Fury speed setup debate~

[MrGoth]

So what is the verdict between fhr/block/attack speeds on a pvp fury wolf?

My choices between my final nl sc character has come down to a specific barbarian variant, or a rebuild of my fury wolf.

So before I make the final decision I’m running all numbers to see who’s going to have what stats.

And before I do the final touches on my fury wolfs setup, I want to get something a little clearer.

I recall hearing that having too fast of a hit recovery simply meant you were blocking too much and were simply put into a lock of sorts. I think this is what the debate was. But blocking is better than taking damage in my opinion, so where do I go from here?

Who was this debate between? I think one poster was some druid fanatic and another was a novice, but I really don’t remember.

What was the final say on this issue? {If I got the issue topic right that is..}


Is the fastest frame possible to achieve the best? Is it better to give up a frame of attack / fhr / block just to take damage and recover to attack again faster? What’s cooking?

Thanks in advance, Goth~

[stoutewolf]

So what is the verdict between fhr/block/attack speeds on a pvp fury wolf?

My choices between my final nl sc character has come down to a specific barbarian variant, or a rebuild of my fury wolf.

So before I make the final decision I’m running all numbers to see who’s going to have what stats.

And before I do the final touches on my fury wolfs setup, I want to get something a little clearer.

I recall hearing that having too fast of a hit recovery simply meant you were blocking too much and were simply put into a lock of sorts. I think this is what the debate was. But blocking is better than taking damage in my opinion, so where do I go from here?

Who was this debate between? I think one poster was some druid fanatic and another was a novice, but I really don’t remember.

What was the final say on this issue? {If I got the issue topic right that is..}


Is the fastest frame possible to achieve the best? Is it better to give up a frame of attack / fhr / block just to take damage and recover to attack again faster? What’s cooking?

Thanks in advance, Goth~
i thought the block lock was only able in other patches. These days it isnt if i am right. and surely not when you have 86 fhr what i suggest you to hit. This along with a shael in your storm will help you alot with your blocking and stuff. I suggest you ask this puma/ink, one of these participated in this discussion if i am right:thumbsup:

[inkanddagger]

block/attack speed/fhr are totally unbalanced now.

75% block doesn't mean 75% chance to block every hit that rolls a chance to hit you (which is why in 1.09 and before you could be block locked)...here's why:

1.10 introduced a "block timer" which basically means that in between blocks there is a "cool down" period, very similar to casting cool downs/delays on skills like frozen orb, firestorm, FoH, etc. You can make the casting cool down period shorter by adding faster cast rate, and it can be noticeable on skills like firestorm, but no matter how much fcr you get, you can't cast a steady stream. So you might be at 11 frame casting, but in between those 11 frame casts, you have to wait for the spell to cool down, meaning that 11 frame attack isn't "really" 11 frames.
This is how block works now - on interruptable attacks. You have a 75% chance to block a hit that rolls a chance to hit you considering clvl, ar, and defence. After each sucessful block, you have to wait a certain number of frames for blocking to "cool down" in order for you to roll another 75% chance to block. So, you have a 75% chance to block an attack that has rolled a chance to hit you, BUT NOT WITHIN THE TIMER, essentially meaning that 75% block doesn't mean you have a 75% chance to block every attack that rolls a chance to hit you - so 75% block isn't "really" 75% chance to block. You can shorten the timer marginally by using faster block rate.

Now, here's an untechnical answer to your question - if you use 86% fhr, don't worry about shaeling your stormshield. In fact, because of the timered block along with the way hit recovery animations work, you will in fact get hit more by using faster block, fhr and attack all at once. What works in game is 42% fhr with shael storm, or 86% fhr with unshaeled storm.

[stoutewolf]

block/attack speed/fhr are totally unbalanced now.

75% block doesn't mean 75% chance to block every hit that rolls a chance to hit you (which is why in 1.09 and before you could be block locked)...here's why:

1.10 introduced a "block timer" which basically means that in between blocks there is a "cool down" period, very similar to casting cool downs/delays on skills like frozen orb, firestorm, FoH, etc. You can make the casting cool down period shorter by adding faster cast rate, and it can be noticeable on skills like firestorm, but no matter how much fcr you get, you can't cast a steady stream. So you might be at 11 frame casting, but in between those 11 frame casts, you have to wait for the spell to cool down, meaning that 11 frame attack isn't "really" 11 frames.
This is how block works now - on interruptable attacks. You have a 75% chance to block a hit that rolls a chance to hit you considering clvl, ar, and defence. After each sucessful block, you have to wait a certain number of frames for blocking to "cool down" in order for you to roll another 75% chance to block. So, you have a 75% chance to block an attack that has rolled a chance to hit you, BUT NOT WITHIN THE TIMER, essentially meaning that 75% block doesn't mean you have a 75% chance to block every attack that rolls a chance to hit you - so 75% block isn't "really" 75% chance to block. You can shorten the timer marginally by using faster block rate.

Now, here's an untechnical answer to your question - if you use 86% fhr, don't worry about shaeling your stormshield. In fact, because of the timered block along with the way hit recovery animations work, you will in fact get hit more by using faster block, fhr and attack all at once. What works in game is 42% fhr with shael storm, or 86% fhr with unshaeled storm.
are you 100% sure that it's better to use 86 fhr without a shaeled storm jud? if so i think about 40ed/20life jewelling my storm:thumbsup:

[inkanddagger]

are you 100% sure that it's better to use 86 fhr without a shaeled storm jud? if so i think about 40ed/20life jewelling my storm:thumbsup:


it always seemed that if you had 3 frame recovery and 5 frame block, you would be available to take a hit much more often, but with 3 recovery and 6 block, you would be attacking more - this is a balancing issue that I can't really explain - the timers might interfere with each other in some way.

it could be something like this: druids can have superior recovery from attacks, recovering faster than most people can hit them (barring kicksins and strafers), so after taking a hit they are available to start hitting their opponent faster than their opponents next hit can land - in two handed druid duels, you NOTICE a difference between 3 and 4 frame hit recovery. FHR makes a big time improvement. But when you introduce block, something druids aren't very good at doing, you mess up the druids superior attack and recover and turn it into a halfrate blocker that sometimes acts superior - 5 frame block rate makes the "apparent block timer" shorter, allowing the druid to be able to block more - also meaning that the druid is doing less of what it does best - hitting and recovering. There's also that glitch where if you are hit while swinging your initial attack the concurrent fury attacks miss, but if you hit that first attack the fury attacks should all have a chance to hit. It seems like the faster block rate makes the faster hit recovery glitch up.

[sablast]

@inkanddagger
While a go, I made a thread in statistic forum about speed of blocking vs attacks speed. Although that thread wasn't about fhr and fbr ballance, RTB said that blocking timer always lasts for 10 frames, and, if I understood him correctly, that when timer starts, only block animation won't be displayed, but character will be able to block within those 10 frames, although blocking animation for that blocks won't be displayed.

Could you please read and comment RTB's replies, cause I would really want to know best ballance for wolfs.

http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=442614
(RTB's first reply implies that blocking within timer is possible)

[MrGoth]

<3 ink, this is the stuff I needed to hear. Ty all~

[inkanddagger]

I don't believe that blocking within the timer occurs. This is from doing swing tests to check it - I need to find the numbers i wrote down to check it, but a friend and i did this on single player, he swung at me with zeal at 4 fpa, and I was consistently blocking an average of 62% with 75% block. I tested this because we noticed how often 4 or 5 hits in a row would get by block on a druid.

Tested again in patch 09 single player, 75% is an apparent 75%, and not the ~62% of this patch.


also, RTBs response doesn't seem to conflict with my post. If you can show an attack animation, you can't block at the same time, unless you are an uninterruptable attacker. Therefore blocking within the timer doesn't occur, or attack would be impossible - unless the attacking graphic display is entirely a glitch.

[RTB]

That would mean Blizzard messed up (as usual), because you are supposed to be able to block in that fixed 10 frame period. Try testing against an amazon with a 1h swinging weapon and no FBR. Those have a really long blocking animation. Unfortunately I don't have the time for such tests this week.

[inkanddagger]

I'm going to take this one step farther:

You know how it is "common knowledge" that if you get hit on your initial swing then all attacks in the animation miss?
What if, instead of an imbalance with hitting, it is an imbalance caused because of the block animation timer? Say you are supposed to be able to block in that 10 frames, which makes it impossible to attack BUT if you can show attack animation during that time then it should also be impossible to block - So maybe what is happening is they replaced the animation that is blocking with an animation that is attacking BUT not doing anything, in order to "fix" blocklock. This is why they made zeal uninterruptable after so many peole complained at the start of 1.10.

[sablast]

I'm going to take this one step farther:

You know how it is "common knowledge" that if you get hit on your initial swing then all attacks in the animation miss?
What if, instead of an imbalance with hitting, it is an imbalance caused because of the block animation timer?
I think you could be on to something, I noticed that all 5 fury swings miss only with one handed weapon and a shield. I'm not sure, but I think that never happened with 2 hander

[trooper]

I've noticed when i have 0 block against zealers at least half the time i've dueled them.
Never understood liek ink explained it.
but yeah druid block is seriously ****ed up

[RTB]

You know how it is "common knowledge" that if you get hit on your initial swing then all attacks in the animation miss?
What if, instead of an imbalance with hitting, it is an imbalance caused because of the block animation timer? Say you are supposed to be able to block in that 10 frames, which makes it impossible to attack BUT if you can show attack animation during that time then it should also be impossible to block - So maybe what is happening is they replaced the animation that is blocking with an animation that is attacking BUT not doing anything, in order to "fix" blocklock. This is why they made zeal uninterruptable after so many peole complained at the start of 1.10.
Which is one step too far. What you see on your screen isn't always what's happening on the server, Fend is a perfect example. The situation you describe is exactly what's happening to that skill if interrupted, the attack animation continues at the client, but the server stops it and considers the character to be idling for the rest of the attack. There's a flag for every skill that determines whether it can be stopped serverside or not, and by far most skills can be interrupted, including Fury. Zeal and Fend are supposed to be uninterruptible, but Fend is a unique case anyway thanks to the amazon's D/A/E, which force an animation change. Druids have always been an exception when dealing with animations, it wouldn't be surprising if this wasn't another one of their quirks.