View Full Version : BvC
HappyAssassin
04-09-2006, 18:25
Okay. This needs to be brought up, and it needs its own thread, because it keeps coming up in other threads, and I wouldn't mind a resolution to it. I've noticed a lot of things on this forum since I've been here, and one of them is that it has a serious chubb for the BvC class. I have trouble finding a thread w/o a reference to their superiority, godliness, etc. Now, there are good BvCs. There are BvCs who beat just about everyone they face. But, I'm really, really tired of hearing how great the class is. The fact is, there are players of other classes who beat everyone they face. When people discuss the power or lack thereof of classes (and subclasses) on this forum, they tend to discuss them in terms of having decent gear, and decent players. For some reason, in the case of the BvCs, the player is assumed to be godly. I'm not sure why this is, but the emergence of threads like :" do you ww barbs ever got beaten," clearly shows that it is having an impact on the people who come here for advice.
So, I'm looking for some answers. In my experience, the best players are very good at their chosen build, and it is more their skill and less their build that lets them win. Why are BvCs portrayed as so godly? Even their proponents admit that they require great ability to be good. I'll take it a step further. Most BvCs are terrible. I can only assume that a portion of these are people who have searched the web for a good pvp guide and come across things like that horrendously inflated win % table for BvCs. Whenever this is mentioned, the response is "Well, those aren't REAL BvCs," but apparently there are only around 5 so called "real" BvCs per realm. How elite do you have to make the players before a class becomes good? How absurb would it be if we compared all classes on the basis of only the very best players? It has no relevence to any average gamer who comes here looking for information. I've seen build ideas shot down on this forum because it was said that a BvC would beat it, and a BvC has to be part of any imaginary pub. What are the odds that McM is going to be in any given pub? Why should ANYONE plan their character on the basis of that? Furthermore, since in the context of planning for Pubs the average BvC is a weak opponent, why do we consider only the godly BvCs "real?"
Imagine if we applied this attitude to all characters. Think of how many discussions have been derailed by someone (generally Ce Olba, but others as well) popping in and saying "A BvC would win in that situation because of "x". What's the point? What does it contribute? Imagine if all the skilled WWsin players on the forum did that. Then add in the skilled smiters. And the skilled Hammerdins. And Wolf Druids. And Elemental druids. Etc...etc...etc...
What if instead of constantly advocating this one class as so superior, we just treat them like any other class?
I agree. Cant think of anything else to say. :laugh:
So ill just shut up now...
I honestly couldn't have said that better myself. Kudos to you on the very comprehensive and accurate post.
I completely agree with the attitude that 'BvC owns all here' and it kind of does deter me from reading or posting in this sub-forum. I will admit there are probably some very solid BvC players, but in your average Pub game - most BvC builds do not dominate. Lack of skill, or use, or charms or whatever excuse you give them, they aren't the best.
While the build does have some great aspects (a good BO, Leap, WW. among other really strong skills) other classes do have some great aspects as well.
You are right with this:
the best players are very good at their chosen build, and it is more their skill and less their build that lets them win
While there are many BvC supporters here, I think we should all realize that it IS the skill of the player and less so the build that makes for a win. Not always, but most of the time.
Kudos!
Arbedark
04-09-2006, 18:43
Wooo, spoken like the true Assassin Fanatic you are :thumbsup:
I myself think this is 100% true, accurate whatever you want to call it. This BvC pimping needs to be toned down to a reasonable level.
However this is unlikely to happen.
Okay. This needs to be brought up, and it needs its own thread, because it keeps coming up in other threads, and I wouldn't mind a resolution to it. I've noticed a lot of things on this forum since I've been here, and one of them is that it has a serious chubb for the BvC class. I have trouble finding a thread w/o a reference to their superiority, godliness, etc. Now, there are good BvCs. There are BvCs who beat just about everyone they face. But, I'm really, really tired of hearing how great the class is. The fact is, there are players of other classes who beat everyone they face. When people discuss the power or lack thereof of classes (and subclasses) on this forum, they tend to discuss them in terms of having decent gear, and decent players. For some reason, in the case of the BvCs, the player is assumed to be godly. I'm not sure why this is, but the emergence of threads like :" do you ww barbs ever got beaten," clearly shows that it is having an impact on the people who come here for advice.
If you understand my talking as if I suspect all BvCs to be godly, you're wrong. I clearly say that most players of barbarians have no idea of how they're played, which gives them a bad image, thus making people think that BvCs suck, so we have to bring up the good players to shut up the ones who think that based on their experience vs. random BvCs they can judge the whole class.
Why are BvCs portrayed as so godly? Even their proponents admit that they require great ability to be good. I'll take it a step further. Most BvCs are terrible.
BvCs are portrayed as godly only when weak people say that they own all BvCs when they really haven't faced the better BvCs. And yes, most barbarians in PvP are horrible.
Whenever this is mentioned, the response is "Well, those aren't REAL BvCs," but apparently there are only around 5 so called "real" BvCs per realm. How elite do you have to make the players before a class becomes good?
That's because BvCs are one of the classes which have only a bunch of good duelers whereas rest sucks. With smiters, for example, there are godly people, good people, crappy people, decent people, etc. This does not exist for BvCs.
How absurb would it be if we compared all classes on the basis of only the very best players? It has no relevence to any average gamer who comes here looking for information.
It depends from the information the gamer is looking for. If s/he is looking for a build, I will be one of the first to give it to them. If s/he is saying that BvCs suck based on his experience with pubs, I will be there with facts.
I've seen build ideas shot down on this forum because it was said that a BvC would beat it, and a BvC has to be part of any imaginary pub. What are the odds that McM is going to be in any given pub? Why should ANYONE plan their character on the basis of that? Furthermore, since in the context of planning for Pubs the average BvC is a weak opponent, why do we consider only the godly BvCs "real?"
Actually, mcm plays in a lot of pubgames. Whereas Luis only dueled in teams in private games versus good/godly people. And yes, BvCs have to be a part of an imaginary pub just as a Hammerdin, a Sorc and a Smiter too.
Imagine if we applied this attitude to all characters. Think of how many discussions have been derailed by someone (generally Ce Olba, but others as well) popping in and saying "A BvC would win in that situation because of "x". What's the point? What does it contribute?
Well, I just like things the way they are. Of course there are random factors such as lag, plain old luck, midjudgment, wrong gear, bad timing, bad prediction etc. Most of the time I compare characters with equal skill, knowledge and gear.
Imagine if all the skilled WWsin players on the forum did that. Then add in the skilled smiters. And the skilled Hammerdins. And Wolf Druids. And Elemental druids. Etc...etc...etc...
There are only a few characters that can do that constantly, mainly hammerdin, WWsin, Fury/Rabies druid, BvC, Bonemancer.
What if instead of constantly advocating this one class as so superior, we just treat them like any other class?
So you're saying that in guides people should say "If you're equal with the other player in skill and gear, it will be a tie no matter what. However if you suck, you lose. If you are godly, you win"? That would make no sense. If a class has clear advantages (WWsin vs. Novamancer or Fohadin vs. Windy), there's no need to even talk about the lesser skill people, as the outcome will mostly not change.
And no, I do not say that BvCs beat everything. It's clear that they are equal with the best hammerdins and the best boners and they lose to the best BvBs. With the rest, it's debatable.
Arbedark
04-09-2006, 18:52
That's because BvCs are one of the classes which have only a bunch of good duelers whereas rest sucks. With smiters, for example, there are godly people, good people, crappy people, decent people, etc. This does not exist for BvCs.
This is utter bull.
I've met BvCs who vary in skill from crap to mediocre to good and beyond...Don't make out like either you are a complete retard with a BvC or you are a God...Since it's just not true.
This is utter bull.
I've met BvCs who vary in skill from crap to mediocre to good and beyond...Don't make out like either you are a complete retard with a BvC or you are a God...Since it's just not true.
Well, I've only seen bad ones, good ones and godly ones. Bad ones has the crappy ones, the extra bad ones, everything that's below good. Good is people who have the talent and patience to end up being good, such as some people do. These people just lack the gear and some skill to be godly. The godly ones are such as mcm, blobs, luis, morotsjos, aka the widely-known names and people who have extremely good skill, knowledge and gear.
Arbedark
04-09-2006, 19:32
You said a bunch good, the rest suck. This implys that there are 2 camps.
Nothing which is based upon the skill of 2 opponents is ever black and white. Of course there are varying skill levels, just like in other classes. Just because you decide to play a BvC and you stick with it and you get good doesnt mean you are a god. And just because you play with a BvC for a short while and are ok doesnt mean you suck, its all shades of grey.
As is evidenced by this thread, just about everyone is sick of the "BvC this, BvC that" that is going on around here.
Everyone talks about how godly the top BvC players are, yet is it not true that they go "50/50" with the top Bone Necro's, Hammerdins etc?
Lets start pimping these as the best builds, since the Top Necro's etc can easily wipe the floor with any mediocre and pull the sort of win ratios that are pronounced, memorized and flaunted by BvC candidates as the BvC Bible...
Dennis_KoreanGuy
04-09-2006, 19:42
I do understand how people are tired of all the bvc talk, but I think its also healthy to have a forum so intently focused on a specific build that is popular as well as strong.
Ce Olba is a smart bvc player and have every right to share his knowledge on a build he is best or atleast good at. You want to get rid of all the bvc talk in forum? Then keep posting your thoughts and views on another build in threads. Just like what he does.
Arbedark
04-09-2006, 19:48
I do understand how people are tired of all the bvc talk, but I think its also healthy to have a forum so intently focused on a specific build that is popular as well as strong.
Ce Olba is a smart bvc player and have every right to share his knowledge on a build he is best or atleast good at. You want to get rid of all the bvc talk in forum? Then keep posting your thoughts and views on another build in threads. Just like what he does.
Ce Olba hasn't played his BvC for nearly 6 months according to certain sources...after 6 DAYS of not playing sins I can barely namelock properly for a good couple of hours...
Its not healthy to have an obsession with a single build for a whole forum. For the Barb Forum, sure. Follow the Druid Forum's recent obsession with Kiba or whatever.
This is meant to be a forum for DISCUSSION about the different builds. Not "wont work, BvC >>> that"
Ok then I'm gonna say that Hybrid Sins do everything a BvC can do, and do 80% of it better...got a caster that needs killing? Hybrid sin will do it easier. Got a BvB which needs killing? Hybrid sin should be able to do that easy, ZOMG NO! The fabled BvB, the "only" build that has even a remote chance to win vs a BvC, PWNT! by a simple Hybrid sin...
Ergo, Hybrid sins pwn...
You said a bunch good, the rest suck. This implys that there are 2 camps.
Correct. This is how it mostly is.
Nothing which is based upon the skill of 2 opponents is ever black and white. Of course there are varying skill levels, just like in other classes. Just because you decide to play a BvC and you stick with it and you get good doesnt mean you are a god. And just because you play with a BvC for a short while and are ok doesnt mean you suck, its all shades of grey.
I know this. It's just that the more you play, the better you get. Most people do not bother to play a single character for multiple years to get extremely good with it, thus they suck on their BvCs and say BvCs suck just because they get beaten by good ones and they got beaten on their BvC.
As is evidenced by this thread, just about everyone is sick of the "BvC this, BvC that" that is going on around here.
This might be so, but it's a fact that BvCs are a very threatening force in PvP, thus they should also get the attention they desire. After Blobs was banned, the BvC hype has gotten down a lot ( I do not go around saying I beat everyone 5-0).
Everyone talks about how godly the top BvC players are, yet is it not true that they go "50/50" with the top Bone Necro's, Hammerdins etc?
It is. Yet it's always like that. Even the godliest builds go 50/50 with some classes, it's inevitable unless there's a class that wins absolutely vs. everything, and then the PvP would be pointless as everyone could beat everyone and everyone would be using the same character.
Lets start pimping these as the best builds, since the Top Necro's etc can easily wipe the floor with any mediocre and pull the sort of win ratios that are pronounced, memorized and flaunted by BvC candidates as the BvC Bible...
Well, BvCs do not lose as absolutely as Bonemancers do. Bonemancers get trashed by godly hammerdins and ES sorcs.
I do understand how people are tired of all the bvc talk, but I think its also healthy to have a forum so intently focused on a specific build that is popular as well as strong.
Yes, you have a very good point. There are specific forums to discuss about individual classes, and that's where most of the BvC topics are in, the Barbarian area. But occasionally, a random people such as KaythonXE or chaozhc brings up that their character>bvc ez to the PvP forums and then a huge fight begins, where usually the BvCs are the winners.
Ce Olba is a smart bvc player and have every right to share his knowledge on a build he is best or atleast good at. You want to get rid of all the bvc talk in forum? Then keep posting your thoughts and views on another build in threads. Just like what he does.
Well, been playing a BvC ever since 1.11 (that's when I got my first BvC geared and going), but I've been researching them for quite some time before I made my first BvC. I've also done constant discussions with people like mcm, luis and morotsjos to get opinions and knowledge. I've also spent a good deal on reading how other builds are supposed to beat BvCs, which gives me a good idea of how they will duel.
Also, you shouldn't judge one by the time, but the knowledge acquired in that time. Which in my case is high.
I can clearly say that best I know about BvCs.
I really hate it when people start whining over BvC hyping, when it's clearly less than it was when Blobs wasn't banned. He was 100 times worse than mcm, morotsjos, me or luis. He was so cocky that it's almost funny.
Ce Olba hasn't played his BvC for nearly 6 months according to certain sources...after 6 DAYS of not playing sins I can barely namelock properly for a good couple of hours...
If you're looking at my thread history, yes back in December I was still asking questions. However, I made my first BvC the day after Ladder Season 2 ended. I've not gotten too much worse for not playing for several months.
Its not healthy to have an obsession with a single build for a whole forum. For the Barb Forum, sure. Follow the Druid Forum's recent obsession with Kiba or whatever.
Yet it's not good to have a forum that spreads incorrect information just because they do not want to pump up a build, now is it?
This is meant to be a forum for DISCUSSION about the different builds. Not "wont work, BvC >>> that"
Well, it's so simple. If someone says that they can beat BvCs with build X, I want to see definite proof, such as videos of mcm or morotsjos losing 5-0. And also mathematical proof.
Ok then I'm gonna say that Hybrid Sins do everything a BvC can do, and do 80% of it better...got a caster that needs killing? Hybrid sin will do it easier. Got a BvB which needs killing? Hybrid sin should be able to do that easy, ZOMG NO! The fabled BvB, the "only" build that has even a remote chance to win vs a BvC, PWNT! by a simple Hybrid sin...
Hybrid sins do better vs. some casters (sorcs, boners), but they cannot face smiters or other melee as well as BvCs can due to the fact that BvCs have more damage (that cannot even be reduced as much) and they have more life too. The BvB is the build that absolutely destroys BvCs. Bonemancers and Hammerdins are the builds that have chances to beat BvCs.
Ergo, Hybrid sins pwn...
Yet they lose to BvCs.
Arbedark
04-09-2006, 20:11
Correct. This is how it mostly is.
Hardly. There are many different skill levels of players, even BvC players...not just Godly and Crap...
I know this. It's just that the more you play, the better you get. Most people do not bother to play a single character for multiple years to get extremely good with it, thus they suck on their BvCs and say BvCs suck just because they get beaten by good ones and they got beaten on their BvC.
Neither do you...you havent played a BvC for 2 years, let alone several...And actually a fair number of people are devoted to a specific class they like extremely well. Happy, Speeder, Kiba, Stoute just to name a few...So another nice false argument you got going there.
This might be so, but it's a fact that BvCs are a very threatening force in PvP, thus they should also get the attention they desire. After Blobs was banned, the BvC hype has gotten down a lot ( I do not go around saying I beat everyone 5-0).
And so are Hybrid sins. But people don't go pimping this build as much, or Bone Necro's. Admitted, hammerdins get pimped almost as much as BvCs, but then I get the impression that the average BvC player has a littler more intelligence than the average Hammerdin player...
It is. Yet it's always like that. Even the godliest builds go 50/50 with some classes, it's inevitable unless there's a class that wins absolutely vs. everything, and then the PvP would be pointless as everyone could beat everyone and everyone would be using the same character.
Then why continue making out that the BvC is this ultimate class that you refer to? Yes yes, you "always" say that BvCs need to be godly and whatever...once again this is a nice false argument. If I could have the effort to look up your previous posts I could find many where you simply state that a BvC is better than X...
Well, BvCs do not lose as absolutely as Bonemancers do. Bonemancers get trashed by godly hammerdins and ES sorcs.
And BvCs get trashed by BvB's...so yes, they do lose as absolutely...
Well, been playing a BvC ever since 1.11 (that's when I got my first BvC geared and going), but I've been researching them for quite some time before I made my first BvC. I've also done constant discussions with people like mcm, luis and morotsjos to get opinions and knowledge. I've also spent a good deal on reading how other builds are supposed to beat BvCs, which gives me a good idea of how they will duel.
I can clearly say that best I know about BvCs.
I really hate it when people start whining over BvC hyping, when it's clearly less than it was when Blobs wasn't banned. He was 100 times worse than mcm, morotsjos, me or luis. He was so cocky that it's almost funny.
And I really hate it when people start saying "BvC >>> all"...AND? It's not going to stop now is it? :wink3:
Yet it's not good to have a forum that spreads incorrect information just because they do not want to pump up a build, now is it?
And how would it be spreading false information exactly? In fact if there was less BvC pimping it would be more accurate information...instead of such stupid tables as the BvC win % one..
Hybrid sins do better vs. some casters (sorcs, boners), but they cannot face smiters or other melee as well as BvCs can due to the fact that BvCs have more damage (that cannot even be reduced as much) and they have more life too. The BvB is the build that absolutely destroys BvCs. Bonemancers and Hammerdins are the builds that have chances to beat BvCs.
Played a Hybrid Sin? :rolleyes: Hybrid sins do better vs casters, BvCs do better vs melee...Now call me a weird, BUT i tend to see more casters in games...THUS Hybrid sins win here....
Yet they lose to BvCs.
Yet BvCs lose to BvBs...
Sounds like the whole Assassin caster killer vs Barb caster killer debate flared up in here, again..
I'm of the mind that while the mechanics for the WW barb are very simple [leap tele ww], the actual learning curve is a bit surprising - otherwise you would see a million WW barbs in every pub game destroying anything non-barb.
You have your Good players, your ok players, and your bad players. The barb population is outspoken here because 1) blobs and mcm [blobs quit iirc, and I haven't seen mike on for a while] would take on challenges about whether or not barb builds were overhyped, and take their opponents out 2) mcm has several videos of how barbs should be played, leading to fanboyism or misinformation about exactly how easy it is to win with a barb. It's pretty easy, but not that easy.
Why don't you just ignore the threads? Barb builds are one of the more common duelers you run into, and many of the threads are not 'Are they invincible?', but are 'I'm having trouble killing this barb, please help'. Every forum has their favored build, this one seems to be Barbs.
Arbedark
04-09-2006, 20:23
2) mcm has several videos of how barbs should be played, leading to fanboyism or misinformation about exactly how easy it is to win with a barb. It's pretty easy, but not that easy.
And Wizadept has videos of how easy it is to beat casters with his Kick / Bow sin...and also videos of how to perform specific moves...
Making vidoes doesnt show anything. I could make a Video of an unstatted sin "pwning"...
Also most threads are: ZOMG BVC SOUNDS GOSU! TELL ME EVERYTHING I NEED TO MAKE ONE!
The Hybrid sin vs BvC argument got brought Up because I was making a point that BvC's aren't the be all and end all of duelers...
And I also see less BvCs than most other classes in duel games..so they arent really one of the most popular builds, when compared with smiters, hammerdins, bone necro's etc...
BvCs should not be hyped up as much as they are.. In 1 v 1 duels, a hybrid sin will have a better winning % than a BvC against varios opponents.
Dennis_KoreanGuy
04-09-2006, 20:37
And Wizadept has videos of how easy it is to beat casters with his Kick / Bow sin...and also videos of how to perform specific moves...
Making vidoes doesnt show anything. I could make a Video of an unstatted sin "pwning"...
Also most threads are: ZOMG BVC SOUNDS GOSU! TELL ME EVERYTHING I NEED TO MAKE ONE!
The Hybrid sin vs BvC argument got brought Up because I was making a point that BvC's aren't the be all and end all of duelers...
And I also see less BvCs than most other classes in duel games..so they arent really one of the most popular builds, when compared with smiters, hammerdins, bone necro's etc...
BvC videos just happen to be more popular.
Doesn't show anything? I disagree. It is fun to watch, and can actually learn a thing or two from it. As you said earlier, Wizadept teaches how to perform specific moves, etc. etc. Contradicting yourself?
Most threads are not of such title. Usually you can find threads with BvC Help! or of such, but none of that tone. You are getting paranoid with the bvc hype and making it bigger than it seems. Even posting this will increase the hype and more people will become aware of it.
So would you rather there was a huge amount of talk just on hdin or bonenec instead of bvc then? What would that change?
And Wizadept has videos of how easy it is to beat casters with his Kick / Bow sin...and also videos of how to perform specific moves...
Making vidoes doesnt show anything. I could make a Video of an unstatted sin "pwning"...
Also most threads are: ZOMG BVC SOUNDS GOSU! TELL ME EVERYTHING I NEED TO MAKE ONE!
The Hybrid sin vs BvC argument got brought Up because I was making a point that BvC's aren't the be all and end all of duelers...
And I also see less BvCs than most other classes in duel games..so they arent really one of the most popular builds, when compared with smiters, hammerdins, bone necro's etc...
True, but how popular are those videos? You see random pubs all the time commenting on how you should play your barb 'like that guy in the video'. And like I said [and you somehow ignored], videos can spread fanboyism or misinformation. They give an idea on how the build can be played, not whether it's dominant or not.
And most threads are made by complete randoms that will never finish the build, never learn how to play it, and never actually be any good. So why do you care?
And the Sin vs Barb argument comes up every damn time some kind of thread concerning a barbs effectiveness is created.
And I see barbs everywhere.
I do understand how people are tired of all the bvc talk, but I think its also healthy to have a forum so intently focused on a specific build that is popular as well as strong.
Ce Olba is a smart bvc player and have every right to share his knowledge on a build he is best or atleast good at. You want to get rid of all the bvc talk in forum? Then keep posting your thoughts and views on another build in threads. Just like what he does.
i agree with what your saying Dennis but there is a tendancy for threads to become dominated by bvc talk, for example a thread started this evening asking for a es orb guide has become a discussion on what classes a bvc can and cannot pawn. how does that help the thread starter? ce olba has good knowledge on a build he enjoys playing and this knowledge is useful to the rest of us but i think its not healthy for the forum if bvc dominates so may threads.
Bah too much moaning,
Most points brought up are correct majority of BvCs suck but this is due to the fact ppl don't take time to learn the char proeprly and it has a higher learning curve than most builds.
I also like my other build like my mage ww/trapper as again this build can deal with most situations, but in all honnesty in most situatations for me my Barb will always be first pick.
Im not quite sure on the assa vs caster and barb vs caster. Some areas i find barb stronger due to better tanking etc however the uses of mb and trap on my assa does help a hell of alot vs casters.
Thoridian
04-09-2006, 22:32
So, I'm looking for some answers. In my experience, the best players are very good at their chosen build, and it is more their skill and less their build that lets them win. Why are BvCs portrayed as so godly? Even their proponents admit that they require great ability to be good. I'll take it a step further. Most BvCs are terrible. I can only assume that a portion of these are people who have searched the web for a good pvp guide and come across things like that horrendously inflated win % table for BvCs. Whenever this is mentioned, the response is "Well, those aren't REAL BvCs," but apparently there are only around 5 so called "real" BvCs per realm. How elite do you have to make the players before a class becomes good? How absurb would it be if we compared all classes on the basis of only the very best players? It has no relevence to any average gamer who comes here looking for information. I've seen build ideas shot down on this forum because it was said that a BvC would beat it, and a BvC has to be part of any imaginary pub. What are the odds that McM is going to be in any given pub? Why should ANYONE plan their character on the basis of that? Furthermore, since in the context of planning for Pubs the average BvC is a weak opponent, why do we consider only the godly BvCs "real?"
Thing is my dear, that even crap hammerdins can kill someone, even crap fire/blizz/light sorcs can kill someone, even crap trapsins and lots of other builds can kill someone. Why? Because theyre REALLY easy to play and even with crap stuff they do good. While a BvC (or a WWsin) needs alot of skill and the best gear. I think that youll agree with me on the fact that someone whos got his BvC for lets say a week wont kill as much people as he would do if he'd play a hammerdin (for a week too). BvCs are hella` hard characters to play and to master, while for example all u need to do on hammerdin is:
charge -> spam hammers -> repeat
on firesorc:
spray-and-pray
blizzsorc:
cast a blizz and teleport around, hope that ur opponent will run into it
etc...
How i do hate these quote-battles... Really, you know that feeling like "D'oh!! I am NOT reading through that!"?
Instead of arguing here, the bvc guys should now take a lesson and maybe not pimp their build that much in the future.
This all arguing really doesnt help much...
that a good point made the fact that obth of these build have a steap learning curve and are hard to pick up and master in a short time, makes them such good chars, cuz when u do get the hang of these chars and master to a certain extent, u will be destroying pubs.
Even mages i would toss into the mix as if u can use this efficently u can beat alot of pubs down, although the hammer part is pretty basic however string the foh, + delayed name lock teles or the foh hit-and tele on top tactics etc take the killing efficency of this build to the next lvl.
Uchiha Sasuke
04-09-2006, 22:57
Even mcm's video... I saw him slightly struggling with a bowzon. That zon took him down to 1/4 health....
The sun was probably in his eyes...
No, seriously. I think it was the top bowa or something.
Uchiha Sasuke
04-09-2006, 23:07
The sun was probably in his eyes...
No, seriously. I think it was the top bowa or something.
But still... -1 pt for bvc....
I think a point people have forgotten is, if you're a serious dueler, you should prepare for the next to last worst matchup, when dueling in pubs (the worst being unbeatable factors such as overabsorb, superdefensiveness, hax). This way, in the event that you do ever get such a matchup, you will at least have a fighting chance. Testing out builds via theory and debate is one way to discover a build's weakpoint and allow a player to prepare for it.
For now, the test seems to center around the bvc build. This is a good starting point as there are numerous bvcs on bnet pubs and the effectiveness and use of teleport+ww is high and very simple to execute, even without leap. Naturally, other builds should also be discussed as they too have their own difficulties, but for that, we'll need more knowledgeable people who know those builds to speak up.
I'd like to see videos of mcm duelling a GOOD wind druid, not one who just stands there tanking tri-whirls and having no block.
So would I, so if you do have a good wind druid and are competent with it, why not ask for a duel, anyone?
aznbboi16
05-09-2006, 01:27
Even mcm's video... I saw him slightly struggling with a bowzon. That zon took him down to 1/4 health....
How about a link to that video, as I haven't seen a single video of mcm dueling a bowzon.
However, I did see some other video on google featuring another bvc killing a necro, then getting jumped by a bowzon and being taken down to 1/4 before killing her. He was not wearing a CoA either. He didn't play as cleanly as mcm either.
There is a huge bvc hype, but you can't deny that they are a great class in the right hands.
Arbedark
05-09-2006, 09:53
How about a link to that video, as I haven't seen a single video of mcm dueling a bowzon.
However, I did see some other video on google featuring another bvc killing a necro, then getting jumped by a bowzon and being taken down to 1/4 before killing her. He was not wearing a CoA either. He didn't play as cleanly as mcm either.
There is a huge bvc hype, but you can't deny that they are a great class in the right hands.
I have seen the said video too. If I am not mistaken there is a Video of MCM dueling said Bowa where he forgot to edit out one of the losses he suffered...Its searchable using Smash as are most of MCM's videos.
NO ONE here is saying that a BvC isn't a great class in the right hands. I am first to admit that if you could only have 1 character for PvP, the BvC would be the best choice for many people. Simply because it is an extremely good build, and superior to many other choices. HOWEVER I think the point here is nothing to do with all the BvC help threads, it is more to do with when someone wants to make another class and people (no names, since this does come from a wide variety of people) jump in and say its going to be crap since a BvC will beat it. The thread starter is then usually all like "wow, this BvC sounds so gosu and easy to use. I'll make one!".
Regarding videos. I think you mis-understood my point. What I was trying to say is that Videos can be cut to make any look godly in the right hands.
I have seen the said video too. If I am not mistaken there is a Video of MCM dueling said Bowa where he forgot to edit out one of the losses he suffered...Its searchable using Smash as are most of MCM's videos.
This i dissagree with totally, in most of the vids he posts he leave his record of wins, loses etc to show, this is entirely usefull that he shows the loses as it reflect reality of how some duels can turn out, i.e ur facing builds top of their game, to simple errors and miscaculations resulting in losing.
The Vids are not there to show off BvC strength, rather to be used as a guide and something to learn from, i.e if u find urself struggling with a certain class and need a general tactics or how to do what, we refer back to the vid, however if ppl want to use it for brag rights thats upto them.
What makes me laugh about the thread though is one person makes a point, Oringinal poster and now u get all these ppl coming out of no where complaining, lol if u had probs before why did u w8 till now?
Arbedark
05-09-2006, 10:23
This i dissagree with totally, in most of the vids he posts he leave his record of wins, loses etc to show, this is entirely usefull that he shows the loses as it reflect reality of how some duels can turn out, i.e ur facing builds top of their game, to simple errors and miscaculations resulting in losing.
The Vids are not there to show off BvC strength, rather to be used as a guide and something to learn from, i.e if u find urself struggling with a certain class and need a general tactics or how to do what, we refer back to the vid, however if ppl want to use it for brag rights thats upto them.
What makes me laugh about the thread though is one person makes a point, Oringinal poster and now u get all these ppl coming out of no where complaining, lol if u had probs before why did u w8 till now?
Because we didnt?
I've complained about BvC over-hyping many times...and the opening lines of this thread state that:
Okay. This needs to be brought up, and it needs its own thread, because it keeps coming up in other threads
I have never seen a vid of MCM where he HAS posted his win / loss against that particular person.
All the vids are are cut to show how great a BvC is...
I guess u never saw the nec Vid in that Vid he clearly shows he loses, so much u see the "You are Dead" sign. And yes the vid more reflect his general win/lose record or ratio.
Thoridian
05-09-2006, 12:11
But still... -1 pt for bvc....
Why? He 5-0d or so that zon anyway so? lol
I guess u never saw the nec Vid in that Vid he clearly shows he loses, so much u see the "You are Dead" sign. And yes the vid more reflect his general win/lose record or ratio.
IIRC it was Gargoyle when he was still #1 nec or so
It's simple, someone go throw an open challenge to all BvCs and frap the duels.
It's simple, someone go throw an open challenge to all BvCs and frap the duels.
Won't work.
Fraps lags the PCs.
Connections are always issues in Open.
And who the heck decides that who will the BvCs duel?
Also, the total thing will take days, weeks, maybe months to complete (as you can have at most 8 player per game, with about 2000 players thats 250 games. Also the duels can last anything from 15 seconds to 30 minutes).
Thing is my dear, that even crap hammerdins can kill someone, even crap fire/blizz/light sorcs can kill someone, even crap trapsins and lots of other builds can kill someone. Why? Because theyre REALLY easy to play and even with crap stuff they do good. While a BvC (or a WWsin) needs alot of skill and the best gear. I think that youll agree with me on the fact that someone whos got his BvC for lets say a week wont kill as much people as he would do if he'd play a hammerdin (for a week too). BvCs are hella` hard characters to play and to master, while for example all u need to do on hammerdin is:
charge -> spam hammers -> repeat
on firesorc:
spray-and-pray
blizzsorc:
cast a blizz and teleport around, hope that ur opponent will run into it
etc...
amen to that
IIRC it was Gargoyle when he was still #1 nec or so
I believe he meant iN-CroW
diablotradez
05-09-2006, 19:03
bvcs are not as good vs top players mainly bone necros hdins wind druids lt smiters anyone got good a bvc on ladder? my friend got a nec that can give you trouble if your think you got good bvc or wait till ladder resets if no good bvc are on ladder
oh this is west ladder
I believe he meant iN-CroW
Might be, however MCM posted a video he titled "how not to duel a bonemancer", showing him die due to several mistakes.
And for all the people who say mcm edits the losses out to make the BvCs look better, you got any proof behind of this except your own disbelief and hatred towards BvCs? Mcm himself said those videos are to show HOW to use a BvC, so why would be show HOW TO LOSE with a BvC? That makes about zero sense.
bvcs are not as good vs top players mainly bone necros hdins wind druids lt smiters anyone got good a bvc on ladder? my friend got a nec that can give you trouble if your think you got good bvc or wait till ladder resets if no good bvc are on ladder
oh this is west ladder
It's a fact, most duelers on Ladder are ****ty, specially BvCs due to lacking the best gear (CoA being super-expensive, lack of max/ar/life scs, etc.).
If you want to find a good BvC, try Smash on West NL, he is one of the best BvCs.
And it's always so that the duelers on Ladder think they're good, but then when they face off with their non-ladder counterparts, they get beaten down to ground.
And no, lifetap smiters are NOT > BvC. For several reasons.
And BvC > Windy, always. If windy wins, the BvC either sucks, made a mistake, or the windy was lucky (lag, plain luck, misjudgement on the BvC's side).
And no, it's not a valid argument to compare a ****ty BvC with a decent/good/godly Windy.
And just to make it clear: The Best BvCs are about equal with the best hammerdins and the best necromancers. The Best BvCs lose to the Best BvBs in WW vs. WW, but if the BvC takes out Widowmaker, he can beat that too. Versus anything else, BvC has a very great chance of winning.
diablotradez
05-09-2006, 19:31
Might be, however MCM posted a video he titled "how not to duel a bonemancer", showing him die due to several mistakes.
And for all the people who say mcm edits the losses out to make the BvCs look better, you got any proof behind of this except your own disbelief and hatred towards BvCs? Mcm himself said those videos are to show HOW to use a BvC, so why would be show HOW TO LOSE with a BvC? That makes about zero sense.
It's a fact, most duelers on Ladder are ****ty, specially BvCs due to lacking the best gear (CoA being super-expensive, lack of max/ar/life scs, etc.).
If you want to find a good BvC, try Smash on West NL, he is one of the best BvCs.
And it's always so that the duelers on Ladder think they're good, but then when they face off with their non-ladder counterparts, they get beaten down to ground.
And no, lifetap smiters are NOT > BvC. For several reasons.
And BvC > Windy, always. If windy wins, the BvC either sucks, made a mistake, or the windy was lucky (lag, plain luck, misjudgement on the BvC's side).
And no, it's not a valid argument to compare a ****ty BvC with a decent/good/godly Windy.
And just to make it clear: The Best BvCs are about equal with the best hammerdins and the best necromancers. The Best BvCs lose to the Best BvBs in WW vs. WW, but if the BvC takes out Widowmaker, he can beat that too. Versus anything else, BvC has a very great chance of winning.
i just ask for good bvc on ladder to duel my friend's nec if there are none then wait till ladder resets. i didn't ask for a moaning of bvc facts... its like if a good bvc loses then you resort to lag/luck misjudgement pfft you can say all those to either side
i just ask for good bvc on ladder to duel my friend's nec if there are none then wait till ladder resets. i didn't ask for a moaning of bvc facts... its like if a good bvc loses then you resort to lag/luck misjudgement pfft you can say all those to either side
That attitude is not the one you use when you discuss things. That's the attitude you use when you beg to be banned, I thinks.
I know my stuff about BvCs, and I know that if a BvC loses to an equally skilled and geared windy, there's an outside factor (as when the skill and gear and disadvantages of each build are balanced, the result should be a draw, so there's always a mystery factor).
It's like saying that if you say that X+1 is not 1+X, something is wrong.
diablotradez
05-09-2006, 19:55
That attitude is not the one you use when you discuss things. That's the attitude you use when you beg to be banned, I thinks.
I know my stuff about BvCs, and I know that if a BvC loses to an equally skilled and geared windy, there's an outside factor (as when the skill and gear and disadvantages of each build are balanced, the result should be a draw, so there's always a mystery factor).
It's like saying that if you say that X+1 is not 1+X, something is wrong.
i ask for good bvc to duel someone that attitude is wrong? yours is right? unless every single player duels on the same realm you will see alot more people can fare against top bvcs
are you like the bvc defender? i dont see anyone bashing bvcs here i will say i am not if you think i am. i just want to see good bvc vs my friend's nec
i ask for good bvc to duel someone that attitude is wrong? yours is right? unless every single player duels on the same realm you will see alot more people can fare against top bvcs
are you like the bvc defender? i dont see anyone bashing bvcs here i will say i am not if you think i am. i just want to see good bvc vs my friend's nec
I find the "moaning" comment rather disturbing and heat-seeking.
As for my attitude, it's at least according to the common debate rules.
You show me a windy that beats mcm, blobs, Luis or Morotsjos and you're good.
The best smiter on Europe is equal with the best BvC on Europe as long as the BvC does not use Dooms or cleglaws.
What does my position matter? I'm just a player of a BvC and I know the facts and I've dueled just about every possible class with my BvC. And if your friend wants to duel BvCs, he should come here and make a topic, not you.
I find the "moaning" comment rather disturbing and heat-seeking.
As for my attitude, it's at least according to the common debate rules.
You show me a windy that beats mcm, blobs, Luis or Morotsjos and you're good.
The best smiter on Europe is equal with the best BvC on Europe as long as the BvC does not use Dooms or cleglaws.
What does my position matter? I'm just a player of a BvC and I know the facts and I've dueled just about every possible class with my BvC. And if your friend wants to duel BvCs, he should come here and make a topic, not you.
his "moaning" comment is no more abrasive than anyone elses ive read, the old im gonna get you banned speach is a little over the top?
And BvC > Windy, always. If windy wins, the BvC either sucks, made a mistake, or the windy was lucky (lag, plain luck, misjudgement on the BvC's side).
Completely ignorant. So when a windy loses, he can't get unlucky with lag, misjudgement etc?
I know for a fact that whenever my hammerdin loses to a bvc, it's always due to misjudgement whilst charging but does that mean if I had a bit of luck I'll easily dominate a barb?
his "moaning" comment is no more abrasive than anyone elses ive read, the old im gonna get you banned speach is a little over the top?
I was just expressing that if he continues talking like that (in an offensive manner) I would need to report him.
As for the moaning comment, I do find "moan" an offensive verb when talking about "writing" or "talking". Moaning can be translated to "whine", which again, is offensive when used in the right place.
And BvC > Windy, always. If windy wins, the BvC either sucks, made a mistake, or the windy was lucky (lag, plain luck, misjudgement on the BvC's side).
And no, it's not a valid argument to compare a ****ty BvC with a decent/good/godly Windy.
I wonder why my impression is just about the opposite.
Ladder 'duelers' generally have a skewed view on how matchups go. Thus I will never, ever, take them too seriously.
This topic was not to be 'barbs suck, why does everyone make them', instead it was 'Stop overhyping barbs and spouting random things about them in other threads'. So everyone should just stop with the build vs build BS.
Okay. This needs to be brought up, and it needs its own thread, because it keeps coming up in other threads, and I wouldn't mind a resolution to it. I've noticed a lot of things on this forum since I've been here, and one of them is that it has a serious chubb for the BvC class. I have trouble finding a thread w/o a reference to their superiority, godliness, etc. Now, there are good BvCs. There are BvCs who beat just about everyone they face. But, I'm really, really tired of hearing how great the class is. The fact is, there are players of other classes who beat everyone they face. When people discuss the power or lack thereof of classes (and subclasses) on this forum, they tend to discuss them in terms of having decent gear, and decent players. For some reason, in the case of the BvCs, the player is assumed to be godly. I'm not sure why this is, but the emergence of threads like :" do you ww barbs ever got beaten," clearly shows that it is having an impact on the people who come here for advice.
And BvC > Windy, always. If windy wins, the BvC either sucks, made a mistake, or the windy was lucky (lag, plain luck, misjudgement on the BvC's side).
do you ww barbs ever get beaten?
I wonder why my impression is just about the opposite.
Your impression of what?
Completely ignorant. So when a windy loses, he can't get unlucky with lag, misjudgement etc?
I did not say so. I clearly said when skill, knowledge and gear are equal, there are random factors that decide the outcome. However, most of the time, in Windy vs. BvC, that outcome is to the favour of the BvC, due to certain things.
I know for a fact that whenever my hammerdin loses to a bvc, it's always due to misjudgement whilst charging but does that mean if I had a bit of luck I would dominate a barb?
Not necessarily. However, when the common variables are all known/the same, the random factors are what remain. In maths for example, if you got X, Y, and Z, and you know that X = 2Z, Y=X+Z, you can make up a conclusion that Y - X = Z, thus X = 2(Y-Z), thus X = (X + Z - Z), so X = X+Z. This is un-solvable however without knowing the variables. This is just the same situation as if there was no lag, no misjudgements, no luck and the skill, knowledge and gear were al lthe same. The outcome cannot possibly be valid, due to all the variables being equal. Then comes in the class advantages, such as Windy vs. Fohadin or ES sorc vs. Bonemancer. It's not solvable at all. Thus you cannot give a definite answer to either what is X (except a random combination of Y, Z and X), nor can you say that build X is better than build Z but they both get beaten by build Y is there's no random variables.
So to make it simple: You cannot possibly say that one build is better than the other in any definite way. There are always variables or "unfair" advantages. It's all up to how the random variables go. For example, a second of lag can change the outcome of a duel.
diablotradez
05-09-2006, 20:44
I find the "moaning" comment rather disturbing and heat-seeking.
As for my attitude, it's at least according to the common debate rules.
You show me a windy that beats mcm, blobs, Luis or Morotsjos and you're good.
The best smiter on Europe is equal with the best BvC on Europe as long as the BvC does not use Dooms or cleglaws.
What does my position matter? I'm just a player of a BvC and I know the facts and I've dueled just about every possible class with my BvC. And if your friend wants to duel BvCs, he should come here and make a topic, not you.
he would of if he was a member of this forum. it doesn't matter if you duel everyone class ifthey're not good using them right? all i am saying is unless every player was on the same realm using their best class you will see alot more people can fight bvcs equally or better yet beat them more
and we cant prove this on open since open always lag
Uncle_Mike
05-09-2006, 21:01
It's a fact, most duelers on Ladder are ****ty, specially BvCs due to lacking the best gear (CoA being super-expensive, lack of max/ar/life scs, etc.).
Well,
1. IIRC some/most of your stuff was donated to you so please refrain from such comments... I am rather poor, I am ladder and AFAIK my coa>yours, my torch>yours and my anni is more or less the same or better.
We don't have those uber charms because they are dupes ok? None of them permed on ladder, plus some people stick to ladder for the sole reason that people do not rely on hacked, duped, bugged items there. And it seems to be a sound reason to me.
Also, how come you are familiar with ladder gear if you are non-ladder? You do realise that there are people with full inventories of 45 life skillers etc? At least a few barbs with close to perfect LEGIT scs etc?
How about you play the game instead of flaming everyone and being offensive? BvC > all? well, maybe the 5 you mention, you are right, most barbs suck, so? Maybe it's not the class but ultra skilled people behind them?
Even if ladder duellers are worse, which they might be, what does that prove? That they, after reset, were owned by those 5guys you keep mentioning? To me it just proves that you are talking about the best players on realm and nothing else. In addition - how about you try to stack vs foher without duped rings etc, how about you get max res without duped boots? the list goes on...
Anyway, you are not the best BVC advocate, and I suspect you are one of the main reasons this thread even exists.
Mike
Your impression of what?
My opposite impression of text quoted ofc.
X = 2Z, Y=X+Z, you can make up a conclusion that Y - X = Z, thus X = 2(Y-Z), thus X = (X + Z - Z), so X = X+Z
if X = 2Z
and Y - X = Z
=> X=2(Y-X) => X=2Y-2X => 3X=2Y => ...
What does it prove? that y=y?
And it's solvable.
ToThePoint
05-09-2006, 22:26
In maths for example, if you got X, Y, and Z, and you know that X = 2Z, Y=X+Z, you can make up a conclusion that Y - X = Z, thus X = 2(Y-Z), thus X = (X + Z - Z), so X = X+Z. This is un-solvable however without knowing the variables.
worst bit of 'maths' ever :)
a solution is obviously x=y=z=zero=point of the 'maths' ( or a 1/2/3 ratio of others)
bvcs are constantly hyped end of story.
Well,
1. IIRC some/most of your stuff was donated to you so please refrain from such comments... I am rather poor, I am ladder and AFAIK my coa>yours, my torch>yours and my anni is more or less the same or better.
We don't have those uber charms because they are dupes ok? None of them permed on ladder, plus some people stick to ladder for the sole reason that people do not rely on hacked, duped, bugged items there. And it seems to be a sound reason to me.
Also, how come you are familiar with ladder gear if you are non-ladder? You do realise that there are people with full inventories of 45 life skillers etc? At least a few barbs with close to perfect LEGIT scs etc?
How about you play the game instead of flaming everyone and being offensive? BvC > all? well, maybe the 5 you mention, you are right, most barbs suck, so? Maybe it's not the class but ultra skilled people behind them?
Even if ladder duellers are worse, which they might be, what does that prove? That they, after reset, were owned by those 5guys you keep mentioning? To me it just proves that you are talking about the best players on realm and nothing else. In addition - how about you try to stack vs foher without duped rings etc, how about you get max res without duped boots? the list goes on...
Anyway, you are not the best BVC advocate, and I suspect you are one of the main reasons this thread even exists.
Mike
i agree 100%. BvCs need to use the duped items to be succesful
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhf88o3YEdQ&mode=related&search=
Link to smash vs the necro, im pretty sure the necro is all vit and no block.
You cannot possibly say that one build is better than the other in any definite way
And yet you keeping saying that bvc who loses to windies are trash. You THINK bvcs are better than windies and THEREFORE you have contradicted yourself. Well done.
its my turn for some input.
i play west nl. there are plenty of mid range dueling barbs contradicting what Ce Olba says.... most having the high DR coa, grief, beast, acceptable fcr bps, max ar life gcs/lcs/scs, ect and a decent amount of skill (leap, tele, ww, gear switches, (widow sometimes))
i just find it curious why he makes references to only the 5 godliest bvcs on each realm when really we should really be making references to one's status by what the mid line builds are achieving when they duel, but looking towards the godliest duelers for information, techniques, and advice. this would be true for any class.
if i spent 1000+ sojs on building a character like MCM, Blobs, SMASH, ect.... with all perfect gear and stats i would be destroying pubs too......with any character.....
unfortunately i do that already with my 100 soj ww/ trap hybrid.
bvcs are a challenge, but they are not an unbeatable class.
also i find hammerdins on west nl are much more of a threatening class to pubs than even the godliest bvcs.
stoutewolf
05-09-2006, 23:57
a proper windy(max block, max dr) should beat a barb most of the time, but will depend on the luck with deadlystrike/OW a lot of times imo. its a matchup 60/40 in favor of dru
ce olba, PM me your ladder acc/charname please ;)
60/40 no that is wrong imo vs a Windy i have seen and come across well built ones, sure a BvC can lose but majority of the time the Windy vs BvC is tilted towards BvC.
And yeah no offense, i agree with Deadeye's point on Ladder duelers, talking from a person that uses both realms there is definetly a skill and competitive difference between ladder and NL dueling, on average u will find much better duelers on NL than ladder also stronger equivalent builds, this could be abother of factors liek the hacked items, or old school items + dupes etc but that fact is none the less true.
blobswannabe
06-09-2006, 01:00
if i spent 1000+ sojs on building a character like MCM, Blobs, SMASH, ect.... with all perfect gear and stats i would be destroying pubs too......with any character.....
No you wouldn't be. You have to know what you are doing have a decent computer and ping to do that. And i'm not so sure if bvcs can "destroy" pubs anymore depending on your definition of destroy. every pub now has 3 barbs 2 smiters and 3 hammerdins. Not a whole lot of casters to kill. If you play west nl u should know what i mean.
No you wouldn't be. You have to know what you are doing have a decent computer and ping to do that. And i'm not so sure if bvcs can "destroy" pubs anymore depending on your definition of destroy. every pub now has 3 barbs 2 smiters and 3 hammerdins. Not a whole lot of casters to kill. If you play west nl u should know what i mean.
Yeah that's pretty true. Most pubs I run into have a several smiters/hdins that require you to whittle them down, and most of the time they run to akara before it's over, while the 2nd smiter comes in to take their place. 'Destroying' is more like 'Slowly making everyone run away to heal' with all the pallys around now.
HappyAssassin
06-09-2006, 02:54
As far as the Ladder vs. NL thing, IMO the dupes make dueling require more skill, because the builds are just better. A ladder dueler from a newly dropped ladder usually has a hard time till they acquire their own set of dupes/bug'd items and remake their char. NL dueling people are also just more experienced.
Romper Stomper
06-09-2006, 03:46
All the vids are are cut to show how great a BvC is...
Hmm.. videos where I die at least once:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47Z1MCwAfT0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhf88o3YEdQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzoqapF7tlk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phlpYNWMdEM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWIV6kicu-8
Guess I just suck at editing since I "accidentally" left all those deaths in there.
One day.. I will master this VIRTUALDUB..
A man can dream..
Well,
1. IIRC some/most of your stuff was donated to you so please refrain from such comments... I am rather poor, I am ladder and AFAIK my coa>yours, my torch>yours and my anni is more or less the same or better.
Well, I did receive some of my items at a time. My CoA, my Grief, my Annihilus, my Dracul's, my Dooms. It does not matter if your CoA is superior to mine or if your Torch is superior to mine. I could get better ones if my drivers were up to date and I would play over a regular basis. Right now I barely ever play. I do not think that a rather poor person has >28/27 CoA ...
We don't have those uber charms because they are dupes ok? None of them permed on ladder, plus some people stick to ladder for the sole reason that people do not rely on hacked, duped, bugged items there. And it seems to be a sound reason to me.
Well, that might be the reason, but that's also the reason why non-ladder dueling is stronger.
Also, how come you are familiar with ladder gear if you are non-ladder? You do realise that there are people with full inventories of 45 life skillers etc? At least a few barbs with close to perfect LEGIT scs etc?
As Blobs said, yes you can get close to the legitimate equal. However, I doubt ANYONE having 33x 3/19/20s, legitimate and self-found of course. I'm familiar with Ladder gear because I played on PvPed on Ladder Season 2?
How about you play the game instead of flaming everyone and being offensive? BvC > all? well, maybe the 5 you mention, you are right, most barbs suck, so? Maybe it's not the class but ultra skilled people behind them?
Why the hell does every damn person have a thing with twisting my words? I've clearly said that BvCs do not own everyone. Romper says that. I do not. You just think I do.
Even if ladder duellers are worse, which they might be, what does that prove? That they, after reset, were owned by those 5guys you keep mentioning? To me it just proves that you are talking about the best players on realm and nothing else. In addition - how about you try to stack vs foher without duped rings etc, how about you get max res without duped boots? the list goes on...
If Ladder duelers are worse than Non-Ladder ones, it proves that the Ladder ones should be quiet about commenting a build that can barely shine on Ladder.
Anyway, you are not the best BVC advocate, and I suspect you are one of the main reasons this thread even exists.
Might be. And I've never said that I'm the best in X.
ce olba, PM me your ladder acc/charname please ;)
1. Do not play on Ladder.
2. Do not play regularly due to some drivers not being up to date which does not allow me to play.
Let me ask a question: If you have problems with BvCs, why are you bringing it up here? Why not just go make a godly BvB and beating all those BvCs to a pulp just for the hell of it?
worst bit of 'maths' ever :)
a solution is obviously x=y=z=zero=point of the 'maths'
That's what you get when you take three letters and give them random values of each other. Well, of course the answer cannot be other than zero, as zero is zero added to zero.
No you wouldn't be. You have to know what you are doing have a decent computer and ping to do that. And i'm not so sure if bvcs can "destroy" pubs anymore depending on your definition of destroy. every pub now has 3 barbs 2 smiters and 3 hammerdins. Not a whole lot of casters to kill. If you play west nl u should know what i mean.
every pub game 75% are pallys either exile smitidins or hammerdins, with bvc u cannot just tele around fireballing, nado, bone spirit, whirling every other player then type ez, hammerdins and smiters who are half skilled are annoying to beat with ar gear switch or in case or hammerdin having widow on switch
having 1012031203 sojs doenst ensure u dominate esp with bvc where it takes experience to learn good tele tri whirls, short whirls and desync whirl predictions
ToThePoint
06-09-2006, 10:11
That's what you get when you take three letters and give them random values of each other. Well, of course the answer cannot be other than zero, as zero is zero added to zero.
duh?
x=2z
y=x+z=3z
z=z
any value fits as all are just multiples of z in 1/2/3 ratio as stated.
duh?
x=2z
y=x+z=3z
z=z
any value fits as all are just multiples of z in 1/2/3 ratio as stated.
Now damn, I've always been sure that I suck in maths when it's in English.. Heck I do not even know all the simple abbreviations in English that I do in Finnish. And no, I wasn't reading with a thorough though nor did I bother to actually count it. But you again proved my point. Random values of Z, and anything fits. That's what I was in a way trying to say. And thanks for correcting the mistakes. I was using the letters X, Y and Z to demonstrate random factors of duels, such as luck, lag, midjudgment, wrong gear, wrong strategy, etc. and you helped me make it work.
every pub game 75% are pallys either exile smitidins or hammerdins, with bvc u cannot just tele around fireballing, nado, bone spirit, whirling every other player then type ez, hammerdins and smiters who are half skilled are annoying to beat with ar gear switch or in case or hammerdin having widow on switch
Most paladins are easily beatable with most characters, except of course the ones with higher skill and wealth levels. A smiter that's packed with 20/5s can easily take on any Foher or any Cold sorc with just plain old charge namelocking.
having 1012031203 sojs doenst ensure u dominate esp with bvc where it takes experience to learn good tele tri whirls, short whirls and desync whirl predictions
It takes experience to realize how the things work (triwhirling, etc), but it takes skill to maintain them and use them correctly.
You can have all the experience in the world but if you cannot figure out how something works, you cannot do it either. Once you realize how it works, you can practise it, and the experience you gain by practising what you realized to work makes you learn the actual thing and then you need skill to maintain it as it needs to be. Skill as in being able to use it in correct ways. If you use it in correct ways, you will always do it the same way, thus you will be "skilled" because you know how the thing works. So knowledge is followed with experiments which is followed up experience which is followed by skill.
ToThePoint
06-09-2006, 13:52
not really it was just pointless
mainaman
06-09-2006, 14:03
i agree 100%. BvCs need to use the duped items to be succesful
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhf88o3YEdQ&mode=related&search=
Link to smash vs the necro, im pretty sure the necro is all vit and no block.
total nonsence
i play ladder and i dont use duped items and im pretty succesful
pubs are no problem at all
privs i do 50/50 with some of the best necros and hammerdins thats about all
its another question how long it took me to learn
anyway the thread is not about fleming bvcs
but about how many ppl advocate them , well i think they are pretty viable chars and i also think ppl should play the char class they like best.
total nonsence
i play ladder and i dont use duped items and im pretty succesful
pubs are no problem at all
privs i do 50/50 with some of the best necros and hammerdins thats about all
its another question how long it took me to learn
anyway the thread is not about fleming bvcs
but about how many ppl advocate them , well i think they are pretty viable chars and i also think ppl should play the char class they like best.
I completedly agree.
I mean, the best legit boots are almost equal with the dupes:
30% FRW
40% CR
40% FR
40% LR
+9 Dexterity
+10% FHR
Those are the best possible imaginage and spawnable boots on 1.11b when comparing vs. dupes. The dupes only happen to have more dex/str, more fhr%, and a little bit more resistances.
My barbarian could do just as fine if not even better with these boots as he does with the duped ones (which are not even that good: 34 cold/fr, 49 lr, 30 frw, + 13 dex, +8 life).
As for charms, total nonsense. My BvC has no trouble beating people with 3* ar/life GCs, 4x fhr scs, a legit self-found 20/33, and res are 20 life scs with random mods (resistances, mana, etc).
If you start babbling about resistance rings, here's a legit example of such rings to you:
+11% All resistances
+30% LR
+90 mana
+10% FCR
+20 STR
+40 life
I think those are even better than some of the dupes, boasting all the needed stats except for AR and also decent LR.
As for charms, you CAN find 3/19/20s. You CAN find 3/20/20s.
If you talk about 1.08 dupes, someone have had to FIND them.
As for hacked items, such as Btals, Bbelt, Wizgloves, Occu Sojs, WoE boots, Steelclash gloves (Stoute has these IIRC), etc. BvCs do not need them.
mainaman
06-09-2006, 14:53
every pub game 75% are pallys either exile smitidins or hammerdins, with bvc u cannot just tele around fireballing, nado, bone spirit, whirling every other player then type ez, hammerdins and smiters who are half skilled are annoying to beat with ar gear switch or in case or hammerdin having widow on switch
having 1012031203 sojs doenst ensure u dominate esp with bvc where it takes experience to learn good tele tri whirls, short whirls and desync whirl predictions actually this is not true if in game there are hammerdins and smitrers a bvc need only one gear choice and can beat them all. not at once ofc because there is no way to not take hits , but one can do 2v1 match ups relatively ez
actually this is not true if in game there are hammerdins and smitrers a bvc need only one gear choice and can beat them all. not at once ofc because there is no way to not take hits , but one can do 2v1 match ups relatively ez
The Trang-Oul's setup is for games with ~50/50 hammerdins/smiters and some sorcs/necs. However, I'm trying to make a setup that will be in the favour of Trang-Oul's always. Yes, you lose the OW damage, but it's not much. With a few 20/17s or similar (20/15s, life/mana GCs) you can have ~650 mana, 40% FCR, ~34-39% DR, 9-10k AR with your pubsetup, which is of course a very fine setup.
mainaman
06-09-2006, 15:48
The Trang-Oul's setup is for games with ~50/50 hammerdins/smiters and some sorcs/necs. However, I'm trying to make a setup that will be in the favour of Trang-Oul's always. Yes, you lose the OW damage, but it's not much. With a few 20/17s or similar (20/15s, life/mana GCs) you can have ~650 mana, 40% FCR, ~34-39% DR, 9-10k AR with your pubsetup, which is of course a very fine setup. i believe his assumption was only smiters and hammerdins in the game , then one needs ravens+highlords+enchant, if one likes more dmg fortitude, dracks,ow belt and widow on switch (optional)
usually pubs are full with wana bes so its not gonna be hard at all. ofc there are good players from time to time.
i believe his assumption was only smiters and hammerdins in the game , then one needs ravens+highlords+enchant, if one likes more dmg fortitude, dracks,ow belt and widow on switch (optional)
usually pubs are full with wana bes so its not gonna be hard at all. ofc there are good players from time to time.
If there are only smiters/hammerdins, swap Arachnid's + Gores for Hsarus and Trangs for Draculs. And Enchant. GG@20k AR +~35% DS.
mainaman
06-09-2006, 19:39
If there are only smiters/hammerdins, swap Arachnid's + Gores for Hsarus and Trangs for Draculs. And Enchant. GG@20k AR +~35% DS.
actually this is my pub set up for quite some time now hehe
Dennis_KoreanGuy
07-09-2006, 00:26
Most BvC's usually have much easier time vs. regular 99fcr nonblock druids you see in pubs, but a good druid will of course have 75% ctb, Doom, max dr.
If we are talking about strong strong windies / bvcs you encounter in pub, they most likely will be wearing wizzies as it helps both builds immensely, and I doubt even a 163% Windy can tele away from 70% bvc. It will be a battle of tankage -.-
actually this is my pub set up for quite some time now hehe
my pub setup uses arach gore duel raven and trangs, i have hsarus setup in cube for switch
but thing im trying to say with owning pubs is u have to focus one at a time, i often get smited by another as i pull my widow to lure a hammer, like bvc cant just jump around tri whirling the whole pub with smiters and dins around
and most pub dins can afford exile now which requires duel angelic if u dont enchant and have killer charms
Most BvC's usually have much easier time vs. regular 99fcr nonblock druids you see in pubs, but a good druid will of course have 75% ctb, Doom, max dr.
This is correct, however the ones that use Doom are rare as hell, as most people do not have all the items to get to 99/99 with Doom without wizzies. Heck, I even gave my friend a Doom just so that he could use it in TvTs and vs. Barbarians, but he didn't ever use it. And his Windy is a 99/99 max block max DR ~6k life one. I find dueling him to be fun, as he knows how I duel, but the way I duel abuses his manapool a lot (howling the minions, he has a habit of teleporting off-map to resummon), which again turns the tables to my side (as he is the one coming at me, not me at him, except for a few times).
If we are talking about strong strong windies / bvcs you encounter in pub, they most likely will be wearing wizzies as it helps both builds immensely, and I doubt even a 163% Windy can tele away from 70% bvc. It will be a battle of tankage -.-
A BvC that has wizzies will have quite some stats vs. a Windy: max DR%, 70% FCR, (CBF) (Cold absorb), and of course whatever they got regularly, except for the OW from Dracul's.
but thing im trying to say with owning pubs is u have to focus one at a time, i often get smited by another as i pull my widow to lure a hammer, like bvc cant just jump around tri whirling the whole pub with smiters and dins around
Well, it's not like there's a unity of somekind of pubs, making them all a force together. Most pubs fight eachother, making them easy pray for either Doom (I've ruined several duels by either dooming both the participants (Smite v Smite or B v B) or then killing them with Dooms) or just your normal attacks.
Also, you do not necessarily NEED a Widowmaker to beat a hammerdin, it just makes it a ton easier. Myself in TvTs I usually leave the luring of the hammerdins to others. Not like they even COULD camp in TvTs.
and most pub dins can afford exile now which requires duel angelic if u dont enchant and have killer charms
If there's only 1-3 smiters, it's not a huge problem. However, if half of them are all smiters/hammerdins, USE THE DARN HSARUS'!!!!.
As far as the Ladder vs. NL thing, IMO the dupes make dueling require more skill, because the builds are just better. A ladder dueler from a newly dropped ladder usually has a hard time till they acquire their own set of dupes/bug'd items and remake their char. NL dueling people are also just more experienced.
Umm I dont know what your watching but dueling with bad items requires alot more skill. Try it.. you will see you lose more and to win you have to play at a higher level.
Therfore a BvC on ladder that wins a high percentage of the time > than MCM and other NL builds that cant handle dueling without dupes. There are plenty of good duelers on ladder and I dont want to start a NL vs. L argument but just because there are a number of NL players that could be homecomming queen dosent make it the best. Experience? there are plenty of people on Ladder who have played from the beginning.
Romper Stomper
21-09-2006, 02:57
Umm I dont know what your watching but dueling with bad items requires alot more skill. Try it.. you will see you lose more and to win you have to play at a higher level.
Therfore a BvC on ladder that wins a high percentage of the time > than MCM and other NL builds that cant handle dueling without dupes.
You might want to consider that the same applies for your opponents in Ladder...
Thoridian
21-09-2006, 13:47
This is correct, however the ones that use Doom are rare as hell, as most people do not have all the items to get to 99/99 with Doom without wizzies. Heck, I even gave my friend a Doom just so that he could use it in TvTs and vs. Barbarians, but he didn't ever use it. And his Windy is a 99/99 max block max DR ~6k life one. I find dueling him to be fun, as he knows how I duel, but the way I duel abuses his manapool a lot (howling the minions, he has a habit of teleporting off-map to resummon), which again turns the tables to my side (as he is the one coming at me, not me at him, except for a few times). Ur talking about Chris? I doubt u`d beat him now lol because:
1. he got better
2. u got worse (because u havent played since ~2 months or so. Btw whats the problem with downloading and installing graphic drivers? lol go do that now)
Ur talking about Chris? I doubt u`d beat him now lol because:
1. he got better
Dueled him a while ago, got him to ~1/4th life when I was at 1/2. He then admit that the way I duel is something he cannot counter (I abuse the howl tactic)
2. u got worse (because u havent played since ~2 months or so. Btw whats the problem with downloading and installing graphic drivers? lol go do that now)
Do not go say that I've gotten worse, since I haven't. Time is not a problem for me. And I've not played for 4 months. And the problem is that they were a) not graphic card drivers b) some drivers I had no idea of, and c) It didn't help for a bit.
Now, it might be in the cd-drive (as it's gotten quite dirty) or the cds (they're quite scratched).
You should already know that I'm not someone to drop off his skills. I still do play some games now and then. And I still HAVE the skill I've had. If I could arrange it, I would gladly duel Chris 1v1. Too bad that the errors prevent it pretty much (unless I tell chris to make a certain game before I even put on the program and such, but most likely I will still drop mid-duel).
I dueled Chris twice, once dying due to lag and a small mistake (I kept my unsummon namelock and waited for him to tele when he was behind of me). Even Chris admit that. The other time is as I described.
HappyAssassin
21-09-2006, 17:36
So you're basing your recent record against this guy on 2 duels, one of which you lost, and the other of which you won.
You write "once dying due to lag and a small mistake," well I'm here to tell you that the #1 excuse that is used in Bnet today is "lag." And, you write about your "mistake" like it doesn't count because you won in the other duel. The strange thing about this is that from what you wrote, you just got caught by a good teleport and died.
Maybe you should consider that making a "mistake" is part of your dueling skill, not a reason to not count a duel. I recently got killed by a crappy hammerdin because I stood stock still trapping and MBing while 3 VISIBLE hammers came around and hit me. That duel still counts, it was my FAULT that I screwed up, and it reflects on my ability.
Broken up into sections so you can easily quote it back at me. G'day.
So you're basing your recent record against this guy on 2 duels, one of which you lost, and the other of which you won.
And before that I beat him 7-2. And I'm the one who's mostly been there to duel with him. I have also suggested him different gear setups.
You write "once dying due to lag and a small mistake," well I'm here to tell you that the #1 excuse that is used in Bnet today is "lag." And, you write about your "mistake" like it doesn't count because you won in the other duel. The strange thing about this is that from what you wrote, you just got caught by a good teleport and died.
The first time I died I had 600 ping during the duel. That's about QUITE laggy compared to my usual 40-60. And I did not get caught my a good teleport, I was lagging. Or is it not lagging when it takes 5 seconds for your whirl to be on your screen from the moment you did it. Usually it's there instantly. And due to that, he was able to teleport around of me and place Nados. As for the other duel, I didn't have lag (which I think was caused by the fact that I had forgotten that BitLord was still there downloading), and I beat him. Just like I beat him 7-2 before. And both of those kills he got while I was using Fortitude (I suck with Forti anyways).
Maybe you should consider that making a "mistake" is part of your dueling skill, not a reason to not count a duel. I recently got killed by a crappy hammerdin because I stood stock still trapping and MBing while 3 VISIBLE hammers came around and hit me. That duel still counts, it was my FAULT that I screwed up, and it reflects on my ability.
Please stop saying twisting the reality when you were not there. Heck, even my friend admit that he saw that I was clearly lagging (usually I teleport a lot and use howl, then I was forced to do long whirls). And it does not reflect my ability at all. Normally, under no lag, I beat him easily. However yes, there are cases where you do not play attention and make a mistake (such as when I was holding unsummon namelock when he was behind of me, shooting nados. I ended up getting hit twice).
Of course you can always make an excuse that forgetting BitLord was my own fault (except that I was thinking that my PC was fixed so that I could play again so I was damn happy. Being happy cannot be my mistake).
I have yet to face Chris's windy ive only duelled the hammer of his.
But vs Windies im still undecided to which is the best setup, the forti or the enigma?
Sometimes when i use forti or a while back when i was using duress it works but some duels i completely flunked with the duress and did well switching back to standard enigma.
Hmm i need to try that howl technique although when i use enigma i don't really need it at all, i usally do fine.
EDIT
yeah a BvC is quite sensitive to lag, I find when i start lagging i can always tell cuz reaction time of tele falls and even when ur teleing at 40% fcr u can still see the delay and it is quite annoying.
I have yet to face Chris's windy ive only duelled the hammer of his.
It seems he got banned today. He was testing a bot for three runs and got his account closed and his cd-key banned. He said he quits D2 now. That he cannot be bothered to start all over.
But vs Windies im still undecided to which is the best setup, the forti or the enigma?
I find the Enigma setup better, as it allows more mobility (and I love mobility).
Hmm i need to try that howl technique although when i use enigma i don't really need it at all, i usally do fine.
It hasn't let me down even once.
yeah a BvC is quite sensitive to lag, I find when i start lagging i can always tell cuz reaction time of tele falls and even when ur teleing at 40% fcr u can still see the delay and it is quite annoying.
Yes. Specially when the ping gets to 600-1000 where your teleports take ~5 seconds and your WW stops and then moves again in a few seconds. That's what happend to me when dueling Chris last time.
The time before that, I beat him 7-2. Too bad I lost the screenshots.
omg why was he testing a bot...?
every kinda, unoffical program like script, bot, mh etc can result is a bad and key lost...
KaythonXE
21-09-2006, 23:13
I made a hammerdin on ladder to own you rand bvcs. :) 17-0 so far.
I made a hammerdin on ladder to own you rand bvcs. :) 17-0 so far.
Duel Alt (*zee.) or WsN-Crai (*Negativityx4)
KaythonXE
21-09-2006, 23:47
Tell them to whisper Gives(*Jared(sj)) for rapeage. :)
I'm pro hvh. I've been accused of fc hammers. lawl
omg why was he testing a bot...?
every kinda, unoffical program like script, bot, mh etc can result is a bad and key lost...
I do not know. Chris has always been a kind of a fool to do such things.
I am the only one out of our trio (Vadim, Chris and me) who hasn't used any programs on Closed Battle.Net since 1.11. Chris has been using a bot and mh. Some even suspect that he used fc script at a time. Vadim has been using mh in PvM for quite a while.
HappyAssassin
22-09-2006, 05:25
Please stop saying twisting the reality when you were not there. Heck, even my friend admit that he saw that I was clearly lagging (usually I teleport a lot and use howl, then I was forced to do long whirls). And it does not reflect my ability at all. Normally, under no lag, I beat him easily. However yes, there are cases where you do not play attention and make a mistake (such as when I was holding unsummon namelock when he was behind of me, shooting nados. I ended up getting hit twice).
It seems he got banned today. He was testing a bot for three runs and got his account closed and his cd-key banned. He said he quits D2 now. That he cannot be bothered to start all over.
The time before that, I beat him 7-2. Too bad I lost the screenshots.
Wow. Just, wow. ISO: Plausible deniability...
Thoridian
22-09-2006, 09:01
I do not know. Chris has always been a kind of a fool to do such things.
I am the only one out of our trio (Vadim, Chris and me) who hasn't used any programs on Closed Battle.Net since 1.11. Chris has been using a bot and mh. Some even suspect that he used fc script at a time. Vadim has been using mh in PvM for quite a while.
Correction: He was using fc scrpit :P
Correction: He was using fc scrpit :P
I personally doubt it, as he didn't fc me everytime nor from a close distance. However yes, he did get abnormally good with fc in a too short time (I remember him 1-hitting people in a pub and then I PKed him and he whined about it).
Wow. Just, wow. ISO: Plausible deniability...
Too lazy to get a dictionary and I'm not a natural Englishman, can you translate me what that literally means. Deniability comes from deny and ability, so I think it could mean the ability to deny. However on plausible, never seen such a word...
You might want to consider that the same applies for your opponents in Ladder...
This is true but lacking NL dupes affects different builds more or less drastically. No one seems to play an equal amount on both ladder and nl including myself. I simply watch the NL vids. Surely I could walk you MCM and then give you a cracked tomahawk and your superior NL skills would allow you to rule the ladder crowd in a matter of days :rolleyes:
This is true but lacking NL dupes affects different builds more or less drastically. No one seems to play an equal amount on both ladder and nl including myself. I simply watch the NL vids. Surely I could walk you MCM and then give you a cracked tomahawk and your superior NL skills would allow you to rule the ladder crowd in a matter of days :rolleyes:
Stop babbling.
A ladder BvC can use, for example, 3/18/20s and this kind of boots:
30% FRW
40% FR
40% LR
40% CR
+9 dex
Almost equal to some dupes. As I already said, you can use max/ar/life GCs or LCs or SCs that are similar to 32020s.
BvCs do NOT depend on dupes. It just powers them up.
Also, it's always a fact that the "godly" Ladder duelers get beaten up in Non-Ladder when the Ladder resets. I am happy I did not experience this, as I was still building my BvC the few first days after the Ladder reset.
The lack of competent PvPers on Ladder makes it so that the skill-scale of Ladder allows people with less skill to be "the best on Ladder", whereas you would need WAY more skill to be "the best on Non-Ladder".
mainaman
22-09-2006, 15:23
I personally doubt it, as he didn't fc me everytime nor from a close distance. However yes, he did get abnormally good with fc in a too short time (I remember him 1-hitting people in a pub and then I PKed him and he whined about it).
Too lazy to get a dictionary and I'm not a natural Englishman, can you translate me what that literally means. Deniability comes from deny and ability, so I think it could mean the ability to deny. However on plausible, never seen such a word...
he means believeble deniablity
or you deny something happened in a very believable way...
just translating here not gettin it the argument at all
he means believeble deniablity
or you deny something happened in a very believable way...
just translating here not gettin it the argument at all
Ok so to sum it up he is saying I'm lying, it seems.
How about go argue about mcm not showing his deaths in most of his videos?
The hell of it, I would copy-paste our chat here if it was saved.
Stop babbling.
A ladder BvC can use, for example, 3/18/20s and this kind of boots:
30% FRW
40% FR
40% LR
40% CR
+9 dex
Almost equal to some dupes. As I already said, you can use max/ar/life GCs or LCs or SCs that are similar to 32020s.
BvCs do NOT depend on dupes. It just powers them up.
Also, it's always a fact that the "godly" Ladder duelers get beaten up in Non-Ladder when the Ladder resets. I am happy I did not experience this, as I was still building my BvC the few first days after the Ladder reset.
The lack of competent PvPers on Ladder makes it so that the skill-scale of Ladder allows people with less skill to be "the best on Ladder", whereas you would need WAY more skill to be "the best on Non-Ladder".
Umm I dont think the babbling comment is neccesary. Your only proving something I agree with. However you forgot 10FHR on those boots. Unfourtunatly thats only "possible"(closer to impossible) to find and Using Imps is much easier.
I simply responded to:
As far as the Ladder vs. NL thing, IMO the dupes make dueling require more skill, because the builds are just better.
So basically your statment also proves this wrong...
As far as your comments about how 1337 NL is you may be right. I just want to see it. As far as I know dupes like occy rings and heavily bugged charms still exist in NL land thats why I dont play there much. Wouldent any of these gfg NL duelers come to ladder if they were to have assistance? Why not be the best on NL and L? It would be kinda like having the title in two weight classes and everyone knows how bad *** that is.
Umm I dont think the babbling comment is neccesary. Your only proving something I agree with. However you forgot 10FHR on those boots. Unfourtunatly thats only "possible"(closer to impossible) to find and Using Imps is much easier.
I didn't forget 10 fhr on the boots. FHR on boots is useless. It will never help you reach anything, except for the 48% bp with Kiras, and when you use Kiras, you do not need fhr.
As far as your comments about how 1337 NL is you may be right. I just want to see it. As far as I know dupes like occy rings and heavily bugged charms still exist in NL land thats why I dont play there much. Wouldent any of these gfg NL duelers come to ladder if they were to have assistance? Why not be the best on NL and L? It would be kinda like having the title in two weight classes and everyone knows how bad *** that is.
Go ask them. Most likely they cannot be bothered to waste a year to get all the almost perfect gear and then find out that Ladder resets tomorrow..
Hmm that could be the secret to Vads fast rushes :scratch:
But weither u like the fact or not NL dueler are usually better than Ladder, i don't know if it experience or dupes, well dupes makes builds stronger but also usually ppl have alot of skill.
I remember i started more as a ladder dueler, with a BvA i did ok but tbh i was beating ppl and i was rubbish. Then when i started some NL dueling, it took some time to get used to things cuz the average dueler at one stage was wiping the floor with my builds and i definetly was having a harder time than ladder.
From playing both realms i find that NL>L in terms of skill and competition i still duel a bit ladder but not much..
I didn't forget 10 fhr on the boots. FHR on boots is useless. It will never help you reach anything, except for the 48% bp with Kiras, and when you use Kiras, you do not need fhr.
Go ask them. Most likely they cannot be bothered to waste a year to get all the almost perfect gear and then find out that Ladder resets tomorrow..
I dont think its useless. You can replace 2X 5fhr charms with 3/20/20's that way if your opponet is not lit element. You dont have to have perfect gear to duel but I do see how some people would consider it a waste to play ladder since it all goes to NL anyways. I wish I could convince MCM or others to also play ladder but I am sure I would fail like you said. But until someone does I dont think its a Fact that NL > L . This was the discussion I was trying to avoid in my first post because I believe it just turns into an "I saw this or heard that" discussion. Such as general statments that when ladder ended all ladder duelers were pwnt in NL. Perhaps some of them accually just started on the new ladder and didnt proceed to play NL or possibly didnt aquire all the neccesary dupes to succed. Anyways enough speculation.
SicHalo: Yea I think on average your right. Ladder is the default setting for making a new char so I think more nubs end up there. Also since NL dosent reset you can maintain a GG char forever. Therfore you would expect alot more people there to be twinked with perfect gear.
yeah but this means everytime ur switching charms which is pointless as u are bound to forget to switch back as a result u miss the 48% fhr bp and lose to a spamming char due to crap fhr.
Sorry it a fact, i play both realms Europe realm btw and that is the facts for me.
mainaman
22-09-2006, 20:00
to the argument of how godly the nl players are compared to ladder players , i agreee there are ppl that are very skilled on nl , but then there are ppl that use mass buged items and that can win duels because of that. example
on ladder i dueled fb sorc 3k mana 95% es alot of bmanas, fletch, duped boots prolly,max block mas fhr
what happened was he would tele on my bvc and tank me like as if i dont hit him at all, max i was able to do was take him half life down. now the thing was he wouldnt let me try hit and waith for ow to take effect, just tele on top of me and spam and tank. well where is the skill here? if it wasnt fot the dupes he used he would never win more than several duels...
point is dupes can compensate somewhat for lack of skill in case of casters prolly not melee chars
HappyAssassin
22-09-2006, 20:11
Chek, when Ladder drops you're going to see the difference. Give yourself a little time to ajust your builds to the new items (you'll get stomped at first) and you'll notice that the quality of the average dueler is higher, the quality of the best duelers is higher, the only thing that's similar is the quality of the Good but not great duelers.
@ Ce Olba, while I'm not saying you're lying as such, lets look at the situation. You are using an example of a duel that you fought as proof that your build/class is superior to another, yet there is literally no evidence of this duel. I don't expect you to take SS's of all your fights (that would be absurd), but if you're going to use your duels as examples like this, there had better be some backup. Either SS's, or a message log, or something. However, you have "lost" the SS's, and "can't find" the message log. As you pointed out, I wasn't there, so I can't vouch for the outcome one way or another, or indeed say ANYTHING about the duel (according to you). However, the only other player you've mentioned who COULD vouch for the outcome has suddenly quit (interestingly, almost immediately after you mentioned him on the forums here), leaving me and the rest of the forum with no way (that you've provided) to verify what you've said.
I honestly don't care too much about the outcome of your duels, but if you are going to use them as proof of something, you should have proof of the duel. So yes, I'm not saying you're lying, I'm saying that you have created a situation in which I have no reason to believe what you say. Post up the account name of someone can reliable be proven to have been in the game or post an SS, otherwise don't post scores from your duels like they are proof of anything at all.
You are using an example of a duel that you fought as proof that your build/class is superior to another, yet there is literally no evidence of this duel.
Well.
I don't expect you to take SS's of all your fights (that would be absurd), but if you're going to use your duels as examples like this, there had better be some backup. Either SS's, or a message log, or something.
Working on it.
However, you have "lost" the SS's
You're saying you wouldn't lose the SS's after three re-formatting of your C-drive?
and "can't find" the message log.
Due to all the re-formatting, I have 3-4 messagelogs from this same person, some of which are quite long.
However, the only other player you've mentioned who COULD vouch for the outcome has suddenly quit (interestingly, almost immediately after you mentioned him on the forums here), leaving me and the rest of the forum with no way (that you've provided) to verify what you've said.
It's like this: I had just posted that post about Chris and 5 minutes after he told me he got banned and that he will quit. Wanna messagelog?
So yes, I'm not saying you're lying, I'm saying that you have created a situation in which I have no reason to believe what you say. Post up the account name of someone can reliable be proven to have been in the game or post an SS, otherwise don't post scores from your duels like they are proof of anything at all.
Let's see. Goldwrap and ben here in that game. However, neither of them saw the duel (and these guys are the smiter and the v/t I talk about a lot), so guess my only choice is to wait until Chris gets online and see what I can do. Or locate the messagelog.
KaythonXE
22-09-2006, 22:21
Bvcs are garbo trash that gets owned by 99% of the character classes including npc fallens.
moonlike
22-09-2006, 23:27
Bvcs are garbo trash that gets owned by 99% of the character classes including npc fallens.
CRY MORE NOOB
Bvcs are garbo trash that gets owned by 99% of the character classes including npc fallens.
hmmz do i sense spam?
I bet ur not even that good on hammer...
HappyAssassin
23-09-2006, 00:30
Let's see. Goldwrap and ben here in that game. However, neither of them saw the duel (and these guys are the smiter and the v/t I talk about a lot), so guess my only choice is to wait until Chris gets online and see what I can do. Or locate the messagelog.
All I was looking for.
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