View Full Version : Please evaluate my BvC baba...
KICKZILLA
21-07-2006, 15:42
I've gotten most of his gear except about 1/2 more charms, and almost leveled, but there's so many options that I need help to decide. Take note that i'm on ladder so getting 36x 3/20/20's is almost impossible...as perm/legit ones go for like 25 hrs each, even ~3/18/19 or similar ones go for 15+ hrs, so those are unrealistic unless i get very low ones...3/12/13 for example and at that point there's prob better options (20 life, 30+ ar?)
Here goes... first I'll list my setup and then the questions at the bottom. Thanks for any help.
Helm: 31 dr coa
Gloves: 15 str dracs
Belt: arachs and 15 dungo in stash
Main weap: grief z, 35/388
2nd weap: beast z
Armor: dusk enigma, 1300
boots: 30 frw, 10 fhr, 29 cold, 40 lit, 22 fire
ammy: highlords
ring 1: fcr, 19 str, 60 ar, 32 mana, 27 lit res, 3 min dmg
ring 2: 20 dex raven / 2nd fcr ring with 100 ar, res all
On switch: dual dooms and widowmaker in stash
charms (i still need like 20 more scs or gcs)
ar/life
33/20
36/15
19/20
16/20
30/13
23/17
life/mana
20/16
20/14
20/14
20 life/11 fire
18 life/11 lit res
19 life/11 cold
large charm: 6/31/31
20 torch, 20 anni
Going to get 10x 5% fhr scs with res or AR to break 86fhr... not sure on the last 12
Skills are 20 leap, 20 ww, 20 bo, 20 mastery, few speed/res, rest shout.
Base str/dex, all vita.
Here's how the str looks:
setup 1: 30 base, 20 torch, 20 anni, 15 dracs = 85. With dusk enigma, this gives me 152 str at lvl 90, then add 37 more from beast... 189.
setup 2: 30 + 20 + 20 + 15 + 19 from fcr ring = 102 str. Would be 170 at lvl 90, and 207 with beast.
Questions...
1. Isn't max damage bugged with WW? I thought only on the weap it works but armor/charms it doesn't? So wouldn't ar/life sc's be better than ar/max/life?
2. Are Angelics a must or can i rock my setup 99% of the time? fcr/raven/hlords or dual fcr/hlords. What char are they a must vs if any?
3. Is Beast really necessary? Using that 19 str ring, i can still be ~base str w/o the need of beasts 37. The +str from Beast goes to waste as CoA is only 174. Would dual griefs or grief/doom or grief/death be better options? Death gives monster CB and DS and also 20% ar which could help a lil bit to compensate for the fanat aura... so i was thinkin about that for massive dmg?
4. I remember reading that having a fort in stash isn't a bad idea. This would alter my entire setup so i need to know if it doesn't really matter or a must. With 102 base str with +19 ring means 36 pts into strength to wear beast, which would then be enough for coa. Or 2x 19-20 rings would mean ~15 pts into. Is it a must? This would also mean that i must use Beast
5. Random Q I couldn't find the answer to... for breakpoints like fcr, fhr, etc... does it have to go 1 higher (like 87 fhr) or can it be 86?
Any other opinions on the setup? Thanks
oneBlast
21-07-2006, 16:00
Beast fanaticism boosts your primary weapon AR and DMG,
while Deaths AR bonus only works with Death weapon itself.
death doesn't have ias, so it's kinda useless on a WW barb.
KICKZILLA
21-07-2006, 16:10
Thanks... so beast it is I guess.
I just realized that with hel'd widowmaker, still need 30 some pts into dex. Is that bow a must as well?
07 with beast.
Questions...
1. Isn't max damage bugged with WW? I thought only on the weap it works but armor/charms it doesn't? So wouldn't ar/life sc's be better than ar/max/life?
No, this is very incorrect. You're talking about ed/max jewels in anything but weapon.
2. Are Angelics a must or can i rock my setup 99% of the time? fcr/raven/hlords or dual fcr/hlords. What char are they a must vs if any?
Angelics are good to have versus hammerdins, unless you want to have a 6% chance to connect a hit.
3. Is Beast really necessary? Using that 19 str ring, i can still be ~base str w/o the need of beasts 37. The +str from Beast goes to waste as CoA is only 174. Would dual griefs or grief/doom or grief/death be better options? Death gives monster CB and DS and also 20% ar which could help a lil bit to compensate for the fanat aura... so i was thinkin about that for massive dmg?
Death is too slow, it doesn't hit the Last WW IAS Breakpoint. Grief+Beast gives overall the best possible damage. Fanatiscm gives +80% AR. You shouldn't depend on STR or stats from rings.
4. I remember reading that having a fort in stash isn't a bad idea. This would alter my entire setup so i need to know if it doesn't really matter or a must. With 102 base str with +19 ring means 36 pts into strength to wear beast, which would then be enough for coa. Or 2x 19-20 rings would mean ~15 pts into. Is it a must? This would also mean that i must use Beast
Fortitude is _not_ a must, but it's nice to have versus certain people. However myself I'm starting to lean towards of not using Fortitude except versus defensive crapdins.
5. Random Q I couldn't find the answer to... for breakpoints like fcr, fhr, etc... does it have to go 1 higher (like 87 fhr) or can it be 86?
It can be exactly the amount. You should have 48 or 50 FHR depending from charms, 20% fcr with pub setup.
Helm: 31 dr coa
Gloves: 15 str dracs
Belt: arachs and 15 dungo in stash
Main weap: grief z, 35/388
2nd weap: beast z
Armor: dusk enigma, 1300
boots: 30 frw, 10 fhr, 29 cold, 40 lit, 22 fire
ammy: highlords
ring 1: fcr, 19 str, 60 ar, 32 mana, 27 lit res, 3 min dmg
ring 2: 20 dex raven / 2nd fcr ring with 100 ar, res all
On switch: dual dooms and widowmaker in stash
a few pointers:
Belt: dungo is crap, a perfect one adds 120 life total. You will rarely use it, I would rather have a 8/15 string of ears.
Rings: never ever mix ravens+fcr rings, results in nothing. You either use 2x ravens, 2x fcr rings, 1x angelic+1x raven, 2x angelics, 1x light res ring + 1x angelic ring or 2x light res rings.
The priority on FCR rings is: fcr->mana->life->allres->stats
Going to get 10x 5% fhr scs with res or AR to break 86fhr... not sure on the last 12
Isn't worth the life loss ( which is 470 life btw). You already hit 5 frames recovery IIRC, which is faster than anyone will ever cast anything, as the fastest to cast is 7 frames. As for attacks, the effective ones would be smite (6), ww (4). You do not need that 1 frame.
KICKZILLA
21-07-2006, 17:12
Angelics are good to have versus hammerdins, unless you want to have a 6% chance to connect a hit.
Wow is this serious, that bad? Even with 2x 240/20 ravens, and all those stacked ar charms, it would be that bad vs pub/good hammerdins? How bout Smiters because they're all over pub duel games now?
a few pointers:
Belt: dungo is crap, a perfect one adds 120 life total. You will rarely use it, I would rather have a 8/15 string of ears.
Wouldn't the 120 life from dungo be better than 15 less magic dmg from string of ears? The 8 life leech isn't an issue in pvp
Isn't worth the life loss ( which is 470 life btw). You already hit 5 frames recovery IIRC, which is faster than anyone will ever cast anything, as the fastest to cast is 7 frames. As for attacks, the effective ones would be smite (6), ww (4). You do not need that 1 frame.
You're probably right, but the reason i'm considering this is because Smiters have flooded pub duel games. I want to dominate them.. they're skillless chars that can be made with poor gear. Would the 86fhr help a lot vs them or neglible? Also want to be able to take down average barbs
What are your thoughts on the Widowmaker? I would have to put 48 points into dex to use this, that's a lot of life to sacrifice. How helpful is it vs the chars it's used against? Would dual doom on switch do a comparable job?
Thanks for all the help
Wow is this serious, that bad? Even with 2x 240/20 ravens, and all those stacked ar charms, it would be that bad vs pub/good hammerdins? How bout Smiters because they're all over pub duel games now?
Well, lemme count it for you. I assume 33x at least 20 ar scs. 6.2% chance to hit someone who's lvl 99, got 75% block, where your character is lvl 90 and got 10640 AR.
Wouldn't the 120 life from dungo be better than 15 less magic dmg from string of ears? The 8 life leech isn't an issue in pvp
You will mainly use that belt versus Windies and some Smiters. Versus Windies leech equals to "summons = life". As for smiters, 120 life doesn't matter.
You're probably right, but the reason i'm considering this is because Smiters have flooded pub duel games. I want to dominate them.. they're skillless chars that can be made with poor gear. Would the 86fhr help a lot vs them or neglible? Also want to be able to take down average barbs
No it wouldn't, as you already recover faster than they hit, they hit 6 frames, you recover 5. As for "average barbs", you won't beat a decent BvB.
What are your thoughts on the Widowmaker? I would have to put 48 points into dex to use this, that's a lot of life to sacrifice. How helpful is it vs the chars it's used against? Would dual doom on switch do a comparable job?
My own BvC has 49 base dexterity, which is enough to use widowmaker with Arreat's and Angelics, which is the most you will ever need. I use Widowmaker versus defensive trappers, ES sorcs, some windies, defensive boners, crapdins, fohers. I regularly use Dual Dooms on the switch. And no, the dual dooms do not do _anything_ close to the damage of OW from widowmaker. However, Dual dooms are the best to have on switch in pub games, in case of a mas ias kb bowazon.
However, Widowmaker by far is _not_ necessary, it's just safer than telezerking those camping crapdins. However, IIRC, Blobs suggested the use of dual throwable bo weapons on switch to use against crapdins, as the amount of OW is the same. However, this is not good versus ones that move, because throw goes straight, but guided arrows track down a target.
Base stats are overrated; my barb has 72 base str and like 5x base dex and he does fine. I'm also starting to like duress>fort since 2 arrows=OW on your opponent. You could also use hsaru belt+boots in stash vs. hammerdins. Smiters are pretty easy for a barb; just ww away from them when they charge/telesmite and do clip wws if they smite in place
Edit: You can also carry prebuff (treach + bo helm) on a lvl 40-50 a5 merc if you want :)
Base stats are overrated; my barb has 72 base str and like 5x base dex and he does fine. I'm also starting to like duress>fort since 2 arrows=OW on your opponent. You could also use hsaru belt+boots in stash vs. hammerdins. Smiters are pretty easy for a barb; just ww away from them when they charge/telesmite and do clip wws if they smite in place
No offense, but try using those strategies versus good v/ts or smiters. I tell you, isn't gonna work that easily. Good smiters, such as Goldwrap on EUSCNL, will desynch the ****s out of you, or telesmite ahead of your long whirls.
I duel pubs mostly and those strategies handle pub smiters quite well, though they do cry "run" an awful lot
I duel pubs mostly and those strategies handle pub smiters quite well, though they do cry "run" an awful lot
Well, most pub smiters are crappy and use BB and BT and Exile Vortex and think they're godly. Oh, did I forget to mention shift-smiting? A pub, but a better one, will use Holy Freeze and telesmites. This brings trouble, unless you got Enigma. The best ones will use all the possible tricks: desynching, telesmites, holy freeze together with telesmites. These are the ones that you will have _lots_ of trouble beating. They usually also have very high DR, 46% on some realms, on EUSCNL 50% due to BB.
mainaman
21-07-2006, 20:27
Good tactics against telesmiter (non desynching one) is leap, i recently dieled my friends v/t (one of the best on east ladder by the way) and that work very well he cant smite me most of the time which gives me oprtunity to hit him more
as for fortitude, only use i think of now is fc javazons, and some really high def smiters (just for the dmg boost) ,otherwise aginst v/t's ort kiras + tgod+ enigma works just wonderful.
Another thing i discovered is coa+fortitude+tgod +2 ravens+highlord works really well too , the reason i use this is i dont have whisp projector so i can't use hsarus against v/ts
as for the charm selection id go for
5fhr/5 all res, or 5 fhr/11 fr/lr/cr
and get like 3-5 20/11 lr, about that CeOlba did detailed calculation in one of the threads on pg 1
as for hammerdins 1 raven+angelic ring + amulet is totaly enough as it gives about 13k ar ,which is sufficient to hit any hammerdin pretty hard.
yestarday i dueled decynching .08 valk hammerdin with spirit and arma slippers and still beat him with 2 ravens on (~9k ar) so it boils down to practice i guess rather than really top gear.
Good tactics against telesmiter (non desynching one) is leap, i recently dieled my friends v/t (one of the best on east ladder by the way) and that work very well he cant smite me most of the time which gives me oprtunity to hit him more
as for fortitude, only use i think of now is fc javazons, and some really high def smiters (just for the dmg boost) ,otherwise aginst v/t's ort kiras + tgod+ enigma works just wonderful.
Another thing i discovered is coa+fortitude+tgod +2 ravens+highlord works really well too , the reason i use this is i dont have whisp projector so i can't use hsarus against v/ts
as for the charm selection id go for
5fhr/5 all res, or 5 fhr/11 fr/lr/cr
and get like 3-5 20/11 lr, about that CeOlba did detailed calculation in one of the threads on pg 1
as for hammerdins 1 raven+angelic ring + amulet is totaly enough as it gives about 13k ar ,which is sufficient to hit any hammerdin pretty hard.
yestarday i dueled decynching .08 valk hammerdin with spirit and arma slippers and still beat him with 2 ravens on (~9k ar) so it boils down to practice i guess rather than really top gear.
if ur talking about martin(halcyone) he rarely desynch vs my barb, he just foh me by charging away from me out of screen :D
as for the charm selection id go for
5fhr/5 all res, or 5 fhr/11 fr/lr/cr
and get like 3-5 20/11 lr, about that CeOlba did detailed calculation in one of the threads on pg 1
Take in note that the setup allows you to have maximum LR versus any fohadin without any Gear changes, specially good versus V/Ts or pub games. If you duel 1v1 and do not need the resistances, you can even swap the 20/11s for 5x 20/17s and have up to 700 mana with angelics, 900 mana with ravens and 1100 mana with fcr rings.
Here: Well, it depends of what you want. 11x 20/36 and 12x 32020s ends up with 24 less AR than 33x 32020s, which is about 140 AR, but now you have 10 free spots to fill up with 20/17s or 20/11s. I would go with 5x 20/17s and 5x 20/5s. Results in about 700-800 mana with dual ravens, 500ish mana with dual angelics, 900-1000 mana with fcr rings. And what do you lose? 63 Maximum damage, which is about 75 average PvP damage, deadly strike taken into account. Isn't that worth it? This allows you, for example, to use 10x 20/11s to stack lightning resistances. If you already have 4x 5/11s, that makes it total 154 LR from charms. With 64 from nat res, 30 from torch+anni, 48 from boots, 35 from highlord's, 30 from arreat/CoA, you're at 326 LR. Add Fade from Treachery, now you got 386 LR.
386-250-25-25=86, so you got 86 LR, dual ravens, pub setup. Isn't that fine? Now add a TGod's and you're ready to make some fohers or V/ts cry.
It shows that with 12x 32020s, 11x 20/36s, 4x 5/5s or 5/11s, you got 10 spots free for either stacking or mana. The optimal between the two would be about 5 each, resulting in 203 more mana than usually. You only lose 75 PvP average damage, and 140 AR, which both are pretty meaningless.
mainaman
21-07-2006, 20:42
if ur talking about martin(halcyone) he rarely desynch vs my barb, he just foh me by charging away from me out of screen :D
yes im talking about him, but he changed the style he telesmites now no chrging arround, also he doesnt rely on foh too much as he cant touch me .
also he is getting cable which kills his lag and makes him pretty dangerous+ he uses exile which makes the duel quite interesting..its fun dueling him for sure
yes im talking about him, but he changed the style he telesmites now no chrging arround, also he doesnt rely on foh too much as he cant touch me .
also he is getting cable which kills his lag and makes him pretty dangerous+ he uses exile which makes the duel quite interesting..its fun dueling him for sure
:O
ill have to reduel if he changed playing style
and i hate life tap
why use highlords? with beast you already hit max frames so dont need its ias so your just getting some deadly strike, lr, +1skill. Wouldent other ammy's be better. Please explain this. I want to make a BvC soon and need to understand more.
why use highlords? with beast you already hit max frames so dont need its ias so your just getting some deadly strike, lr, +1skill. Wouldent other ammy's be better. Please explain this. I want to make a BvC soon and need to understand more.
This "some deadly strike" turns out to 48.52% more damage when coupled with 22% crushing blow. That's almost half more. The IAS helps you hit the IAS breakpoints for Guided arrows.
What "other ammys"?
A rare 2/20/str/dex/life/mana one? Price? 200x highlord's'? Usefulness? None, except allowing 40% FCR with pub setup, but you lose 48.52% damage. Plus such amulets barely exist.
Metalgrid? The AR is useless, the defense is useless, the allres is useless. What's left? Iron Maiden? Useless. Iron Golem? Useless.
Mara's? The stats are useless, you cannot build on them anyways. The resistances are not needed, thus they're useless too. What's left? +2 skills? that's 3% more life, which can be ignored easily.
This might seem a little harsh, but I'm pretty straigh-forward with such simple things. You see, 48.52% damage cannot be ignored.
Lets all make bvc's now, i can see it soon
BvBvC
This "some deadly strike" turns out to 48.52% more damage when coupled with 22% crushing blow. That's almost half more. The IAS helps you hit the IAS breakpoints for Guided arrows.
What "other ammys"?
A rare 2/20/str/dex/life/mana one? Price? 200x highlord's'? Usefulness? None, except allowing 40% FCR with pub setup, but you lose 48.52% damage. Plus such amulets barely exist.
Metalgrid? The AR is useless, the defense is useless, the allres is useless. What's left? Iron Maiden? Useless. Iron Golem? Useless.
Mara's? The stats are useless, you cannot build on them anyways. The resistances are not needed, thus they're useless too. What's left? +2 skills? that's 3% more life, which can be ignored easily.
This might seem a little harsh, but I'm pretty straigh-forward with such simple things. You see, 48.52% damage cannot be ignored.
Ahh ok that makes scense I thought deadly strike was nerfed in pvp.
Another question I had is since you need widow + 2x doom + prebuff items dosent all the switching get annoying?
Ahh ok that makes scense I thought deadly strike was nerfed in pvp.
Another question I had is since you need widow + 2x doom + prebuff items dosent all the switching get annoying?
You never prebuff your battle orders, outside of team duels, and rarely even in them. Prebuffing is for beginners and the weak, I believe.
I only switch to widow when I get really annoyed by some player, I mean, when they kill me 3-4 times and take golds and potions, or start talking trash. 99% of the time I use 2x dooms on switch.
@Epheira: Please not, that will result in BvBs being the dominant class, which will end up crappy, as I hate BvBs.
yeah, kinda one sided
btw is there a thread 'best char vs hammer' anywhere around ?
Do you accually ever attack with the 2x doom or just flash it to freeze zons ect? Sorry about all the questions but this thread is turning out to be a better guide than any i have seen.
yeah, kinda one sided
btw is there a thread 'best char vs hammer' anywhere around ?
Best anti-hammer classes are minion stacking wind druids or bone necs
Do you accually ever attack with the 2x doom or just flash it to freeze zons ect? Sorry about all the questions but this thread is turning out to be a better guide than any i have seen.
The dooms are so you don't get bo killed easily, almost as many +skills as bo sticks, and do like 50 pvp dmg per flash to take out bled chars from 1 screen away and to help kill minions and to annoy smiters/bowas/trappers
yeah carrying prebuff items takes up to much space, i got rid of my 5 bo deli and skill rings to make space for more usefull items.
I personally never found the need for 2x doom on switch i thin usally 1 is enough and when i do use i wield it with the grief.
KICKZILLA
22-07-2006, 07:09
Well, lemme count it for you. I assume 33x at least 20 ar scs. 6.2% chance to hit someone who's lvl 99, got 75% block, where your character is lvl 90 and got 10640 AR.
About this... do you have a % for vs a lvl 90? The highest I ever see in pubs is like early 90's so 99 isn't realistic.
I'm definitely going to use Angelics as well but I'd like to know how often I need to switch to them or if I can keep on 2x raven / 2x fcr rings most of the time vs comparable lvl Hammerdins and such.
As for Widowmaker... I suggest everyone level their char and try out 2x Doom and see how it fairs vs all the builds which Widowmaker would be useful against. At least that's what I'm gonna do... to save like 50 stat pts at lvl 90, then decide after.
About this... do you have a % for vs a lvl 90? The highest I ever see in pubs is like early 90's so 99 isn't realistic.
Then it's 7.46%. Remember it counts in max block.
I'm definitely going to use Angelics as well but I'd like to know how often I need to switch to them or if I can keep on 2x raven / 2x fcr rings most of the time vs comparable lvl Hammerdins and such.
2x fcr rings is foolish, will result in every smiter beating up your ***, as you will have like 8k ar and they got 30k defense. Gogo with like 2-5% chance to hit.
As for Widowmaker... I suggest everyone level their char and try out 2x Doom and see how it fairs vs all the builds which Widowmaker would be useful against. At least that's what I'm gonna do... to save like 50 stat pts at lvl 90, then decide after.
It's _not_ 50 stat points. To myself, I put 29 points into dexterity, which is by far the most I will ever need, as 49+38+20+10=117, meaning I can use Widowmaker with Arreat's and Angelic's. Why the heck do you compare Dooms with Widowmaker? They're _not_ the same thing. You cannot kill hammerdins with 2xDooms.
You really should think about what you say. The weapons have different purposes:
Widowmaker: To make defensive players offensive, to cause open wounds to trigger, to cause lifetap to trigger, to have a ranged attack.
Dooms: To slow down bowazons and smiters, to kill opponent's that are on 1 life, to help you NK people in pubs, to help your team in team duels, to kill the summons or oak of a Windie.
See? They do not share a single thing in common, except that they both deal damage.
Do you accually ever attack with the 2x doom or just flash it to freeze zons ect? Sorry about all the questions but this thread is turning out to be a better guide than any i have seen.
I actually _do_ attack people with 2x Dooms. I find the flash time too short for people who have a ravenfrost, and most do.
Characters I attack with dual dooms: Bowazons, Javazons, Smiters (only some), running Trappers
From my experience, dual angelic is not viable against because it seriously cripples your mana.
I would go base dexterity, Angelic + 1 Ring + 20dex Raven and use a tal belt instead of whatever you're using. With a decent torch and anni, you should have enough dexterity to use a hel'd widow, and decent mana to keep you going.
From my experience, dual angelic is not viable against because it seriously cripples your mana.
With good enough whirling you will be able to save up the manas.
I would go base dexterity, Angelic + 1 Ring + 20dex Raven and use a tal belt instead of whatever you're using. With a decent torch and anni, you should have enough dexterity to use a hel'd widow, and decent mana to keep you going.
Base dexterity is overrated by far. Well, myself I have a few reasons why not to:
A) I want to use Widowmaker _and_ TGod's versus defensive trappers, not gonna happen if I depend on Tal's Belt.
B) I want to have as high AR as possible versus defensive hammerdins, not gonna happen with 1 raven and 1 angelic.
C) It's already kind of a tradition.
A) I want to use Widowmaker _and_ TGod's versus defensive trappers, not gonna happen if I depend on Tal's Belt.
B) I want to have as high AR as possible versus defensive hammerdins, not gonna happen with 1 raven and 1 angelic.
C) It's already kind of a tradition.
A) Dual raven?
B) Hammerdins can barely reach 20K defense, and all the defense goes into the drain pipe when they charge anyway.
C) Traditions are made to be broken.
A) Dual raven?
B) Hammerdins can barely reach 20K defense, and all the defense goes into the drain pipe when they charge anyway.
C) Traditions were made to be broken.
A) But I want to use 2x fcr rings of course, otherwise I tele too slowly. And my boots allow this, as they got +13 dexterity
B) You got 9.84% chance to hit someone of your lvl with 20k defense if you got 13k AR. Counting in maximum block%. That's not too good. Compared to the 13.8% chance to hit with 25k AR.
C) Traditions are something people do for fun, yet they also want to depend on them. Traditions are foolish. But when it comes to BvCs, it's not.
KICKZILLA
23-07-2006, 04:36
It's _not_ 50 stat points. To myself, I put 29 points into dexterity, which is by far the most I will ever need, as 49+38+20+10=117, meaning I can use Widowmaker with Arreat's and Angelic's.
It _is_ 50 stat points for me. Since I'm pub dueling, I really don't want to keep switching helms for diff chars (arreats/coa) too often, so it's either 50 into dex for Widow or not. I'll switch to Arreats on certain occasions but for the most part want to keep my original equip. I'm leaning towards doing it based on what you've been saying... it also seems kinda fun and different, to be honest.
Trading tip for anyone on ladder having trouble getting gg melee charms...
- look for max/ar/life gcs/lcs instead. 9-10 max are the best... I got:
10/76/31 gc
10/53/39 gc
6/31/31 lc
...for fairly cheap, about 5-6x for the first two, the 3rd less than half that. Now compare that to 8 ar/max/life small charms with similar total stats (like 3/20/10 or 3/15/13 etc), each one of those sc's would cost you well over 5x, more than an inv full of hrs. So you're saving a lot by going with gcs/lcs... most people don't realize the value of these types of charms so you can get em for cheap.
Also look into ar/life... 120+ ar/35 life gc for example. And even the snake's (or w/e they're called) charms... I have one that's around 30+ life and 59 mana, which would be 3 small charms at 10-12 life/20 mana a piece... damn nice. I got that one for free too...
morotsjos
23-07-2006, 12:32
From my experience, dual angelic is not viable against because it seriously cripples your mana.
I would go base dexterity, Angelic + 1 Ring + 20dex Raven and use a tal belt instead of whatever you're using. With a decent torch and anni, you should have enough dexterity to use a hel'd widow, and decent mana to keep you going.
never ever use angelic+raven. NEVER.
It _is_ 50 stat points for me. Since I'm pub dueling, I really don't want to keep switching helms for diff chars (arreats/coa) too often, so it's either 50 into dex for Widow or not. I'll switch to Arreats on certain occasions but for the most part want to keep my original equip. I'm leaning towards doing it based on what you've been saying... it also seems kinda fun and different, to be honest.
Well, you will _never_ switch any gear in pubs, except for helm and rings, and you will _never_ need fcr rings, CoA _and_ widowmaker in 1v1, and in teamduels you should already have someone with range.
- look for max/ar/life gcs/lcs instead. 9-10 max are the best... I got:
10/76/31 gc
10/53/39 gc
6/31/31 lc
...for fairly cheap, about 5-6x for the first two, the 3rd less than half that. Now compare that to 8 ar/max/life small charms with similar total stats (like 3/20/10 or 3/15/13 etc), each one of those sc's would cost you well over 5x, more than an inv full of hrs. So you're saving a lot by going with gcs/lcs... most people don't realize the value of these types of charms so you can get em for cheap.
Max/ar/life gcs are bad. They only got half of the AR of a ar/life gc, so you will need 5-7 of them to compensate the loss of 3 ar/life gcs, meaning you lose more life. The best that there is would be high-end ar/life lcs, as you then only lose 5 life and gain 70ish AR, after bonuses that's 400 each.
Also look into ar/life... 120+ ar/35 life gc for example. And even the snake's (or w/e they're called) charms... I have one that's around 30+ life and 59 mana, which would be 3 small charms at 10-12 life/20 mana a piece... damn nice. I got that one for free too...
Well. If you're after mana, go with Serpent's of Vita, that can end up with 60ish mana and up to 45 life. As for the ar/life gcs, that's what I use, three of them.
The build setup I got is a all-realm variation of Mcm's build, and mcm is the guy who made BvCs into what they're today.
never ever use angelic+raven. NEVER.
So true. Results in half-decent mana and half-decent AR, not good. As I pointed out, you _will_ have enough mana versus hammerdins, unless you go with teleporting, and if you plan to do that, get some life/mana scs or use 2x ravenfrosts.
mainaman
23-07-2006, 18:25
well i use one angelic+ raven + angelic amulet against hammerdins. i have ~13k ar (no enchant) and 600+ mana, perfectly enough to beat any hammerdin in my experience.
im experimenting with hsarus set up + ravens and highlord, and i like the results so far.
morotsjos
23-07-2006, 19:48
2x ravens+hl > angelic+raven by far. i dont really care if you guys want to use inferior setups but you dont have to fool the newcomers.
2x ravens+hl > angelic+raven by far. i dont really care if you guys want to use inferior setups but you dont have to fool the newcomers.
angelic+raven gives about the same AR as 2xravens would with mass 32020s. However, using angelic+raven means you got middle AR, but you miss 34%DS. You could always just use 2x ravens and Enchant, results in about 13k AR even with welfare setups, while keeping ther 34%DS of course. For more than 13k AR, use 2x angelics.
Also, the 95 mana you gain by using 1 Ravenfrost is just useless.
@Maina If you got 600 mana with angelic+raven, you got about 500 mana with 2x angelics, which is by far enough.
mainaman
23-07-2006, 21:15
angelic+raven gives about the same AR as 2xravens would with mass 32020s. However, using angelic+raven means you got middle AR, but you miss 34%DS. You could always just use 2x ravens and Enchant, results in about 13k AR even with welfare setups, while keeping ther 34%DS of course. For more than 13k AR, use 2x angelics.
Also, the 95 mana you gain by using 1 Ravenfrost is just useless.
@Maina If you got 600 mana with angelic+raven, you got about 500 mana with 2x angelics, which is by far enough.
you are absolutely right i was just ponting that that combo works pretty well against hammerdins , but as i said recently against hammerdins i use hsarus+ 2 ravens and highlords, thus i get to keep 34% ds + pretty high ar withought enchant
KICKZILLA
24-07-2006, 14:13
Well, you will _never_ switch any gear in pubs, except for helm and rings, and you will _never_ need fcr rings, CoA _and_ widowmaker in 1v1, and in teamduels you should already have someone with range.
Sigh... I still haven't decided. I've got 50 stat pts saved up, my life is 5.4k at lvl 84 and I have 19k AR with Angelics. I'm not sure what to do. So you're saying since I'm mainly pub dueling, to not drop the 50 into dex for Widow? Pub dueling does tend to end up 1 vs 1 many times so I'm not sure...
I'd really like to see a Widow in action, anyone on USEast ladder?
Max/ar/life gcs are bad. They only got half of the AR of a ar/life gc, so you will need 5-7 of them to compensate the loss of 3 ar/life gcs, meaning you lose more life. The best that there is would be high-end ar/life lcs, as you then only lose 5 life and gain 70ish AR, after bonuses that's 400 each.
You're contradicting yourself here. I've seen you post many times "36x 3/20/20's" or whatever in BvC topics. 3/20/20's can only give a max of 60 ar in 3 blocks, while a max/ar/life gc can go higher...
Sigh... I still haven't decided. I've got 50 stat pts saved up, my life is 5.4k at lvl 84 and I have 19k AR with Angelics. I'm not sure what to do. So you're saying since I'm mainly pub dueling, to not drop the 50 into dex for Widow? Pub dueling does tend to end up 1 vs 1 many times so I'm not sure...
Well, you could of course try it. If you do not like it, remake.
You're contradicting yourself here. I've seen you post many times "36x 3/20/20's" or whatever in BvC topics. 3/20/20's can only give a max of 60 ar in 3 blocks, while a max/ar/life gc can go higher...
But you lose at least 15 life each, which turns into 36 life after Bo. You gain 94 AR, +1 Max damage and lose 36 life, not worth it.
Also, I never say 36x 32020s, I always say 33x 32020s, as this allows 4x fhr scs, anni and torch. Where did you get a random number such as 36?
KICKZILLA
24-07-2006, 15:16
33/36 whatever... 36 because anni/torch btw. You lose about 15-25 life total (30~60 after bo) by using an ar/max/life gc over 3x 3/20/20's. Gain 1 max dmg, gain 15-20 ar. So yes 3/20/20's are better but like I said in the orig post, perm/legit ones cost like 25 hr on Ladder, so it's unrealistic... therefore ar/max/life gcs are a good option.
Final stats for my baba end up like this... wearing Angelics
5850-5900 life @ lvl 90 if I drop the 45-50 pts into dex for Widow
6300-6350 life @ lvl 90 if I don't drop the pts into dex
I put 27 pts into STR so I can wear CoA w/o Beast (Dooms on switch/potential Widow)... Dex is base, rest Vita
AR right now is 18.7k with Angelics and w/o enchant from Limb
13 skill pts remaining @ lvl 90. Defense with 1 point into Shout is 9.3k. Increased speed is lvl 14, Natural res around 14 as well. Not sure what to do with those 13 pts
Leap is lvl 14 @ 16 yards... it would take lvl 17 to get the next upgrade at 16.6, not sure about that either.
Final stats for my baba end up like this... wearing Angelics
5850-5900 life @ lvl 90 if I drop the 45-50 pts into dex for Widow
6300-6350 life @ lvl 90 if I don't drop the pts into dex
This life looks really low. My barb, with 65/49 base stats has 6110 life. With pure vitality, he would have about 6700 life.
AR right now is 18.7k with Angelics and w/o enchant from Limb
Your AR with Angelics doesn't matter. Your AR with pubsetup does. Make sure it's about 10k.
13 skill pts remaining @ lvl 90. Defense with 1 point into Shout is 9.3k. Increased speed is lvl 14, Natural res around 14 as well. Not sure what to do with those 13 pts
How many base points?
Leap is lvl 14 @ 16 yards... it would take lvl 17 to get the next upgrade at 16.6, not sure about that either.
Whatever the skill says is the _distance you can jump_, not the _distance the kb effects_. The KB effect has a special formula, which I do not remember, but lvl 19 is the minimum for a full screen stun. However, as the Leap radius is somekind of a circle, it doesn't cover the corners. A few more points for the corners. However, 20 base points in Leap helps a lot in TvT and versus camping casters.
Clicktoseename
24-07-2006, 17:37
Noob question: What is Tvt and Bvc?
Noob question: What is Tvt and Bvc?
Team versus Team
Barbarian versus Caster
KICKZILLA
24-07-2006, 19:02
This life looks really low. My barb, with 65/49 base stats has 6110 life. With pure vitality, he would have about 6700 life.
Your AR with Angelics doesn't matter. Your AR with pubsetup does. Make sure it's about 10k.
Yeah, I believe it is around 9-10k w/o Angelics. I don't what to tell you about the 'really low' life.
- What level BO? Mine is only 33 with BC (+9 skills, +4 from Doom)
- Are you BO'ing with +2 Arreats or +1 CoA? I use CoA, so that could be it
- Do you BO with a +5 helm?
- Do you BO with warcry weaps or dual dooms? I use dooms
Here are my charms exactly...
20/12/10 anni
19/18 torch
119/39 ar/life gc
108/35 gc
93/40 gc
123/30 gc
10/76/31 ar/max/life
10/53/39
8/74/32
6/31/31 LC
just the life on the scs: 18, 16, 16, 15, 20, 20, 20, 15, 20, 17, 20, 20
How many base points?
I have +9 skills with BC, so 5 base each in Speed and Nat res.
Whatever the skill says is the _distance you can jump_, not the _distance the kb effects_. The KB effect has a special formula, which I do not remember, but lvl 19 is the minimum for a full screen stun. However, as the Leap radius is somekind of a circle, it doesn't cover the corners. A few more points for the corners. However, 20 base points in Leap helps a lot in TvT and versus camping casters.
I may put 5 pts into it for 19 like you're suggesting but maxing seems overkill, imo. Those points would probably be more useful in Shout...
Yeah, I believe it is around 9-10k w/o Angelics. I don't what to tell you about the 'really low' life.
- What level BO? Mine is only 33 with BC (+9 skills, +4 from Doom)
- Are you BO'ing with +2 Arreats or +1 CoA? I use CoA, so that could be it
- Do you BO with a +5 helm?
- Do you BO with warcry weaps or dual dooms? I use dooms
I bo with CoA, Highlord's and Dual Dooms. Bo lvl 34. I do not prebuff my Bo.
Here are my charms exactly...
20/12/10 anni
19/18 torch
119/39 ar/life gc
108/35 gc
93/40 gc
123/30 gc
10/76/31 ar/max/life
10/53/39
8/74/32
6/31/31 LC
just the life on the scs: 18, 16, 16, 15, 20, 20, 20, 15, 20, 17, 20, 20
This might be it. You see, I use 3x gcs, 35, 38 and 30 life. Rest 20 life scs. I got 9377 AR.
I may put 5 pts into it for 19 like you're suggesting but maxing seems overkill, imo. Those points would probably be more useful in Shout...
Shout means pretty much nothing to a BvC. Only a little more defence, which only helps versus WWsins, a little more Bo duration, which helps in longer duels. However, the experts say that you shouldn't maximize Leap for pub games. However, for pubgames, you do not need any Bo duration either, as pub duels are supposed to be quick kills.
Ce Olba
Where have you consulted with the experts you seem like one already haha? Were is the Mcm guide? I hear you speak of different gear and skill point distribution for pub vs serious/tourney vs team dueling. What are the gear setups and point distributions for the two different setups? I understand there is some gear switching based on the character your facing so I was hoping for a bit more explination on this. You might as well write your own guide to host here on the d2.net forums :grin:
Ce Olba
Where have you consulted with the experts you seem like one already haha?
In the theoretical side yes, but on the dueling side, not.
Were is the Mcm guide?
It's quite hard to spot, so I will just copy it here
New baba recipe:
Level 94
64 Base Strength
57 Base Dexterity
434 Base Vitality
10 Base Energy
20 WW
20 Axe Mastery
20 Battle Orders
16 Shout (duration synergy, trade off with leap/NR as you see fit)
10 Leap (full screen stun w/ most setups)
9 Natural Res (64% res all w/ most setups)
1 Battle Command (Cheap +1 all)
1 Zerk (For bonewalling/ironmaiden/summon using necros, if in doubt, carry a life tap wand.)
1 Howl (Summon scattering tool)
1 Inc Speed (Decrep + Inc Speed = Still faster than Bone Spirit)
1 Bash (Prereq, useless)
1 Leap Attack (Prereq, useless)
1 Conc (Prereq, useless)
1 Stun (Prereq, useless)
1 Inc Stamina (Prereq, useless)
35x 3/20/20
2x 5res/5fhr
2x 11lres/5fhr
1x 20/xx/x Anni
So if the need arises it can do this:
vs T/V w/ Grief
Use: BER/BER COA, 30% res Fort archon, 19+str/45+lres boots, TGods, Grief Zerk, 36+str Beast Zerk, Highlords, 2x Perf Ravens, Dracs, widowmaker on swap, prebuff with limb, bo, last wish fade.
Result: 6.9k life, 13k AR, 48% FHR bp, 42% PDR, >150% light res stacked over 90% in Hell, life tap lasts for 1 second, 5k-5.6k/1k-4k ww dmg (65/49.3% Double Dmg, 25/50% OW), 400-1.6k guided dmg (68% Double Dmg, 25% OW)
Beat it like a mage (hammer/foh). 90% stacked light res makes foh = mush, guided makes smiter move to you, ww away makes smite = mush.
And still do this:
vs Necro
Use: 2/20/2 Barb Circlet w/ 79ed/16str from jewels, Enigma, Gore Riders, 9% OW +29str 10%fhr belt, Grief Zerk, Beast Zerk, Highlords, 10fcr/99ar/19str/81mana/10resall ring, 10fcr/100ar/20str/32life/27%fres ring, Dracs, prebuff with limb, bo.
Result: 7k life, 9.8k AR, 500 mana, 30% FHR bp, 4.8-5.4k/940-3.7k ww dmg (77/61% Double Dmg, 44/69% OW), 10 frame cast, full screen leap.
And still do the "usual things" for other "usual opponents".
Now go! make me some cookies.
It's mainly about the gear and skill points.
I hear you speak of different gear and skill point distribution for pub vs serious/tourney vs team dueling. What are the gear setups and point distributions for the two different setups?
Well, for public games, where you're not supposed to switch any gear, for "pro" people, I would say go pure vitality, results in more life than anything, but cripples the performance because of depending of so many things. 63/47 is the universal TvT/tourney setup, I would say, as it allows you use use CoA + Grief + Beast + TGod's + Fortitude versus, say, V/Ts. It also allows you to use Widowmaker with Arreat's and Angelic's, which is the setup you will most likely use it with. As for stats, the only variations I can think of are the Leap ones. For team duels, 20 points in Leap is a _very good choice_, whereas for pubs it's up to the preferances of the individual.
I understand there is some gear switching based on the character your facing so I was hoping for a bit more explination on this. You might as well write your own guide to host here on the d2.net forums :grin:
Well, a few common items here and their explanations:
Fortitude: Used to gain massive damage to your Grief+Beast side in duels where teleport is not needed. Example opponents include: V/T, Mage, Windy, Smiter, WWsin
Widowmaker: Used to have any kind of a ranged attack. It also allows you to "foce" defensive characters on the offense. Usually socketed with a 'Hel' rune to avoid the huge dexterity requirement. Example opponents include: Hammerdin, Windy, Boner, Trapper, ES sorc. However, some of these are some that I myself use, haven't seen anyone else recommend a few of these.
Duress: usually used to for the +33% OW. Very useful to force hammerdins on the offense, as you now got about 68-78% OW, meaning almost every arrows triggers OW.
Angelics: Used to gain AR to boost the chance to hit versus high defense opponents or opponents where chance to hit is crucial. Example opponents include: Hammerdin, Smiter, WWsin.
2x FCR rings: used to gain huge Mana to play very offensively. Usually have stats like 10% fcr, >60 mana. Additional good stats include: life, allres, high lightning or cold res. Example opponents: Windy, Trapper, Sorceress
I think that sums it up pretty well.
I've said a few times that I _might_ write a guide, but I'm not promising anything.
WhiteAlien
25-07-2006, 04:20
Since when you need angelics against wwsins?
and
Shout will not help against wwsin either as with fool's 2*ravens and enchant can get 20k+AR.
Romper Stomper
25-07-2006, 06:49
Since when you need angelics against wwsins?
and
Shout will not help against wwsin either as with fool's 2*ravens and enchant can get 20k+AR.
More def + bo/bc duration never hurt. Not like those skill points are going anywhere else in the mid 90's.
morotsjos
25-07-2006, 10:44
More def + bo/bc duration never hurt. Not like those skill points are going anywhere else in the mid 90's.
speed ^^
WhiteAlien: if you play a bit with the chance-to-hit equation you'll see that defense is immensely useful vs wwsins no matter their ar.
KICKZILLA
25-07-2006, 10:53
Since when you need angelics against wwsins?
and
Shout will not help against wwsin either as with fool's 2*ravens and enchant can get 20k+AR.
Even more than that... I remember my wwsin getting like 34k ar with angelics and fool's claw with Enchant from Limb. She was nuts :cry:
Since when you need angelics against wwsins?
You do _not_ _need_ any gear changes, anywhere, ever. You can beat every damn build out there with gear bought from NM Charsi. However, it's just a bit harder than beating them with better gear. As for Angelics, if you got less Chance to Hit than the WWsin, your higher life will be useless, as they will hit more and thus do more damage over a period and so they might even win.
Shout will not help against wwsin either as with fool's 2*ravens and enchant can get 20k+AR.
Here you go again, theorycrafting and basing things on LCS. Yes, Shout will help against a WWsin, no matter the AR. A WWsin will _never_ have 95% Chance to hit a BvC, so it's always useful.
Using widowmaker sounds pretty fun even though it would be annoying subbing it out for dooms while trying to kill ppl. If i used a hel'ed widowmaker and wore CoA what would my base dex be around? I am trying to avoid having to sub helms ane other gear since i am going to risk dieing already just getting the widowmaker on. How much life would I lose after bo from adding the neccisary dex>??
Thanks :grin:
morotsjos
25-07-2006, 18:35
You do _not_ _need_ any gear changes, anywhere, ever. You can beat every damn build out there with gear bought from NM Charsi. However, it's just a bit harder than beating them with better gear. As for Angelics, if you got less Chance to Hit than the WWsin, your higher life will be useless, as they will hit more and thus do more damage over a period and so they might even win.
wrong and wrong and angelics are utterly crap vs sins.
wrong and wrong and angelics are utterly crap vs sins.
Well, well. I know I was a bit overboard with the Charsi'ed items. However, you by far do not need any major gear changes to beat builds. As for angelics vs sins, that's up to the individual. Myself I do not bother.
morotsjos
25-07-2006, 20:49
Well, well. I know I was a bit overboard with the Charsi'ed items. However, you by far do not need any major gear changes to beat builds. As for angelics vs sins, that's up to the individual. Myself I do not bother.
actually you do. there aren't many top duelers of any class that you can beat with pubgear (fury druids are an exception hehe). i wont even mention pallies who require major gear switching.
using angelics vs low-def chars like sins is just plain dumb and might even cause a loss.
Just admit you were wrong, angelics are useless vs low def chars.
mainaman
25-07-2006, 22:12
well true, the only time i would use angelics is really high defence smiters and zealers, but these are pretty rare
2 ravnes+highlords is good enough.
actually you do. there aren't many top duelers of any class that you can beat with pubgear (fury druids are an exception hehe). i wont even mention pallies who require major gear switching.
If so, then tell me, why the hell is there such a thing as "pubsetup", if it's not designed for pub games. And yes, you _do_ beat people with pubsetup, you're a living example of this. I do not see you switch gear for each and every duel you do in pubs. As for 1v1 versus the _best_, that's a whole different issue, as the "best", well, there's about 1-3 for each type of build for each realm.
using angelics vs low-def chars like sins is just plain dumb and might even cause a loss.
Might be. However, WWsins are too rare to be bothered with.
Just admit you were wrong, angelics are useless vs low def chars.
Yes, they might be "useless" versus low defense characters, however, counting in the claw block, if you have 85% chance to hit the assassin without Block, with block that's 51%. Compared to 57% if you have 95% chance to hit. 6% _does_ make a difference, I'm afraid. And I do not think you got the knowledge/authority to tell me what to do or not do. With 10k AR from pubsetup, you got 46.1% chance to hit a 3k def WWsin as long as you're same lvl. Compared to the 51.4% chance with 18k AR. That's 5.3% difference. If that is or isn't worth the loss of 48.52% damage, it's up to the individual. Myself I do not bother with Angelics, Enchant's good enough.
Yes, they might be "useless" versus low defense characters, however, counting in the claw block, if you have 85% chance to hit the assassin without Block, with block that's 51%. Compared to 57% if you have 95% chance to hit. 6% _does_ make a difference, I'm afraid. And I do not think you got the knowledge/authority to tell me what to do or not do. With 10k AR from pubsetup, you got 46.1% chance to hit a 3k def WWsin as long as you're same lvl. Compared to the 51.4% chance with 18k AR. That's 5.3% difference. If that is or isn't worth the loss of 48.52% damage, it's up to the individual. Myself I do not bother with Angelics, Enchant's good enough.
No, counting block would be 34% and 38% chance to hit. You think a small chance to hit is actually worth losing all that damage? It obviously isn't worth it, and everyone other than you seems to know this.
I don't have the knowledge/authority? All i have is one of the best barbs on USWest, while you sit here telling people to use Ort armors and String of Ears while using your calculator.
Romper Stomper
26-07-2006, 05:11
I already showed you people how to do this math.
http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=4243446&postcount=43
morotsjos
26-07-2006, 11:09
If so, then tell me, why the hell is there such a thing as "pubsetup", if it's not designed for pub games. And yes, you _do_ beat people with pubsetup, you're a living example of this. I do not see you switch gear for each and every duel you do in pubs. As for 1v1 versus the _best_, that's a whole different issue, as the "best", well, there's about 1-3 for each type of build for each realm.
let me remind you, this is what you wrote:
"You do _not_ _need_ any gear changes, anywhere, ever. You can beat every damn build out there (without switches). However, it's just a bit harder than beating them with better gear."
you are way off into theoryland here so drop that attitude. now.
That's 5.3% difference. If that is or isn't worth the loss of 48.52% damage, it's up to the individual.
clearly only an utter retard would even mention angelics in this case.
10 k ar vs a wwsin is enough using ravens + hls the angelics is far to much to use vs a 2-3k 58%-60% block assa
No, counting block would be 34% and 38% chance to hit. You think a small chance to hit is actually worth losing all that damage? It obviously isn't worth it, and everyone other than you seems to know this.
I do not think that it is. Learn to read already. I said "I do not bother". How about that translating into "I do not think it is"? Eh? I was saying it from the start that it's not worth it, however people still continued to attack me with odd arguments.
I don't have the knowledge/authority? All i have is one of the best barbs on USWest, while you sit here telling people to use Ort armors and String of Ears while using your calculator.
Then, how come I've never heard of any other UsWest BvCs except Blobs and mcm? Mm? I never said to use Ort armors. I've always said that _I use them due to low wealth_. And I _did_ say that if I could, I would use 2x high LR rings. Learn to read more carefully please? As for String of Ears, yes, I do consider it better than Dungo, because you will rarely even need any more DR than you already have from pubsetup. And as for why I do not go boast about "how fuukin godli" I'm on Diablo, well, that's because I do not consider myself that good. But also because I rarely anymore play the game.
let me remind you, this is what you wrote:
I know 100% what I wrote.
you are way off into theoryland here so drop that attitude. now.
What Theoryland? What attitude? I've only said that Angelic's have 5% more chance to hit versus a WWsin and that I do not bother to switch gears for 5%. Not like it matters, there's just about zero WWsins in pubs right now.
clearly only an utter retard would even mention angelics in this case.
Might be. I did say that I do not bother switching like that. However, I left the reasoning behind. Well, a few reasons:
A) deadly strike
b) LR
c) cbf
Happy now? By far I'm _not_ going against the age old BvC gods, such as mcm and Blobs.
Oh yeah, and I did have quite a pause in my post when posting "WWsin" under "Angelics". I guess I did have a bit of a misjudgment there. I didn't bother to count the CtH before posting that. Too bad. I was just thinking that the WWsin might win if they have like 20-30% higher CtH. But it turned out that they got 66.6% CtH if the barb has 10k defense.
How come you haven't yet attacked me for saying to use Widowmaker versus Boners or Trappers or ES sorcs? Isn't that against the rules? Isn't Widowmaker there only for hammerdins?
morotsjos
26-07-2006, 16:27
your attitude blows. you are arrogant and self-righteous. you cant keep a civil tone but jump people and get into huge arguments over the most worthless trifles. you have a lot of loud opinions about things you will never be able to perform yourself. still you are rude and unpleasant, which is strange considering that you dont have any practical basis whatsoever for most of your claims. you never miss an opportunity to brag about your english skills and your theoretical knowledge about d2, despite obvious deficiencies in both. you never accept/admit mistakes. this has been going on long enough. stop. now.
widowmaker is a waste of time vs non-hammers and totally worthless against necs btw.
your attitude blows. you are arrogant and self-righteous. you cant keep a civil tone but jump people and get into huge arguments over the most worthless trifles. you have a lot of loud opinions about things you will never be able to perform yourself. still you are rude and unpleasant, which is strange considering that you dont have any practical basis whatsoever for most of your claims. you never miss an opportunity to brag about your english skills and your theoretical knowledge about d2, despite obvious deficiencies in both. you never accept/admit mistakes. this has been going on long enough. stop. now.
Mm. Some people say how I should make a guide or something, or how I know so much, which is by far untrue. I've barely got any mathematical knowledge of BvCs. And I've never even said that I would be among the good BvCs. By far I'm not. As for the English part, I've never said how "godli I aer" in English, I've only noted a few people about some small mistakes. Is it bad that I want to do that? If so, ask me to be banned. That happening ever, I doubt. I do accept/admit mistakes, but it's quite hard to do so when people keep rerolling the same question after I've already answered it. The hell of it, if it's not me who's talking, then it's you. That's for sure. However I do not remember myself whining about how you talk "so unpleasantly".
widowmaker is a waste of time vs non-hammers and totally worthless against necs btw.
Might be, however it's a little thing I like to use. For example, trappers who camp in their traps and spam MBs to the edge of the screen. Good to annoy them by shooting GAs at them. As for the necro part, yes, it is pretty trashy, however it's still a half-decent way to inflict ow on over-defensive boners. As for ES sorcs, again, a nice way to trigger OW. You may disagree as much as you want, but that's how I see it.
Just to make it clear: I made a misjudgment when putting "WWsin" under opponents that you should use Angelics against, and that's simply due to the fact that I overestimated their CtH. And I've myself only once used Angelics versus a WWsin, did not lose that match though. And WWsins are so uncommon in pub games nowdays that it doesn't really even matter, or does it? As for Morotsjos' offensive comments about me acting like someone special, that's untrue. I've only said that I have brief knowledge of the theoretical side and some experience on the actual dueling side of things. However I couldn't possibly go judging the best BvCs by my experiences, as I lack both skill and wealth to do so. Whatever Morotsjos said hurt me pretty bad, as that's like saying that the time I spent making and dueling with my BvC would've all just been for nothing.
I do not think that it is. Learn to read already. I said "I do not bother". How about that translating into "I do not think it is"? Eh? I was saying it from the start that it's not worth it, however people still continued to attack me with odd arguments.
You mean you thought it was a better setup but now that you've been proven wrong you back off from your statements.
Then, how come I've never heard of any other UsWest BvCs except Blobs and mcm? Mm? I never said to use Ort armors. I've always said that _I use them due to low wealth_. And I _did_ say that if I could, I would use 2x high LR rings. Learn to read more carefully please? As for String of Ears, yes, I do consider it better than Dungo, because you will rarely even need any more DR than you already have from pubsetup. And as for why I do not go boast about "how fuukin godli" I'm on Diablo, well, that's because I do not consider myself that good. But also because I rarely anymore play the game.
Blobs and mcm aren't the only ones with good barbs. You never even mention blobswannabe who has one of the best barbs on USWest. Some guy from Europe not knowing people means nothing. You insist on using ort armor against fohers, which is completely useless when you can kill them in 1 second with a telewhirl. If you don't think you are good, what are you doing telling people what to do?
Oh yeah, and I did have quite a pause in my post when posting "WWsin" under "Angelics". I guess I did have a bit of a misjudgment there. I didn't bother to count the CtH before posting that. Too bad. I was just thinking that the WWsin might win if they have like 20-30% higher CtH. But it turned out that they got 66.6% CtH if the barb has 10k defense.
Using angelics has NOTHING to do with the opponents chance to hit.
WhiteAlien
26-07-2006, 21:45
Talking in a part of wwsins the biggest problems is walking/tele exile smiters with 30K+ def or high defense FoH's not the barbs. But FoH build anyway is realy for brainless ppl.
I think for barbs those those builds also make problems, imo, dual Dooms can help a little.
I think i made a off topic.....
You mean you thought it was a better setup but now that you've been proven wrong you back off from your statements.
No. I never said it was better. It's just another option.
Blobs and mcm aren't the only ones with good barbs. You never even mention blobswannabe who has one of the best barbs on USWest. Some guy from Europe not knowing people means nothing. You insist on using ort armor against fohers, which is completely useless when you can kill them in 1 second with a telewhirl. If you don't think you are good, what are you doing telling people what to do?
Telewhirling a charging foher is a suicide if you do not stack LR. And without that 4Ort Armor, I do not have enough resistances. As I've already said, I've beaten each and every foher I've met with that setup, so what's the problem? As for blobswannabe, he has so far shown no proof of any kind of skills, all he does is act like blobs on these forums. I advice people to do this and that based on my _own experiences_. Of course I know you can kill a foher in 2-3 good triwhirls. However, if you do not nail them in the first few hits, without stack, you're very dead quickly. Whatever, fohers are too rare to be a consern. As for me knowing people, yes, I think that all the people that I know by name are _the best_ possible ones. Luis, Blobs, MCM. After them/with them come Rom, Ling and Morotsjos. Next case?
Using angelics has NOTHING to do with the opponents chance to hit.
You're correct. However, if you would've read the whole thing and paid some attention to what I've said so far. I said that I had no clue of the possible Chance to hit of a WWsin, so I was thinking, that if it would be 20-30% better than the barb's, the WWsin could possibly use teleport and clever whirls to win over the barbarian due to having more Chance to hit. But it turned out to be 15%ish, which is of no concern. Next case?
As for the 4orts armor:
I use it because
A) cannot afford 2x high LR rings
B) I barely play d2 anymore
C) getting a 35 IAS 180 LR BA would be a pain in the ***, needs 3x 30/15, 3x 30 jewels. Plus it does crap damage
D) Getting life/LR scs is a pain in the ***. Plus they're quite expensive.
Telewhirling a charging foher is a suicide if you do not stack LR. And without that 4Ort Armor, I do not have enough resistances. As I've already said, I've beaten each and every foher I've met with that setup, so what's the problem? As for blobswannabe, he has so far shown no proof of any kind of skills, all he does is act like blobs on these forums. I advice people to do this and that based on my _own experiences_. Of course I know you can kill a foher in 2-3 good triwhirls. However, if you do not nail them in the first few hits, without stack, you're very dead quickly. Whatever, fohers are too rare to be a consern. As for me knowing people, yes, I think that all the people that I know by name are _the best_ possible ones. Luis, Blobs, MCM. After them/with them come Rom, Ling and Morotsjos. Next case?
Suicide? All you do is namelock tele them and whirl. Game over. If people with skill actually made fohers, I'm sure they could get easily get kills on your barb. Just stay on screen using a doom.
How are people supposed to show proof of skill on a forum? Do we all need to make videos or something? Knowing people's names means nothing. Everyone thought fenris was a godly wind druid, but I saw him lose to tons of people on ladder, then he got destroyed when ladder reset and he tried dueling on NL.
You're correct. However, if you would've read the whole thing and paid some attention to what I've said so far. I said that I had no clue of the possible Chance to hit of a WWsin, so I was thinking, that if it would be 20-30% better than the barb's, the WWsin could possibly use teleport and clever whirls to win over the barbarian due to having more Chance to hit. But it turned out to be 15%ish, which is of no concern. Next case?
Even if they had 30% more chance to hit, highlords would still be better than angelics.
Suicide? All you do is namelock tele them and whirl. Game over. If people with skill actually made fohers, I'm sure they could get easily get kills on your barb. Just stay on screen using a doom.
What the hell is your problem? Yes, it is very suicidal to duel a foher when you got -50'ish Lightning resistance. And yes, when they charge away, they _can_ avoid your whirls. Not saying that they _will_. And they're too rare to be of consern.
How are people supposed to show proof of skill on a forum? Do we all need to make videos or something? Knowing people's names means nothing. Everyone thought fenris was a godly wind druid, but I saw him lose to tons of people on ladder, then he got destroyed when ladder reset and he tried dueling on NL.
Most people who play on Ladder are skilless, with a few exceptions. I never thought or would've thought anything about fenris.
Even if they had 30% more chance to hit, highlords would still be better than angelics.
Whatever. It was a simple misjudgment. End of discussion already please?
What the hell is your problem? Yes, it is very suicidal to duel a foher when you got -50'ish Lightning resistance. And yes, when they charge away, they _can_ avoid your whirls. Not saying that they _will_. And they're too rare to be of consern.
No, it's suicidal to duel when you have no chance of doing damage.
Most people who play on Ladder are skilless, with a few exceptions. I never thought or would've thought anything about fenris.
Most people who play on NL are skilless, with a few exceptions.
Whatever. It was a simple misjudgment. End of discussion already please?
Did that have to take two pages?
No, it's suicidal to duel when you have no chance of doing damage.
Who doesn't do damage?
Most people who play on NL are skilless, with a few exceptions.
Yet most of the "pro" people play on NL.
Did that have to take two pages?
No, it took _you_ two pages to realize that I had already said that it was a misjudgment.
Alright, let's calm down with the bickering my good sirs, or I'll have to close the thread.
-Hal
Alright, let's calm down with the bickering my good sirs, or I'll have to close the thread.
-Hal
Finally the Grand Master of all Existence has chosen that this topic has gone too far. I was rather expecting a straight-away lock than a simple post.
Result: 6.9k life, 13k AR, 48% FHR bp, 42% PDR, >150% light res stacked over 90% in Hell, life tap lasts for 1 second, 5k-5.6k/1k-4k ww dmg (65/49.3% Double Dmg, 25/50% OW), 400-1.6k guided dmg (68% Double Dmg, 25% OW)
Beat it like a mage (hammer/foh). 90% stacked light res makes foh = mush, guided makes smiter move to you, ww away makes smite = mush.
And still do this:
vs Necro
Use: 2/20/2 Barb Circlet w/ 79ed/16str from jewels, Enigma, Gore Riders, 9% OW +29str 10%fhr belt, Grief Zerk, Beast Zerk, Highlords, 10fcr/99ar/19str/81mana/10resall ring, 10fcr/100ar/20str/32life/27%fres ring, Dracs, prebuff with limb, bo.
What builds do these different setups beat. I was just wondering what setup is best for which chars. I can only possibly afford one of these gear setups so I want to get the gear that beats the most characters or at least most popular characters.
P.S. please dont get this thread closed its helpful to me since I have never made a BvC and since I can only afford one gear setup its very important I get it right the first time lol :grin:
Talking in a part of wwsins the biggest problems is walking/tele exile smiters with 30K+ def or high defense FoH's not the barbs. But FoH build anyway is realy for brainless ppl.
I think for barbs those those builds also make problems, imo, dual Dooms can help a little.
I think i made a off topic.....
for the foh part its no problem if u have stack
vs tele smiters i find enigma is more useful due to the fr/w allowing u to control ur WW better and get out of range faster.
A BvC csn beat just about anything but a godly BvB but even vs BvB u have a chance with Widowmaker.
Also only really a Bone nec and maybe hammer its more a 50/50 fight.
What builds do these different setups beat. I was just wondering what setup is best for which chars. I can only possibly afford one of these gear setups so I want to get the gear that beats the most characters or at least most popular characters.
Those setups are the _special_ setups versus necromancers and V/Ts, and will most likely fail versus most other classes. Just go with:
CoA 'BerBer'
Enigma
GriefZ
BeastZ
2x DoomZ's
2x Ravens
Triple or double resistance boots with FRW and +stats (lightning->fire->cold, in that order)
Dracul's with 15 str
Highlord's amulet
In stash at least:
2x high mana fcr rings
Arreat's
Demonlimb
However, more gear makes it easier of course.
P.S. please dont get this thread closed its helpful to me since I have never made a BvC and since I can only afford one gear setup its very important I get it right the first time lol :grin:
He will, if those guys keep up with their offensive style.
Those setups are the _special_ setups versus necromancers and V/Ts, and will most likely fail versus most other classes. Just go with:
CoA 'BerBer'
Enigma
GriefZ
BeastZ
2x DoomZ's
2x Ravens
Triple or double resistance boots with FRW and +stats (lightning->fire->cold, in that order)
Dracul's with 15 str
Highlord's amulet
In stash at least:
2x high mana fcr rings
Arreat's
Demonlimb
However, more gear makes it easier of course.
He will, if those guys keep up with their offensive style.
Whats v/t? What belt? Tgods or Arach im guessing... the more gear the less charms i can hold and i plan to be pub dueling so no time for town stopping.
Whats the arreats for?
Whats v/t? What belt? Tgods or Arach im guessing... the more gear the less charms i can hold and i plan to be pub dueling so no time for town stopping.
Arachnid's Mesh belt. V/T is a smite/foh hybrid. Put the gear in stash, not inventory.
Whats the arreats for?
For games where there are no melee, bowazons or windies.
so at most times i will have 20FCR is that enough for tele aside from necros? Just asking so i understand why its better than Tgods since from my understanding +skills is not the biggest deal with Barbs.
Yea arreats is better if im not getting phys dmg. Do you socket with ber anyways or since it will be used against casters maybe a 15 all jewel or 40ed jewel. Would a 5/5cold die make 2xDoom aura hurt more?
Thanks for all the help so far! I am building char more this weekend got greif zerk and highlords and one 244/20 raven and one 200/20 raven(hope to get better ar one soon) I got a 15ed 1368arch or 1303dusk nigma. Arachs and dracs are for sale all over but it may be hard getting the dooms/berserk(hard to get 5os zerks even harder to get 15ed) the boots sound really hard to get also. Id appreciate any tips!
so at most times i will have 20FCR is that enough for tele aside from necros? Just asking so i understand why its better than Tgods since from my understanding +skills is not the biggest deal with Barbs.
If you duel necros 1v1, then swap in those 2x fcr/mana rings. As for pubs, most pub necs are easy, and 20 fcr _can_ be enough.
Yea arreats is better if im not getting phys dmg. Do you socket with ber anyways or since it will be used against casters maybe a 15 all jewel or 40ed jewel. Would a 5/5cold die make 2xDoom aura hurt more?
2x Ber runes in CoA is a must. 15 allres jewels do no good to you, as you should already have enough resistances. As for 40ed jewels, not needed as much as the 16% DR from 2x Ber runes. As for 5/5 cold die facets, they would only give -x% to the resistances, which is _very_ useless, as the aura damage is pitiful. The auras are used to kill enemies that have 1 life left due to OW.
Thanks for all the help so far! I am building char more this weekend got greif zerk and highlords and one 244/20 raven and one 200/20 raven(hope to get better ar one soon) I got a 15ed 1368arch or 1303dusk nigma. Arachs and dracs are for sale all over but it may be hard getting the dooms/berserk(hard to get 5os zerks even harder to get 15ed) the boots sound really hard to get also. Id appreciate any tips!
You should just buy the Dooms, not the runes. The ED doesn't really matter, nor do any other stats. However, I myself prefer to look for a decent -cold resistance percentage, atm they give a total of exactly -100% on my Dooms.
Ohh and i forgot to ask is the beast werebear feature ever accually useful?
EDIT: on the above I meant socketing Arreats(?) not CoA(berber)...??
the boss
28-07-2006, 03:45
Chek - Arreats can be Ed/ias jewels or Resists jewe/ias, the ias part is for the widowmaker break point. Beast is only used for off hand weapon, I'd say bear is just to mess around with...they have bad fhr, you won't even last a second vs trappers, windies or hammerdins...even necro, bone prison and you're over.
Ce Olba - 65/49 base strength/dex I see...hmm I could rebuild my barb with this base stats for more flexible when gear change, I should only depend on torch/anni and enigma to hold everything for me anyways, not dex or strength charms... :D Ce Olba, hey how important is fhr on a BvC barb anyways...
Ce Olba - 65/49 base strength/dex I see...hmm I could rebuild my barb with this base stats for more flexible when gear change, I should only depend on torch/anni and enigma to hold everything for me anyways, not dex or strength charms... :D Ce Olba, hey how important is fhr on a BvC barb anyways...
To be more precise, it's 63/47 if you have +40 from anni and torch. These base stats allow pretty much all the needed gear changes.
FHR. Well, it's always nice to hit the 48% FHR breakpoint, as it helps versus Boners, Bowazons and FBers for example. And it only costs you 192 life, after Bo of course.
the boss
28-07-2006, 15:14
To be more precise, it's 63/47 if you have +40 from anni and torch. These base stats allow pretty much all the needed gear changes.
FHR. Well, it's always nice to hit the 48% FHR breakpoint, as it helps versus Boners, Bowazons and FBers for example. And it only costs you 192 life, after Bo of course.
Wait, lol one sec, is it 63/47 the amount you PUT in? or is the just with torch/anni? got kinda confused i think its how many points you put in strenght....30+63 = 93 base strength?
20+47 = 67 base dex?
sorry just clearing up for one more time
Wait, lol one sec, is it 63/47 the amount you PUT in? or is the just with torch/anni? got kinda confused i think its how many points you put in strenght....30+63 = 93 base strength?
20+47 = 67 base dex?
sorry just clearing up for one more time
It's not how _many_ you put, it's what you end up with base points.
Base stats should look like (without any gear) 63/47. You put 33 points into STR and 27 points into DEX. Got it now?
the boss
28-07-2006, 16:40
sorry just didn't get the calculation, yeah got it
Chek - Arreats can be Ed/ias jewels or Resists jewe/ias, the ias part is for the widowmaker break point. Beast is only used for off hand weapon, I'd say bear is just to mess around with...they have bad fhr, you won't even last a second vs trappers, windies or hammerdins...even necro, bone prison and you're over.
Ce Olba - 65/49 base strength/dex I see...hmm I could rebuild my barb with this base stats for more flexible when gear change, I should only depend on torch/anni and enigma to hold everything for me anyways, not dex or strength charms... :D Ce Olba, hey how important is fhr on a BvC barb anyways...
What do people buy eth arreats for then? I thought it was for BvC
you could maybe adjust those stats depending on the stats of you torch and anni?
I myself use less stats than this my dex only has like 5 or so points but i use the bb to fill in most gaps.
But the universal setup is good to follow if you don't have access to realm specific gear.
the boss
30-07-2006, 16:22
What do people buy eth arreats for then? I thought it was for BvC
Eth arreats is for bvb barbs or bva barbs...in my opinion
I personally don't like eth arreats due to the fact that you are forced to put only ONE choice socket in it...which is only zod...
With non-eth arreats, I have more choices with runes/jewels to put in.
5k-5.6k/1k-4k ww dmg (65/49.3% Double Dmg, 25/50% OW), 400-1.6k guided dmg (68% Double Dmg, 25% OW)
Ok wtf? I have 281ed beast with 40str and a 15ed Greif. How did McM hit 5.6k max. Is he adding the 2 ww numbers together? i max at approx 2500 on beast and approx 1150 on greif(I think this one lies cause of add dmg on greif).
If I add together thats around 3.6k fricken 2k lower than MCM! And I dont have widow yet but I am guessing his dmg is way huger with that also.
I am not using fort but even on his nigma setup he does 5.4k. Do +min dmg sc's raise max also somehow? I am confused. Did I missread this somehow...
Ohh I also got some conflicting information on using widowmaker with baba whats the bp? I should have 20ias from highlords 15ias from XX/15 jewel arreats. I was thinking about using a -15req/15ias jewel for the widowmaker as well but i wasent sure if it was worth it.
no such thing as a -req ias jewel.
no such thing as a -req ias jewel.
Kk wasent sure if didnt exist or if I had never seen one since I couldent afford. I guessed wrong.. plz answers to my other questions if anyone knows :rolleyes:
Kk wasent sure if didnt exist or if I had never seen one since I couldent afford. I guessed wrong.. plz answers to my other questions if anyone knows :rolleyes:
EDIT: I would still like to know the breakpoint in case a ed/15ias jewel in widowmaker is worth it.
EDIT: OMG the infamous hit reply and thought I hit edit may fire and brimstone hail upon me. :cry:
Ok wtf? I have 281ed beast with 40str and a 15ed Greif. How did McM hit 5.6k max. Is he adding the 2 ww numbers together? i max at approx 2500 on beast and approx 1150 on greif(I think this one lies cause of add dmg on greif).
The damage on the character screen can be ignored when talking about Grief, it doesn't show the +dmg. Also, MCM most likely has 33x 32020s, that adds about 400ish damage or so.
If I add together thats around 3.6k fricken 2k lower than MCM! And I dont have widow yet but I am guessing his dmg is way huger with that also.
Again, he has 33x 32020s, making his damage a lot bigger than ones without such charms.
I am not using fort but even on his nigma setup he does 5.4k. Do +min dmg sc's raise max also somehow? I am confused. Did I missread this somehow...
+min damage scs only add damage to minimum damage. You might've confused it with the ed/+min or ed/+max jewels, which are bugged.
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