View Full Version : T/V or Mage?
Ok, I gathered up equipment for making a v/t or t/v, but i'm starting to think that a mage would be a fun build as well. Well i've been milling over this for about a week, and I've starting pulling out my hair. I already started leveling the char, and am getting close to making some skill pt commitments. I was also thinking considering going the t/v route, but not running fanat and just running holy freeze in smiter mod (w/ current gear, i still hit 6fpa w/o fanat).
So, I'm looking for a well balanced char, but i think both a t/v and a mage does that. Any opinions out there? Maybe I should just flip a coin :undecided: .
I´d say mage. Newbs can be killed with FoH and those who stack are a bit weaker since they have to substitude some piece of gear (well, at least 95% have). And foh is autoaimed :)
T/V. Mage have many exploitable weaknesses from the hammerside (ES sorc, wind druid, Trappers) for which the FoH side doesn't really compensate.
What’s your guys thoughts on maxing charge instead of smite. I’ll most likely alternate between charging and tele as I drop the foh’es. If I’m charging around w/ a lvl 43 charge, I will always have the option of ramming some peeps that thing I’m ur avg. everyday foher. I’d be using grief pb as main wep, so with a 1 pt smite I can still pull of some decent smite dmg w/ max holyshield.
T/V. Mage have many exploitable weaknesses from the hammerside (ES sorc, wind druid, Trappers) for which the FoH side doesn't really compensate.
not really cuz sure es sorcs can tank but this is a problem for other hammers not just a mage, yet u still see hammer take down sorcs? The Es is only really a prob if u have a weak hammer. Trappers is a weakness but able to be beat.
Windy if ur good it can be a 50/50 chance.
But with V/t although smite is good an all u will still have problems with hammers/ hammer vairents, mage. Libby, Windy can still beat a smiter or smiter varient pretty consistantly, so that leaves u vs Es sorc and trappers, yeah a V/t will definetly do better here Es not to sure.
But its not just this u have to think across the board a Barb or mele will have an easier time creaming a V/T T/V than a mage due to the fact of hammer dmg, high unresistable etc.
Also mage still has the ability to become a 1 point libby, i do this with a grief or something in the stash vs trappers and i still have hammer, foh and decent charge dmg.
But its not just this u have to think across the board a Barb or mele will have an easier time creaming a V/T T/V than a mage due to the fact of hammer dmg, high unresistable etc.
I thought this a while back, but after making a 1pt holy shield libby, I found out that good barbs could tear me up, do to lack of def. On the other hand, my foh'er had maxed holy shield and would avoid hits from other melee fairly well. IMO, v/t=high def and mage=mediocre def ... given what i've read up on mages so far. I'm thinking that fast chars w/ high ar would be tough opponents, e.g. chargers, tele/smite, ww barbs, ww sins if i were to make a mage.
I thought this a while back, but after making a 1pt holy shield libby, I found out that good barbs could tear me up, do to lack of def. On the other hand, my foh'er had maxed holy shield and would avoid hits from other melee fairly well. IMO, v/t=high def and mage=mediocre def ... given what i've read up on mages so far. I'm thinking that fast chars w/ high ar would be tough opponents, e.g. chargers, tele/smite, ww barbs, ww sins if i were to make a mage.
true V/T has the higher defence but talking from a a BvC point of view, i would easily take my chances over a V/T than a mage most smiters will lose to a barb or something and this is fact, and from my BvC setup i can stack u and still keep high dr while ur left with a weaker smite than a pure smiter.
Mage u can atleast walk with 10k hammer which is far more efficent than anything and i personally never have trouble with tele smite or chargers as desync hammers > smiter+ charger i would say 8/10 times.
where as a V/T can still get flattened by a good smiter, or a vidicator/Savior which has high stack ability nuilfying foh etc. Then u still need the skill to beat a decent barb, vs non stackers its easy but vs well built and ppl knowing what to do it's not so viable.
Basically anything hammer has a much easier time vs mele than a smiter would, cuz like i said a few build u would have to be a top smiter or good to get consistant win results.
conor rocks
16-09-2006, 00:43
How would you get 10k hammer?
Mage. You can negate both builds' FoH, but you can't negate hammers. Smite can be reduced/ran away from/minion stacked against/etc etc. I would think unless you're godly at NLing a Windy would run over a T/V. Mages have difficult fights against windys too, but not as retarded as a smiter vs windy..
Dennis_KoreanGuy
16-09-2006, 01:33
Mage. If anything I'd prefer V/T over T/V.
How would you get 10k hammer?
That is hard to pull off with a Mage. 8K Hammers is considered fine. I have 8/5.5 on mine.
Mage. If anything I'd prefer V/T over T/V.
That is hard to pull off with a Mage. 8K Hammers is considered fine. I have 8/5.5 on mine.
mine does 9k+ hammer 5k+ foh vs casters with that setup and 10k and 4.5k on mele.
And like said i would take the V/T over T/V cuz iu atleast have decent smite compared to a high foh and weak smite dmg, meaning u get stacked ur in serious trouble.
Again the dmg requires the lvls + good stating as well, as u can see i tilited highly toward hammer cuz 8k foh or not if ur stacked its still rendered useless and it makes more sense to have a 9-10k hammer as backup than be stuck with a 6k hammer vs a barb or high life builds etc.
kk..
Leaning towards mage now. I ran some numbers with:
hoto,griffs, arachs, bk, raven/soj,arachs,treks,pally ammy w/20 fcr,bloodfists, hoz, pcombs+torch+anni, nigma
and got... 8.9k hammers, 4.5k foh, 125fcr
@ 100skillpts (lvl89)
sound about right?
RetroStar
16-09-2006, 02:53
T/V > V/T in pubs. The difference in smite dmg for both builds is minimal so I'll take a 5-6k foh over a 3-4k one. Most don't really stack enough light resist.
Also smite is unblockable so a decent smite is enough.
For starters T/V > Mage but eventually as you get better, mage is near unstoppable.
Dennis_KoreanGuy
16-09-2006, 04:21
IMO Mage > vt, tv. Any opponent who's icky to hammer or foh with (trapper, windies, etc) can be solved with grief charge.
RetroStar
16-09-2006, 05:51
IMO Mage > vt, tv. Any opponent who's icky to hammer or foh with (trapper, windies, etc) can be solved with grief charge.
mage is probably king of paladins but extremely difficult to master.
i always wanted to make a mage but it is awfully expensive for it to be able to deal normal damage, im talking pcoms ><
sic halo can you send me your mage layout w equip thanks
i always wanted to make a mage but it is awfully expensive for it to be able to deal normal damage, im talking pcoms ><
sic halo can you send me your mage layout w equip thanks
yeah sure il send my exact build just give me some time
True Retro but the ppl that do stack and still keep DR, ur left with a pathetic smite and i believe u still can be dead meat to a V/S or normal pure smiter well equipped and Barb etc.
for me i think mage>V/T>T/V
But then again most ppl in pubs suck when it come to stacking so i can see the the reason for T/V > V/T.
KaythonXE
17-09-2006, 01:58
Mages are pathetic.
conor rocks
17-09-2006, 05:49
Mages are pathetic.
No one cares about your opinion. At least we arn't saying hammerdin>all like you are.
KaythonXE
17-09-2006, 12:59
Mages are very weak, considering the fact that once you get them to stack lightning resistances you aren't making them neglect gear ready for your hammer damage. -_-
Mages are very weak, considering the fact that once you get them to stack lightning resistances you aren't making them neglect gear ready for your hammer damage. -_-
Well firstly it depends how u build the mage, if u build toward foh say, fictional numbers like 8k foh and 6 k hammer if u get stacked ur left with a mediocre/poor hammer dmg.
However if u build toward hammer which most tend to do, i.e 5k ish foh and 9-10 k hammer if ur opponment stacks u chances are, to use stack gear he has to be weakened some where, i.e lower dmg, lower hp etc, while i still have a standard 10k hammer, which is enought to take care most opponments fast.
KaythonXE
17-09-2006, 13:08
Funny how you attribute a slight decrease in the other player's effectiveness to a high decrease in actual hammer effectiveness. 15k > 9-10k.
Funny how you attribute a slight decrease in the other player's effectiveness to a high decrease in actual hammer effectiveness. 15k > 9-10k.
lol none of the top hammerdins in duel i see use a 15k hammer most are arround 11-13k ish hammer as the general style is 3-4 combats at most res is life/res scs and fhr scs.
In some ways mage is inferior to pure hammer but in other areas it still makes up ground, this is why u don't see a 15k-16k pure hammer cuz res stack and life charms are used giving the ability to reduce gear change and losing more dmg.
Not only will u lose hp but also the stack ability, this is why a good mage runs quite expensive as seeing as ur using pcs to build both foh + hammer u need to ideally be running pcs with life to get back some of the potential hp loss and u also have to try and deck the rest of ur inventry out with life/res scs to make up some stack gear.
And i find mage more efficent if the person does not stack which is wot happens in most pubs excluding a few that will have stack gear.
KaythonXE
17-09-2006, 13:38
15k damage is the optimal aim. All the good hammerdins will use this, as they will be using high life pcombs. The less expensive setup would be pcombs with 20 life scs. 15k is a good damage, making it so you can only tank 2-3 and not 3-4 hammers on a high life character.
15k damage is the optimal aim. All the good hammerdins will use this, as they will be using high life pcombs. The less expensive setup would be pcombs with 20 life scs. 15k is a good damage, making it so you can only tank 2-3 and not 3-4 hammers on a high life character.
Yes dmg is important but u have to think about other aspects as well, with a good inventry with res stack etc, ur less vulnerable to foh + blizz, u have more hp, also minimal gear changes which is good without sacrificing too much dmg.
So say we have 2 hammers layed out;
hammer one;
4.3k hp
using pcs full of high hp mods say 30-40s + some fhr pcs
15k hammer dmg
50% stack on inventry (10 spaces left due to skillers + torch and anni)
then hammer two;
4.7k +
3-4 good pcs
12k dmg
130 res stack on inventry (rest filled with fhr,scs and life with res mods)
U see the difference in stats?
These are just number but most agree a hammer can break 5k hp do arround 12k -13k dmg, have high stack on all res, making them very efficent despite the dmg difference, the only battle i understand where dmg really matter is hammer vs hammer.
Ps those are some builds i ran through in SP.
...
Can you make some room in your PM box? :wink3:
thx.
conor rocks
17-09-2006, 19:42
15k damage is the optimal aim. All the good hammerdins will use this, as they will be using high life pcombs. The less expensive setup would be pcombs with 20 life scs. 15k is a good damage, making it so you can only tank 2-3 and not 3-4 hammers on a high life character.
What happens when an foher comes and you have to switch out your shieldand your damage drops, when you could of instead had 20/11 scs and you wouldn't have too? Next your going to say hammerdins with 75 fcr are better than 125's:rolleyes: .
KaythonXE
17-09-2006, 19:55
When an foher comes I slap on tgods 2x wisps and a res shield and put on grief pb so that he does no damage to me and I kill him. If he happens to still damage my res, I have salvation. I just made a hammerdin on ladder, he sucks hardcore, but I'm destroying games. He has 18% dr, 7.6k damage, 6k defense, 2.4k life. And I'm still wrecking many a BvC, necro, and windy.
conor rocks
17-09-2006, 20:07
Dude I have a mage with 125 fcr 6.5k hammers and 3k foh which sucks balls and still kill alot of people.
Ladder dueling? lawl............
Ok. Update. I went the mage route. Level 88 now, 8.9k hammers and 4.6k foh, 125fcr, 3k life. 15 or so stats left.
Gear:
24/19 griffs
Sup AP nigma
Arachs
Eth Treks
Magefists
1 pally, 20 fcr, mana, mana regen, 18 allres ammy
1 SOJ, 1 BK
Upped 195 Hoz w/ res/ias jewel (changing out for facet tonight)
9 plain pcombs, 2 allres/fhr scs, a few all res scs, a few 20 life scs
high anni and torch
Bare in mind that I’m still getting used to the keys. A lot diff from my bvc, wwsin, javazon. That’s prolly been my biggest challenge is just controlling him correctly.
So far the biggest problem are es sorcies and trappers. Is there a good up to date guide/thread on duelin mage vs. theses classes? So far I like him but sheezus I’m gonna need a lot of practice. I’m shooting for lvl 91-92 to get hammers around 10k, then I’ll be satisfied. Once I get another light facet in my hoz, foh should be closer to 5k. Pretty fun char to play, plus you turn some heads when u go hammers for 5 min of a pub and then foh some unsuspecting poor bastard.
Ok. Update. I went the mage route. Level 88 now, 8.9k hammers and 4.6k foh, 125fcr, 3k life. 15 or so stats left.
Gear:
24/19 griffs
Sup AP nigma
Arachs
Eth Treks
Magefists
1 pally, 20 fcr, mana, mana regen, 18 allres ammy
1 SOJ, 1 BK
Upped 195 Hoz w/ res/ias jewel (changing out for facet tonight)
9 plain pcombs, 2 allres/fhr scs, a few all res scs, a few 20 life scs
high anni and torch
Bare in mind that I’m still getting used to the keys. A lot diff from my bvc, wwsin, javazon. That’s prolly been my biggest challenge is just controlling him correctly.
So far the biggest problem are es sorcies and trappers. Is there a good up to date guide/thread on duelin mage vs. theses classes? So far I like him but sheezus I’m gonna need a lot of practice. I’m shooting for lvl 91-92 to get hammers around 10k, then I’ll be satisfied. Once I get another light facet in my hoz, foh should be closer to 5k. Pretty fun char to play, plus you turn some heads when u go hammers for 5 min of a pub and then foh some unsuspecting poor bastard.
Nice try to shoot for as high lvl u can get as u need as many points as possible i stoped at 93 but i may try soon to lvl some more.
Hp on this build is surprisingly harder to get to arround 4k u have to use alot of pc lifers etc.
Also vs ES u can do 1 or 2 things;
1. u can tank the sorc by simply fohing till the es shield breaks which will equal instant death, can work if u have enough max res say vs a fire or cold sorc again depending as blizz is very dangerous, light however is harder to tank as without alot of max res ans absorb a few lucky high dmg rolls can = fast death.
2. Use foh for momentary stun and simply tele hammer, this is quite a hard monevour to pull off but is very effective use of name locking can help alot.
3. Trapper, desync is the best chance, 9/10 u will need a tg atleast for this, namelock tele hammer etc can help and looking for foh openings. Bu mb etc is still a prob and i also recommend upping ur fhr bp from 48% base which u may get from stash to 86% using spirit.
Bu mb etc is still a prob and i also recommend upping ur fhr bp from 48% base which u may get from stash to 86% using spirit.
I'd luuuv to get there, not just for mb/trap stun lock, but those damn fbolts can be a real whore as well.
Any recommendations? :hang:
I guess the options are down to fhr pcomb's or.. fhr pcomb's.
If I could get my hands on a 2/20 ammy, I could ditch the bk and use a fcr/mana ring then get a fhr/caster belt. I would assume that pcombs w/ fhr are sickly priced so a belt would be ideal.
I'd luuuv to get there, not just for mb/trap stun lock, but those damn fbolts can be a real whore as well.
Any recommendations? :hang:
I guess the options are down to fhr pcomb's or.. fhr pcomb's.
If I could get my hands on a 2/20 ammy, I could ditch the bk and use a fcr/mana ring then get a fhr/caster belt. I would assume that pcombs w/ fhr are sickly priced so a belt would be ideal.
I use 4x pc w fhr to make up the bp as i don't want to relly on sands for the 20% fhr as i use waterwalks + i may switch in res boots or hots so rellying on those boots is not so great, especally if like me u use a hoz sometimes u will end up dropping a bp.
Sadly they can be and depending on realm, price wise with the pcs i paid something close if not more than some of my pcs with 30 hp and i found the fhr pcs very hard to get and trade for.
conor rocks
19-09-2006, 04:07
Versus Es sorcs just have charge and keep charging in circles with hammers and foh.
can the dmg from a base lvl charge, grief zerker, and a lot of hard points in vigor be strong enough to fight windys and trappers and es sorcs?. is vigor a passive synergy to charge?
conor rocks
19-09-2006, 07:47
For mage or v/t?
U could 1 point fana for when u use grief, but vs Es the desync hammer does not work so efficently unless u land consecutive hits, as the sorc could take one hammer, it does not break the ES and they tele around while they get back to max mana and ur back to square one so maybe a desync some fohs, and a tele hammer to work.
I have about 10k with my mage, and 5.1k foh.
It is all about how you place your skills.
Dont just max the skills, as it isnt the most efficent way.
Every mage I know has differant skill placements, this is the reason I made a mage for the semi uniqueness to it.
Btw, 75fcr or 125?
Where’d everyone put there skill pts?
I added 1 to each skill, synergy, etc. all the way up to 100 pts to get the max dmg; this is what I did:
11 FOH, 15 Holy Shock, 1 Conviction
17 Blessed Hammer, 20 Vigor, 15 Blessed Aim, 5 Concentrate
Gungak, I run 125% if that question was for me.
Gungak, remember who youre gonna duel ^^, several harsh lessons were needed for me to find out that mobility > raw damage.
Mythatic
10-12-2006, 11:42
Mages are pretty decent to play with, but keep in mind that you'll have SOOOO low DR that it'd be pretty ez for BvCs, Necros, Wind Druid to beat you.
Other than that, I'd say V/T > Mages, the most versatille build when building a Pvp gm non-melee build. High DR(stackable), High resists(Stackable with grief or with aura), Good smite damage, and a small little clip of Foh when opponent trying to run back to town with 5 life left...
Stacked resists Liberators/Hammerdin can beat Mages pretty easily too.
Considering higher damage Charge from libby, and negated FoH will leave you as a weak version of a hammerdin, which the damage can reach up to 10k-11k(<---is max 10k?)
This is assuming when Mage and Liberator both have Griefs on charge.
Mage is a pretty fun build however, for more efficiency...V/T, IMHO is better
V/T > Mage, but Mage more fun, V/T gets boring...
Funny how you attribute a slight decrease in the other player's effectiveness to a high decrease in actual hammer effectiveness. 15k > 9-10k.
Sry sir my mage have probably dmg close to your hammer or even higher if you put on 2*wisp+tg+stack. And one more thing if you want to play bm i can play bm with oak too and belive me - mage has advantage in this duel couse of easy flash aura kill of your every single minion. how will you kill mine? by hammers? rotfl.
Sry all what you can do is drink + keep 3 screendistance + town run like all "pro" hammers do~~
Thoridian
10-12-2006, 16:02
When an foher comes I slap on tgods 2x wisps and a res shield and put on grief pb so that he does no damage to me and I kill him. If he happens to still damage my res, I have salvation. I just made a hammerdin on ladder, he sucks hardcore, but I'm destroying games. He has 18% dr, 7.6k damage, 6k defense, 2.4k life. And I'm still wrecking many a BvC, necro, and windy.
That made my day :D haha thanks for good laughs :D And the fact that u play ladder explains everything ;)
Sry sir my mage have probably dmg close to your hammer or even higher if you put on 2*wisp+tg+stack. And one more thing if you want to play bm i can play bm with oak too and belive me - mage has advantage in this duel couse of easy flash aura kill of your every single minion. how will you kill mine? by hammers? rotfl.
Sry all what you can do is drink + keep 3 screendistance + town run like all "pro" hammers do~~
Tell me, what minions would a hammerdin have? Those from Eternity?
And he clearly mentioned Grief, meaning he is likely to telesmite those fohers.
However, the difference is that Kaython's hammerdin is unable to do a 1v7 whereas the more popular hammerdin can.
And just a FYI, the best hammerdin on europe uses the setup with 2-4 pcombats and rest resistance scs with maximum life.
Wait, wasn't his stats like 11-12k hammers, 46% DR, 48% FHR, 125% FCR, close or over 5k life with ~150 stacked all resistances?
Tell me, what minions would a hammerdin have? Those from Eternity?
And he clearly mentioned Grief, meaning he is likely to telesmite those fohers.
However, the difference is that Kaython's hammerdin is unable to do a 1v7 whereas the more popular hammerdin can.
And just a FYI, the best hammerdin on europe uses the setup with 2-4 pcombats and rest resistance scs with maximum life.
Wait, wasn't his stats like 11-12k hammers, 46% DR, 48% FHR, 125% FCR, close or over 5k life with ~150 stacked all resistances?
oak from hoto, wolfs from crescent moon (not sure if spell it properly).
telesmite foher? joke? bah better joke is telesmite mage xD
Every single char can play 7v1 all depense on opponent skill.
who is this "best" hammerdin?
so im better then best since i got 11k hammer, 48 fhr, 125fcr, much more then 150 stack resistance and ~0.5k lower life with 2x life pcs AND 4+ foh dmg!!! and can get better stats if i made ffa build (mine is for 1v1 so i dont want to waste space for ffa gear and skill for ffa skills)-.-
oak from hoto, wolfs from crescent moon (not sure if spell it properly).
Oak is a joke. You cannot use two weapons on a Hammerdin, so blah it.
Every single char can play 7v1 all depense on opponent skill.
Actually, this is very incorrect. For example, an orber: try dueling a team with Salvation, Resist Cold, 2* ravens on each member, what else? Won't happen.
who is this "best" hammerdin?
Vic or Rip_TheJesus.
so im better then best since i got 11k hammer, 48 fhr, 125fcr, much more then 150 stack resistance and ~0.5k lower life with 2x life pcs AND 4+ foh dmg!!!
Sorry, the 150 was a quick calculation with assumptions of gear. And no, it does not count in Anyas. Also, it's only +all resistances.
Oak is a joke. You cannot use two weapons on a Hammerdin, so blah it.
oak will save you from first hit in hvh.
Actually, this is very incorrect. For example, an orber: try dueling a team with Salvation, Resist Cold, 2* ravens on each member, what else? Won't happen.
try to duel vs 3 windies + fb es precast sorcs + 2 bowa + supporter with hammer.
Vic or Rip_TheJesus.
you mean this wannabie who lack basic d2 knowledge, always play team vs one on pub, always try to bo kill or other bm tricks like juvs, oak or just townrunnig?
sry if he is best then im d2 god.
Sorry, the 150 was a quick calculation with assumptions of gear. And no, it does not count in Anyas. Also, it's only +all resistances.
probably it does not count even anni and torch^^
Dennis_KoreanGuy
10-12-2006, 23:54
oak will save you from first hit in hvh.
I think he was talking about how you can't have Crescent Moon + Hoto both to have the wolves + oak. but you do have Wisp however.
try to duel vs 3 windies + fb es precast sorcs + 2 bowa + supporter with hammer.
Olba was greatly exaggerating with the orber thing, but surely you understand his point. Hammerdin is the king of versatility, you agree no? And orber on the other hand can be way too easily negated. Yes, I agree, ofcourse anyone can wipe 1v7 with the right opponents, I once did so with a nec summoner with 7 bowers in game, called bowers only. Yes I was a fag. but orber, summoner, etc. can't sweep the pub considering the "usuals" as opponents. hammers, have the highest chance.
you mean this wannabie who lack basic d2 knowledge, always play team vs one on pub, always try to bo kill or other bm tricks like juvs, oak or just townrunnig?
sry if he is best then im d2 god.
Strangely, a lot of top players in d2 are very bm in pub and talk a lot of trash. :tongue:
Crazy Runner Guy
11-12-2006, 05:20
Where’d everyone put there skill pts?
I added 1 to each skill, synergy, etc. all the way up to 100 pts to get the max dmg; this is what I did:
11 FOH, 15 Holy Shock, 1 Conviction
17 Blessed Hammer, 20 Vigor, 15 Blessed Aim, 5 Concentrate
Gungak, I run 125% if that question was for me.
There's a rockstar FoH/hammer optimizer on another forum. Google.
crg
Strangely, a lot of top players in d2 are very bm in pub and talk a lot of trash. :tongue:
i know only 3 ppl who can be called top d2 players imo, and they rarely or never flame on pubs or play bm:
Dagon(bvc), Kazama-fury(werewolf), Moe(hybsin).
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