View Full Version : Tri res boots on a BvC
I was wondering why tri res boots are so good on a BvC; I figured that the res can be made up by upgrading life SCs to res/lifers for the same price, FHR is moot since you'll need to hit that BP without the boots, and stats- you should be able to use gear without the stat bonuses right? I just wanted to make sure before I buy these boots: 30 FRW/13 str/12 dex/29 CR/24 LR/28 FR and a str fcr ring
I was wondering why tri res boots are so good on a BvC; I figured that the res can be made up by upgrading life SCs to res/lifers for the same price, FHR is moot since you'll need to hit that BP without the boots, and stats- you should be able to use gear without the stat bonuses right? I just wanted to make sure before I buy these boots: 30 FRW/13 str/12 dex/29 CR/24 LR/28 FR and a str fcr ring
Those boots seem decent, however, the resistances are pretty low, considering that 40 is perfect on non-duped boots IIRC.
As for the resistances, people prefer triple resistance stats boots for a few reasons:
a) stats
b) resistances
The resistances allows them to use more 32020s. Of course, if you _can_, goreriders + 20/5s are superior damagewise. The stats, some people use them to build their characters on, such as Luis did, IIRC mcm did. Myself I have 13 dexterity on my duped boots, but I didn't built it on them, so I couldn't care less. I really think you shouldn't build on the stats of the boots, as then you won't be able to use Goreriders in certain situations.
However, if you plan not to use Goreriders versus smiter and hammerdins, build on the stats. You could also get 8-10x20/5s, and Goreriders. This results in 40-50 all resistances, 10% ow, 15% deadly, 15% crushing blow.
You will have 11.7% effective increase in damage, while, with 32020s, losing 130 average damage if you would use 32020s instead. You damage should be about 6k average with GriefZ, so you will only lose 2.1% damage, while gaining 11.7, that's an increase of 9.6%'s.
Hint: Pay attention to the bolded text.
Hmm ok but my BvC is on sort of a budget, and can't afford 5/20s and 3/20/20s. Would it still be better to rebuild my barb around those boots? They should cost me around 7 sojs, and I can get decent res/lifers (4+/16+) for 1 soj each. Also should I build around the str too and get a fcr ring with str when I don't need those boots but do need fort/duress?
Hmm ok but my BvC is on sort of a budget, and can't afford 5/20s and 3/20/20s. Would it still be better to rebuild my barb around those boots? They should cost me around 7 sojs, and I can get decent res/lifers (4+/16+) for 1 soj each. Also should I build around the str too and get a fcr ring with str when I don't need those boots but do need fort/duress?
No you shouldn't. This doesn't allow for example Goreriders and Hsarus's. It will result in you using those boots versus hammerdins and smiters for example. However, myself I like to just use plain Enchant or dual angelics versus Hammerdins, just like morotsjos suggests. I mean, depending on Fortitude for wins a) cripples you b) is bad versus good people (telesmite, offensive hammerdins)
As for the boots, I think you could get them, and also put 4-6 of those res/lifers to compensate for the lower resistances. However, higher resistances mean more ar/life scs/gcs, means better CtH.
Hmm well I don't really see the point in using them if I'm not going to be using them for stats as well as res; do you mean be able to use axes + widow without boots?
Hmm well I don't really see the point in using them if I'm not going to be using them for stats as well as res; do you mean be able to use axes + widow without boots?
Such setups as:
Goreriders+Grief+Beast+TGods/STRbelt+Fortitude+CoA+Draculs
Goreriders+Grief+Beast+strbelt+Fortitude+Arreat's+ Dracs+Widowmaker
These 2 setups are crippled if you build on the stat boots, by losing 15% Deadly Strike and 10% Open Wounds. However, some people, like myself, like to play in pub games mostly, and in there you shouldn't switch your armor at all, as someone can jump you, so I try to play with Enigma only. Morotsjos (the best BvC on EU) even says that using Fortitude in these setups cripples you, as versus good telesmiters, you will end up being too slow without the FRW from Enigma, and versus good tele/desynch hammerdins, they will be too offensive for you to use Fortitude. I'm starting to believe in this, which would make both of the setups I listed useless. However, I still suggest that beginners and not-so-confident people would use these setups versus most people, as it helps them.
As for using both the boots and some resi/lifers, I meant that the outcome would match with higher boots, aka you would total at about 45-50 to all resistances. However, if you do not see poison or cold resistance necessary (which they rarely are), you could just use 2x 18-20/10-11s with Fire and Lightning resistances. This, with your current setup, would match as if you have 50+ to fire and lightning resistances, which is what you actually want.
However, overall, Goreriders + resi/lifers give more damage than 32020s as I pointed out, unless the boots have lots and lots of STR. Why? Because you already have about 760% off-weapon ED from skills and str, so the effect of STR is _way_ less than the effect of 10% DS.
Example, 390 base weapon damage, +19 str from boots vs 10% Deadly Strike, 760% off-weapon Ed, 34% Deadly Strike.
+19 str
390 * (1+7.6+0.19) * 1.4852 (double damage multiplier)=
3428.1 * 1.4852 =
5091.41412.
+10% deadly
390 * (1+7.6) * 1.5632 (double damage multiplier =
3354 * 1.5632 =
5242.9728
5242 - 5091 = 151 More damage
However, this damage add is _very_ small. But of course, so is the weapon's damage (it's the same as 34/343 GriefZ). The more damage the weapon deals, the more the difference gets. With a 34/400 GriefZ the difference is 173 damage. However, counted PvP penalty in, this is really small. With 23x 32020s and 10x 20/5s, the damage difference is -8, so the triple resistance boots do 8 more damage. However, this is literally equal to almost zero, as with PvP penalty it's 1.36 damage, and with 50 dr that's 0.68 damage, aka nothing.
Overall, I'd say triple resistance boots+32020s>goreriders+32020s.
However, the extra crushing blow and OW will turn the damages into Goreriders' side.
morotsjos
19-07-2006, 22:23
Hmm ok but my BvC is on sort of a budget, and can't afford 5/20s and 3/20/20s. Would it still be better to rebuild my barb around those boots? They should cost me around 7 sojs, and I can get decent res/lifers (4+/16+) for 1 soj each. Also should I build around the str too and get a fcr ring with str when I don't need those boots but do need fort/duress?
gores are better for barbs on budget/ladder. dont even consider those boots.
5 scs with 10-11 fireres and 5 with 10-11 lightres is a cheap way to simulate the best boots while still having superior damage. less flexibility though but you cant get everything.
gores are better for barbs on budget/ladder. dont even consider those boots.
5 scs with 10-11 fireres and 5 with 10-11 lightres is a cheap way to simulate the best boots while still having superior damage. less flexibility though but you cant get everything.
Excuse my curiosity, but what do you mean by "less flexibility"? It allows him to use any boots he wishes, such as Hsarus's or Goreriders. If you're talking about stats, it's pretty foolish to base a character on stats of boots, makes goreriders pretty pointless if you depend on the dexterity or STR to use say, your axes or Widowmaker.
However, I did state that goreriders + life/resi scs is also an option, and as I pointed out, it even ends up with more damage than with duped boots+32020s. It will be even more superior without 32020s. I guess I'm just used to having my duped boots.
Actually, this made me think a bit. I do not have 32020s, but yes, I do have duped boots, not the best ones on the realm (carrion nails), but yet not that bad ones either. I was thinking, should I use life/resi scs+goreriders or the duped boots and the 20 life scs I already got? Since I'm not exactly sure of the price of say 18-20/9-11s on EUSCNL, and my barb seems steady enough already.
I'm pretty lucky actually, I got the duped boots, but I also got a self-found pair of rares, 10frw/33fr/40lr/xxGF. However, I of course prefer the duped ones, as they got 34/49 fr/lr.
morotsjos
19-07-2006, 22:48
Excuse my curiosity, but what do you mean by "less flexibility"? It allows him to use any boots he wishes, such as Hsarus's or Goreriders. If you're talking about stats, it's pretty foolish to base a character on stats of boots, makes goreriders pretty pointless if you depend on the dexterity or STR to use say, your axes or Widowmaker.
However, I did state that goreriders + life/resi scs is also an option, and as I pointed out, it even ends up with more damage than with duped boots+32020s. It will be even more superior without 32020s. I guess I'm just used to having my duped boots.
Actually, this made me think a bit. I do not have 32020s, but yes, I do have duped boots, not the best ones on the realm (carrion nails), but yet not that bad ones either. I was thinking, should I use life/resi scs+goreriders or the duped boots and the 20 life scs I already got? Since I'm not exactly sure of the price of say 18-20/9-11s on EUSCNL, and my barb seems steady enough already.
I'm pretty lucky actually, I got the duped boots, but I also got a self-found pair of rares, 10frw/33fr/40lr/xxGF. However, I of course prefer the duped ones, as they got 34/49 fr/lr.
barbs who dont get res from charms do more damage when using gores in 1v1 (i.e. 95% of all duels). hence they are more flexible.
barbs who dont get res from charms do more damage when using gores in 1v1 (i.e. 95% of all duels). hence they are more flexible.
You're referring to how much gores boosts the +max damage from charms? So you're saying that if one has max/ar/lifers and use goreriders, they do more damage than ones that use life/resi scs and gores? This is totally true of course, but what about, what you were saying that budget barbarians should use goreriders instead of triple resistance boots? Does that make sense? IIRC, life/resi scs are _more_ expensive than max/ar/lifers, at least if we talk about life/allres.
Your post makes it seem as you would recommend to use goreriders over triple resistance boots in pubs?
plain Enchant or dual angelics versus Hammerdins,
Won't you run into serious mana issues with dual angelic?
Personally I use 1 angelic ring (+amu), Tal belt and Ravenfrost if I do ever need the AR. I can just about wield 'hel' widow-maker with BASE dexterity.
I'm starting to think that high AR are not really needed, because the only time a hammerdin will/should ever get hit is during charge (tele-hammer is ineffective), and during charge your defense is ZERO anyway.
morotsjos
19-07-2006, 23:04
You're referring to how much gores boosts the +max damage from charms? So you're saying that if one has max/ar/lifers and use goreriders, they do more damage than ones that use life/resi scs and gores? This is totally true of course, but what about, what you were saying that budget barbarians should use goreriders instead of triple resistance boots? Does that make sense? IIRC, life/resi scs are _more_ expensive than max/ar/lifers, at least if we talk about life/allres.
life/lightres scs and life/fireres scs are way cheaper than max/ar/lifers. period.
Why is fire res more important than cold res? I'd think that cold/light should be stacked more to negate conv/griffs/infinity and cold mastery
Also I'm not on a budget anymore since my wealth just about tripled and I have around 50 sojs in currency to spend now. What should I buy?
Why is fire res more important than cold res? I'd think that cold/light should be stacked more to negate conv/griffs/infinity and cold mastery
Also I'm not on a budget anymore since my wealth just about tripled and I have around 50 sojs in currency to spend now. What should I buy?
Fire resistance don't need a great deal of over-stacking, typically you'll need at most 40 above 75 (to ignore anya bug and facets) so you can easily carry them around.
Too much over-stacking is needed for cold sorceress, hence dual raven are usually preferred.
life/lightres scs and life/fireres scs are way cheaper than max/ar/lifers. period.
Yes, of course they are, but they are not that cheap, are they?
Clay bizzle
20-07-2006, 01:41
Won't you run into serious mana issues with dual angelic?
Personally I use 1 angelic ring (+amu), Tal belt and Ravenfrost if I do ever need the AR. I can just about wield 'hel' widow-maker with BASE dexterity.
I'm starting to think that high AR are not really needed, because the only time a hammerdin will/should ever get hit is during charge (tele-hammer is ineffective), and during charge your defense is ZERO anyway.
Well mana pots are normally pretty accepted in dueling so that could solve that. Base stats is kinda overrated if you are having to substitute a better belt with tals. AR is pretty darn important because I mean hitting a pally while he is tele-hammering is not exactly the only approach you want. I prefer running or teleporting right under him after a Leap then WW.
I play on ladder and Gore's + life/fr + life/lr is definitely cheaper and I find it's very suitable in pubs. Against the cold sorces slapping on Ravens makes up for not having a very high stacked cold res. I am somewhat budget orientated though. No COA either.
morotsjos
20-07-2006, 21:11
Why is fire res more important than cold res? I'd think that cold/light should be stacked more to negate conv/griffs/infinity and cold mastery
Also I'm not on a budget anymore since my wealth just about tripled and I have around 50 sojs in currency to spend now. What should I buy?
your cold res will always be at -100 unless you sacrifice everything. that's why you use dual ravens.
light should obviously be stacked a bit, i recommend 4-5 extra scs with 10-11 lightres. the 5x fireres and 5x lightres scs i mentioned was just to make up for the res lost by using gores.
if i had a barb in ladder i would probably use 9-10 scs with 11 lightres, 4-5 scs with 11 fireres, 4-5 with 17 mana and the remaining inventory with 30+ (or preferably 35+) ar scs. obviously four of them should have 5% fhr, rest as much life as possible. personally i cant think of any better all-around setup.
your cold res will always be at -100 unless you sacrifice everything. that's why you use dual ravens.
light should obviously be stacked a bit, i recommend 4-5 extra scs with 10-11 lightres. the 5x fireres and 5x lightres scs i mentioned was just to make up for the res lost by using gores.
if i had a barb in ladder i would probably use 9-10 scs with 11 lightres, 4-5 scs with 11 fireres, 4-5 with 17 mana and the remaining inventory with 30+ (or preferably 35+) ar scs. obviously four of them should have 5% fhr, rest as much life as possible. personally i cant think of any better all-around setup.
As for the non-ladder one, what would that be? 32020s? I actually was thinking that a certain balance between 32020s and 20/36s results in the same AR while leaving about 10 spots free for life/mana scs or life/resistance scs for stacking purposes. Of course it already takes in account 4x fhr scs.
From what you're saying it seems as if you would say that the prefix is more important than the "of vita" suffix? In the worst case that could result in _very_ low life, about 5200 with pure vitality and lvl 90. But this is the worst case scenario, aka zero life from charms.
morotsjos
20-07-2006, 22:21
As for the non-ladder one, what would that be? 32020s? I actually was thinking that a certain balance between 32020s and 20/36s results in the same AR while leaving about 10 spots free for life/mana scs or life/resistance scs for stacking purposes. Of course it already takes in account 4x fhr scs.
From what you're saying it seems as if you would say that the prefix is more important than the "of vita" suffix? In the worst case that could result in _very_ low life, about 5200 with pure vitality and lvl 90. But this is the worst case scenario, aka zero life from charms.
what is better, 11 res or 50 life? ^^
dunno if 36 ar is better than 3max/20ar. never bothered to do the calcs since i wont trade for 30 of those anyway.
what is better, 11 res or 50 life? ^^
Is that 50 life after or before Bo? Right now, I do not know, I already have a low life, 6110, and my resistances are 75/75/75/60, but most of them are not that stacked (fire 176, cold 186, light 194, poison 160)
dunno if 36 ar is better than 3max/20ar. never bothered to do the calcs since i wont trade for 30 of those anyway.
Well, it depends of what you want. 11x 20/36 and 12x 32020s ends up with 24 less AR than 33x 32020s, which is about 140 AR, but now you have 10 free spots to fill up with 20/17s or 20/11s. I would go with 5x 20/17s and 5x 20/5s. Results in about 700-800 mana with dual ravens, 500ish mana with dual angelics, 900-1000 mana with fcr rings. And what do you lose? 63 Maximum damage, which is about 75 average PvP damage, deadly strike taken into account. Isn't that worth it? This allows you, for example, to use 10x 20/11s to stack lightning resistances. If you already have 4x 5/11s, that makes it total 154 LR from charms. With 64 from nat res, 30 from torch+anni, 48 from boots, 35 from highlord's, 30 from arreat/CoA, you're at 326 LR. Add Fade from Treachery, now you got 386 LR.
386-250-25-25=86, so you got 86 LR, dual ravens, pub setup. Isn't that fine? Now add a TGod's and you're ready to make some fohers or V/ts cry.
life/lightres scs and life/fireres scs are way cheaper than max/ar/lifers. period.
where u talking about ladder or nl?
last time i checked a 20/11 light is worth 2 32020s nl and the light scs on ladder with life even ones with 10-11 res and say 18-20 life are still worth quite abit.
u wont run into huge mana issues if u use a few 20/17 scs
@ Ce Olba thats how my new charm setup is looking, i all ready have like 125% light res stack for 3 x fhr with 11-10 res 1 20/7 light and res 18-20/11-10.
As this setup will give good balance with dmg and mana etc.
morotsjos
21-07-2006, 13:49
where u talking about ladder or nl?
last time i checked a 20/11 light is worth 2 32020s nl and the light scs on ladder with life even ones with 10-11 res and say 18-20 life are still worth quite abit.
does it matter? obviously ladder/welfare. perfect charms are not needed and not even an option for budget-barbs. wasting boot-slot for some ****ty res is a terrible choice.
morotsjos
21-07-2006, 14:03
Is that 50 life after or before Bo? Right now, I do not know, I already have a low life, 6110, and my resistances are 75/75/75/60, but most of them are not that stacked (fire 176, cold 186, light 194, poison 160)
Well, it depends of what you want. 11x 20/36 and 12x 32020s ends up with 24 less AR than 33x 32020s, which is about 140 AR, but now you have 10 free spots to fill up with 20/17s or 20/11s. I would go with 5x 20/17s and 5x 20/5s. Results in about 700-800 mana with dual ravens, 500ish mana with dual angelics, 900-1000 mana with fcr rings. And what do you lose? 63 Maximum damage, which is about 75 average PvP damage, deadly strike taken into account. Isn't that worth it? This allows you, for example, to use 10x 20/11s to stack lightning resistances. If you already have 4x 5/11s, that makes it total 154 LR from charms. With 64 from nat res, 30 from torch+anni, 48 from boots, 35 from highlord's, 30 from arreat/CoA, you're at 326 LR. Add Fade from Treachery, now you got 386 LR.
386-250-25-25=86, so you got 86 LR, dual ravens, pub setup. Isn't that fine? Now add a TGod's and you're ready to make some fohers or V/ts cry.
20 life sc->50 after bo. assuming you need 11% res to get 75% that 11% res sc means 44% less damage taken. 50 life is nothing.
i've had optimal res/mana balance for a long *** time thx. i'm talking about whether or not 36 ar gives more average damage than 3max/20 ar. 20/5:s are still garbage and 75 damage is alot btw.
KICKZILLA
21-07-2006, 15:45
30 FRW/13 str/12 dex/29 CR/24 LR/28 FR and a str fcr ring
Those boots are insane... goddamn man, do you have any idea what they're worth? Think 100+ hrs. Trade for em NOW...don't wait, run.
Those boots are insane... goddamn man, do you have any idea what they're worth? Think 100+ hrs. Trade for em NOW...don't wait, run.
Lol they're dupes on WSCNL and I paid 10 sojs for a perm pair + a spider.
So is morotsjos saying that the boots aren't good for me? Because that's what I thought all along
KICKZILLA
21-07-2006, 17:44
lol I knew they were too good to be true. They're even better than the East dupes.
edit, for a bvc those are perfect... can't get any better than that. I wouldn't wear gores.
lol I knew they were too good to be true. They're even better than the East dupes.
edit, for a bvc those are perfect... can't get any better than that. I wouldn't wear gores.
No they're not perfect for a BvC. They lack almost 20 resistances, str and dex are both pretty useless on a BvC. frw//res/res/res ones are the best, with a random amount of dex or str.
Should I get the most popular boots on west then? 30 frw/20 fhr/18 str/35 FR/49 LR/22 PR I should be able to trade a perm version of these for a perm version of those
Should I get the most popular boots on west then? 30 frw/20 fhr/18 str/35 FR/49 LR/22 PR I should be able to trade a perm version of these for a perm version of those
Yes you should.
mainaman
21-07-2006, 20:38
i dont even see the use of res boots anymore, only thing against which resist need be stacked is v/t or foher, and this can be done withought using boots. cold sorc well i'm not sure its worth the sacrifice... in a gm duel definately 2 ravens is enough to deal with them..
i just dont see why 3 resist boots are to be used at any time instead of gores..
i dont even see the use of res boots anymore, only thing against which resist need be stacked is v/t or foher, and this can be done withought using boots. cold sorc well i'm not sure its worth the sacrifice... in a gm duel definately 2 ravens is enough to deal with them..
i just dont see why 3 resist boots are to be used at any time instead of gores..
Well, if you note the charm setup I posted, it allows you to totally ignore resistance boots, as it can use either 5x 20/5s or 5x 20/11s, whichever you want. That's 25 allres, and you can of course swap the 20/17s for 20/5s and that's 50 all resistances, making triple resistance boots useless versus anything but fohers and vts.
mainaman
21-07-2006, 20:47
Well, if you note the charm setup I posted, it allows you to totally ignore resistance boots, as it can use either 5x 20/5s or 5x 20/11s, whichever you want. That's 25 allres, and you can of course swap the 20/17s for 20/5s and that's 50 all resistances, making triple resistance boots useless versus anything but fohers and vts.
my set up is 3x20/11 lr one5/11 lr one 5/5 and thats about all
with tgod+forti+highlords+kiras no v/t can evr touch me with foh.
i definetely need to get some more lr to be able to deal with pure fohers.By the way whats the max - res a foher can achieve ? i hear its caped at -150 but not sure
my set up is 3x20/11 lr one5/11 lr one 5/5 and thats about all
with tgod+forti+highlords+kiras no v/t can evr touch me with foh.
i definetely need to get some more lr to be able to deal with pure fohers.By the way whats the max - res a foher can achieve ? i hear its caped at -150 but not sure
-150 from Conviction, -25% from foh scep, -25% from perf griffon, -20% from Jmod, -20% from facet armor. However, this weakens them. Only a few uses 20/20 shield or armor, most use foh scep and griffon. On EUSCNL, with BT, people use facet zaka and facet BT, resulting in -210%. However, -200% is what I consider a must to stack. That's 375% LR for 75% in Hell, 385% for 85%. As you see, my charm setup hits 386% without any gear changes. If you change CoA to a perfect Ort Kiras, you got 426%, which by far is enough for any foher.
So are you saying that tri res boots aren't useful on a BvC? Or only with enough res charms?
So are you saying that tri res boots aren't useful on a BvC? Or only with enough res charms?
They _are_ extremely useful for people who cannot afford life/resistance scs, I'm talking about 18-20life/10-11resistances. At least 5 of them. However, Goreriders and enough 20/5s can put triple resistance boots to shame. But what really counts is the complication. You will need multiple charms in your inventory (4x fhr scs, 5-10x 20/11s) if you go with gores and resistance/life scs.
Triple resistance boots are more traditional and most likely cheaper too. They also allow certain stat changes, and more AR.
Well i still find res boots usefull due to the nice high stack vs the V/T and foh and even blizz.
Also it allows me to still use the bow while wearing another helm, without being dependent on helm, due the dex on my boots
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