View Full Version : Vs. gg Smiter
Lawrencearm
18-07-2006, 10:21
Are there any ways to beat a amazingly rich smiter with 2ber'd coa and all? My friend has one and every duel game i enter with him, he never loses.
Is there any chars that stand a chance against gg smiters? Or are there any chars that own smiters?
Are there any ways to beat a amazingly rich smiter with 2ber'd coa and all? My friend has one and every duel game i enter with him, he never loses.
Is there any chars that stand a chance against gg smiters? Or are there any chars that own smiters?
i have a smiter on us west non ladder and from much dueling i can safely tell you that a good blizz sorc that teles constantly will take out a smiter no problem also ne decent hammerdin will own melee
the boss
18-07-2006, 14:40
Hammerdins..., because smiters usually stack resists...
Wind druid
Pnb BONE necro
Blizz sorc
Hammerdin.
These are the common ones that can take a smiter out...
most barbs, ww/trappers..
ww/trappers hmmm, with 1 pt in zeal u own any ww-sin, and with resists you dont have to worry about traps, that arent even maxed
ww/trappers hmmm, with 1 pt in zeal u own any ww-sin, and with resists you dont have to worry about traps, that arent even maxed
It takes a lot for any smiter to take down my trap/wwsin. I do get beaten by the very best ones, but then again, I'm also not packing 50% dr or knockback. If I were to switch out my circlet for a giant skull with 2x ber in it, I'd get up to 49% dr (I'm packing 33 or so now), and the knockback would ensure that they would just bounce off of me.
mainaman
18-07-2006, 17:10
just make a BvC and your friend willl have to think of other char to be able to beat you
morotsjos
18-07-2006, 17:29
ww/trappers hmmm, with 1 pt in zeal u own any ww-sin, and with resists you dont have to worry about traps, that arent even maxed
zealots cant touch wwsins sry.
hammerdins and necs eat smiters for breakfast.
My max block hydra sorc does surprisingly well against them. I keep tele'ing around casting hydras and spammin firebolts, and confuse the sh*t outta 'em.
Hotspurs are always a problem, but it can still be done w/ a little patience.
zealots cant touch wwsins sry.
hammerdins and necs eat smiters for breakfast.
Dual angelics + amulet + low def ww sin = easy
I still need to meet a ww sin that i cant touch...
not really i have more trouble with smiters than a zealer on my ww/sin and both of these chars more than likely will lose to me.
Also most willl lock u down with mb + Wof stoping ur movement foward to the assa while it tears u down with WW.
my smiter usually destroys ww sins i dont think ww sins are a good way to go
and as far as casters go 1 charge usually kills them
my smiter usually destroys ww sins i dont think ww sins are a good way to go
and as far as casters go 1 charge usually kills them
Smiters can be annoying for a trap/wwsin, but with ww and knockback, they can't get close enough to actually hit you. Zeal takes 33% longer to get that first hit than smite does, and smite is already pressing the edge of their range if you whirl-away, there isn't a hope in hell of a zealot catching me.
I can drop traps and mindblast to chip away at their health, force them into going offensive or backing off. If they back off, I wait with my traps, and fully expect them to try and desynch - the moment I see them coming toward me, and within a screen and a half, I'm already whirling randomly. If they absorb my traps, I find that incredibly pathetic and a testament to my build, and just kill them with whirlwind. More annoying, takes longer, but no less difficult, really.
If any of you are on Useast NL, and want to test your smiter/zealot against my trap/wwsin, let me know. I'm more than happy to get a little more practice in against anyone.
Zealots and smiters can't touch wwsins. The ones you're dueling don't know how to duel against zeal/smite.
chessvampire
19-07-2006, 00:57
as a smiter myself, the only chars that i frequently lose to in 1v1 are hammerdins, and better smiters.
HappyAssassin
19-07-2006, 01:02
Dual angelics + amulet + low def ww sin = easy
I still need to meet a ww sin that i cant touch...
If you're on US West Ladder i'll introduce you to 5. If you need angelics to hit a WWsin, remake your zealer. Actually hitting one has nothing to do with defense and everything to do with play style.
As for the question, smiters are very good against generally unskilled players, but it takes a very good smiter to compete with top duelers. WWsins, BvC, Bone Necro (prison is horrible :undecided: ), Hammerdin, Blizz Sorc, ES Sorcs (sometimes, depends on skill), all are good options. Of course, you could also make a better smiter, CoA doesnt necessarily make the best possible smiter.
@quietus careful with that knockback. It can be a very strong tool, but a good smiter can take you by suprise if you over rely on it. Also, Clegs and Bramble are a very effective option for KB also, not as much damage as Trangs, Bramble, Gskull, but you can use a better helmet than the skull and the slow really messes with them.
If you're on US West Ladder i'll introduce you to 5. If you need angelics to hit a WWsin, remake your zealer. Actually hitting one has nothing to do with defense and everything to do with play style.
As for the question, smiters are very good against generally unskilled players, but it takes a very good smiter to compete with top duelers. WWsins, BvC, Bone Necro (prison is horrible :undecided: ), Hammerdin, Blizz Sorc, ES Sorcs (sometimes, depends on skill), all are good options. Of course, you could also make a better smiter, CoA doesnt necessarily make the best possible smiter.
@quietus careful with that knockback. It can be a very strong tool, but a good smiter can take you by suprise if you over rely on it. Also, Clegs and Bramble are a very effective option for KB also, not as much damage as Trangs, Bramble, Gskull, but you can use a better helmet than the skull and the slow really messes with them.
I would vastly prefer to avoid using the slow, as I find it kind of cheap. Knockback is an annoyance, and can be overcome by the smiter if they know what they're doing, bringing this matchup down to pure skill, with a healthy heaping of luck (as any good duel is).
Besides that, I don't use bramble. I use enigma. I also rely on trang gloves for the fast cast breakpoint, though I could live without it if I needed to. The strength on the enigma, however, allows me to wear my Shadow Dancers, which in turn allow me to wear my claws. In short, no enigma = no boots = no claws.
As I said, for those of you who think ZOMG SIN CAN'T BEAT SMITERZ!!!!, if you're on East Nonladder, I'll answer your challenge. Beat me without stacking stupid amounts of lightning resist, +max, and absorb.. we'll see for ourselves whether or not a sin can beat a smiter.
DuffMacane
19-07-2006, 06:31
As I said, for those of you who think ZOMG SIN CAN'T BEAT SMITERZ!!!!, if you're on East Nonladder, I'll answer your challenge. Beat me without stacking stupid amounts of lightning resist, +max, and absorb.. we'll see for ourselves whether or not a sin can beat a smiter.
But then if we don't use resist/max/absorb us smiter are letting you have a chance and so letting you beat us.
clairetay
19-07-2006, 09:56
thats like asking a smiter not to use lifetap lolx
Lawrencearm
19-07-2006, 10:09
I beat him once with my bone nec. I had to be super defencive and cast bone spirits because he was using enigma againsy me. He beat me 3 times and i beat him once but i am proud lol.
He has a 39 400 greif that rich M Fer.
Any ways thanks guys!
Lawrencearm
19-07-2006, 10:14
Sorry for the double post but how would a hammrdin beat the smiter? Cast hammers and tele away ans hope that it hits? Because i don't think being offenceful would work.
And next question, what other kind of cheaper helms would be good for a good smiter against casters and other smiters and so on?
Thanks.
Sorry for the double post but how would a hammrdin beat the smiter? Cast hammers and tele away ans hope that it hits? Because i don't think being offenceful would work.
And next question, what other kind of cheaper helms would be good for a good smiter against casters and other smiters and so on?
Thanks.
charge hammer>most smiters
i charge and mix with the odd tele i never tele hammer thogh cuz some exepect this and u get greeted with a nice smite in ur face
HappyAssassin
19-07-2006, 13:42
Quietus, the idea of using Cleg/Bramble/Gskull and all that stuff is to beat them even when they use stack/sorb. If you have traps, and they dont sorb it, you dont need knockback or any of these items. Your regular nigma setup will murder them anyway, cause you are a trapper they cant charge dead. Telesmites w/o sorb vs a ww/trapper are suicide baring luck and a perfect chainlock (pretty rare). The occassional tap will win them a duel, but besides that, w/o sorb a nigma ww/trapper beats smiters very easily.
morotsjos
19-07-2006, 15:24
Dual angelics + amulet + low def ww sin = easy
I still need to meet a ww sin that i cant touch...
the fact that you use angelics vs 2k def chars makes your opinion worthless. but by all means feel free to elaborate on how you manage to connect with charge/zeal on a char that constantly pounds you with mind blast and whirls away as soon as you charge.
As I said, for those of you who think ZOMG SIN CAN'T BEAT SMITERZ!!!!, if you're on East Nonladder, I'll answer your challenge. Beat me without stacking stupid amounts of lightning resist, +max, and absorb.. we'll see for ourselves whether or not a sin can beat a smiter.
But then if we don't use resist/max/absorb us smiter are letting you have a chance and so letting you beat us.
But then if we don't use resist/max/absorb us smiter are letting you have a chance and so letting you beat us.
I think what quietus was stating was that as long as the smiter doesn't run 90 light res w/ tgods,wisp ( and heal off light traps), a WW/trapper will have a very good chance at whoopin smiter arse.
DarkMousy
19-07-2006, 21:34
Not much out there beats a good v/t or smiter. Tele-smite really messes up all but the absolute best bvcs, even then it's maybe 60/40 in the bvc's favour if he's really good. Bone necros and windies stand a decent chance, but the best character to beat them with would be a hammerdin, period. In a no rules (BM) duel, it's pretty much just an hdin that can win.
HappyAssassin
19-07-2006, 22:48
Telesmite is very much like the telestomp that Hammerdins and Druids use. It's dangerous, but if you know how to deal with it, telesmite is free hits. A good BvC or WWsin can deal with telesmite handily. Its not like the technique is that difficult. Besides, most Smiters arent set up for telesmites- they have an ugly slow FCR animation and you can see it coming. For example, a WWsin with 65 Fcr can generally tele out of the spot the smiter tried to tele to, and they will land in a trap lock, at which point they are in trouble. Also, in a no rules duel, a BvC will generally beat a smiter (WWsins cant, because poison can be negated). Why? Slow. A BvC can use Doom, Clegs, Arach, and possibly another piece of slow to have the smiter throwing 1 smite every 2 seconds. The V/T is much more dangerous, but also beatable for many classes. Most V/Ts get as confused by their char as their opponents.
Lastly, I'd take a Bone Nec vs a Smiter over a hammerdin. Bone Armor, Prison, Spirit Spam all make it difficult to get close. Even if you do, you'd better hope you life tap, since Spears hurt.
All of this is pretty meaningless ultimately, we can discuss strategy all day, but in practice nothing ever works out they way we imagine it, at least with a good opponent.
I think what quietus was stating was that as long as the smiter doesn't run 90 light res w/ tgods,wisp ( and heal off light traps), a WW/trapper will have a very good chance at whoopin smiter arse.
And what I'm stating is that a good WW/Trapper can woop smiter arse even if they do stack enough to heal off traps.
morotsjos
19-07-2006, 23:00
Telesmite is very much like the telestomp that Hammerdins and Druids use. It's dangerous, but if you know how to deal with it, telesmite is free hits. A good BvC or WWsin can deal with telesmite handily. Its not like the technique is that difficult. Besides, most Smiters arent set up for telesmites- they have an ugly slow FCR animation and you can see it coming. For example, a WWsin with 65 Fcr can generally tele out of the spot the smiter tried to tele to, and they will land in a trap lock, at which point they are in trouble. Also, in a no rules duel, a BvC will generally beat a smiter (WWsins cant, because poison can be negated). Why? Slow. A BvC can use Doom, Clegs, Arach, and possibly another piece of slow to have the smiter throwing 1 smite every 2 seconds. The V/T is much more dangerous, but also beatable for many classes. Most V/Ts get as confused by their char as their opponents.
Lastly, I'd take a Bone Nec vs a Smiter over a hammerdin. Bone Armor, Prison, Spirit Spam all make it difficult to get close. Even if you do, you'd better hope you life tap, since Spears hurt.
All of this is pretty meaningless ultimately, we can discuss strategy all day, but in practice nothing ever works out they way we imagine it, at least with a good opponent.
And what I'm stating is that a good WW/Trapper can woop smiter arse even if they do stack enough to heal off traps.
telesmite is actually way harder to avoid than you make it sound. hammers are nothing in comparision. telesmite vs ww is all about anticipation and timing. when both players anticipate well it leans more towards luck, which i hate.
it's even harder for wwsins btw, since they run so laughable slow. telesmiters with clegs+holy freeze ridicule nearly any ww-char.
HappyAssassin
19-07-2006, 23:08
The only run advantage a Barb has terms of speed is a few points in Increased Speed.
As for their slow, if you're both slowed the same amount, the duel pretty much evens out again, which leaves you were you began, ww vs smite. And WW > Smite.
it's even harder for wwsins btw, since they run so laughable slow. telesmiters with clegs+holy freeze ridicule nearly any ww-char.
I did say that WWsins dont cut it in BM vs a smiter, but why bother slowing the Sin down when you can just Deaths + Andys + Antidote their damage to nothing anyway? Even a 6k WWsin (no mobility though, because it needs bramble) wont do enough damage to overcome that.
DuffMacane
20-07-2006, 01:06
as for telesmiting if you tele where the barb is going so that you will be smiting when he's on you the smiter has the advantage. FCR doesn't matter too much. Biggest and maybe the only reason pub barbs lose against smiters = ignorance of the foolishness of wwing through a smiter.
I thought slow in pvp was capped at 50? or do the slow from holy freeze and clegraw/other items work separately? If they stack that's just gg for smiter 99% of the time I agree. That would be hugely overpowered also =_=;
For a smiter vs pure ww opponent it's really gg when the smiter taps, considering the smiter doesn't suck skillwise or gearwise. For me at least it has been.
I haven't met any sin who can beat me w/ a pureww. So I doubt a hybrid that has weaker ww than a pureww can beat me IF I fully negate the trap. Hybrids are harder to duel, but if I took the care to collect appropriate gears I'm confident that I can win. Too bad I'm too lazy to do so.
The only advantage a wwsin might pose versus a barb would be venom and the poison damage. Not sure how much that does though in real pvp situation though.
And most sins ignore the greatness of mb.
I'm a v/t btw so it might be different but I don't use foh against sins anyways.
hardnfast
20-07-2006, 01:59
telesmite is actually way harder to avoid than you make it sound. hammers are nothing in comparision. telesmite vs ww is all about anticipation and timing. when both players anticipate well it leans more towards luck, which i hate.
it's even harder for wwsins btw, since they run so laughable slow. telesmiters with clegs+holy freeze ridicule nearly any ww-char.
I was under the impression that using holy freeze against a ww barb was not a good idea as the barb stays in range for longer allowing for more hits?
Also I haven't met any decent telesmiters in uswest ladder pubs, the last one I met I beat with my BvB.
But then if we don't use resist/max/absorb us smiter are letting you have a chance and so letting you beat us.
That's also saying "I can't even have half a chance to beat your character until I manage to force you to not use half of it"
As I said before, if you're on USEast, I'm happy to line up a duel. If you have skill, it'll be fun. If you have skill and sorb till my traps heal, odds are you'll beat me. If you don't have skill and sorb, you'll have to rely on foh, which annoys me but can be beat, and if you don't have skill and don't sorb, you won't stand a chance. Care to prove which you are? I'd love to see what you think of my status after a few rounds.
Happy, you do have a good point - If a smiter's gotta reduce my char to half of what she is, I may as well reduce them to half of what they are. I'll definately have to put some thought into that. Might be worthwhile to keep cleg's and a gskull in my stash after all... Since I shouldn't really be teleing vs smiters much anyway.
TheBassman
20-07-2006, 02:49
zealots cant touch wwsins sry.
I disagree.
I've beaten several wwsins with my zealot, many times not even getting hit. I'm sure I'm going to hear a few "Then they were noobsins" or something of the sort. But I feel Zealot > Wwsins (not ww/trappers in case that is what you were referring to.)
:cool:
~LesC
Romper Stomper
20-07-2006, 05:59
wwsin > zealot. MB to death or eat ww away. Your choice.
BLA_KIKLE19
20-07-2006, 06:17
wwsin > zealot. MB to death or eat ww away. Your choice.
MB is annoying...so is smite...i'm not saying they are BM or anything its just...i feel like using smite takes like no skill (maybe it does...never played one) but i mean, you don't have to worry about AR cause it always hits...and it like knocksback or stuns (can't remember) idk i just don't duel smiters cause they will own me with my lack of life and they're lack of needing AR/skill...:rolleyes: imo smiters are probably one of the skill-less dueling classes...i think ww/trapsins take more skill (lol even if mb is annoying) cause you have to anticipate stuff and throw traps just right...so hats off to builds that actually need skill :laughing: !
-kyle
DuffMacane
20-07-2006, 12:45
That's also saying "I can't even have half a chance to beat your character until I manage to force you to not use half of it"
As I said before, if you're on USEast, I'm happy to line up a duel. If you have skill, it'll be fun. If you have skill and sorb till my traps heal, odds are you'll beat me. If you don't have skill and sorb, you'll have to rely on foh, which annoys me but can be beat, and if you don't have skill and don't sorb, you won't stand a chance. Care to prove which you are? I'd love to see what you think of my status after a few rounds.
Happy, you do have a good point - If a smiter's gotta reduce my char to half of what she is, I may as well reduce them to half of what they are. I'll definately have to put some thought into that. Might be worthwhile to keep cleg's and a gskull in my stash after all... Since I shouldn't really be teleing vs smiters much anyway.
que? well it's true that if I don't negate trap of a ww/trapper I will lose because traps eat my life away and the sin can just ww away from me and I can't smite them as they just run (or strategically move). You seem a little offended. Actually quite a lot offended because I said I'm confident I'll beat hybrids every time if I nullify their traps. It's only logical.
I've dueled every ww barb I've met so far and won over half the time w/ each of them (I'm not only talking about pub barbs, as I've dueled bnet forums barbs and this forum barbs). And Barbs beat sins in pure ww fight. If I nullify lightening, the hybrid sin's traps become useless. Thus the hybrid becomes a ww sin but weaker than a regular pure ww sin. So I should win all the time against a hybrid sin IF their traps can't damage me.
anything wrong w/ above? Of course you'll have to believe that I play well.
I admit I can't beat skilled hybrids at all if I don't stack/sorb/max. More since I can't use foh against them because of claw block and the long cast time. But if I do what I need to do I will win. 90% of the time. If someone wants to prove me wrong I'll be happy to duel them.
btw is there a cap on ias? There should be because if there wasn't ww would be the only melee solution.
unfortunately i'm on us west ladder.
DuffMacane
20-07-2006, 12:53
MB is annoying...so is smite...i'm not saying they are BM or anything its just...i feel like using smite takes like no skill (maybe it does...never played one) but i mean, you don't have to worry about AR cause it always hits...and it like knocksback or stuns (can't remember) idk i just don't duel smiters cause they will own me with my lack of life and they're lack of needing AR/skill...:rolleyes: imo smiters are probably one of the skill-less dueling classes...i think ww/trapsins take more skill (lol even if mb is annoying) cause you have to anticipate stuff and throw traps just right...so hats off to builds that actually need skill :laughing: !
-kyle
Smiting does take skill. AR has nothing to do w/ skill since it's gear based. Smiters just have an easier time than zealers or ww'ers on that department. But even so smiters don't always win against wws despite the advantage on ar. It's because ww has advantage that it always hits before smite does due to its attack during movement, while smite has to suffer a pause before it begins. If you don't anticipate where the ww is going to be, a smiter will never win.
Smiting involves skill on positioning. WW involves moving in the right direction.
And yes ww/trapsins take more skill because they have a lot of skills to use. Also because they use both their skill slots while paladins use only 1.
btw is there a cap on ias? There should be because if there wasn't ww would be the only melee solution.
Instead of a cap on IAS, they have certain breakpoints. After reaching the last breakpoint, any more IAS becomes useless. However, if you do not reach a breakpoint by go over the last one by far, the extra IAS is useless too. You will only get an increase at certain amounts. Just like FHR, FBR and FCR for examples.
DuffMacane
20-07-2006, 13:03
Instead of a cap on IAS, they have certain breakpoints. After reaching the last breakpoint, any more IAS becomes useless. However, if you do not reach a breakpoint by go over the last one by far, the extra IAS is useless too. You will only get an increase at certain amounts. Just like FHR, FBR and FCR for examples.
oooooops sry. I meant cap on slows target down. For example, does holy freeze slow stack w/ clegraw/astreons/claw golem so that it can slow target to 100% (which I highly doubt). I heard the cap was 50. Is this true does anyone know?
I was under the impression that using holy freeze against a ww barb was not a good idea as the barb stays in range for longer allowing for more hits?
The only thing that lets a barb beat tele smite is enough frw to whirl away out of range of smite after the pally teles on you. If they're slowed, smite will definitely hit. Even if the smiter gets hit by the barb; when they trade hits this way, the smiter wins.
oooooops sry. I meant cap on slows target down. For example, does holy freeze slow stack w/ clegraw/astreons/claw golem so that it can slow target to 100% (which I highly doubt). I heard the cap was 50. Is this true does anyone know?
Ask Orphan or RTB. If I remember correctly, RTB has posted about the slows target by x% multiple times.
morotsjos
20-07-2006, 20:59
The only run advantage a Barb has terms of speed is a few points in Increased Speed.
As for their slow, if you're both slowed the same amount, the duel pretty much evens out again, which leaves you were you began, ww vs smite. And WW > Smite.
I did say that WWsins dont cut it in BM vs a smiter, but why bother slowing the Sin down when you can just Deaths + Andys + Antidote their damage to nothing anyway? Even a 6k WWsin (no mobility though, because it needs bramble) wont do enough damage to overcome that.
increased speed makes a hell of a difference. the smiter actually benefits from both players being slowed since it's so easy to telesmite a slowed ww:er even with 20 fpa smite.
personally i dont consider slow "bm", but barb is much better anyway due to higher range, higher damage and better mobility.
morotsjos
20-07-2006, 21:01
I was under the impression that using holy freeze against a ww barb was not a good idea as the barb stays in range for longer allowing for more hits?
longer in range = dead barb.
HappyAssassin
21-07-2006, 00:56
:smiley: Duff, I'd be happy to duel you with my WW/Trapper, I'm US West Ladder too. We could try some duels /w sorb, some without, etc. to see the win spread. My sin is Nekisi in case we've met, I think I remember a smiter with Duff in the name.
DuffMacane
21-07-2006, 11:06
:smiley: Duff, I'd be happy to duel you with my WW/Trapper, I'm US West Ladder too. We could try some duels /w sorb, some without, etc. to see the win spread. My sin is Nekisi in case we've met, I think I remember a smiter with Duff in the name.
sure *DuffMacane
I've seen you like once. Thien is a friend of mine (vector-prime) and I think you know him or have dueled him at least.
BTW DuffMacane has lone since retired :cry: turns out I can have base str and still wear CoA (w/ 2 2 str charms, although I should use my remaining points I'm afraid to commit :P). So new guy is RoseMacane.
Also my new barb is SlashMacane if you ever see him. Not very good with him at all but it's fun so far :laugh:
HappyAssassin
21-07-2006, 13:06
*ollieg2
Good to hear you know thein, he plays sin pretty well. I'm not on much, RL gets in the way a lot between school, work and other hobbies, but I'll try to be on D2 this weekend.
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