wwsin vs ww barbs?

[MapleMeadows]

To date i'd tried making x3 ww sins

I end up makign it and deleting it cause I was un-happy with the outcome.
I never was able to beat a ww barb. ever

Maybe if the barb was wearing full ik or weak gear but if the barb had grief, fort, etc . . . i never have a chance.

How do I make the perfect ww sin? a ww sin that actually has a chance vs ww barbs.



and . . . does anyone know what the max dr is? i wanna put a lot of dr gear but whats the max dr you can have?

[HappyAssassin]

Barbarians are the absolute worst thing you can duel with a WWsin. Even the very best assassins have trouble with them. Pure Ghost players have go so far as to devise entire equipment changes to deal with Barbs. What you're doing is like playing a Windy and sweating losing to Trappers.

Lets examine this:

A BvB has more block, more damage, more life, MUCH more defense.
A BvC has more damage, MUCH more life, and are just as mobile as you.

Both of them outrange your weapons. In order to hurt a barb with a pure WWsin, you need to WW him, which means he can WW you, since it can't be interupted. You can use stunlock to slow them down and help you aim your whirlwind better than his, but it is a 100% uphill battle.

One option, which I like, is to use traps. I have a guide in the Assassin section on a WW/Trapper, which beats barbs quite often. Of course, if they put on 2 pieces of Sorb, you're back to square one.

You can also use Widowmaker and spam them with guided arrows while running all the time. This will kill many barbs, especially nigma-less ones. If they use a Widow, well, too bad, you arrows hurt a LOT more than theirs. Don't do this with a BvC unless you are very good, you'll get smacked.

You can sometimes out muscle a barb, but only if you have a near 4k life WWsin with lvl 45+ venom, Bramble, Angelics, full melee gear basically. This only works on the less good barbs, top barbs still have the advantage, and it is expensive.

Both Speederlander's and my guide discuss the Barb problem, but it's no reason to give up on your WWsin.

Max DR is 50. Good luck!

[jmsplat]

To beat a decent WW barb, you have to make your WWsin a hybrid, with traps and/or widow. There are videos of a hybrid WW/trap/kick/bow sin on youtube.com I believe, and she is killing a barb in one

[nickedoff]

I never was able to beat a ww barb. ever
Do what Wiz4d3pt does and bow him from a way off.
When he gets close (or when you're done barraging), switch to a shield and Death's Web/Fleshripper.

[Jerion]

You must also stunlock them when they come close.

[KaythonXE]

A BvB is a very easy duel provided he uses fort. All you do, is slap on widowmaker. And peg him with 4k poison damage arrows until he dies. You're faster, and if you can kite properly you'll never be hit. A BvA and BvC can be defeated but you need 15k or more ar, max dr, and you need to learn how to clip them with a ww right after their ww is over. Or nearling end. If they slap on a shield, it's a very hard match.

[Romper Stomper]

A BvA and BvC can be defeated but you need 15k or more ar, max dr, and you need to learn how to clip them with a ww right after their ww is over. Or nearling end. If they slap on a shield, it's a very hard match.

^^ More from our favourite Theory Crafter.

[DuffMacane]

I don't think you'd need much ar for bvcs who duel wield. Or any1 w/o shield for that matter.

btw pure wwsin should not win against a ww barb. ww barb is basically a bigger version of wwsin - more life, more damage. pure wwSin must take advantage of venom/ow if she wants to win imo. Since clawblock will make it hard for a barb to hit a sin I'd say 1hit for ow/venom then ww away until the two span out. rinse and repeat.

i haven't actually used a pure wwsin or wwbarb yet now, but had a wwsin back in the day.

[clairetay]

my ww/trap actually won against some really i would say suky pub ww barbs but if u say those godly ones.. man sorry i dont think u can ever win

[Romper Stomper]

I don't think you'd need much ar for bvcs who duel wield. Or any1 w/o shield for that matter.

btw pure wwsin should not win against a ww barb. ww barb is basically a bigger version of wwsin - more life, more damage. pure wwSin must take advantage of venom/ow if she wants to win imo. Since clawblock will make it hard for a barb to hit a sin I'd say 1hit for ow/venom then ww away until the two span out. rinse and repeat.

i haven't actually used a pure wwsin or wwbarb yet now, but had a wwsin back in the day.

PSST.. barbs have OW also. Usually more, in fact. And the effect is more pronounced on the lower life assassin.

My BVC has 12k def with enigma, 13k w/ fort, 15k w/ fort + frozen armour. You're going to need significant AR for that.
Put it this way: Assuming same level chars, if I have 15k AR vs your 2k def, that's an 88% cth. If you have 9k AR vs my 15k def, that's a 37.5% cth. That almost negates your weapon block advantage entirely... (Barb misses defending 42.6% of the attacks the ww sin makes, WW sin misses blocking/defending ~35.2% of the attacks a barb makes. This is when you worry about the barb having twice your life and more than twice your damage.)

A good ww sin would have to catch a good bvc w/ 0% poison res, no shout, in hell, and a 500ms ping, to have a remote chance of winning. This isn't terribly likely.

[DuffMacane]

The sin can win, but it depends on the claw block imo. Maybe if the cb was max (i think it's like 66%?), venom was incredibly high w/ bramble/trangs, and OW. Bramble has thorn also, which helps a bit.

I think if the sin hits and runs to fully span out OW and venom, she has chance. If CB does block every 2 out of 3 hits that is.

[HappyAssassin]

This only works if the Barb has no Tele, as it is very hard to keep the distance open if they do. Also, I've seen a WWsin go 1v1 with a barb using a lvl 50ish Venom setup, Guillaumes, Trangs, Bramble, Angelics the whole deal, and she still couldn't quite beat him. Took him to very low life often, mostly with open wounds, but couldnt get a kill. At the higher levels, WWsins just lose to barbs w/o widow or traps. With em its a very fair fight. Except BvBs who have no real chance against widow.

[order]

i wish i could use widow but i dont meet the dex req even heled. :(

for barbs (ghost builds):

Step #1
dont attack barb let him come to you. that is the first mistake u can do. lower his life to about 3/4 with traps. tele or ww int the opposite direction if he gets close or you think he will tele on you. make sure you use cloak of shadows as it will help take away some of the barbs defense and ar advantage over you.

Step #2
as the barb is getting frusterated with not hitting you because of your immense skill :).....suprise him after one of his ww's with a df/ tele ww to allow ow to take effect then tele away.

Step #3
repeat step 1 and 2 and u'll win (unless the barb is uber godly with gear, skill, and full life life, max, ar charms).

i find this mainly useful only against bvcs tho considering i cant hit bvb unless i use a fools claw.

[Ce Olba]

i wish i could use widow but i dont meet the dex req even heled. :(

for barbs (ghost builds):

Step #1
dont attack barb let him come to you. that is the first mistake u can do. lower his life to about 3/4 with traps. tele or ww int the opposite direction if he gets close or you think he will tele on you. make sure you use cloak of shadows as it will help take away some of the barbs defense and ar advantage over you.

Step #2
as the barb is getting frusterated with not hitting you because of your immense skill :).....suprise him after one of his ww's with a df/ tele ww to allow ow to take effect then tele away.

Step #3
repeat step 1 and 2 and u'll win (unless the barb is uber godly with gear, skill, and full life life, max, ar charms).

i find this mainly useful only against bvcs tho considering i cant hit bvb unless i use a fools claw.

This would only work on very stupid barbarians. Ever heard of Leap? Puts you into double hit recovery, preventing any actions for that time. That's when the barb will most likely teleww you to oblivion. Not a single decent barb allows frustration to control the match-up. As for CoS, I've found it only to be an annoyance, as it makes it impossible to telewhirl to the edges of the screen effectively, plus it can hide traps.

As for the barb being godly, no, that's not needed. Max/ar/lifers are _not_ needed, godly gear is _not_ needed, godly skills are _not_ needed. The heck of it, a half decent barb with some sense and decent short/triwhirls and decent teleporting will force you dead quickly.

However, I like to force the defensive crap assassins on the offense with Widowmaker. I rarely even bother to duel with most of the defensive trappers, as most of them just camp in their traps and/or start running around of them, without any sense of MB or stunlocking. The good assassins are offensive as hell, abusing the swirlies of MB, the light radius reducement of CoS and their own OW.

[HappyAssassin]

Sorry, false.

A good ghost wont have problems with leap, and you will never get them in a triwhirl. It's a bit more complicated than that. The real trick is to prevent the barb from controling the tempo of the duel, which means you must be offensive. If the barb is on your screen and not MB'd, you are in serious trouble.

To beat a very good ghost, sorry, but the barb needs to be good as well. Unless he sorbs.

Another BvC > all post. Yay. I hope this doesnt turn into another of these pointless threads, but if it does, this is the last I'll post on it. These strategy debates are pretty pointless, given nothing will come of them.

[Ce Olba]

Sorry, false.

A good ghost wont have problems with leap, and you will never get them in a triwhirl. It's a bit more complicated than that. The real trick is to prevent the barb from controling the tempo of the duel, which means you must be offensive. If the barb is on your screen and not MB'd, you are in serious trouble.

To beat a very good ghost, sorry, but the barb needs to be good as well. Unless he sorbs.

Another BvC > all post. Yay. I hope this doesnt turn into another of these pointless threads, but if it does, this is the last I'll post on it. These strategy debates are pretty pointless, given nothing will come of them.

The first sentence that guy wrote in his strategy was "don't attack the barb let him come to you", which means "play defensive". As you said, playing defensive is bad, that's what I'm trying to point out.

You see, his strategy assumes that the barbarian is stupid enough to a) get frustrated b) to play dumb and sit in traps.

[HappyAssassin]

:smiley:

Right ^

[SicHalo]

mb does not work so well vs barbs as leap is uniteruptable and gets u out of an mb lock, so is ww.

this is a tough duel

i mean if the dueler has no sorb u can win this, i.e no death gloves no antidote no tg, even then the person would have to be a bit crap to lose as a barb should still win without that layout.

With those items i mentioned the chances are the sin will lose a very high chance as well.

@ Order ur strategy relies on the barb user to be stupid so i dissagree with most if the comments

any fight thats uber defensive if he was any kida decent barb he would simply Ga u on the offensive with the Widowmaker bow.

WQot could work is casting lower resists and then taking on the barb with lower psn res but then chances are the barb will bring out the life tap wand.

[jmsplat]

WQot could work is casting lower resists and then taking on the barb with lower psn res but then chances are the barb will bring out the life tap wand.
Barbs shouldn't be using lifetap wands vs. sins

[De4dEyE]

Err, keep 75+ poison res, wear a tgods?

[theBizz]

Well i used to have both wwsin and high-end barb. The barb was liek killing machine cuz i worked A LOT on him. And the wwsin was cool also, but to be honest i saw much more better ones. ( well, thats maybe cuz it was my 1st wwsin :grin: )

So, i used to duel many wwsins, ww/trapsins, wwsins with widowmaker and etc. And i'll tell you what. If u can handle a good eq barb and will properly use him, you will NEVER be defeated by a wwsin. ( or at least 99,9% chance to beat any wwsin ) For example my barb had special stuffs to fight vs any char and podclass ( of course with different sucsess, but i was satisfied ) and vs weak-mid wwsins i just used botd/doom botd/beast, vs strong ones i took stormshield, made enchant for more AR, sometimes some max poison resi + reduce the time of psn, something called like it. And you know, i met only 1 wwsin who was a little trouble for me. She had LOTS of psn damage, was smart enough not to tank me, but w8 till i tele close to her and than attack. I could camp too, but i just wanted to finish it faster. And she had a lot of life. The result after 6 games was 6:0 my barb won, but it was hard i must admit. A few times my barb had less than 10% of his health. After i asked to show her stuff in town i understood where she took her life. All her shadow skillers were almost 40-42 life + perf bramble + perfect chaos + some kickass rare claw with + venom and much more quite rare stuff. My barb wasnt cheap also, but i can swear that those wwsin costed a lot to its owner.

So imo you should make wwsin for fun to duel other classes, or prepare to get some godly items to fight barbs. But imo wwsin is more for fun so if i were you i wouldnt spend much on a wwsin and just ignored good barbs.

[WhiteAlien]

Barbs are beatable, not the best of the best, but it can be done, even with pure wwsin.

With pure melee gear you can reach 3,6k life, +6k dmg, 20kAR with Fool's, 50%DR and 60% block. OW only 25%, but honestly to go for OW against barb is stupid, coz you will be long dead before OW will take any effect.

I have noticed that to beat enigma barbs is much easier than forti barbs. Also shield wielding barbs is just simply not possible to beat.

I would like to divide barbs in 3 classes:
1. Goldy gear skilled player
2. Goldy gear unskilled player
3. Ik barbs or crap gear.

3rd class you can beat almost always, just ww and mb and ww and mb ...

2nd class you can beat 50% of time, mostly those guys do long ww, or just dont know how to ww effectively, so you have the chance here by taking advantage of traps to stun and MB, also you must watch for the moment when he stops ww, so just MB him, dragon flight and ww and repeat. If guy wears Enigma then dont DF, coz for sure he will tele on your head after his ww, so you must do short ww when he teles, like this you will hit him very good. I have beaten many barbs this way.

1st is not possible simply, the guy who is skilled will do very fast short ww over your head and you are rosted.

[WhiteAlien]

Barbs shouldn't be using lifetap wands vs. sins

I think it is absolutelly pointless to you l-tap wands against sins as fade reduces curse duration by atleast 80%.

If you catch barb with wand in hand while you ww over, he is dead.

[HappyAssassin]

You can get more than 3.6 life and keep those damage and PDR numbers, that much I promise you.

[Arbedark]

You can get more than 3.6 life and keep those damage and PDR numbers, that much I promise you.

Getting above 4k is just such a pain in the rear end though. :rolleyes:

[Speederländer]

PSST.. barbs have OW also. Usually more, in fact. And the effect is more pronounced on the lower life assassin.

My BVC has 12k def with enigma, 13k w/ fort, 15k w/ fort + frozen armour. You're going to need significant AR for that.
Put it this way: Assuming same level chars, if I have 15k AR vs your 2k def, that's an 88% cth. If you have 9k AR vs my 15k def, that's a 37.5% cth. That almost negates your weapon block advantage entirely... (Barb misses defending 42.6% of the attacks the ww sin makes, WW sin misses blocking/defending ~35.2% of the attacks a barb makes. This is when you worry about the barb having twice your life and more than twice your damage.)

A good ww sin would have to catch a good bvc w/ 0% poison res, no shout, in hell, and a 500ms ping, to have a remote chance of winning. This isn't terribly likely.

No. The majority of BvC's aren't that hard for a well prepared ww sin at all. A VERY GOOD BvC can be difficult, but again, only if they specifically equip for the sin (lots of PLR and/or max psn res). BvCs don't block and their defense is never an issue. My sin sports just short of 30,000 AR. Your 15K defense is a non-issue. If the sin goes bramble, the damage returned from thorns can add up to just under, or in the range of, 1K for the duel. The sin should always have traps up and MB swirlies on the barb to mess with the times they try to run, try to tele, or the stretches in between whirls. The sin should always have cloak of shadows up to lower the barb defense a couple thousand and increase their own defense by maybe 1K or so. The sin should be triggering bleeding more often than the barb. When you see bleeding, whirl defensively (i.e. let the bleed finish and stay clear). The sin should NEVER break their whirls, to avoid getting knocked back and tele-whirled from leap.

A good BvA with full block is usually harder than an equally well equipped and played BvC, unless the BvA doesn't use enigma against you and you can widowmaker them from a screen away while they constantly run to catch you.

[Speederländer]

WQot could work is casting lower resists and then taking on the barb with lower psn res but then chances are the barb will bring out the life tap wand.
Lifetap would probably last about 1.5 seconds with my fade. Plus, I'd tele-whirl you when I saw the wand on switch or saw you casting something.

[HappyAssassin]

Well, you guys will get a chance to "debate" this in a bloody way soon enough, when ladder rolls.

[Speederländer]

Well, you guys will get a chance to "debate" this in a bloody way soon enough, when ladder rolls.
When is that?

[Neuroff]

You might be able to kill BvCs on ladder because they all suck, but on NL there's plenty of 3/20/20s and richer players.

[SicHalo]

Lifetap would probably last about 1.5 seconds with my fade. Plus, I'd tele-whirl you when I saw the wand on switch or saw you casting something.

i dont think u would see a wand on str bugged barb.

edit i seen assas use the IM wand on me so if a barb was to break out the lifetap wand u cant complain.

Also it is possible for WW/Sin to beat barbs, i have beaten a few barbs on my WW/trapper but they were never fights that were easy and i find it is more determined on how well the barb plays

[nickedoff]

i dont think u would see a wand on str bugged barb.
Wands don't have high str requirements, so his other equipment probably would provide enough str for it...negating the bug.

[morotsjos]

No. The majority of BvC's aren't that hard for a well prepared ww sin at all. A VERY GOOD BvC can be difficult, but again, only if they specifically equip for the sin (lots of PLR and/or max psn res). BvCs don't block and their defense is never an issue. My sin sports just short of 30,000 AR. Your 15K defense is a non-issue. If the sin goes bramble, the damage returned from thorns can add up to just under, or in the range of, 1K for the duel. The sin should always have traps up and MB swirlies on the barb to mess with the times they try to run, try to tele, or the stretches in between whirls. The sin should always have cloak of shadows up to lower the barb defense a couple thousand and increase their own defense by maybe 1K or so. The sin should be triggering bleeding more often than the barb. When you see bleeding, whirl defensively (i.e. let the bleed finish and stay clear). The sin should NEVER break their whirls, to avoid getting knocked back and tele-whirled from leap.

A good BvA with full block is usually harder than an equally well equipped and played BvC, unless the BvA doesn't use enigma against you and you can widowmaker them from a screen away while they constantly run to catch you.
comparing you and your sin with the average barb is pointless.

[Arbedark]

comparing you and your sin with the average barb is pointless.

I'm not trying to start anything, but isn't this one of the most hypocritical posts there has ever been on this forum?

EVERYONE compares godly BvC's like yourself, luis etc to the average dueler from any other class in an effort to increase the e-status of BvC's...

Now this isn't intended as a flame or a personal dig. I just find it rather silly...

[Imbecile]

I'm not trying to start anything, but isn't this one of the most hypocritical posts there has ever been on this forum?

EVERYONE compares godly BvC's like yourself, luis etc to the average dueler from any other class in an effort to increase the e-status of BvC's...

Now this isn't intended as a flame or a personal dig. I just find it rather silly...

I think you misunderstood his post. Morotsjos possibly meant that common pub barbs, cannot beat Speederlander due to the fact, that he is superior.

[morotsjos]

I'm not trying to start anything, but isn't this one of the most hypocritical posts there has ever been on this forum?

EVERYONE compares godly BvC's like yourself, luis etc to the average dueler from any other class in an effort to increase the e-status of BvC's...

Now this isn't intended as a flame or a personal dig. I just find it rather silly...
i dont and have never done. i couldn't care less about what others do.

[HappyAssassin]

morotsjos doesnt do that. Other people take care of it for him.

[morotsjos]

morotsjos doesnt do that. Other people take care of it for him.
please dont insinuate garbage like that. personally i wouldn't mind people shutting up about barbs for good, that way fewer people would know how to play/counter them which would be beneficial to me. get it?
you're obviously frustrated either because barbs get more attention than wwsins or simply because wwsins are weaker and slower. which is it?

[Ce Olba]

please dont insinuate garbage like that. personally i wouldn't mind people shutting up about barbs for good, that way fewer people would know how to play/counter them which would be beneficial to me. get it?
you're obviously frustrated either because barbs get more attention than wwsins or simply because wwsins are weaker and slower. which is it?

Also, it's a fact that 99% of all barbs in PvP are trash. That's why taking the average hammerdin and average barb won't be half-fair, as the barb will suck anyways.

morotsjos doesnt do that. Other people take care of it for him.

If you're referring to me, I'm really sorry for telling facts. I mostly say the names of morotsjos, mcm, luis, blobs when someone badmouths BvCs and takes the common pubbarb that doesn't even use Leap and has max Shout. For example, KaythonXE. Now he's even started to spam my inbox with stupid messages such as "ur ez" "bvcs suck lol ez".

[Arbedark]

Also, it's a fact that 99% of all barbs in PvP are trash. That's why taking the average hammerdin and average barb won't be half-fair, as the barb will suck anyways.



If you're referring to me, I'm really sorry for telling facts. I mostly say the names of morotsjos, mcm, luis, blobs when someone badmouths BvCs and takes the common pubbarb that doesn't even use Leap and has max Shout. For example, KaythonXE. Now he's even started to spam my inbox with stupid messages such as "ur ez" "bvcs suck lol ez".

And people take the common WW Sin to be a sit in your field trapper with chaos and fury...

Speeder can beat the common WW barb, morotsjos can beat the common WW sin...

Fair enough. Now next time lets not be hypocritical with this...as far as I know, no godly WW Sin has ever dueled one of the godly WW Barbs...

At least not with the recent changes that have been happening to WW sins...

Now yes, BvC's may be the most versatile character there is, and stand a chance at beating any class but BvB's...but I'd be willing to say that a WW Sin has an easier time vs most classes, wont struggle half as much against a good boner and can beat BvB's...

When you get down to it, a WW Sin only really has trouble vs a BvC or BvA...

[WhiteAlien]

Speeder can beat the common WW barb, morotsjos can beat the common WW sin...



Hmm... to make everything clear maybee Speeder could make duel vs morotsjos, considering that both are godly like this we could see which class build is better.


like this goldy barb vs godly sin.

[morotsjos]

And people take the common WW Sin to be a sit in your field trapper with chaos and fury...

Speeder can beat the common WW barb, morotsjos can beat the common WW sin...

Fair enough. Now next time lets not be hypocritical with this...as far as I know, no godly WW Sin has ever dueled one of the godly WW Barbs...

At least not with the recent changes that have been happening to WW sins...

Now yes, BvC's may be the most versatile character there is, and stand a chance at beating any class but BvB's...but I'd be willing to say that a WW Sin has an easier time vs most classes, wont struggle half as much against a good boner and can beat BvB's...

When you get down to it, a WW Sin only really has trouble vs a BvC or BvA...
you are wrong. there have been no recent changes to wwsins. i have dueled all the best hybrids and pure wwsins in europe. noone stands any chance whatsoever. bruce managed to kill me with barb bo+shout+sorc enchant and i still took around 3/4:th of his life. we all know that the same thing will happen on any other realm as soon as the cocky sins try dueling some real barbs.

sins do NOT have an easier time vs most classes. what authorizes you to make such claims? how much have you played barb and ghost?
fact is that sins are only better vs druids and certain sorcs. 125/86 necs with maxblock and some maxres ridicule sins. their slow teleport and movement, low range and ****ty damage makes them inferior to barbs in nearly all other matchups. i wont even mention that dueling more than one char at the time is utterly futile.

of course any wwsin in eunl is welcome to prove me wrong. get a better record than me vs the hammers/necs/vts i duel and i will never post here again. PM for info.

[morotsjos]

Hmm... to make everything clear maybee Speeder could make duel vs morotsjos, considering that both are godly like this we could see which class build is better.


like this goldy barb vs godly sin.
why? we all know that barb beats sins. i thought speeder retired but if/when he gets a char on west nl he can duel chris or mike as much as he wants.

[Arbedark]

I played a Ghost for over a year and I'm now doing more research, practice etc with other types of sins for your information.

As for recent changes I am merely talking about the recent popularization of ww sins, along with new setups being tested...

Things that make a Sin better than a Barb at caster killing...

7k Lightning Traps
Mind Blast
Shadow Master
Kicks
Effectively more or same life as Barb (due to WB)
Venom
Dragon Flight

As for multiple opponents making a WW Sin useless, thats just crap...

[HappyAssassin]

please dont insinuate garbage like that. personally i wouldn't mind people shutting up about barbs for good, that way fewer people would know how to play/counter them which would be beneficial to me. get it?
you're obviously frustrated either because barbs get more attention than wwsins or simply because wwsins are weaker and slower. which is it?

I wasn't trying to imply that you instruct or cause other people to tout BvCs. I was trying to say that while you (morotsjos) dont do it, other members of this forum do. Reading the wording of my post again, I see how you took it, and for my vaguness I'm sorry.

As for the second part, yes, I think barbs get a lot more attention than WWsins, and that this is due in large part to the fact that a BvC is percieved to be one of the top duelers such as yourself. In fact, the vast majority of BvCs are pretty bad, but if you read these forums for a while you will get the impression that all of them as of the same caliber as Blobs, luis, and other top players. This is due in part to people like Ce Olba (yep, naming names) who defend their favorite class quite often by mentioning its godly players. Basically, the learning curve for BvC is very steep, and they develop a bad rape because most of them suck. I have no doubt in the skills of the good ones, but it's not the monster class everyone makes it out to be.

As for BvC vs WWsin, it's just what Arbe said. Even so, barb is probobly the better class at the end of the day. Certainly it is tough for a WWsin to beat a well played BvC. So what? I don't believe for a second your claim that BvCs have an easier time against other classes. Maybe for the top 5 BvCs, but not in general, not by a long shot.

Also, WWsin is no worse vs multiple opponents than a Barb. As for "we know barb beats wwsin," the BvC players on this forum thrive on "we know we beat x." I see nothing wrong with a friendly duel to see if it's true.

There is a huge amount of ego being thrown around this post. I wish we could make it a little more civil.

[Speederländer]

Hmm... to make everything clear maybee Speeder could make duel vs morotsjos, considering that both are godly like this we could see which class build is better.


like this goldy barb vs godly sin.

I'll lose. Against the best barbs (who can use enigma) I should pretty much never win. This is a fact of nature. My assassin is not typical and so I can beat most barbs (and no, I don't use damaging traps, just stunning ones). But I have no illusions about the really good barbs. I should lose. In fact, if I know the barb is REALLY good, I won't go whirl at all, I'll equip widow with BoS, turn myself into a glass cannon, put up the shadow master for a lucky minion stack block, pile on open wounds and poison and hyper-defensively tele while I plink away. Against a BvC they won't have block so most GAs tend to hit if they lock them, though dealing with leap and their better cast rate takes a lot of practice. Against BvA they will not be nearly as good chasing as a BvC BUT they block your GAs, so if they are very good at desync whirls its a wash on difficulty (assuming both barb players are very good to begin with). Again though, I make no claims at the widow path being easy in any way whatsoever, it just takes you from 0% odds of whinning in whirl mode and boosts them to maybe 20% if you are damn good at tele and recovering from/avoiding leap effects and tele-whirls, and equipped top-notch across the board.

[Speederländer]

Also, we need to differentiate between good DUELERS and good CLASSES. The class advantages and disadvantages start to break down when the people playing them are very very good. Both BvC and WW sins are good classes though neither is easy to win against other GOOD duelers because once your opponent is a teleporting maniac with lots of real skill (or a quality life tapping vt, whatever, etc.), you need MORE skill than your opponent to kill them. This is why the people who play these classes well also tend to have egos, because the skill needed to make them effective (which is more than what it takes to make a bone nec effective, for example) means they cut through 99% of the duelers out there like butter (further boosting ego). But once you have the best vs. the best, the variables are completely different. A tiny 1 second lag spike can mean everything when you have a huge swarm of bone spirits right behind you, or a single wrong click resulting in a ww-locking mistake (which is still easy to make for anyone). That's one reason why the match ups against the "best bone nec" against the "best BvC" never resolve much of anything. It comes down to how you do against ALL CLASSES and ALL PLAYERS on average, not what you do in one game against one person in one set of duels.

[Ce Olba]

In fact, the vast majority of BvCs are pretty bad, but if you read these forums for a while you will get the impression that all of them as of the same caliber as Blobs, luis, and other top players. This is due in part to people like Ce Olba (yep, naming names) who defend their favorite class quite often by mentioning its godly players.

And why do you think I use Blobs, MCM, Morotsjos or Luis as example BvCs? Because that's the optimal it gets to. That's what a good BvC looks like. I'm not using those names because they're known, but because that's what a good BvC is.

As for defending BvCs, mostly versus stupid arguments, such as Kaython's topic about I think 5-3'ed a BvC. He placed an argument based on beating a BvC that Widowmaker is useless. He didn't even bother to duel Luis.

[Speederländer]

And why do you think I use Blobs, MCM, Morotsjos or Luis as example BvCs? Because that's the optimal it gets to. That's what a good BvC looks like. I'm not using those names because they're known, but because that's what a good BvC is.
Actually, you are listing the best of the best. The difference between a representative "good" BvC and those 3 is as big as between the "good" BvC and some average dueler. I.e. it's very big.

[Ce Olba]

Actually, you are listing the best of the best. The difference between a representative "good" BvC and those 3 is as big as between the "good" BvC and some average dueler. I.e. it's very big.

Well, isn't the purpose of PvP to find out who's the best? And if I name a BvC, to say "You want to become like MCM" for example, that's what it is.

If you want to become something, you could at least take example of MCM, Blobs, Luis, Morotsjos. They're people any BvC looks up to, something they want to become to, most likely.

I'm sorry for not knowing any "good" BvCs from other realms, except for Rom on West and Ling on East. However, not many know these people. At least not as many as the ones who know MCM, Blobs or Luis.

[morotsjos]

I played a Ghost for over a year and I'm now doing more research, practice etc with other types of sins for your information.

As for recent changes I am merely talking about the recent popularization of ww sins, along with new setups being tested...

Things that make a Sin better than a Barb at caster killing...

7k Lightning Traps
Mind Blast
Shadow Master
Kicks
Effectively more or same life as Barb (due to WB)
Venom
Dragon Flight

As for multiple opponents making a WW Sin useless, thats just crap...
and i assume that you have played barb for over a year as well right? mind sharing some of these "new setups/discoveries" btw lol?

traps are easily negated
leap can be just as good or better than mind blast depending on situation
kicks are inferior to ww
wb is ridiculously slow
lower life also means more hit-recovery-prone
venom is easily negated
dragon flight and shadow master have their merits, i'll give you that

we both know that you cant lock more than one opponent effectively. that coupled with pathetic damage means that sins are far inferior to barbs vs multiple opponents. furthermore; barbs run faster, teleport faster, have greater range and most importantly do far far more damage. they also do better vs a wider array of classes without switching gear (i.e. pubs).

i dont deny that wwsins are great in the right hands. in my eyes they are still inferior to barbs in all important aspects, and that's what matters to me. less is more.

[pedu]

It was Luis that didnt bother to duel kaython. Just saying it before someone with a less nice attitude says it. :thumbsup:

[Ce Olba]

It was Luis that didnt bother to duel kaython. Just saying it before someone with a less nice attitude says it. :thumbsup:

I know that very well. But instead of politely asking, Kaython started bull****ting. That of course already says that he's not worth the time.

[morotsjos]

I wasn't trying to imply that you instruct or cause other people to tout BvCs. I was trying to say that while you (morotsjos) dont do it, other members of this forum do. Reading the wording of my post again, I see how you took it, and for my vaguness I'm sorry.

As for the second part, yes, I think barbs get a lot more attention than WWsins, and that this is due in large part to the fact that a BvC is percieved to be one of the top duelers such as yourself. In fact, the vast majority of BvCs are pretty bad, but if you read these forums for a while you will get the impression that all of them as of the same caliber as Blobs, luis, and other top players. This is due in part to people like Ce Olba (yep, naming names) who defend their favorite class quite often by mentioning its godly players. Basically, the learning curve for BvC is very steep, and they develop a bad rape because most of them suck. I have no doubt in the skills of the good ones, but it's not the monster class everyone makes it out to be.

As for BvC vs WWsin, it's just what Arbe said. Even so, barb is probobly the better class at the end of the day. Certainly it is tough for a WWsin to beat a well played BvC. So what? I don't believe for a second your claim that BvCs have an easier time against other classes. Maybe for the top 5 BvCs, but not in general, not by a long shot.

Also, WWsin is no worse vs multiple opponents than a Barb. As for "we know barb beats wwsin," the BvC players on this forum thrive on "we know we beat x." I see nothing wrong with a friendly duel to see if it's true.

There is a huge amount of ego being thrown around this post. I wish we could make it a little more civil.
these forums have always been problematic. a year or so ago we had 100 barb-hating ignorants jumping blobs when he posted his awesome guide =)

imo sins have a steeper learning curve than barbs, and that is why i dont think that wwsins have much of an advantage except vs druids/some sorcs. barbs are easier to use vs some other chars since you basically only have to whirl.

i dont theorycraft. see my previous post. i am sure that mcm will duel any sin on west nl who think they stand a chance.

and no, wwsins are nowhere near as good as barbs in 1v2+. leap+high damage >>> mind blast+low damage.

[Arbedark]

Morotsjos, I didn't intende my post to be in any way offensive, so I do apologise right off the bat if any of them seem that way. I'm just getting slightly sick of people pimping barbs using godly players as the example, making it seem like every barb is like that.

I will concede that a Godly Barb will easily negate and decimate a godly WW sin.

And yes, I have played with a WW Barb for around one year, and I did prefer the WW sin by a vast amount.

Shadow Master gives minion stacking, which is one thing that a BvC GENERALLY lacks, and a hugh advantage. They also frequently cast MB for you, which is also a huge advantage.

To negate traps you need gear sacrifices. Now I know that these generally wont be much sacrifices, but it is still a little, and the traps still allow stunning and locking.

Mind Blast can be just as good of better than Leap depending upon the situation as well...

Kicks are better than WW vs some casters. Speeder can explain this better than I can.

WB IS slow, I will grant you that. But it takes a 4k Life Assa (a good one), up to 6.4k effective life with 0 block. Same as a good BvC if I understand correctly...

Yes, it is easier to hit recovery an Assa which is disadvantageous, but with traps out (like you should) stunning, it allows an easier escape from hit recovery lock.

Venom is easily negated, IF you have the right gear. Which once again means sacrifices. These all add up...

Locking multiple opponents up effectively is nigh on impossible, agreed. But the auto-targetting feature of LS comes in very handy vs multiple opponents as it can delay opponents and herd them where you want.

Barbs tele at the same speed (11 frames), with pub setup on from what I understand. Yes, they can achieve more, but in a pub setup they do achieve the same :smiley:

i dont deny that wwsins are great in the right hands. in my eyes they are still inferior to barbs in all important aspects, and that's what matters to me. less is more.

And I feel the same Vice-Versa. I have immense respect for great barb players, but I personally feel that I can achieve much more with an Assa.

Also referring to your setup comment. I am merely talking about the fact that Old WW Sins used to use Bramble etc.

Now we have it as a given that Eni is better. While some people prefer CoA / Caster ammy, while others prefer Circlet / Mara's. Among certain groups there is a lot of testing going into these different setups and weighing up the pros and cons.

Yes us WW Sins are Learning from their big brothers the BvC's.

Then there are the differing skill setups. Some prefer damaging traps, some prefer high OW etc.

People are experimenting between Fury and a Fools claw.

Anyway, final word. We can agree to differ on this matter. We each prefer a different WW class, this is probably just because of the way we play. And I would never try and duel the people you duel. I flat out KNOW I don't have enough skill for that. But yes, I am more skilled and find my WW Sin Easier to use than any WW Barb, and I will continue to defend my little sin.

[Ce Olba]

Morotsjos, I didn't intende my post to be in any way offensive, so I do apologise right off the bat if any of them seem that way. I'm just getting slightly sick of people pimping barbs using godly players as the example, making it seem like every barb is like that.

If you're in any distant way referring to me, you're just about 99.9% incorrect here. I keep saying how 99% of all barbs are trash. I keep saying how 95% of all PvP'ers are trash. Why? Because that's how it is. I use the names such as Morotsjos to refer to a barb because that's what a good barb looks like. There are no "good" barbs, there are only bad ones and godly ones. That's too bad, since I then have to refer to the godly ones and make such conflicts as this one.

I've never, ever said that every BvC is like morotsjos or mcm or blobs or Luis. I've said that's what a BvC player wants to become. For example, do you not look up to Speederländer for his godly knowledge and skills? I think you do. However, you also referred to Speederländer's name when you were in a pinch.

Stupid people act like every BvC is like morotsjos or mcm or luis or blobs. I'm not one of those. If you understand my posts that way, look again. I've said countless times that most barbs have no idea of what they're doing.

[Speederländer]

Just to add:

Having ww sins fight BvCs to see who is the best 1v1 dueler is pointless. We all know how it should turn out. What matters is ww-sin vs. everyone else and BvC vs. everyone else (assuming in both cases "everyone else" is referring to good duelers). Who wins more consistently against a mix of tricked out bone necs, hammer pallys, life tapping smiters, quality trappers, recasting windies, etc. The ww-sin gets a negative going into the survey because they will have issues with the best barbs, but BvCs are only one class and easily made up by outscoring against windies, for example.

Additionally, how does a BvC do against a BvB or a BvA? In theory they should lose, assuming equal skill and equipment. So, while WW-sins are the bottom of the whirl vs. whirl chain, BvC is NOT at the top of that chain.

[Romper Stomper]

Strangely enough I'm still yet to die to BVB.

[Arbedark]

Strangely enough I'm still yet to die to BVB.

When quoted by a normal person...

ZOMG MY BvC HASNT DIED TO A BVB! EVAH! BvC>>>>>>>>>> BVB!!!

When quoted by a walking BvC advertisement..

[SicHalo]

i like both of these classes that why i built one of each, but barb will always be a top choice for most due to the fact it is better adapted to fight multiple opposition.

Comparing both on a caster lvl, a good WWsin may tip the scales for me due to usefull techniques like mb, traps etc and certain oponments like windies fall easy to wwsin and trappers.

[Romper Stomper]

When quoted by a walking BvC advertisement..

...........huh?

[Arbedark]

...........huh?

Nevermind...

[chek]

Sorry for posting in an old thread. I usually read most MCM's and Moro's posts for tips :grin:

I consider myself a crappy lvl 82 BvC. I have beaten every wwsin I have ran into. I assume this is cause they are all pub trash like myself. I would appreciate an arsekicking on US-West Ladder if anyone is playing tonight cause I just wanna see a good wwsin. You can use hacked items or whatever you wanna do and be lvl 95+ or watever but pls no crazy hacks that make my screen turn black or mb from 50 screens away.

Thanks
*chekm8

[Ce Olba]

Sorry for posting in an old thread. I usually read most MCM's and Moro's posts for tips :grin:

I consider myself a crappy lvl 82 BvC. I have beaten every wwsin I have ran into. I assume this is cause they are all pub trash like myself. I would appreciate an arsekicking on US-West Ladder if anyone is playing tonight cause I just wanna see a good wwsin. You can use hacked items or whatever you wanna do and be lvl 95+ or watever but pls no crazy hacks that make my screen turn black or mb from 50 screens away.

Thanks
*chekm8

A tip, you should level to at least lvl 90. For more information, look at all the links here:http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=4749256&postcount=7

Not trying to force it on you, just saying that if you want to learn, you should read all the links and the post itself.

[chek]

A tip, you should level to at least lvl 90. For more information, look at all the links here:http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=4749256&postcount=7

Not trying to force it on you, just saying that if you want to learn, you should read all the links and the post itself.

I dont need a guide and like I said I read almost all MCM's posts which may have lead you to the fact I have probably read most of your posts and all the guides you just posted already. I didnt not say I want to improve or insinuate that I am bad as a BvC because of skill(obviously though I am less skillfull then blobs, mcm, ect) or knowledge.

I am crappy because:

a) im lvl 82 / lack of effort
b) lack enough gear for versatility
c) lack enough 3/20/20(or close) sc's about 7 right now
d) my fricken wirless mouse and keyboard jack me up sometimes

Feel free to list e, f, g.. on and on as I have set you up.

All I wanted is to get pummeled by a wwsin thats not using hax that hinder my ability to fight. I simply have not ran into any that are good. I have been beaten by some other more popular classes. I am guessing the wwsin would just need to be average in ability to beat me but I am not sure.

anyways thanks if anyone could help..

[Ce Olba]

I dont need a guide and like I said I read almost all MCM's posts which may have lead you to the fact I have probably read most of your posts and all the guides you just posted already. I didnt not say I want to improve or insinuate that I am bad as a BvC because of skill(obviously though I am less skillfull then blobs, mcm, ect) or knowledge.

I can never be sure of the fact that one automatically reads my posts when they also read mcm's and blobs'. As I'm not as widely known nor as good.

a) im lvl 82 / lack of effort

I already told you that you should level up.

b) lack enough gear for versatility

You can beat WWsins with the pubsetup.

c) lack enough 3/20/20(or close) sc's about 7 right now

My BvC has only 3x ar/life GCs (126,128 and 130 AR, 36, 35 and 30 life IIRC), 4x fhr scs, rest 20 life scs with some minor mods (such as 20/33 life/ar self-found (by my friend) and other less cool charms) and I do just fine. The only "needed" improvement I can think of would be some life scs or GCs with mana so that I could use trangs + pubsetup versus everything, as I would have 700ish mana which is enough versus anything and 40 fcr and high AR.

d) my fricken wirless mouse and keyboard jack me up sometimes

I also use a wireless desktop, Logitech MX 3000 Laser. I got killed the few first times when dueling with it due to the keyboard having slower reaction time than the keyboard I used to have, which caused me to whirl instead of teleport and to teleport instead of Leap. However now I've gotten used to it.

[quiote]All I wanted is to get pummeled by a wwsin thats not using hax that hinder my ability to fight. I simply have not ran into any that are good. I have been beaten by some other more popular classes. I am guessing the wwsin would just need to be average in ability to beat me but I am not sure. [/quote]

So in easier English you're looking for a WWsin to duel with that doesn't use mods or hacks that's about your skill-level because you've not met any good WWsins? That's a fine goal there. It will be helpful once you meet some tougher WWsins. However, to truly get to know them, you want to play one of them. I used to play a welfare PvP WWsin myself, so I know decently well about their weaknesses and the way they will play. However, my WWsin was a NM dueler (lvl 76) and it was on Ladder so a lot of things are different than they were then (there was no Grief yet then for example). I've also played a welfare smiter (Enigma, CoA 'UmUm', GriefPB, Zaka, life GCs/LCs/SCs, no torch or anni) that was accused of hacking or auto-aiming multiple times (due to telesmiting people and when Grief was new people were like "wtf?" when they died to a smiter)

I'm really happy that on NL there are not as many people accusing me of auto-aiming, but to compensate for that, there's a ton of people who accuse me of "bm" and call me names when I beat them up thoroughly. I'm not exactly the nicest person in pubs (I do not bother to say go, and sometimes I even use shrines if the opponent is over defensive or the duel is boring), however I always kill town guarders, NKers and town hoppers, because they annoy the other players and that also lowers my kill count.

[GalenDoUrden]

Just to let you know your screen turning black is not actually a hack, it's the cloak of shadows skill. As for a decent wwsin, you may want to post in the assassin section as I believe their are a few wwsin/hybrids that would duel you on west-ladder. I believe Order plays on west ladder.

[order]

there are hacks that do turn your screen black and flash. i havent seen any used in about 2 years tho. im pretty sure your just running into a sin who uses cloak to their advantage. sins can hit with namelock from very far away as well. i suggest testing the distance and you'll see that about 3 screens away then wont be able to hit you. as for duelers on west ladder i play on nl. happyassasin was the main guy on west ladder. from what i understand his gear was hacked recently tho. when ladder drops i will be glad to duel against your bvc.

[chek]

I can never be sure of the fact that one automatically reads my posts when they also read mcm's and blobs'. As I'm not as widely known nor as good.

You are probably much more well known to newer players around this forum since you post alot:grin:

I already told you that you should level up.

Correct and then I listed it as one of my deficiencies solidifying the fact that I agreed with you.

You can beat WWsins with the pubsetup.

Again like I said I have beat all wwsins that I have come across. I dont wear CoA for my pub setup though. I find widow really handy and a 40/15 jewel in arreats helps the ias and damage. I could be convinced either way but I need to experiment for myself more.

The only "needed" improvement I can think of would be some life scs or GCs with mana

Yea I do have 3 gc's with high AR/life but my life is way low(5k). I should just buy 20life sc's but I really wanna get 3/20/20's(or close) to use. Sometimes I can be anal about getting the best gear or nothing at all and it hinders me.


I also use a wireless desktop, Logitech MX 3000 Laser. I got killed the few first times when dueling with it due to the keyboard having slower reaction time than the keyboard I used to have, which caused me to whirl instead of teleport and to teleport instead of Leap. However now I've gotten used to it.

Dood thats godly! Sometimes the mouse or keyboard will miss a click/key so my ww dosent trigger and i do a short tele or or it still thinks i am holding the mouse down and do a second ww in same direction ugg it can drive me nuts when its gets on the frits. I hate cords but might have to go buy a razor mouse sometime.

So in easier English you're looking for a WWsin to duel with that doesn't use mods or hacks that's about your skill-level because you've not met any good WWsins

on US-West Ladder yes; Perfect

town guarders, NKers and town hoppers, because they annoy the other players and that also lowers my kill count.

Yes dont just kill them nk over and over and then say CRY more pls then NK again.

GalenDourden: Hmmm are the flashes able to last up to 5 seconds even when your in town? yea I should try posting there thanks

[Ce Olba]

You are probably much more well known to newer players around this forum since you post alot:grin:

Well, I have gotten about 1800 posts in the last 5 months (I was at exactly 365 when I had been here for a year, that was 4.5.2006 IIRC).

Again like I said I have beat all wwsins that I have come across. I dont wear CoA for my pub setup though. I find widow really handy and a 40/15 jewel in arreats helps the ias and damage. I could be convinced either way but I need to experiment for myself more.

Tell me how can I convince you and I will.

Yea I do have 3 gc's with high AR/life but my life is way low(5k). I should just buy 20life sc's but I really wanna get 3/20/20's(or close) to use. Sometimes I can be anal about getting the best gear or nothing at all and it hinders me.

Being a perfectionist in drawing art when you cannot really draw well is the same thing. Both are bad for you. However, you can do whatever you want. I actually plan to start playing on Ladder at some time and gather lots of Sojs and make/buy a better GriefZ and save up more sojs to get myself better charms (First I will get a 20 barb torch, then something like 132/40 ar/life GCs, after that 20life/15ish mana SCs)


Dood thats godly!

What is? My explanation or the desktop?

Sometimes the mouse or keyboard will miss a click/key so my ww dosent trigger and i do a short tele or or it still thinks i am holding the mouse down and do a second ww in same direction ugg it can drive me nuts when its gets on the frits. I hate cords but might have to go buy a razor mouse sometime.

A razor mouse is not necessary for D2, however I think that the teflon at the bottom will make your namelocking and teleporting a lot easier (as the dirt will not be gathering in the teflon as it does in the normal plastic material of normal mouses). When choosing mouses for D2, I like to go for 2 things: fitting and weight. If the mouse weights too much, your moves will be crippled due to the slightly slower movement of your mouse and if the mouse does not fit your hand well, you will end up correcting your hold constantly which can get you killed in a duel.

Yes dont just kill them nk over and over and then say CRY more pls then NK again.

I find the way of karma approach better. Each time they NK, they will get NKed twice, each time they town guard, they will get NKed twice, each time they town hop, they will get NKed twice and so on. Always two times the crime.

[chek]

there are hacks that do turn your screen black and flash. i havent seen any used in about 2 years tho. im pretty sure your just running into a sin who uses cloak to their advantage. sins can hit with namelock from very far away as well. i suggest testing the distance and you'll see that about 3 screens away then wont be able to hit you. as for duelers on west ladder i play on nl. happyassasin was the main guy on west ladder. from what i understand his gear was hacked recently tho. when ladder drops i will be glad to duel against your bvc.

the sin that was doing that stuff was in a clan(forget the tag until i see them again!) with 2 others there. They just townguarded and nked. I was trying to solo the three of them but I could only kill 1-2 each time never all three. He said he was using a hack but I dont even know whats out there to verify. It did seem odd and I am 100% sure he was mb way further than 3 screens. 50 was exagerated but it must have been around 7+ or so.

When ladder drops ill restart on ladder and be wayyyyyyy tooo busy to have any time to duel on nl. But by the time I am rich enough on the new ladder it would be nice to duel. Everything may change for bvc on the new ladder if there are new ladder rw's ect so dueling you on nl may not be effective practice for ladder duels but time will tell.

[HappyAssassin]

Hi. I was one of the top sins on West Ladder, and I'd be happy to duel you with a WWsin. My gear has recently been stolen (RIP Nekisi), but I have access to a WWsin through a friend's account. It's not quite the same build as mine, so I'm a little unused to it, but I can play it fine. The owner of the sin is just as good (if not better) as me, so he could duel you also. PM at these forums and I'd be happy to setup a private duel, and also explain anything you need to know about wwsins.

[chek]

Hi. I was one of the top sins on West Ladder, and I'd be happy to duel you with a WWsin. My gear has recently been stolen (RIP Nekisi), but I have access to a WWsin through a friend's account. It's not quite the same build as mine, so I'm a little unused to it, but I can play it fine. The owner of the sin is just as good (if not better) as me, so he could duel you also. PM at these forums and I'd be happy to setup a private duel, and also explain anything you need to know about wwsins.

SHWeeet is it really neccisary to pm? my sn is *chekm8 ill be on tonight whats urs?

[HappyAssassin]

Bro, if you can sign on atm, do it, I'm on. Post here or else whisper *catalyst-pvp. It NOT mine, I'm not taking credit :azn: .

[chek]

Lol just fun duel bro I wasent giving or taking any credit. Besides like i said it will be a beatdown. I cant get on till around 5:30pm PST but i will pm you then thanks!

[chek]

Bro, if you can sign on atm, do it, I'm on. Post here or else whisper *catalyst-pvp. It NOT mine, I'm not taking credit :azn: .

thanks again for the duels was fun! I got some work to do on him namely lvling to 90 like ce olba said but man not enough baal games anymore :smiley:

[mclarke]

saw a HUGE poison damage and open wounds on one assassain who ww'd my singer the poison didnt work so well even with her facets but the ow did work seeing i usually battle cry ww users to reduce their damage and often have to change to fireball and just annoy them more than anything else until they become rash and make mistakes where i go on offensive and kill. But the poison user did manage to kill me a few times, had maxed mind blast so when low life she could kill with that and also used a low level trap to keep me in a position if she could while ow + psn whittled down my life, quite effective little wwer, she killed several others with just ww and teleport away then come back when they were low life and 1 more for the kill.

[Rabbitz]

Could anyone explain me why a ww would wana wear fort?, Jake007 and me were in a duel game yesterday and saw one ;/

[morotsjos]

Could anyone explain me why a ww would wana wear fort?, Jake007 and me were in a duel game yesterday and saw one ;/
"ww"=sin or barb?

[Rabbitz]

wwsin I meant..doh, my bad.

[HappyAssassin]

Fort adds Fast Cast Rate, life, resists and damage, and looks like a good option for a WWsin. However, it isn't, some people use it because they don't know better. FCR isn't nearly as valuable without teleport, the life bonus isn't worth it, you dont get the FHR from bramble, your Fade = plenty of resists, and finally (and most importantly) a WWsin with Fort does less damage than a BvC with Enigma most of the time, since the +300% damage is being applied to a Fury that has 160 max damage or a Chaos with 240. Also, many more people have physical resistance than poison resistance.

Before anyone jumps on me for this, yes, there have been a few top Assassins who used Fort for Sin v Sin when it was WWsin vs WWsin and neither of them had teleport. It is useful there, for Pubs, and most opponents, it is much less useful.

[morotsjos]

Before anyone jumps on me for this, yes, there have been a few top Assassins who used Fort for Sin v Sin when it was WWsin vs WWsin and neither of them had teleport. It is useful there, for Pubs, and most opponents, it is much less useful.
if you're thinking of the wwsin ladder @ jsp it was in nm and prebuf wasn't allowed, so fortsins had a huge advantage because of that.

anyway, fort is obviously better on wwsins who focus on high physical damage (eth claws, max/ar/life charms). not that i would use it though.

[HappyAssassin]

Yeah that was the jsp ladder. I didn't remember the part about NM though, good that you pointed that out.