View Full Version : Are paladins the new PvP gods?
CaimDark
13-09-2006, 08:11
Long ago, in a galaxy far, far away... a bowazon with a buriza and a simple cleglaw's pincers was so powerful it made dueling them pointless, and not far behind in the power ladder were WW barbarian, who easily crushed everyone but bowazons. Now, while WW barbs can still hold their own, it looks like bowazons went from being vastly overpowered to vastly underpowered (*cough* enigma *cough...), and paladins seem to be the new PvP powerhouses. The new synergies system seems to greatly benefit them, and it looks like Charges, Hammerdins and FoHers can beat everyone else.
Is this true? Are paladins really the new PvP powers, or am I mistaken? If not, considering that blizzard appareanly doesn't like balanced duels and chooses a new power class from time to time, who's the new PvP superpower?
Long ago, in a galaxy far, far away... a bowazon with a buriza and a simple cleglaw's pincers was so powerful it made dueling them pointless, and not far behind in the power ladder were WW barbarian, who easily crushed everyone but bowazons. Now, while WW barbs can still hold their own, it looks like bowazons went from being vastly overpowered to vastly underpowered (*cough* enigma *cough...), and paladins seem to be the new PvP powerhouses. The new synergies system seems to greatly benefit them, and it looks like Charges, Hammerdins and FoHers can beat everyone else.
Is this true? Are paladins really the new PvP powers, or am I mistaken? If not, considering that blizzard appareanly doesn't like balanced duels and chooses a new power class from time to time, who's the new PvP superpower?
Firstly no not really i don't really think there is a king of pvp secondly, i can name chars that can flatten these,
Foh<Windy or anything with stack (BvC, ww-trapper,trapper)
hammer<Windy, BvC
Smiter< good BvC,Windy, some trapper
A mage can kill alot of chars but even that a nulified conviction and foh = normal hammer.
The most all round builds i know that can kill almost anything are bone necs, BvC, even a good hammer or hammer type hybrids, WW-trapper sins and some other sin varients.
Thoridian
13-09-2006, 16:15
A mage can kill alot of chars but even that a nulified conviction and foh = normal hammer.
weaker hammer* (depends on build tho)
weaker hammer* (depends on build tho)
I doubt there's ever a mage with all hammer synergies + conc + hammer maxed.
If you're comparing the 9 pcs mage hammer damage to 3 pcs + scs pure hammer damage, that's unfair.
HappyAssassin
13-09-2006, 17:03
Why's that unfair?
Anyway, Paladins aren't the kings of PvP, they've just gone from being a really underpowered class to one of the most powerful. A very well played Hammerdin or Smiter can beat anything, but there are other classes like that.
Note: Most of that beating is done my massive stack/sorbing.
Why's that unfair?
.
Well, it's because the Hammerdin is NOT using that specific gear. A Mage WILL NOT reach the damage a Hammerdin is capable of reaching.
Uhm, no?
Ofc a mage wont reach that, thats why they have foh. They expect it to be negated and most of time kill with there 7-9k hammers. 16k hammers is nice but an overkill to most except the high life builds.
I doubt there's ever a mage with all hammer synergies + conc + hammer maxed.
If you're comparing the 9 pcs mage hammer damage to 3 pcs + scs pure hammer damage, that's unfair.
lol thats impossible this is why a mage as said need all 9 pcs as apposed to 3-4 and rest life scs.
And yeah its does depend how the mage is built, 50/50 if stacked leaves with a crappy hammer, if u tilt ur mage towards foh more, i.e 8k foh ur left with a crap 6k hammer.
But i like alot of ppl built more on hammer so even vs mele im still walking with atleast 10k hammer and vs most 5k foh and 9k hammer.
However a well built hammer has the edge when it come to stacking over the mage as not only does it have more hp but scs with all res mods etc help hammer still reach high dmg and be well stacked up.
HappyAssassin
13-09-2006, 18:14
Just because a Mage can't achieve the same MAX hammer damage as a hammer pally doesnt mean that they can't achieve a very close EFFECTIVE damage. What a hammer pally has more of is life and resists. No top hammers use a 16k hammer anyway, it's utterly pointless in PvP.
Well, it's because the Hammerdin is NOT using that specific gear. A Mage WILL NOT reach the damage a Hammerdin is capable of reaching.
That's the point of building a mage, you're going to have a backup skill instead.. and the damage a hdin is capable of reaching is uneeded. The amount of damage a well-built mage can do with hammers is enough.
CaimDark
14-09-2006, 02:29
I don't think there is such a thing as overkill. For example, a hammerdin that deals 15000 damage will deal 2500 in PvP, not enough to kill some characters with a single hammer, and he may not have the chance to hit the second one.
I don't think there is such a thing as overkill. For example, a hammerdin that deals 15000 damage will deal 2500 in PvP, not enough to kill some characters with a single hammer, and he may not have the chance to hit the second one.
Are you kidding?
Romper Stomper
14-09-2006, 04:48
I've never seen a good hammerdin consistently beat a good es light/fire sorc without 10% or more max res and/or absorb. Though the only builds that don't have major problems with fire/light sorcs w/ only 75% res are BVCs, any claw block + master sin build, and wind druids. Everything else is too immobile or too mana dependent, and too vulnerable to linear projectiles.
blobswannabe
14-09-2006, 07:03
I've never seen a good hammerdin consistently beat a good es light/fire sorc without 10% or more max res and/or absorb. Though the only builds that don't have major problems with fire/light sorcs w/ only 75% res are BVCs, any claw block + master sin build, and wind druids. Everything else is too immobile or too mana dependent, and too vulnerable to linear projectiles.
you forgot about those "legit" aa fc zons without speed hack.
Romper Stomper
14-09-2006, 07:58
you forgot about those "legit" aa fc zons without speed hack.
legit fc = no chance. Too slow, sorc never has to be on same screen.
cheater fc = duh.
morotsjos
16-09-2006, 12:42
I've never seen a good hammerdin consistently beat a good es light/fire sorc without 10% or more max res and/or absorb. Though the only builds that don't have major problems with fire/light sorcs w/ only 75% res are BVCs, any claw block + master sin build, and wind druids. Everything else is too immobile or too mana dependent, and too vulnerable to linear projectiles.
how do druids with 75% res beat fb sorcs?
chessvampire
16-09-2006, 23:33
Smiter< good BvC,Windy, some trapper
no way. only hdin > smiter. everything else is easy or well matched.
no way. only hdin > smiter. everything else is easy or well matched.
Wow. No way in hell.
conor rocks
17-09-2006, 00:02
do mages only need 3 points in concentration?
KaythonXE
17-09-2006, 00:14
Hammerdin > V/t > Smiter > Fallen > Bvc
KaythonXE
17-09-2006, 00:31
I'm trying to get my hammerdin chaosed on ladder, so I can destroy all you mfarz.
conor rocks
17-09-2006, 00:35
More like BvC>hammerdin
KaythonXE
17-09-2006, 00:56
You realize you just said 6k attacks that require ar and can be 50% reduced are > 15k always hitting attacks?
no way. only hdin > smiter. everything else is easy or well matched.
lol im not so sure where u got that from, A windy can take a smiter, a BvC can take a smiter a traper u have a higher chance vs.
Oh hi Kaython :rolleyes:
i did not know fallens was that tough :rolleyes:
KaythonXE
17-09-2006, 01:11
Yeah they're hella' strong. BvCs are so easy to kill. it's funny.
You realize you just said 6k attacks that require ar and can be 50% reduced are > 15k always hitting attacks?
Rofl.
A BvC can easily have 7k Grief damage. As for Beast, ~2900.
Also, did I notice you that WW is a moving attack whereas hammers are a close-range non-moving, interruptable attack?
Also, only the crappier Hdins have 15kish damage. Good ones have amounts of life/resistance scs and ~11-12k damage.
KaythonXE
17-09-2006, 13:54
15k damage is the optimal choice. 8x pcombats with 45 life. Ez bvcs. :)
15k damage is the optimal choice. 8x pcombats with 45 life. Ez bvcs. :)
Eh. You show me a Hammerdin with 8* 45 life PCs? Oh wait, anything's possible on west and east..
Could you explain me why 15k would be the optimal damage choice? Still needs 3 hammers to kill a BvC.
Ignore, in the other thread i showed him a comparison to a hammer using a 15k hammer setup and a pala doing 12-13 k hammer, which has more stack, more life which = minimal gear change and still high effiecency. I don't see any hammer walk with 15k hammer in pvp.
KaythonXE
17-09-2006, 14:05
15k is a nice number.
So what's up with ladder? How come no one can chaos?
It maybe a good looking number but for wot its worth in pvp it just aint worth it unless its hammer vs hammer which is pointless imo.
Cuz u can build a much more sterdy hammer on 11-13k hammer dmg which can tank like a god, and still have high hp, good stack etc.
KaythonXE
17-09-2006, 14:28
15k is a leet number. And why can no one chaos. -_- No one in this game, has the ability to ladder chaos?
15k is a leet number. And why can no one chaos. -_- No one in this game, has the ability to ladder chaos?
Explain me what's so leet about 15k?
Heck, if you're looking to three-hit-kill a BvC, the optimal damage would be 13k. (13 000 * 0.17 * 3 = 6630). You can kill the welfare BvCs in three hits with 12k Hammers.
And 15k is not enough to kill a 10k SS druid in three hits. Heck, for that you would need 19500ish damage.
Beaten to the ground?
KaythonXE
17-09-2006, 14:52
5k damage after two hits = anything under 5k health dead in two hits. While, most other hammerdins have around 4.8k life, 12k hammers would require three hits. The ONLY difficult duel for a hammerdin is another hammerdin.
diablotradez
17-09-2006, 14:59
5k damage after two hits = anything under 5k health dead in two hits. While, most other hammerdins have around 4.8k life, 12k hammers would require three hits. The ONLY difficult duel for a hammerdin is another hammerdin.
bonenec with magic immune guantum beast revives = ezpk hammerdins
5k damage after two hits = anything under 5k health dead in two hits. While, most other hammerdins have around 4.8k life, 12k hammers would require three hits.
Most duelers have UNDER 5k life. The only ones that exceed it are paladins, barbarians and druids. Anything else is at most ~4900ish.
The ONLY difficult duel for a hammerdin is another hammerdin.
And this statement is (again) based on pure numbers?
bonenec with magic immune guantum beast revives = ezpk hammerdins
The hammerdin can just play defensive for 3 minutes and the revives will vanish. However, a bonemancer is superior to hammerdins due to having a tracking long-range attack instead of a high-damage short-range attack.
KaythonXE
17-09-2006, 15:10
Bonemancer cannot desynch and thus is inferior to a hammerdin.
Bonemancer cannot desynch and thus is inferior to a hammerdin.
And boneprison is a half-autoaiming skill that stops desynch. Also bonemancers beat way more melee people due to bonewalls, bone prisons, IM and bonearmor.
In TvTs the only use of a Hammerdin is to protect either a bonemancer or a bowazon.
In 1v1s, I've only constantly lost to 1 hammerdin (who's the best on EUSCNL) and I've constantly lost to at least 2 bonemancers (1 who knows me and my dueling very well, one who's unknown to me). And I haven't even dueled morotsjos' Bonemancer yet.
And when you look at the numbers, there are about 75% less bonemancers than Hammerdins.
diablotradez
17-09-2006, 15:33
revives gone after 3 minutes you just get more until hdin got bored and refuse to duel so you win.
try to desync in puddles with bonewalls
KaythonXE
17-09-2006, 15:34
Bonewalls and boneprisons never have stopped me from desynching. Bonemancers are garbage.
diablotradez
17-09-2006, 15:38
i give up someone got time go ahead and argue with him
Bonewalls and boneprisons never have stopped me from desynching. Bonemancers are garbage.
Oh please.
More "me me me" talk please, it's annoying.
Please try to desynch to such places as a house that's filled with bonewalls and there's a nice chain of bone spirits coming out of the door to the house. You teleport in, you die. You do not, you're auto-giving up.
And how the **** do you plan to desynch in a field of IBS and bonewalls without dying? Charge is too fast to be controlled well enough to be able to move flawlessly, as you cannot do round turns.
KaythonXE
17-09-2006, 15:56
I can do anything.
I can do anything.
And I'm God Almighty, so I can do more than you can.
What I'm trying to say is that you most likely have a superiority complex of somekind, thinking that you're superior to everyone. Well, you are free to think whatever you want, just do NOT put around false information, I'm tired of correcting it all the time.
moonlike
17-09-2006, 17:40
5k damage after two hits = anything under 5k health dead in two hits. While, most other hammerdins have around 4.8k life, 12k hammers would require three hits. The ONLY difficult duel for a hammerdin is another hammerdin.
i beat every hammerdin i meet with my windruid with plain skillers and wizzy +163 fcr (crap dmg and life) and for ur info best hammer on euro -ld cried that druid is imba vs hammer sory but i dont belive u can beat good druids
chessvampire
17-09-2006, 19:05
lol im not so sure where u got that from, A windy can take a smiter, a BvC can take a smiter a traper u have a higher chance vs.
Oh hi Kaython :rolleyes:
i did not know fallens was that tough :rolleyes:
where did i get that from? dueling for about 4 months with my smiter. thats where :)
75block on smiter with 5k+ life, 49dr that knows how to shift/tele smite > almost all barbs out there.
as for windies, just charging around and getting namelock = death for windy.
Uncle_Mike
17-09-2006, 19:38
where did i get that from? dueling for about 4 months with my smiter. thats where :)
75block on smiter with 5k+ life, 49dr that knows how to shift/tele smite > almost all barbs out there.
as for windies, just charging around and getting namelock = death for windy.
the bolded part is about the MINORITY of smiters to say the least
as far as kaython...don't feed the troll guys :thumbsup:
Mike
75block on smiter with 5k+ life, 49dr that knows how to shift/tele smite > almost all barbs out there.
Haven't meat a really good smiter (i'm not saying that i'm good, but i still remember how to duel against smiter:wink3: ), and they aren't really hard to kill.
If they charge & tele all the time, I just play more defensive. If they only namelock & smite in the same spot, I just ww near to them = death to smiter. :azn:
morotsjos
17-09-2006, 20:50
where did i get that from? dueling for about 4 months with my smiter. thats where :)
75block on smiter with 5k+ life, 49dr that knows how to shift/tele smite > almost all barbs out there.
as for windies, just charging around and getting namelock = death for windy.
4 months is nothing, just like your knowledge.
chessvampire
17-09-2006, 21:02
4 months is nothing, just like your knowledge.
:undecided: i guess you are right. but by any chance, do you have a bvc on ladder useast? if so whats ur acc? o.o
Dennis_KoreanGuy
17-09-2006, 21:41
I wouldn't call Paladins "PvP GoDs", but a class with Hammer, Smite, FoH, Charge, Holy Shield... coupled with Teleport / BO / etc. from items, it sure makes strong builds.
A game can't be completely balanced, with all the skill choices / item possibilities / dueling style, how would Blizzard / anyone guess any build will completely overpower the rest? Even making the classes evened out as it is right now, I'm thankful for.
If they do make a next patch, I'd like to see some more unused class builds like MA sins or etc. become more popular. It sounds weird now, but who would've guessed weak hammers would become so crazy in 09?
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