LF Javazon vs. LS Trapper - untwinked

[d00m2k]

This is for the new hardcore ladder season, so each will have sub-par gear. I can't decide which one to make.

I tested both builds out in open, 8ppl, hell difficulty games, soloing. They both can do very well, killing at good speeds.

Here's what I found:
Javazon-
More mobs, faster they die.
Maxed Valk is an awesome tank. She did fine 8ppl hell difficulty.
20 LF, 20 Valk, rest of points can go anywhere.

(problems)
single/few mobs - she can't kill.
stats - if I get max block and enough str to use good javelins, LOW life. I.e. Titan's + max block on SS = around 100 vit. Even with max block, will this survive in HC?
Lightning immunes. Even with rediculous gear + full synergized plague jav + max valk, took forever. What do you do?
Mana!


Trapper-
Decent at both large groups and single mobs, but doesn't kill nearly as fast vs large groups as Javazon
No tank (explained later)
stats can be 79/79 then all vit = high life

(problems)
No tank. To kill, Trapper requires full LS synergies. Even with SM maxed, she didn't last 1/2 has long as Valk.
Lightning immunes. Fully synergized, no room for any other elements.
Mana!
Does magic find work with traps?
Requires about +20trap skills to kill fast enough, while LF only needs like +10 - 12. How rare are the +1 trap charms?

So what do you guys think is best? Javazons have VERY low life, but an extremely good tank that always regens very fast.

[STINGER]

Frankly I find your evaluation of the Trapper to be very poor!

I for one put (2) sins in the Top 10 in S1 and S2 and the S1 finished #8 but the other fell off as I quit playing.

the trapper can easily handle "everything" solo better than a Java.....meaning Light Immunes.

The Trapper also does not need fully Synergized. You can have a Shadow of which can be high enuff level to be very strong for you as well as your Merc.

My first S1 Trapper beat the game wiht the worst gear possible including still only wearing a Breast Plate and using a 3 socket shield with Diamonds......Me and a warrior with Headstriker as his prize posession took Act 3-5 all in one night including Ancients.


Now.....The Java is SERIOUSLY a faster killer with the right mobs and can solo Hell Baalz where a Trapper is not nearly as effective but doable......

Your choice........

BTW.....You are missing one very important skills on the Java to really kill small croups with.......Charged Strike maybe? I dont have time to look it up but its a stabbing skill.........

[bigD72]

Well, the thing about the javazon having low life, you also have to remember you're going to have more than JUST blocking going for you. The passive skills dodge/evade/whatever severally decreases a monsters actual chance to hit you as well as the casting spells like slow missle.

I agree that you drastically underestimated the Sin. With the proper techniques of Mind Blast and Cloak of Shadows, you'll probably never get hit. I did all of Hell (minus Act bosses and super uniques) without even getting damaged as my first character returning a couple of months ago. Granted, the killing speed wasn't AMAZING, but really nothing untwinked and solo questing is (except a hammerdin.)

Of the two, I'd say as long as you get an insight stick for your merc, you'll do fine with either so long as you play smart and don't go running where you shouldn't.

[d00m2k]

Thank you! This is what I wanted to hear. If I'm wrong, just call me out.

I'd love to hear more about your Assassin, Stinger. Especially how you took out LI's in 5+ppl games.

I'd also like to hear how Javazons are able to solo hell baal? From my experience they are the worst when there is one or a few mobs on the screen. And also, how they deal with Lightning Immunes. I've read guides, but most of them deal with rediculous gear and non-HC.

Thanks for the help, however because I was leaning towards a Javazon you now made my decision much harder.

[Hp_Sauce]

I've been running the Pits, Eldritch, Shenk, and Andy (running all the way) with my Lightning Trapper. She has 1 point in Shadow Master, and 1 Point in Mind Blast with Maxxed Fire Blast.

It seems to be that there are usually enough non-LI's around to die and get CE'd by DS that the LI's start dropping before I've had time to start throwing Fire Blasts at them. This isn't always the case, but fairly often.

-hps

[PawnOfChaos]

Either build can work very well.

Javazon rocks against single/small mobs, just max charged strike (a synergy for LF anyway) and it's one of the fastest killing skills in the game.

For LI's you can use a merc + valk + the 1 point jab to kill any normal guys. For bosses you could skip them or even shop a lr wand (which I recommend anyway for both javazons and trappers) which can work wonders. I once solo'd dclone with a javazon using a lr wand and cs, only addition I needed was pmh on the merc.

Trappers have an even easier time dealing with LI's.

Some max fire blast, using it to kill the LI's you run into. I personally prefer just lr'ing them or leading them back to corpses to ds them. Another option is 1 point in blade fury, which with some cb (bonesnap on switch even) can demolish LI's and even speed up boss killing by a bit. One giant advantage of a trapper is that once you get a corpse or 2 down, you can ds them and knock out the rest of the LI's quickly.

Oh, and neither build requires + skills. You could easily guardian yourself with only the 20 hard points. This is advantageous to some because they can throw on mf gear without worrying about detracting from their performance. I would suggest you only do this with a trapper in any large degree, since you should never be hit as a trapper anyway, whereas javazon's must either stand still to LF or get close to CS.

Oh my, another advantage of a trapper popped into my head. FADE! Much easier to max res or at least make them manageable by simply using fade (and don't forget the hidden passive of 1% pdr for each hard point of fade. Yet another advantage would be going dual claw and using claw block, which eliminates the need to pump dex for max block. Yada Yada Yada.

In other words, trappers are great untwinked, javazons are great untwinked, pick either one and you'll be happy.

[bigD72]

Yet another advantage would be going dual claw and using claw block, which eliminates the need to pump dex for max block. Yada Yada Yada.

I call that a disadvantage. It's commonly misunderstood that claw block is not good. It doesn't work at all while moving in anyway (AFAIK), the single advantage it has the ability to block elemental/magical attacks. So really, you I say go shield on a trapper because if you're standing still as a trapper that means CoS has been cast in which case you don't even need block.

[PawnOfChaos]

To clarify, I personally don't care much about block on my trappers. Its only necessary if you're going pvp, which being easily absorbed, is generally a bad idea anyway.

Claw Block is certainly advantageous, even though it doesn't work while moving. 1 point in it and throwing a tucs or any + sin gear will give you a decent percentage. I can hardly see how it hurts a character to be able to block elemental attacks as well as phys. Its a viable alternative in my book to using a shield and pumping dex, if you do care about blocking on this character.

That being said, BigD is correct in that, properly played, you really shouldn't be getting hit at all. When I mention claw block, please don't assume I'm suggesting pumping that skill, which I would see as a poor use of available skill points. Its merely a 1 pt wonder for those who do decide to use 2 claws.

My argument in favor of claw block is really directed at those people who decide to use a shield simply for res. You're missing out on a nice defensive skill in claw block, and res can be replaced elsewhere (not gonna suggest using jade since they may not drop for you or be readily available at the start of a new ladder) through really any other gear slot. This again reinforces the fact that trappers are not gear dependent, you are allowed flexibility with swapping in res gear or + skills, whatever you find.

[PhatTrumpet]

I'd also like to hear how Javazons are able to solo hell baal? From my experience they are the worst when there is one or a few mobs on the screen. And also, how they deal with Lightning Immunes. I've read guides, but most of them deal with rediculous gear and non-HC.
Jab + Might Merc + Valk + as much CB/CS/DS/OW as you can pack on will take care of lightning immunes surprisingly quickly (CB = crushing blow, CS = critical strike, DS = deadly strike, OW = open wounds). My personal favorite combo is 'Duress' armor plus Gore Riders. Putting Reaper's on your Merc will also help a ton.

The key to soloing Baal with a Javazon is equipping your Merc to tank a few Gloam bolts without croaking. The easiest way to do this is to stick Blackthorn's on him (+20 lightning absorb).

[STINGER]

Going from memory

The Uber Gear

Smoke Archon (was nice 500+ D)
(2) +3 Trap Claws
Frostys
Imbue +2 Sin Helm (got lucky had (2) resists not real high ones)
(2) Rare Rings from quest rewards they were nice rez rings
Nats Boots
Rare Gambled belt that was nice rez
+3 Trap Ammy with some extra mod

She ended up with 4 skillers but that was really late in life so they were just gravy.

IIRC she had 55 Str/Dex until I needed the extra for the sweet Archon. Had like 1500+ life with charms and all.

Had High Fire Blast
Maxed Shadow Master (She aggrevated people some but she ruled solo)
bunch of the 1 point wonders.....Cloak, Mindblast

Rest was Light....her listed Damage was only in the 3500 maybe?!?! got to like 4300 maybe at the end.

That was my first one, never played a Trapper prior to that and she was alot of fun.

My second one in S2 I went all Light.....went less in Shadow Master not sure what level but made sure she was usefull solo.

Both of them had Lvl 3 LR wands.

She had very similar gear but i found a Shako early, and she had a like 480ish Archon......Didnt have as good of rare luck like the rings and belt and I simply dont recall all the gear.

Both used Barbarian Mercs......Now Might merc would make the Shadow better, btu I selected the Barb as he simply is easier to gear up from crap and lives well with crappy stuff.....natural resists and stunning helps them and you find all kinds of swords he can use that dont hurt his attack speed like a slow pole can a Act 2 guy.

To kill LIs.....several ways. LR Wand and trap......then Fireblast whatever the Merc was attacking......CE and go.

Killing LI Uniques I would Mindblast them to the wall and pin them and keep that up tossing in FB here and there until they died. Do the same thing with Sorcs and that one skill......forget name but u can pick up stuff with it.

Screw 5 player game stuff......I dont care abotu that, and playing solo in 5-8 player isnt how to get high on the ladder its how to get dead!.......If you build well and play well and eventually aquire the gear to solo some bigger games then go for it. I had friends and we did alot of runs that were safe to get where I got.

Mousewiz if she wouldnt of got bored in S1 would of been #1 Sin easy......

Hell I didint even really try to be Top of the ladder, I also made 15 other builds all from 85-94 and did all kinds of crap. If I would of jsut leveled I would of got bored to easy......I just got to Top 10 Sin and kept her there it was all I needed.


The first sin S1 (may of already said this)

(3) PDiamond Shield
+2 Trap Claw (maybe 2)
Stealth Breast plate (uber D :))
Frostys
(3) Saphire Helm (3) Topaz for MF and it was all the MF she had or needed
Those Rare Rings
+3 Trap ammy
Nats boots

Assorted charms.....mana, lifers.....maybe resisits not sure.....55dex/str for claw

Taht was her gear when she became a Guardian with that Barb I mentioned earlier.......

I used Fade 100% of the time.....rarely didint use it and it was only 1 point invested.....went Dual claw as soon as I found my LUM and my Archon....found the Archon first. She got me all the gear I needed for my Sorc to get Meph NM and then the sorc became the MFer.....

GEMS FTW!!!

[winmar]

I havn't read through the thread but a Trapper can kill every enemy in the game. You do not need all the synergies to kill in hell.

Go with LS/DS/FB-build. Fireblast will do decent damage and together with merc, shadow master and DS you will tear through large groups of LI's easily in hell.

You will also have fade which will give some nice free resist. Not that you need it when you are a trppaer though, you will seldom get hit ig you play smart.

I got a lvl 88 trapper and i've done about 100 eldritch/shenk/pindle/pits-runs with all resist in the reds. And im not using any uber gear.

In my opinion a trapper is the best char for HC.
She is not item dependant, you can infact shop for all the items you need.

This is a setup that will work and is very cheap:

2x +2skill claws (shop at anya)
+3 trap amu (gamble)
+3trap/+2 skills circlet (gamble, can also gamble for a unique circlet with other useful mods and socket it with a pruby)
4 soc armor with 4 prubys (or 4 ptopaz)
Unique boots with 20-30% FRW and resists (gamble)
Unique gloves with resist (gamble)
Rings with life/mana/res (gamble)
Use all the life charms you can find.
+90-100 life belt (shop at Larzuk)

As you can see this char is no problem to play untwinked and you will probably find pgems to trade for better gear.

She got a castable minion
Cloak of shadows makes ranged attackers useless
Mind blast will help you in tough situations
She get free resist
She will get 50% block from skills if you use Claw/Claw so no need for massive dex or strength wich means you can spend alot of points in vitality.
She can kill both groups and single strong enemies easily.
She can cast traps infront of her and clear out entire rooms without ever stepping into them herself.

[d00m2k]

I call that a disadvantage. It's commonly misunderstood that claw block is not good. It doesn't work at all while moving in anyway (AFAIK), the single advantage it has the ability to block elemental/magical attacks. So really, you I say go shield on a trapper because if you're standing still as a trapper that means CoS has been cast in which case you don't even need block.

Wait, so are you saying don't go claw/claw, or don't go claw mastery, err wait go shield but don't pump dex?

It's tough to understand.

[STINGER]

Many dont like Claw Block as its only while standing still. Many just cant go without that sheild. The only builds I ever had full block on is my Pallys (too easy) Sorcs and a Zerker and my guys just dont die but very rarely. I have 18 expired living characters from S2 and had 18 expired living characters from S1......6 of them had block.

Both my sins were Dual Claw......lowest STR/DEX I could have to wear my +3 Claws and Archon armor......95/55 IIRC. Both had like 7k+ life with Bo and Oak.......

IIRC in both seasons combined I lost (2) builds, both in NM to FEs and both were Kickers......