled a gmerc abusing poison/summon hybrid with very godly gear. Too bad that tgods + lightning stack made the gmerc heal me, so only his poison dealt damage to me (and whenever it did, the merc healed me back to full life), so I didn't use Life Tap, but I used howl and leap to scatter the merc from the necro and then killed the necro.

Summonmancers can be good versus some builds, but very bad versus most anyways.

[DIEnamic]

And you would be getting quite a handling if you were on NL. NL players have always been better than those on Ladder, multiple people have proved this.

The "top player on Ladder" might be a "pub player" on Non-Ladder.

And what's up with the "ebayed gear"?



Well, if you're referring to revives, they disappear in three minutes. And that's a short time you know.



And what about Javazons? Well, of course you can go get 10 000 Gloams, but the javazon will still be there to kill off all your skeletons, and then the only thing you can do is attack with the gloams, and they are easily countered. Also, it takes them a mere few javelins to destroy all your skeletons.

Same with a Lightning sorceress.

I've dueled a summoner with a pride might merc, beast , 20-30ish lifers, max block and max dr. Still beat him with ease on my BvC. The only time I lost was when my Life Tap's timer ended in mid-whirl. Oh, I once even killed him in 2 zerks when he teleported on top of me. And this was with FORTITUDE.

Also, I have dueled a gmerc abusing poison/summon hybrid with very godly gear. Too bad that tgods + lightning stack made the gmerc heal me, so only his poison dealt damage to me (and whenever it did, the merc healed me back to full life), so I didn't use Life Tap, but I used howl and leap to scatter the merc from the necro and then killed the necro.

Summonmancers can be good versus some builds, but very bad versus most anyways.

I agree with you completely. from what I've heard, NL has far more competition and much more skilled duelers. I'm not gonna deny that, however you too cannot deny that there are quite a few great duelers on ladder. not everyone has mcm's skill :wink3:

3 minute revive is probably the one thing that would turn people away from a pvp summoner, but when it comes to bm pub dueling it is all the time in the world. I don't like to advocate bm tactics, but walling the town entrance can buy you pretty much all the time you need to revive more immunes. the show starts when I say it starts.

as far as javazons are concerned, they are probably one of the easier builds to face with a summoner. gloams do work pretty well, but personally I like the woodfist guys in frigid or my newly found favorite urdars. fury or CS, it doesn't matter because it does not hit the skeles at all. same goes for light sorcs... not sure about chain lightning though.:embarassed:

being the bvc expert that you are, I admire a lot of your work with them and know you probably have a badass barb. when you dueled the first necro you described, how did the skele damage stack up vs your barb? I really am curious to see how much tele-stacked 17 skeles and a pride merc do vs a zerking gg barb.

vs melee, summoner has to rely heavily on iron maiden but when you take that away.. quite honestly, I don't think that its possible to beat a fully prepared skilled barb.

[Ce Olba]

I agree with you completely. from what I've heard, NL has far more competition and much more skilled duelers. I'm not gonna deny that, however you too cannot deny that there are quite a few great duelers on ladder. not everyone has mcm's skill :wink3:

Yet if you meet anyone with his skills, you're dead.

being the bvc expert that you are, I admire a lot of your work with them and know you probably have a badass barb. when you dueled the first necro you described, how did the skele damage stack up vs your barb? I really am curious to see how much tele-stacked 17 skeles and a pride merc do vs a zerking gg barb.

My BvC isn't exactly "gg", and my telezerking skills are very lacking. However, if I say to you that if I stood still for more than like three seconds while having amp and the skeles on top of me, I would be dead, would that satisfy you? However, in the end it was quite boring, as Leap + Howl made it so that it didn't matter which curse he had on me, he was dead anyways.

vs melee, summoner has to rely heavily on iron maiden but when you take that away.. quite honestly, I don't think that its possible to beat a fully prepared skilled barb.

Well, as I said, I only lost once, and that was when I wasn't fully aware of the duration of Life Tap and had it unluckily go off mid-whirl. And that was just once.

As for your wall-the-town strategy, how are you planning to get enough revives in 24 seconds?

[jake007]

It's impossible for a bvc to beat a bone wall camping necro with summon stack and iron maiden. FACT.

[mainaman]

It's impossible for a bvc to beat a bone wall camping necro with summon stack and iron maiden. FACT.but then again thats not dueling but a stand off kind of situation.
how do you duel someone thats out of your reach practically hiding from you?

[Ce Olba]

It's impossible for a bvc to beat a bone wall camping necro with summon stack and iron maiden. FACT.

It depends what kind of a necro. If it's a boner, you can go into a house, that will own him.

If it's a summoner, Life Tap>Him, as whatever you hit, you will most likely heal (as if you hit the summons (lots of them), you heal, if you do not, you do not, but neither does he damage you).

And btw, Leap>minions. Be they in walls or not.

[morotsjos]

the only thing you made perfectly clear is that you don't have even the slightest clue what you are saying and don't belong in this thread.

now maybe, just maybe, if you could enlighten us as to why a summoner can't compete with anything half-decent then we can make a little progress. I know for a fact that it can.



I do not appreciate the personal attacks in broken english, but seeing as I am a gentleman, you are forgiven. I have dueled many of the top west ladder players and while my success varies, they would have absolutely no chance if I had the luxury of ebayed gear that they have available.

99% of the people who say summoners suck probably have no idea what minion stacking is, or they probably have never dueled vs a "half-decent" minion stacking summoner. you see, being completely immune to almost all of the popular cookie-cutter builds of today is a powerful tool :cool:

the ONLY build that I can see consistently beating a fully decked out pvp summoner would be a bvc with a life tap wand. keep in mind that you will probably never encounter that in a pub, so it's not a worry at all.
everything you write proves my point. you dont think twice before claiming that others post lies so complaining about "personal attacks" or whatever is just hypocrisy. i almost stopped reading after your ebay rant, competent duelers never make up such pathetic excuses.
you go on and on about lifetap while everyone else knows that physical immunes makes it useless. honestly i cannot see how you have any problems dealing with barbs whatsoever. you talk about minion stacking like you just found out and dont expect anyone else to know.
if you go through the hassle to make yourself immune to your opponent in 1v1 "dueling" it says more about yourself than anything. anyone who actually would bother waiting for you to get all revives and proper gear will surely not mind teleporting around blood moor for 2-3 minutes until your revives are gone. leaving moor = loss. without revives you are nothing.
and we both know summons are useless in pubs since you are bound to run into more than one element. basically you even admit yourself that you have to run to revive new kind of monsters as soon as a different char enters the game.
not only are summoners laughably boring to play (like any crapchar that relies on prebuf but 10 times worse), they are also useless against any competent dueler who actually bothers "dueling" them. isn't it annoying having to revive your merc for 50k and rise a new army for 2-3 minutes whenever you die in pubs? or you make sure to leave whenever someone who doesn't suck enters?

[morotsjos]

It's impossible for a bvc to beat a bone wall camping necro with summon stack and iron maiden. FACT.
it's impossible for anyone to beat pallies that medicharge to cold plains 24/7.
it's impossible for anyone to beat anything that teleports to cold plains 24/7.
it's impossible for anyone to beat barbs who hide in houses 24/7.
what's your point?

[De4dEyE]

it's impossible for anyone to beat pallies that medicharge to cold plains 24/7.
it's impossible for anyone to beat anything that teleports to cold plains 24/7.
it's impossible for anyone to beat barbs who hide in houses 24/7.
what's your point?

IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO KILL AKARA. SHE JUST KEEPS JUVING.

But yeah. Summoners aren't very good. Things with splash damage will own most of the summons [and many times the necro himself] and even if you get immune revives, it's only 3 minutes till they poof and you're stuck with skeles again.

[AtTheDriveIn]

Heres what My Summoner does for PvP

Merc- Infinity
Me- Lvl 47 summons
Cast life tap + tele around
17 psn/fire/cold/lite mages drain your life like no other when you have -150 resist all from lower resist and conviction...

If they have 150 stack res and sorb, then my 870 dmg skeles with revives will take care of the rest.

Hes not even pvp, does ubers and finds keys.

[Ce Olba]

Heres what My Summoner does for PvP

Merc- Infinity
Me- Lvl 47 summons
Cast life tap + tele around
17 psn/fire/cold/lite mages drain your life like no other when you have -150 resist all from lower resist and conviction...

If they have 150 stack res and sorb, then my 870 dmg skeles with revives will take care of the rest.

Hes not even pvp, does ubers and finds keys.

Tell me, how do you cast 2 curses at the same time ( life tpa and lower resistances )?

Also, your -resistances do not matter as long as the BvC is in your screen, as he can still lifetap and whirl you. That heals more than what you will ever deal damage.

[DarkMousy]

Summoners blow. Period. BMing a summoner is too easy, and because sumoners use immune vives against elemental characters, and almost rely on maiden against smiters/wwbarbs/kickers, there's absolutely no reason why they can't bm you back. Lifetap > maiden, cloak of shadows + holy freeze > summoners, infinity + lower res wand > immunes, etc. And at the end of the day, 3 min > you. Summoners are 100% useless without vives, so if someone waits out your vives, you're screwed.

anti summoner techniques:

Smiter - get a lifetap wand or wear marrows. Once tapped, their maiden is useless, easy kill. If phys immune vives, either wait 3 min or flash holy freeze, namelock tele smite out of summons. Necro will go down before you do. If you're actually smiting him, any damage you take from the monsters you'll gain back off the necro through tap.

BVC - same as above. Physical immune vives = you can tele-zerk as most summoners have no block and die easily. Furthermore, if he has skellies too, tele ww him anyways, if they're tapped you'll heal off the skellies. Howl also works on summons, lol. Teleport around with 2 hotos + arach + fcr ring and howl, and watch the summoner run because his minions won't touch you.

Hdin - Desynch and form hammer fields. He shouldn't be able to touch you. If he doesn't maiden you, feel free to tele-smite him out of his minions and hammer to death.

Windy - If you lose to a summoner on a windy, you shouldn't be playing a windy.

FB sorc - Splash damage > necros. If he has enough immune vives, wait it out until they die, or get a convic merc + lower res wand.

Blizz sorc - See above. Glacial spike also rapes the skellies. Teleporting into a blizz even with vive stack may still kill you.

Light sorc - Chain lightning and charged bolt fields are your best friends. Works even better with infinity merc, break those lightning immunes.

Orber - Orb > Summon necros. Shouldn't be hard to figure out why.

Kicker - Throw on doom, cast cloak of shadows. Summons will literally not move lol. If he maidens you, simply stunlock and hold the lock until maiden dies off (should be a few seconds because of fade) and then talon to death. If you sit in a pentagon of WOF, he can't do anything to you.

Ghost WWsin - see above. Cloak of shadows helps you enough that you can stunlock the necro with ease. If you sit in a pentagon of WOF, he can't do **** to you. If he teleports around trying to harass you with mages, mindblast his ***, don't necessarily trap, just annoy him with mb. The moment he teleports on you he's dead.

Trapper - see above. Trap him down, mb him out of minions, and rape. If he sorbs, get a different character or kill him with fireblast.

FOH/FOH variant (mage, t/v etc.) - If you're any good, you can namelock him from within his summons while desynching around.

Auradin - Run around, lol.

Bowazon - Throw on Delerium, spray multi and hope for the ctc to kick in... if it does the necro will be killed by his own summons lol.

Poison necro - Probably the easiest way to kill a summon nec. Nova goes through summons.

Bone necro - A good bone necro will decrep your minions and spearlock you. If he has a holy freeze merc and vives as well, telestomping with decrep'd minions = you die.

@ AtTheDriveIn:
150 stack res + sorb is nothing if you have good resist scs and good gear. Even a simple jeweled wizzy or kiras is overkill for 150 res stack. Then again, you could just fade too and gain res + dr.

[morotsjos]

thanks for proving my point to all the stubborn summoner-fanboys

[Camden]

thanks for proving my point to all the stubborn summoner-fanboys

Lozl don't diss my gosu gosu gosu gosu gosu gosu gosu favorite class or I be mani mad @ u ^ ^; izi n4p

[Eilo Rytyj]

With all this ranting and raving, do you think we've learned something?


Summoner necro is king of pvm, but has no place in the duelling world.

[DIEnamic]

anti summoner techniques:

Smiter - get a lifetap wand or wear marrows. Once tapped, their maiden is useless, easy kill. If phys immune vives, either wait 3 min or flash holy freeze, namelock tele smite out of summons. Necro will go down before you do. If you're actually smiting him, any damage you take from the monsters you'll gain back off the necro through tap.

true

BVC - same as above. Physical immune vives = you can tele-zerk as most summoners have no block and die easily. Furthermore, if he has skellies too, tele ww him anyways, if they're tapped you'll heal off the skellies. Howl also works on summons, lol. Teleport around with 2 hotos + arach + fcr ring and howl, and watch the summoner run because his minions won't touch you.

true

Hdin - Desynch and form hammer fields. He shouldn't be able to touch you. If he doesn't maiden you, feel free to tele-smite him out of his minions and hammer to death.

semi-true; hammer fields wont do anything unless you have the balls to namelock charge him out of minion stack and into your hammer field (which last like 5 seconds). I haven't seen it done before, but other than charging around with medi for 3 mins this is really the only way to win.

Windy - If you lose to a summoner on a windy, you shouldn't be playing a windy.

not so much a technique, but rather comes down to namelock skills. the only reason why I would choose not to fight a windy is the fact that they WILL get under your itchies and hell swarms and kill skeles. without skeles its pretty obvious who wins.

FB sorc - Splash damage > necros. If he has enough immune vives, wait it out until they die, or get a convic merc + lower res wand.

my summoner in particular has decent bone spear to deal with this scenario. the merc won't last in a duel, so infinity is not an option.

Blizz sorc - See above. Glacial spike also rapes the skellies. Teleporting into a blizz even with vive stack may still kill you.

completely false. barring they have an infin merc with them, which is no problem to get rid of. its an easy duel for summoner. It would take like 5 or 6 straight glacial spikes to kill skeles and they regen the health right up if you keep teleing. blizz does nothing as long as you got the right minions. blizz sorcs also tend to be fragile to the point where a quick namelock tele ends it.

Light sorc - Chain lightning and charged bolt fields are your best friends. Works even better with infinity merc, break those lightning immunes.

false. unless the sorc itself is carrying infinity, which means its easy pickin with their low cast rate and lower life. without infinity I don't see a light sorc winning this. charged bolt fields don't work, but apparently chain light does. this is easily fixable by reviving more immunes then.

Orber - Orb > Summon necros. Shouldn't be hard to figure out why.

never. orber will never beat a summoner because orb does not hit more than the top minion. I've dueled numerous orbers and unless theres something you know that I don't, no dice.

Kicker - Throw on doom, cast cloak of shadows. Summons will literally not move lol. If he maidens you, simply stunlock and hold the lock until maiden dies off (should be a few seconds because of fade) and then talon to death. If you sit in a pentagon of WOF, he can't do anything to you.

true. just like vs any sin, mind blast and/or cloak of shadows will gimp skeles.

Ghost WWsin - see above. Cloak of shadows helps you enough that you can stunlock the necro with ease. If you sit in a pentagon of WOF, he can't do **** to you. If he teleports around trying to harass you with mages, mindblast his ***, don't necessarily trap, just annoy him with mb. The moment he teleports on you he's dead.

true, but ghost are much more fragile than a kicker. amp and tele on top would decimate a wwsin. all is not lost in this matchup.

Trapper - see above. Trap him down, mb him out of minions, and rape. If he sorbs, get a different character or kill him with fireblast.

same as above, but for sure he can not tank the skeles. unless the trapper has a quick reaction and is able to pinpoint his mindblast before the necro namelock teles. mind blast is very annoying as a summoner, but keep in mind a good summoner would have a backup plan such as bone spear and just outrange a trapper.

FOH/FOH variant (mage, t/v etc.) - If you're any good, you can namelock him from within his summons while desynching around.

stack a ton of light resist so you don't get your *** one clicked. maiden if hes a v/t. decrep makes it VERY difficult to desync, but not impossible. 0 def while hes charging around, so its a field day for your skeles if you can get in front of him.

Auradin - Run around, lol.

decrep and sorb... if hes good (or laggy) enough to survive, make a trip to akara before skeles give in. it takes like 10 pulses or so from a gg auradin to kill skeles.

Bowazon - Throw on Delerium, spray multi and hope for the ctc to kick in... if it does the necro will be killed by his own summons lol.

thats quite interesting and I like your idea. thankfully I haven't faced this yet but I do applaud your creativity.

Poison necro - Probably the easiest way to kill a summon nec. Nova goes through summons.

to most peoples suprise, it actually doesn't. it hits the poison immunes and does nothing. rabies is similiar, however since rabies keeps reinfecting target periodically, it will spread if you tele before the infected minion is dead.

Bone necro - A good bone necro will decrep your minions and spearlock you. If he has a holy freeze merc and vives as well, telestomping with decrep'd minions = you die.

impossible. bone necro can never beat a summoner in under 3 mins, even if its a block necro it'll still get owned despite minions being decrepped. holy freeze merc is a minor nuisance, but a namelock tele usually results in massive damage to the nec and a merc kill.

spear does no damage to wailing beast MI, or at the very least you can revive many very high hp monsters and force him to whittle the monsters down one by one.

[morotsjos]

Lozl don't diss my gosu gosu gosu gosu gosu gosu gosu favorite class or I be mani mad @ u ^ ^; izi n4p
barb > druid btw

[Camden]

barb > druid btw

Blasphemy :(

[mainaman]

barb > druid btw
too bad there is no BvC on ladder that can beat hid druid ft5

@ Camden iso practice against your druid and necro...

[Camden]

too bad there is no BvC on ladder that can beat hid druid ft5

@ Camden iso practice against your druid and necro...

Well keep in mind there aren't as many good bvcs on ladder as there are on nl (i don't have a nl druid yet :()

I'm on *seraphic3 if you wanna duel

[Ce Olba]

Well keep in mind there aren't as many good bvcs on ladder as there are on nl (i don't have a nl druid yet :()

I'm on *seraphic3 if you wanna duel

And that statement is based on what? People on Ladder are generally worse due to one thing or another, so the players there look better than what they would look on NL.

And of course there are more BvCs on Ladder, since everything on Non-Ladder costs like hell.

But in the end, all the best players are more on NL than on Ladder. I only know a few good EUSCNL players who play on the Ladder right now, and they do it just to own the Ladder.

And didn't mcm beat a huge bunch of Ladder smiters and V/Ts right after the Ladde reset?

[Camden]

And that statement is based on what? People on Ladder are generally worse due to one thing or another, so the players there look better than what they would look on NL.

And of course there are more BvCs on Ladder, since everything on Non-Ladder costs like hell.

But in the end, all the best players are more on NL than on Ladder. I only know a few good EUSCNL players who play on the Ladder right now, and they do it just to own the Ladder.

And didn't mcm beat a huge bunch of Ladder smiters and V/Ts right after the Ladde reset?

You basically just reiterated my point. I was stating that I haven't had a druid on nonladder yet. Thus I haven't dueled the top barbs yet, though most of them like luis and donny and EAP_ have quit. So til then I'm not going to state me > barbs.

And I used to be purely on east nonladder before the account I shared was stolen. And I originally was on europe nonladder before I moved to the states. So it's not at all "Players just looking better to me"