View Full Version : Trade Rules Revision -- Input Thread
Cattleya
14-06-2006, 09:05
Hrus and I are starting to work on revising the Trade Forum rules, and so we are opening them back up for input. You can see the last thread for this discussion here (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=319882). It's more than a year old, so some of the ideas in it may not really apply anymore, but you can take a look at it for ideas.
Here are some points for discussion that I have pulled out of that old thread, as well as from some recent threads in the SPF. Of course, if you have something else you want to bring up, go ahead.
(1) Rune trading: This was the big topic in the old thread. This topic is open for debate, but Hrus and I get the final say on it, regardless.
(2) Auctions: A lot of the issues around auctions look to have worked themselves out naturally over time, and the move to the code blocks to keep them organized has allowed larger auctions to run pretty smoothly. So, do you think we need an auction guidelines section in the rules, and if you do, what would you like to see in it?
(3) New Member Screening: If you want to take this demon on, I would strongly suggest reading through the old thread to get some ideas and a feeling for the debates that have already happened. Just keep in mind that Hrus and I do have lives outside of the forum as you think of ideas here. :smiley:
(4) Reasonable Offers: There were some complaints about unreasonable offers being made. I think that the pricecheck thread has actually helped this problem quite a bit.
(5) Mods: You may have noticed this topic was pretty much non-existant in the original thread. It turns out that it predated the SPF's move to Mod-friendly, so it wasn't an issue back then.
For simplicities sake, I want to go with the concept that mod tainted = modded, despite whether or not a mod is installed on the trader's computer. Then, there is never another reason to use the word tainted for a trade status, and things will be less confusing for newcomers. Feel free to continue to call yourself "tainted" in your own mind, though. :grin: I would like to see some clearly defined status tags set up. I would also like to see these required in the trade thread title. (The first test to see if new people read the rules.) This won't exclude more complicated things like ISO [1.11 SC RWM/RWM] FT [1.11 SC Vanilla] so don't worry about that.
Here are some of my ideas. (Translation: these will likely make their way into the new rules revision unless I get talked out of it. :grin: )
(1) The rules will include the suggestion to post an intro thread in the SPF, as well as the direction to read the FAQs in the SPF.
(2) If someone has labeled their trade with a certain mod status, you may not post offers in their thread if you are trading items that involve mods they do not use. (This way Vanilla people can look over a RWM persons trade thread, and decide to make the plunge, but it's not presented to them in their own trade thread, and should cut down on accidental taint.)
(3) No offering items for free when there are trade negoitations already in progress. Also, allow a post to be up for 24 hours before offering items for free. Otherwise, less item rich traders get cut out of the trade pool. (Perhaps we will wave the 24 hour rule for the Small ISO thread.) This also helps the generous people who do give items away in trade threads by setting up clear guidelines so they can be helpful without crossing a "bad manners" line.
wilypueo
14-06-2006, 10:52
Hrm, I haven't been haunting the SPF for too long, but here are my views. FWIW, I did bother to read through the first half dozen or so and last couple pages of the old thread.
Since P. Gems are allowable tradeables, then at the very least low runes, up through Shael say, should be given the green light. I also like the idea of mid to high rune trading as it may provide a standard currency and an easier way to get from item A (or items A through Y) to item Z. I'd nix the vouching system idea, too big a bundle of worms that. Instead, I think a warning about trading high runes in the rules thread would be useful, i.e. "Caution highly advised when trading for runes with new members to the forum" blah blah blah. It just comes down to trade at your own risk, just like with anything else. Also, It might be cool to have members who participate in rune trades, to have their mid-high rune count posted in their signature line :scratch: Just have to remember to update it regularly.
The other thing is, and I am not trying to offend anyone, but I think freebies/giveaways should be kept in the SPF giveaway thread. The trade forum is for trading. If someone wants freebies, then he/she can go to that thread and/or be directed to it. It might hurt new traders in the long run anyhow to have not made that small trade or two to get started.
RikerKirk
14-06-2006, 11:12
I agree with wilypueo on the offering free items in trade threads. I think its contrary to the spirit of the trading community. Should stick to givaway threads.
As far as runes go, It would have to be a very, very respected member of the community in order for me to trade for a rune. However, I think it should be left up to the people involved, with Caveat Emptor taking precedence.
What a timing! This thread addresses some issues I was thinking about PM'ing you about. Allow me to comment on your points. [long post ahead!]
(1) Rune trading: This was the big topic in the old thread. This topic is open for debate, but Hrus and I get the final say on it, regardless.
I'd say at least allow trading runes that can be cubed without gems (up to Thul).
In this way, obsessive crafters can get their runes, and it opens up another payment option for small ISOs.
Useful mid-end runes [Shael,Hel,etc.] that can be easily countessed should be tradeable too, because they are quite easy to come by.
I think a problem might present itself if you allow the trade of forge rush runes, since not everyone is cool with this tactic (I am though).
Trading Mal+ runes should be kept out of the SPTF. The lack of fingerprints is quite unconvenient.
Edit: Upon thinking some more about this, I'd say trade high runes only with people you absolutely trust. The reasons for this trust can vary, but as the post below stated: 'caveat emptor'. At least keep these trades public.
(2) Auctions: A lot of the issues around auctions look to have worked themselves out naturally over time, and the move to the code blocks to keep them organized has allowed larger auctions to run pretty smoothly. So, do you think we need an auction guidelines section in the rules, and if you do, what would you like to see in it?
I think the small trading community can take care of the auctions quite well.
A mini-faq with code formatting tips would be handy. SintNikolaas' tournament guide contains these tips.
I don't think strict rules on auctions are necessary. This is not EBay. It's a small trading communtiy. I've not seen huge problems with the auctions that have been held.
(3) New Member Screening: If you want to take this demon on, I would strongly suggest reading through the old thread to get some ideas and a feeling for the debates that have already happened. Just keep in mind that Hrus and I do have lives outside of the forum as you think of ideas here. :smiley:
Ouch, I think that trying to tackle this issue might turn the SPTF into a daunting fortress with burning moat, where new members are intimidated to stay away. I'd say excercise caution and common sense in trading with new members. I think that enough vigilant traders watch trades and step in when necessary. Especially since PM trades are now to be presented on the forum.
(4) Reasonable Offers: There were some complaints about unreasonable offers being made. I think that the pricecheck thread has actually helped this problem quite a bit.
Smart traders browse the pricecheck thread and previous auctions. I know I do. But some trades could still be called unfair. The problem is that the valuation of items varies wildly. A grailer can be expected to heavily overpay for a Stormspire (TC87), while a PvP'er would sacrifice his/her(??!) left nut for a 20/20/3 fine SC (assuming a legit one ever surfaces here).
As long as both people are happy with their trade, there should be no problem.
Just don't trade your Death's Web away at the first offer containing something shiny.
(5) Mods: You may have noticed this topic was pretty much non-existant in the original thread. It turns out that it predated the SPF's move to Mod-friendly, so it wasn't an issue back then.
For simplicities sake, I want to go with the concept that mod tainted = modded, despite whether or not a mod is installed on the trader's computer. Then, there is never another reason to use the word tainted for a trade status, and things will be less confusing for newcomers. Feel free to continue to call yourself "tainted" in your own mind, though. :grin: I would like to see some clearly defined status tags set up. I would also like to see these required in the trade thread title. (The first test to see if new people read the rules.) This won't exclude more complicated things like ISO [1.11 SC RWM/RWM] FT [1.11 SC Vanilla] so don't worry about that.
I think the term 'tainted' should be thrown out of a speeding train, but I haven't come up with a nice alternative yet...
While the idea of interaction with mod = modded is absurd to some people, it has to be adhered to, out of respect to vanilla traders.
I agree with requiring mod tags in trade thread titles.
Here are some of my ideas. (Translation: these will likely make their way into the new rules revision unless I get talked out of it. :grin: )
(1) The rules will include the suggestion to post an intro thread in the SPF, as well as the direction to read the FAQs in the SPF.
This is the least a new trader should do.
(2) If someone has labeled their trade with a certain mod status, you may not post offers in their thread if you are trading items that involve mods they do not use. (This way Vanilla people can look over a RWM persons trade thread, and decide to make the plunge, but it's not presented to them in their own trade thread, and should cut down on accidental taint.)
Agreed. Or at least link to one or more threads where this mod issue has been discussed, so the new trader can get a feel for the mod situation before accepting the influence.
(3) No offering items for free when there are trade negoitations already in progress. Also, allow a post to be up for 24 hours before offering items for free. Otherwise, less item rich traders get cut out of the trade pool. (Perhaps we will wave the 24 hour rule for the Small ISO thread.) This also helps the generous people who do give items away in trade threads by setting up clear guidelines so they can be helpful without crossing a "bad manners" line.
My philantropist urges sometimes overwhelm me, and I'm tempted to gib free itamz. A 24 hour period, maybe even 48 hours, should give the little people (sorry, bad joke) a chance to trade. Who am I to thwart the Isenhart collector by handing out free cracked sashes.
Only keep the 24 hour rule out of the small ISO thread. I like to gib socketables.
Final note: What's that about the 'no trading of socket quest rewards'? I say yes to trades involving a socketed item.
(1) Rune trading: This was the big topic in the old thread. This topic is open for debate, but Hrus and I get the final say on it, regardless.
I echo wilypueo and RikerKirk's suggestions, allow rune-trading but up to a certain extent and take your own risks. HR traders have the right to refuse those they don't trust.
(2) Auctions: A lot of the issues around auctions look to have worked themselves out naturally over time, and the move to the code blocks to keep them organized has allowed larger auctions to run pretty smoothly. So, do you think we need an auction guidelines section in the rules, and if you do, what would you like to see in it?
Well, auctions should contain things like any other trade threads, auctioned item and an ISO list. There should be some kind of proper evaluation of the items auctioned, and offers should consist of items in the ISO list unless stated otherwise.
(3) New Member Screening: If you want to take this demon on, I would strongly suggest reading through the old thread to get some ideas and a feeling for the debates that have already happened. Just keep in mind that Hrus and I do have lives outside of the forum as you think of ideas here. :smiley:
This one I strongly agree and would like to see implemented here in the SPF. A subforum, where membership applications are submitted and reviewed. You and Hrus might need some extra hands on this, so why not elect a few respectable members here as the UNOFFICIAL panel of voters. They shall vote wht they want this member in..or out. Makes things easier for you guys :grin:
(5) Mods: You may have noticed this topic was pretty much non-existant in the original thread. It turns out that it predated the SPF's move to Mod-friendly, so it wasn't an issue back then.
Shouldn't be an issue to many.
I would like to see some clearly defined status tags set up.
Yes, somehow this must be implemented, for the sake of our vanilla users. As someone suggested before, a list of traders with their respective mods? Those that don't post, can't trade. Traders can refer the list easily for info they would want to know.
Here are some of my ideas. (Translation: these will likely make their way into the new rules revision unless I get talked out of it. :grin: )
(1) The rules will include the suggestion to post an intro thread in the SPF, as well as the direction to read the FAQs in the SPF.
(2) If someone has labeled their trade with a certain mod status, you may not post offers in their thread if you are trading items that involve mods they do not use. (This way Vanilla people can look over a RWM persons trade thread, and decide to make the plunge, but it's not presented to them in their own trade thread, and should cut down on accidental taint.)
(3) No offering items for free when there are trade negoitations already in progress. Also, allow a post to be up for 24 hours before offering items for free. Otherwise, less item rich traders get cut out of the trade pool. (Perhaps we will wave the 24 hour rule for the Small ISO thread.) This also helps the generous people who do give items away in trade threads by setting up clear guidelines so they can be helpful without crossing a "bad manners" line.
3 very great ideas! :thumbsup:
somethingsin
14-06-2006, 13:56
I'm for allowing rune trading, at your own trust and risk.
It's not as if this is the only place to trade, and it's plenty easy to arrange such a trade through other means, without any community supervision..
(that seems to be what most high runeword owners have done)
I strongly feel against disallowing giveaways, as the giveaway thread does not allow item requests. The 24 hour rule, with exception for small ISO, seems a good idea though
OK, here are my 2 cents... or 2 El runes :smiley:
(1) Rune trading: This was the big topic in the old thread. This topic is open for debate, but Hrus and I get the final say on it, regardless.
Runes are already traded here... and I'm not talking about PM/email trades. Crafted items and even upgraded items - what about them? We need some kind of definite decision on this question: ban crafted/upgraded items or allow rune tradeing, I don't see how one can be allowed and other not.
I would like to see all runes freely traded here, but I doubt that's good idea. It's completely possible to make hacked item with legit ID, you only need some knowledge about TCs/mlvl/qlvl. But, people that know these things don't bother with duping or tradeing hacked items... Bluntly said people that come here and trade hacked items are usualy more stupid than ameba with lobotomy. It's easy to detect their hacked items and even easier to see from their posts that there's something fishy (fishy... not Fishy) about them. But you don't need any knowledge to make perfect rune... and only one high rune could cost legit trader here whole stash of elite uniques when it's discovered that person from which he got rune is hacking.
IMHO runes up to Shael should be allowed to trade, higher runes can be traded through PM/email among trusted members. Or made some rule about number of trades needed before you can trade HR... anything that discourages new members tradeing high runes few days after they joined forum.
(3) New Member Screening: If you want to take this demon on, I would strongly suggest reading through the old thread to get some ideas and a feeling for the debates that have already happened. Just keep in mind that Hrus and I do have lives outside of the forum as you think of ideas here. :smiley:
Heh... tough one. IMHO best and easiest way for all traders and mods is to use some common sense. No fixed rules can solve this. When someone posts trade thread read his posts in SPF, look for his intro thread and things like that. If you still don't know that person good enough, he/she has only few posts and offers you some godly item don't just rush blindly into trade. Also I would suggets new members to post their trades after few weeks/months of regular posting in SPF. That's what I did... Or maybe I was just to lazy to make tradelist earlier? :undecided:
(4) Reasonable Offers: There were some complaints about unreasonable offers being made. I think that the pricecheck thread has actually helped this problem quite a bit.
Who can say what's unreasonable offer? Item values are relative... not everybody plays same chars, not everybody values rare items more than useful not-so-rare items so you cannot make fixed price list. There's always someone to point out unfair offers and that's good way to keep trading fair.
(3) No offering items for free when there are trade negoitations already in progress. Also, allow a post to be up for 24 hours before offering items for free. Otherwise, less item rich traders get cut out of the trade pool. (Perhaps we will wave the 24 hour rule for the Small ISO thread.) This also helps the generous people who do give items away in trade threads by setting up clear guidelines so they can be helpful without crossing a "bad manners" line.
Excelent idea.
(3) No offering items for free when there are trade negoitations already in progress. Also, allow a post to be up for 24 hours before offering items for free. Otherwise, less item rich traders get cut out of the trade pool. (Perhaps we will wave the 24 hour rule for the Small ISO thread.) This also helps the generous people who do give items away in trade threads by setting up clear guidelines so they can be helpful without crossing a "bad manners" line.
I sent a PM to you and Hrus about this one but I'll throw it out here too as others may have some input on it.
Maybe giveaways can be eliminated from the trade forum altogether. A shake up in the SPF giveaway thread could help. A new thread could be started to give new players a chance to ask for common items. I don't know if this is completely out of the question though. If for some reason it is, no biggie. :smiley:
For example, a new player that wants to make an IK barb. We all know the Maul is extremely common and will not have much of a trade value. So, should a new player post a trade thread, wait 24 hours, and then hope someone offers up the item? Should someone that has the item just sitting there wait 24 hours and then follow up on a trade thread to help?
If there was somewhere they could request the common stuff, then the trade forum would mold to experienced people looking to trade the harder to find items and ones that actually have a value. By that point, those that need to go to the trade forum would mostly be those with experience and that might help eliminate the danger of trading with newer players. IE: If the new player can get the IK maul for free, it will give more time for them to establish themselves at the forum.
Maybe there could be a rule where the new person has to post a trade thread first to see if they have any takers and then if they don't they can then post a request in an updated giveaway thread in the SPF?
Anywho, these are just my thoughts. I don't have any experience trading so I'm not the best one to talk about ways to improve the trade economy so I won't be offended if you guys tell me this idea stinks. lol :grin:
My two El runes :smiley:
We must find a way to encourage low level trading. Banning giveaway from SPTF is one of the good ideas. Some encouragement words for the 'poor' players to join the SPTF might needed. Also an advice for the rich is to try to not involve self to make a trade with a 'poor' player when it seems very possibly there are other 'poor' players will interested to make a deal. It's hard to describe since this is matter of ethics.
Concerning runes, my opinion is to allow all runes trade but considering the risk maybe capping runes allowed to trade up to IST is a good idea.
I don't want to sounds rude, but this time I hope any decision about rune trade is purely based on forumites concencus, since the current regulation to ban rune trade is honestly I feel it is a one side decision from moderator(s).
Thankyou
-salvo
Steven Q Urkel
15-06-2006, 05:28
Just keep in mind that Hrus and I do have lives outside of the forum......
Nonsense, we won't stand for it. all your free time are belong to Single Player Trade Forum!!!! :evil:
My Thoughts:
- I am against an all out ban on rune trading. As someone who doesn't have the time or the resources/know how for hf rushing, I wouldn't mind the chance to able to make an offer for an ist or gul rune etc here or there.
- imho, new member screening = not gg. However, new member ISO list screening can and should be done. When people come in looking for sup eth zerkers, 5 socket elite poleaxes, 15% breast plates, etc., it should raise up some red flags. I think many, if not most, of us do this already, so we should be o.k. here.
- I agree that offering to give away items when someone has already proposed a trade is bad form. However, an all out ban on gibaways I don't like. We pride ourselves on kindness and generousity in the spf, i don't think there is anything wrong with extending that (to a certain extent) to the sptf.
-
(1) Rune trading: This was the big topic in the old thread. This topic is open for debate, but Hrus and I get the final say on it, regardless.
I would like to see the ability to trade for runes, even HRs, but with some strict rules. I think we are better off now then when there were little to no checks on people trading HRs. Also, as mentioned, Rune trading does happen other places (email, PM, private chats etc...) and conducting those trades out in the open would have some benefits.
What we need is a simple system with a simple set of rules that does enforces some accountability for runes.
My personal idea is (its been in my head for a while but could have originated form someone else in a previous thread) to require that the rune find be claimed in the SPF (IFT preferably) and have a month pass since that post. At least for HRs above X (I would probably say Pul and above).
Ultimately, I think that if rune trading is going to re-enter the SPTF some focused discussion needs to happen. Meybe the other issues will get resolved here quickly and runes will become the focus but if not, I would like to see a focus discussion on runes. Preferably using an election example, nominate rule candidates, discuss the rules, vote for the top choice (or if there are a pile of choices, select a few to battle it out).
(2) Auctions:
Auctions seems to be under control.
(3) New Member Screening:
I'm writing a bit out of order so sorry if I appear to be repeating myself. I personally think that dupers are a lazy bunch. While I don't agree with signup lists and new tradder applications and ritualistic ceremonies, I do think that leaving a hoop or two to jump through will go a long ways to blocking the lazy dupers. I think posting a new member intro in the SPF is a excellent "hoop". Beyond that, if we simply make sure that new member's ATMA readouts are posted while in the trade process, I think we'll catch most of what we reasonably can by any other method.
(4) Reasonable Offers:
As long as trades are public, completely unreasonable offers get shot down quite quickly. It may be worth strongly suggesting, in a yet to be updated set of SPTF rules, that traders excercise patience, especially new members, as older members will usualy pipe up if something is going amiss.
(5) Mods: You may have noticed this topic was pretty much non-existant in the original thread. It turns out that it predated the SPF's move to Mod-friendly, so it wasn't an issue back then.
For simplicities sake, I want to go with the concept that mod tainted = modded, despite whether or not a mod is installed on the trader's computer. Then, there is never another reason to use the word tainted for a trade status, and things will be less confusing for newcomers. Feel free to continue to call yourself "tainted" in your own mind, though. :grin: I would like to see some clearly defined status tags set up. I would also like to see these required in the trade thread title. (The first test to see if new people read the rules.) This won't exclude more complicated things like ISO [1.11 SC RWM/RWM] FT [1.11 SC Vanilla] so don't worry about that.
Excellent, also os a final "hoop" for new members.
(1) The rules will include the suggestion to post an intro thread in the SPF, as well as the direction to read the FAQs in the SPF.
Excellent
(2) If someone has labeled their trade with a certain mod status, you may not post offers in their thread if you are trading items that involve mods they do not use. (This way Vanilla people can look over a RWM persons trade thread, and decide to make the plunge, but it's not presented to them in their own trade thread, and should cut down on accidental taint.)
I'm a bit iffy here. I do see interest in trying to "buy" someones mod status, but the benefit in reduced accidental taint is probably much more valuable.
(3) No offering items for free when there are trade negoitations already in progress. Also, allow a post to be up for 24 hours before offering items for free. Otherwise, less item rich traders get cut out of the trade pool. (Perhaps we will wave the 24 hour rule for the Small ISO thread.) This also helps the generous people who do give items away in trade threads by setting up clear guidelines so they can be helpful without crossing a "bad manners" line.
If there is anything I disagree with its this. (And I recognise that I am in the minority here.) I do see the value in allowing trades to happen but I also see this as a natual counter (without fixing or enforcing any rules) to unreasonable offers.
Example: Newcommer arrives and says I'm building an IK barb, right now I need the Boots and the Maul, I have a few PGems, some Occulus thingy, and a couple Venom Wards.
Person B arrives and offers the Maul and Boots for the Occulus.
As person C, I have three recourses of action: 1) yell foul, which may eventually get to the heart of the issue but hurts the newcommer in the short term. 2) Offer the items for free 3) Offer the items for a few PGems, knowing that in my mind even the simple task of moving the PGems around isn't worth their cost, I'll never use them and am wasting the newcommers resources.
I guess I don't think we should completely do away with the word free. Perhaps hold off free offers for 24 hours but allow simple posts like "Hey, most of your ISO is available in the giveaway thread here (add link)".
Ultimately, I see free offers and unreasonable offers tightly linked. Free offers are a natural counter to unreasonable offers, I'm worried that, while unreasonable offers are not a problem now, they could become one if we take away the counters.
(1) Rune trading: This was the big topic in the old thread. This topic is open for debate, but Hrus and I get the final say on it, regardless.
(2) Auctions: A lot of the issues around auctions look to have worked themselves out naturally over time, and the move to the code blocks to keep them organized has allowed larger auctions to run pretty smoothly. So, do you think we need an auction guidelines section in the rules, and if you do, what would you like to see in it?
(3) New Member Screening: If you want to take this demon on, I would strongly suggest reading through the old thread to get some ideas and a feeling for the debates that have already happened. Just keep in mind that Hrus and I do have lives outside of the forum as you think of ideas here. :smiley:
(4) Reasonable Offers: There were some complaints about unreasonable offers being made. I think that the pricecheck thread has actually helped this problem quite a bit.
(5) Mods: You may have noticed this topic was pretty much non-existant in the original thread. It turns out that it predated the SPF's move to Mod-friendly, so it wasn't an issue back then.
Here are some of my ideas. (Translation: these will likely make their way into the new rules revision unless I get talked out of it. :grin: )
(1) The rules will include the suggestion to post an intro thread in the SPF, as well as the direction to read the FAQs in the SPF.
(2) If someone has labeled their trade with a certain mod status, you may not post offers in their thread if you are trading items that involve mods they do not use. (This way Vanilla people can look over a RWM persons trade thread, and decide to make the plunge, but it's not presented to them in their own trade thread, and should cut down on accidental taint.)
(3) No offering items for free when there are trade negoitations already in progress. Also, allow a post to be up for 24 hours before offering items for free. Otherwise, less item rich traders get cut out of the trade pool. (Perhaps we will wave the 24 hour rule for the Small ISO thread.) This also helps the generous people who do give items away in trade threads by setting up clear guidelines so they can be helpful without crossing a "bad manners" line.
Questions 1 and 3 go hand in hand. As of right now, I am adamantly against rune trading of any kind. That means, I am also against the trading of Up’d items, crafted items, and runewords. Crafted and Up’d items has always been a bone of contention with many members here and with good reason. It also feeds directly into this debate.
There is currently a policy in place that forbids the trading of runes in the SPTF. There needs to be a rationale behind the change if one was to take place. Why, after all this time, is rune trading all of a sudden ok? Because runes up to Shael drop like candy? Doesn’t that argue against the trading of them? If you want a Ral so bad, go run the Countess 5 times and get one. You will have one long before you could trade for one. Where do you draw the line? Salvo mentioned an Ist. I have played D2 since the day of release and I have never gotten an Ist. Just last week my LF zon finally punched through to Mat and I got a MAL rune from the HF. I was ecstatic, as that was the highest rune I have ever found. So why draw the line at an Ist? Is it because an Ist is the highest mid level rune? To Salvo, it might be, but to me an Ist is a hellishly high level rune. If a line was to be drawn somewhere, it needs to be done for a reason and not arbitrarily based on someone's perceptions. (I am NOT attacking Salvo. I dont know why he picked an Ist. His perceptions of high runes I am sure differ from mine.)
There is no way to ensure the legitimacy of a rune. Fingerprints and iLvls give us a sense of security in item trades, even if we can’t be positive about an item. There is no safety blanket for runes. This is where I believe there has to be a system to give credibility to individual traders. If we knew that traders have been through a screening process, then we would feel safer trading anything. How can this be done? Off the top of my head, I have no idea. But, I know that no matter what systems are in place, there could be those that find their way around it. We have to draw the line somewhere. Right now, its runes in general.
I suggest that we try to implement some safeguards before we do anything with runes. They may not do anything but make us traders feel safer, but runes are exceedingly easy to manufacture. I don’t know how to create new items, but using ATMA I could easily create a thousand MAL runes based on my one MAL I found. The only way that you should feel safe trading for a MAL from me is if I am viewed as a legitimate and trusted trader in the community. And that, may be a very difficult thing to quantify.
My thoughts. Sorry for the length.
Thadar
XDoomasX
15-06-2006, 21:46
Runes, RW and other rune related trades is traded though PM's and/or mail all the time (atleast to my knowledge).
I vote for alowing it in SPTF, but one who wants to trade runes must state where rune came from and it will be easy find roots where and how rune droped. OC risk is high and everyone must be aware that if duper is cought he will bring down all who interected with him.
Two mods and lots of other members like Tracul is enough IMO to police rune trades here:thumbsup:
wilypueo
16-06-2006, 00:21
Some responses, not meant to be inflammatory:
@jjscud: Regarding freebies, I don't really see it as a natural counter for preventing one-sided trades. And, many times what is one sided is not always cut and dry--and who gets to decide what is? In your example, perhaps the person who wanted the IK items had a dozen Occy's or just wanted the items pronto and was willing to overpay. To me, a natural counter IS another trader offering the same items for less. Also, I have no problem with someone posting in my thread politely that he/she thinks I am asking too little/too much for an item.
@thadar: Okay, then by your logic, we should not be trading P. Gems either correct? Then, since we can use duped P. Gems to roll for magic items (blues), we shouldn't allow trading for those either. Oh but wait, we can create infinite gold too, so we shouldn't allow trades of any rares, sets, or uniques since they can be gambled (except most class specifics). Really, I can understand how members are leary about trading for high runes (or any runes) but I don't see what the difference there is between runes and everything else given the context above. Caveat Emptor is the only meaningful rule there is on this forum IMHO. If you want to stay untainted from possible dupers/irresponsible modders/etc, then you have to refrain from all trading.
Ohomemgrande
16-06-2006, 00:51
Regarding rune trading, here are some ideas to consider. Note that I don't currently trade but I found this discussion to be interesting.
-Use some sort of pre-screening to get into the "runes club" I suspect this is already informally done by those that are engaged in rune trade via PM/email. This could involve baselining the person's rune-wealth, prior trading practices, SPF participation, etc. Clearly rune trading is much higher risk than item trading so isn't it reasonable to expect higher standards to get into the club. It's kind of like getting a car loan; you've got to build a good credit to get the money. Make a requirement that a rune trader have spent a certain amount of time participating in the community either in SPF or in "item" trading.
-Require all runes higher than X be accompanied by a screenshot of the drop. This could be staged but it's another hoop to jump through. I liked the idea of maintaining a history of the rune though. Maybe this is related to putting the rune in the SPF item find thread and letting it be "quarantined" for a month before it can come on the market.
-Make the sugestion that traders quarantine new items for a set amount of time. Maybe even have someone write up a basic guide on ways to do that.
The one other comment I do have is to question how the forum can tolerate rune trading via PM/email. Everyone sure rushes to make sure that unintentional dupes are deleted so that people can stay legit. Victims of bad trades have been known to delete entire stashes so they can remain good in the eyes of other traders. I'd be more woried about abuses from these under-the-table deals for runes. It's a double standard when the forum rules expressly prohibit rune trading. Either it should be out in the open or forbidden completely.
-Jason
Some responses, not meant to be inflammatory:
@thadar: Okay, then by your logic, we should not be trading P. Gems either correct? Then, since we can use duped P. Gems to roll for magic items (blues), we shouldn't allow trading for those either. Oh but wait, we can create infinite gold too, so we shouldn't allow trades of any rares, sets, or uniques since they can be gambled (except most class specifics). Really, I can understand how members are leary about trading for high runes (or any runes) but I don't see what the difference there is between runes and everything else given the context above. Caveat Emptor is the only meaningful rule there is on this forum IMHO. If you want to stay untainted from possible dupers/irresponsible modders/etc, then you have to refrain from all trading.
Any argument can be taken to extremes.
For whatever reason, afaik known only to Kremtok and AE, they decided to ban rune trading. The point of my post was mainly to say that we shouldnt just scrap the rule without first studying what might be the consequences. Why was the rule initially put in place? What can we come up with to alleviate the concerns of those worried about dupes or hacks?
With our current system, I am against rune trading. That doesnt mean that I always will be. You are correct that the only way to stay pure is to never trade, but most, including myself find that to take some of the fun away from the game. Take away from the community. However, we all have our points where we wont go any farther.
So, if rune trading is to be allowed, why? What has changed? How can we ensure (to the best of our ability) that they are legit?
Thadar
How can we ensure (to the best of our ability) that they are legit?
We cannot. Just like we cannot ensure gems, charms, rares and everything else wilypueo mentioned is legit. And you cannot ensure any item traded by anyone is legit... so if you are willing to accept IKSC or WF from someone why exclude Shael rune? Or even some higher runes? If you don't belive some old, respectable member is trading legit rune how can you belive he will delete that elite unique he traded to you from his stash?
The one other comment I do have is to question how the forum can tolerate rune trading via PM/email.
You are joking, right? How exactly do you think moderators should monitor private email communication between members of this forum? Should secret service start searching mailes for Jah, Cham and Zod together with bomb, suicide attack and jihad? :rolleyes:
If you don't belive some old, respectable member is trading legit rune how can you belive he will delete that elite unique he traded to you from his stash?
Thats what Im getting at. Who is an old, respectable member? How is that determined? If everything has to be personally determined then there is no point to trading rules in general.
-Use some sort of pre-screening to get into the "runes club" I suspect this is already informally done by those that are engaged in rune trade via PM/email. This could involve baselining the person's rune-wealth, prior trading practices, SPF participation, etc. Clearly rune trading is much higher risk than item trading so isn't it reasonable to expect higher standards to get into the club. It's kind of like getting a car loan; you've got to build a good credit to get the money. Make a requirement that a rune trader have spent a certain amount of time participating in the community either in SPF or in "item" trading.
That..is a very good suggestion :thumbsup:
On the aspect of trading non-FP items and items which are affected by them, IMO, No to Upgraded Exceptional Items. The rest are all right I guess.
p/s: Those who dupe Rals/Tals/Orts/Nefs/Pgems/Gold......I have a card of a nice psychiatrist :grin:
Ohomemgrande
16-06-2006, 02:43
You are joking, right? How exactly do you think moderators should monitor private email communication between members of this forum? Should secret service start searching mailes for Jah, Cham and Zod together with bomb, suicide attack and jihad? :rolleyes:
No joking here. Nor am I sugesting that the mods monitor private communications, etc. Personally, I have no problem with rune trading within a trusted trading community which is what I think we are trying to have.
I'm just wondering why the "no trading of dupes" rule is a sacred cow and the "no trading of runes" can be circumvented without reprecussions if I do it under the table. Under this logic, why can't I just trade "dupes" via private communication too???
All I'm saying is that for a community where trust is so important, why is this rule so easily ignored?
-Jason
Thats what Im getting at. Who is an old, respectable member? How is that determined?
That's for you to decide. But my point was: if you already belive some peple are legit and you trade other items with them why not runes also?
If everything has to be personally determined then there is no point to trading rules in general.
You are exaggerating. You cannot solve everything with rules, but they are absolutely needed.
Those who dupe Rals/Tals/Orts/Nefs/Pgems/Gold......I have a card of a nice psychiatrist :grin:
Well, if something is insane that doesn't mean there aren't people doing it... after all, there's alot of crazy weirdos out there :smiley:
BTW congrats on your Palship Tracul :thumbsup:
necrolemming
16-06-2006, 02:57
Wow. It's been a while since the SPTF was established. I feel old. :tongue:
1. There have been plenty of rune trades since the ban was applied. However, it seems to have been effective at reducing the number of burned traders. I'd still prefer a lifting of the ban, as its circumvention is all too frequent, but since it's been serving its purpose, I'm no longer opposed to it.
2. Ditto our mod.
3. I'd say to delegate the responsibility of screening new members to a group of trustworthy members in order to let the mods live their lives.
4. There have still been some unfortunate incidents of severely one-sided deals.
5.1. Seems to be happening all the time now; it's a nice development.
5.2. Sounds excellent.
5.3. I'll be blunt - seems ridiculous. As jj pointed out more cogently than I ever could, these offers of freebies are one of the ways in which the SPF's economy regulates itself.
Personally, when I offer free items here, I usually prefix the offer with the clause "if nobody else offers you item xyz, ..."
One of the issues seems to be that newer traders are afraid of being cut out of the market. My take on this is that their ISO lists would likely have many items that the same established traders would be able to supply. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
OCAU_MIKLE
16-06-2006, 03:24
I think Rune trading is stuuuupid as many members like myself have lots of runes (ie 4 Lo's, 10 Vex's) so on and would make the SPF a easyer place for dupers to dupe mid-high runewords like HoTo, CtA ect.
wilypueo
16-06-2006, 05:03
@necrolemming: I guess I just have the opposite view. I think freebies damage the trading economy, assigning values of zero to items that have a definite value just by virtue of there being a demand--just holding onto an item indicates some sort of value. I feel like The Grinch. But oh well. And, again, there is always the giveaway thread.
@OCAU-MIKLE: It's not much harder to dupe high runes starting with a decent Hellforge drop or two. What, maybe an extra 15 minutes?
OT: Tracul I miss your old avatar . . . :prop:
BTW congrats on your Palship Tracul :thumbsup:
Oh, thanks you nex! I would like to take the oppurtunity to thank Elly for organizing the wonderful WC Prediction Game, South Korea for scoring 2 goals, Togo for scoring 1 goal and finally random.org :laugh:
Changed the avatar just for you wilypueo!
@O_M: Not many members have 4 Lo's and 10 Vex's :rolleyes: And as wilypueo had said, you don't need a HR to start while duping.
OCAU_MIKLE
16-06-2006, 15:22
Im saying that if i was to start trading my runes around like 50% of the SPF would have hoto's and that. Then the newbies that come in would be accepted alot more for having such a runeword. Just a thought
Crudesash68
16-06-2006, 16:22
Im saying that if i was to start trading my runes around like 50% of the SPF would have hoto's and that. Then the newbies that come in would be accepted alot more for having such a runeword. Just a thought
But you are already assuming that your traded runes will be duped; if the persons you are trading with are trustworthy, they won't dupe the runes, and 50% of the SPF will still be waiting for the HR runes.
To me, the bottom line on runes is, trade at your own risk, and if you trust someone to trade a Windforce or a Highlord's Wrath, you can trust them to trade an Ist or a Pul rune.
Steve
-Most problems with hacks and dupes are related to greed. Someone offers XgodlyITAM for a small price, and the vultures come swooping in and snatch it, only to find out afterwards they've been pwned. I've been there, and I bet anyone who's ever traded a bit has been there too. Greed, and greed only debilitates our judgement. Not much you can do about it.
-Monitoring people is a bad idea. Quies custodiet ipsos custodes? The vigilant are among us already, they do a pretty neat job, no need to make it official.
-Allow every single thing to be traded, but in the open. That is the best, and only way to ensure maximum safety.
minor issue:
-Ask Elly, or whoever is responsible for the 'realm you play on' part of your profile to include [SP RWM], [SP RRM], [SP RRM/RWM].
@necrolemming: I guess I just have the opposite view. I think freebies damage the trading economy, assigning values of zero to items that have a definite value just by virtue of there being a demand--just holding onto an item indicates some sort of value. I feel like The Grinch. But oh well. And, again, there is always the giveaway thread.
But value isn't determined by demand, that's not how an ecomomy works. Value is determined by supply and demand. Now, I disliked my economics class and don't wish to take this any further but just value is most definately not based on demand alone.
Case in point, the #1 item I twink to any new melee char (that i allow twinking on) is a Carthan's Seal. Does that mean they are highly valuable to me. No.
I'm just wondering why the "no trading of dupes" rule is a sacred cow and the "no trading of runes" can be circumvented without reprecussions if I do it under the table. Under this logic, why can't I just trade "dupes" via private communication too???
This is still simple, dupes are, by defenition, dupes. Runes are not by defenition illegit items, even by our forums standards. There is nothing wrong with owning them, the only current restriction is that they cannot be traded on the SPTF. Dupes on the other hand, would block your char from interacting in any way (MP, trades, tourneys). The difference is one items is banned from interaction with "SPF chars" while the other is not tradable on the SPTF but is perfectly fine on "SPF chars". (Note, I'm making the assumption here that the runes in question are legit.)
Steven Q Urkel
16-06-2006, 20:39
Im saying that if i was to start trading my runes around like 50% of the SPF would have hoto's and that. Then the newbies that come in would be accepted alot more for having such a runeword. Just a thought
Lets assume that you do have a green light to start trading your runes. Many of the folks who want that Vex or Lo will already have one, and the ones who do not will probably not be able to make you a fair offer for one. So imho, newbies flooding the market with HotO and Grief probably isn't going to happen.
and btw.......4 Lo??? 10 Vex???? gib r00nz plz. :laugh:
Crudesash68
17-06-2006, 04:56
Quies custodiet ipsos custodes?
This is my all time favorite quote.
Steve
sirpoopsalot
17-06-2006, 21:34
I seem to be a little late to this discussion, but I'll throw in my 2 El's too:
(1) Rune trading: This was the big topic in the old thread. This topic is open for debate, but Hrus and I get the final say on it, regardless.
First, I think we need a definitive answer on whether trading crafted items is acceptable. As nex pointed out (at least, I think it was nex), this seems rather incongruous in our current policy. If crafted items can be traded, then it makes sense that low-level runes can be traded too. If crafted are out, then even low level runes should be disallowed.
Personally though, I don't have problems with low-level runes (Sol and below), since they're not that different from PGems in value or rarity, but I'm against trading Shael+ runes.
However, I strongly disagree with the 'trusted rune traders list'. IMO, it's all or nothing and the same rules should apply to everyone.
Semi-OT: @Thadar - the reason (as I understand it) that AE and Kremtok banned rune trading wasn't entirely because they couldn't determine if runes were legit or not. Partially, they also banned it because they got tired of moderating threads that went something like:
player1:
FT: Ber, ISO: Stuff
player2:
I think you're a h4xx0r - prove it's legit.
<18 pages of flames later>
AE or Krem:
Guys and Gals, this is the 13th thread like this I've had to moderate this week, and I'm tired of wading through the flames. Three more temp bans, and still no answers on whether player1's Ber is legit or not. Thread Locked...
... @hrus, and Cattleya. If you do open up rune trading (especially high runes), you do realize that you'll probably get a significant increase in the occurence of my example scenario - does anyone want that?
(2) Auctions: A lot of the issues around auctions look to have worked themselves out naturally over time, and the move to the code blocks to keep them organized has allowed larger auctions to run pretty smoothly. So, do you think we need an auction guidelines section in the rules, and if you do, what would you like to see in it?
I don't think there's any significant problems with the current format.
(3) New Member Screening: If you want to take this demon on, I would strongly suggest reading through the old thread to get some ideas and a feeling for the debates that have already happened. Just keep in mind that Hrus and I do have lives outside of the forum as you think of ideas here.
Personally, I'm against this for the SPTF. When I started lurking/posting around here, I found three very l33t items within the first 2-3 months - a Lo rune, a perfect Scintillating Jewel of Fervor, and a Griffon's Eye. I horked the Lo in the frigid highlands, and found the Griffon's in the Pits, but I have no idea where I found the jewel - I was such a noob I didn't realise its value.
If I were a newcomer nowdays looking to trade any of those, I doubt I would recieve the acceptance that I did then, and I think that a screening process would further exacerbate that behaviour.
(note before you call me a h4x: - despite serious, dedicated MF runs in the 1-2 years since, I have probably only found 3 items of moderately comparible value/rarity: Stormlash, Schaeffer's and Mangs, and aside from hellforge my highest runes are 2xIst :wink:)
(4) Reasonable Offers: There were some complaints about unreasonable offers being made. I think that the pricecheck thread has actually helped this problem quite a bit.
I don't think there's much we can do outside of the current behaviour (i.e. someone speaking up and saying "hey playerX, IMO you're getting the short end of the stick") - we've already agreed that an absolute pricing system wouldn't work very well because 'value' is a very subjective term.
... Perhaps a note in the SPTF rules that encourages people to ask in the pricecheck thread if it's a 'fair' trade, but what can we do about people who don't read the rules?
(5) Mods: You may have noticed this topic was pretty much non-existant in the original thread. It turns out that it predated the SPF's move to Mod-friendly, so it wasn't an issue back then.
For simplicities sake, I want to go with the concept that mod tainted = modded, despite whether or not a mod is installed on the trader's computer. Then, there is never another reason to use the word tainted for a trade status, and things will be less confusing for newcomers. Feel free to continue to call yourself "tainted" in your own mind, though. :grin: I would like to see some clearly defined status tags set up. I would also like to see these required in the trade thread title. (The first test to see if new people read the rules.) This won't exclude more complicated things like ISO [1.11 SC RWM/RWM] FT [1.11 SC Vanilla] so don't worry about that.
I really like the idea of having every thread include the version/mods in the thread title. As one of the very few v1.10, non-RWM holdouts, there are about 5 other people here I'm eligible to trade with - and yet many of the most recent times that I've posted a trade attempt, I often get offers from people with 1.11 and/or RWM gear. I understand that I'm in a very small minority, and therefore I don't blame people for trying a trade and missing these details - but it would be nice if 40% of the traffic in my threads wasn't inelligible trade offers.
(declaration again - for the record: I have traded with RWM users, but all items acquired were for my grail, and have remained isolated in a separate stash. Usually once I find all of the items in a particular stash during non-RWM playing, I'll host a giveaway in the SPF with the RWM items).
Here are some of my ideas. (Translation: these will likely make their way into the new rules revision unless I get talked out of it. :grin: )
(1) The rules will include the suggestion to post an intro thread in the SPF, as well as the direction to read the FAQs in the SPF.
I think it should be required - not suggested (at least, reading the rules/FAQ).
(2) If someone has labeled their trade with a certain mod status, you may not post offers in their thread if you are trading items that involve mods they do not use. (This way Vanilla people can look over a RWM persons trade thread, and decide to make the plunge, but it's not presented to them in their own trade thread, and should cut down on accidental taint.)
absolutely - I have no problems with receiving a PM for these occasions. Of course, as per forum policy if you accept someone with a different mod via PM, please continue the trade negotiations openly in a public thread.
(3) No offering items for free when there are trade negoitations already in progress. Also, allow a post to be up for 24 hours before offering items for free. Otherwise, less item rich traders get cut out of the trade pool. (Perhaps we will wave the 24 hour rule for the Small ISO thread.) This also helps the generous people who do give items away in trade threads by setting up clear guidelines so they can be helpful without crossing a "bad manners" line.
Although some of the other 'old' traders feel differently, I like this idea a lot. I've had potential deals messed up because someone was being generous. The result was that someone got the items I was offering - for free - and I didn't get what I was looking for (:hanky: - I know, cry me a river, lol).
IMO, two traders each benefiting from a trade (no matter how 'small') is vastly preferable to one person gaining benefit because of anothers generosity. 24 hours is a reasonable amount of time to wait for free items.
I'm late into the debate, but just wanted to give a few views on rune trading.
D2 is addictive. Much of that addiction has to do with greed. We are constantly striving for better items, even though we know in our hearts that they are not necessary to complete the game, a mantra that is often repeated to a new player seeking some uber gear. This greed manifests itself in several ways. For the legitimate players it means doing hundred or thousands of Countess, Pindle or Meph runs until you find what you are looking for. For the less than legitimate players there is the temptation to dupe.
My concern is that, if rune trading is allowed across the board, runes will become a currency, as they are in the other trade forums. It is therefore relatively easy for a non-legit player to do a couple of hellforge runs, dupe a few runes and taint the traders with an "ISO: Titan's, FT:Um." Trading runes would become the norm, involved in every transaction, exposing everyone to the risks. No fingerprint on the rune, no way to tell if the same rune has been traded more than once.
My suggestion is, if rune trading is allowed, to restrict it to its own type. Perhaps higher level rune trading (>Shael?)could be restricted to a single thread and only one transaction at a time, along the lines of the small ISO thread. Runes (or runewords) would only be allowed to be traded for other runes or runewords. This would keep all the trades in the same place, making it easier for all the traders to keep an eye on the transactions. It would also keep all the other trading un-affected by the introduction of a new currency.
Personally, I think it is important that the high level rune trading that obviously goes on behind closed doors is out in the open. But I am concerned that runes become a general currency for all trades. I'm not a regular enough player to ever expect to be putting together any high level runewords (maybe I'll get lucky one day though). However it would be nice be able to trade a good Hell Forge drop into lower runes that I can make several mid level runewords with.
I think that rune trading should be allowed, because runes still get traded through e-mail and pms, but all of that can not be viewed publicly, so if rune trading was legal it would be done in this forum, publicly. And about trading runes or trading with new members: just use common sense and don't trade with people you don't trust.
Asmodeous
20-06-2006, 07:28
1). Rune trading. Well, im of both sides here. As you know, old members like myself do trade runes, doing so elsewhere and we do so elsewhere. Imho, rune trading here would be too hard to govern and deal with the brown stuff hitting the fan frequently when accusations fly. You know what im refering to when I say elsewhere and the differences between them and hence why I don't think it would work here.
2). Auctions. I was very happy the way Aman ran his Pgem auction fairly recently. The only issue was the end date which I think should be stated and not left up to the OP to decide when it is over. Much like the system used by ebay. I think that system should be implemented as the way to do it.
3). New member screening. No. Definetely no. I won't try and speak for Elly, but I would think that the intention is to attract new members to visit and post here and not introduce some scary jump thru hoops system for new comers when it comes to trading. Simply point out that "because of the ease of duping/hacking items in this game, it may take some time for other members to trust you when it comes to trading legit items" or something like that. It's the same with business. My company won't give a 30 day trade account to any joe blow who walks in off the street.
4). Reasonable offers. Well that is supply and demand. How do we actually know what an item is really worth? To somebody who like playing necromancers and sosers, a Schaefers hammer may not be worth that much to them but it would be next to priceless to a barb or paladin player. Supply & demand is what sets prices. In my home city, property prices and astronomical. Going up 15-20% per year and making the price of even a basic house un affordable for the young dink (double income no kids) couple. It is so wrong but as long as somebody is prepared to pay these crazy prices, then that is what a house is worth = what somebody is prepared to pay for it.
About all we really need is perhaps a guide to what things could be worth, but I think we already have a post along those line here already.
5). Mods. I think that has pretty much sorted itself as well. Simply state your game version and mod use status in trade posts. The term tainted to me refers to haxxing and duping. Not nice.
AlterEgo
23-06-2006, 07:34
I don't trade, so will not share my opinion on trading rules. :azn:
But I can tell you why rune trading was banned in the SPF two years ago - in June, 2004. poops had part of it right - rune trading (allowed at athe time) was the clear #1 problem in the SPF. HRs were offered for trade, and we had dozens of witch hunts, and a number of bans.
We had a 19-page discussion thread (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=187757) (some really interesting reading there if you have the time), and a 7-page advisory poll (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=191270). It was the desire of the forum members to allow some sort of rune trading.
The second reason I banned rune trading is that all of the other trade forums have "do not trade" lists. These lists include items that are known to be highly duped, so banning them made the forums cleaner. Runes were highly duped after 1.10 and the over-powered runewords were released. Banning them made good sense in that context (consistency with other forums).
Again, I have no opinion on what Cat and Hrus should do here. I don't trade, so my thoughts are really unimportant. But I dare say that there are a WHOLE lot less duped runes running through the forum than two years ago... :scratch:
Firstly, that was one interesting thread AE. Yes, I did read all 19 pages!
Secondly, a little about me so you can understand my point of view a little better:
I haven't traded before (but have been the grateful recipient of a few giveaways)
I am relatively new to these forums (partly why I haven't traded; I want to become known/trusted)
I play a lot with a house-mate so I may have a few more runes etc than you may expect (we have a shared ATMA stash)
I haven't the faintest idea about ilevels/the techyness of the game (I recently scared myself because I had two items with radically different ilevels that were both self-found; I found a SoJ very early on with my first character and almost sold it; I have two Facets and initially only kept them because they were Uniques)
I do use RWM because I feel Blizzard were cruel not to allow those words (not that I can make many of them!)
I have two SC Mat's (one solo, one with a friend) and I have a fledgling HC char (yes, separate stash)Onwards ....
(1) Rune trading Logically, if you allow trading, you must allow all trading. I have read the "allow El-Ith" and its varients and I do not believe that is sensible. In or out; pick one. If I trade 100 duped Els you can cube them up to a HR. So why ban the HR to begin with?
The whole issue of trading - runes or other items - runs on trust. If I trade, I rely on experienced members to say "that ilevel isn't cosher" or "you found a Tyreal's Might from Andy NM? Oh no you didn't." or "Isn't that the sixth Gul you've traded?" I appreciate that runes/pgems don't have fingerprints, but we either trust or we don't. My/our current rune count is in post seventeen (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=472213). If I came along saying "I have a Cham, I would expect to be asked where it dropped and when, because I AM NEWish.
I personally would choose not to trade with members unless they have been around a while; the choice is mine to make. I know respected members in the past have been caught with naughties and banned. I would rather take part in ANY trade in the open, knowing that:
a) a more techy person might catch something incongruous and pm me/a mod and
b) a mod could at least ensure that if I was stuffed, they can ban someone and prevent it happening to anyone else in the future.
Perhaps a trial period of three months to see how it goes and then review it?
(2) Auctions Definite start/end dates and mods should be included.
(3) New Member Screening I consider myself new even now and I think this must come down to personal choice. If a new member bids then I think it is not unreasonable to have "I would rather not trade with you at this time" responses. Similarly, no-one is forced to post in their ISO/FT list. A note mentioning this might happen in the sticky would be sufficient. I personally wouldn't take offence if this happened to me, and I would suggest anyone who does take offence just isn't mature enough to worry about.
(4) Reasonable Offers Pricecheck thread rules. :thumbsup: I play for enjoyment and have no idea about ED% quality etc. Yes I could look it up but at the moment, I don't care. This thread is great for noobs like me who may have a couple of spare items that they have seen on an ISO. Gives us an idea before we bid/offer and make fools of ourself.
(5) Mods Yes, yes, yes. Put version/core/mods in the title. It isn't rocket science. Just do it. For a while I had accepted RWM giveaways but was running vanilla myself. I would always declare my interaction in the MP forum, and I would suggest for the purpose of trade it would be "RWM". I guess some forumites would have said I was RWm then, even if I was using a vanilla char with no RWM-interaction giveaways; I certainly did. By all means add a line on the first line of the trade if you feel it's necessary but as we all have different ideas of 'taint' I would suggest we are either modded or unmodded. On a side note, a large note about accepted mods would be in order. Although I think only a very newbie would use the non-accepted mods and try to trade and they are more likely to be questioned, it cannot hurt.
Here are some of my ideas.
(1) The rules will include the suggestion to post an intro thread in the SPF, as well as the direction to read the FAQs in the SPF. Erm, I think the word suggestion was a mis-print; it should have been mandatory. In large letters. Purple, perhaps ...
(2) If someone has labeled their trade with a certain mod status, you may not post offers in their thread if you are trading items that involve mods they do not use. Are people really stupid enough to ... oh wait, yes, sorry ... Good idea. How about a list of traders with their mod status? Actually, I might add mine to my profile, if I can work out how.
(3) No offering items for free when there are trade negoitations already in progress. Also, allow a post to be up for 24 hours before offering items for free. Fair enough. Great idea.
Well that was an essay wasn't it? Please don't flame me, I am cute and cuddly...
sirpoopsalot
24-06-2006, 03:15
@Thyad - 100 El's = 1 Eth & change. It would literally take 100,000's of El's to make a medium rune like Dol. I understand that you were being figurative, and not literal, but duping little guys and cubing them just isn't worth the effort - you could run the countess just as effectively/quickly for anything below Ko/Fal (at a guess - I don't know the actual cut-off point) - and playing the game sounds more enjoyable than duping runes to me.
@AE, thanks for the full info - I'll read that some time since my summarized approximation was at best 3rd-hand-word-of-mouth understanding. :flip:
... and just a clarification of my opinion on auctions since I forgot about posting end dates, which should be mandatory, IMO. However, I think it should be acceptable to 'extend' an auction if some of the participants make a clear, fair case to why the auction should go on. Likewise, it also seems fair to prematurely end an auction if there is no participation for a prolonged length of time (4 days should be enough for all but the longest weekend :wink3:).
@mods: The revison will be legalized any soon?
@mods: The revison will be legalized any soon?
Cattleya prepared the new ruleset, she will probably post the rules soon and they will be open for discussion for some period...
Great, I'm waiting eagerly :smiley: thanks
-sal
Okay here's my schpeel...I too, like Thyiad am a relatively new member. I rarely get to play but am slowly making my way along. I have a (as in single)character that is in Hell at the moment. Once I get a few more I am bound to be doing loads of MFing. What worries me is that if I find something extremely valuable during my Baal runs or any other runs that I will be doing, how will I know if I can be trusted? I am definitely not an "old" member of the forum, and I only have one post in the SPTF. I hope to be able to establish myself there becuase I would like to be able to get something of worth for all those items that are useless to me. What in your people's opinion would be a good way for me to become a more trusted member of this community? There's quite a few people like me who have only a mere few hundred posts. We're in the middle ground of all this it seems.
More along the context of this thread, the rune discussion. I think that it should be allowed. All of them, yes even the HR's. As mentioned before, I think it is an excellent idea to be required or something in the Item Find thread. Screen shots will help a lot too, I'm assuming. Also as mentioned, many of the people who have these duped runes are lazy people or are very new. Wasn't it quite recently though that an "older" member of this community was banned for something? There are all sorts of exceptions like these. If we keep these trades in the open and have the well-established members of this community and/or mods overseeing these transactions, I think it would be a great new resource. Another worry has been mentioned already too, I don't want the currency of the SPTF to become runes. On the other trading forums, the Battle.net ones, it seems that you need to have runes to acquire almost anything exceptional and up. I really like the concept of trading items for items.
Ok I really can't think of another point to make that hasn't already been stated. Summary: Hopefully something will be worked out where we can trade at least some sort of runes. The screening for anything Pul and up or such things sounds like a good idea. Posting in the Item Find thread seems to be somewhat a necessity. Hang around the SPF and make friends, hang out for a while before trading. I hope I don't sound like a complete tool and this made some sense.
Good luck with coming up with something Cat and Hrus.
Alex
Hi,
I'd also like to throw in my two chippies. I'm a fairly new member, only a couple of months old. When I first joined the forum, my original intent was just to ask idiot noob questions in the SPF, that I knew would be answered clearly and concisely. I had no desire or intentions to trade. However, after searching and searching for a 4os sword, which I couldn't find, I decided to try and trade for one. Since that time I've become a trade addict. I wasn't around for any of the debacles that occurred here, but I read a lot before I joined, and read about a lot of them. I thought I would be ignored and not traded with, but I ponied up and posted asking for a 4 os sword. I wouldn't have done this if there were all sorts of hoops I had to jump through just as a "new member screening". I don't even know how you would go about doing this, but I hope it's not, as someone said earlier, surrounding the SPTF with ramparts and moats.
Anyhoo, on to the one thing I really wanted to comment upon. Rune Trading. I dearly hope this gets allowed. As I posted in the Item Find thread yesterday, I found an Ohm off of Pindle. I've had a couple of PM's asking me about trading it. I would much rather trade it in the forum, under the watchful eye of experienced traders who could say "No way, don't trade your Ohm for that". Or even better, put it up for auction or something, and see what I could get out of it. If you don't trust me, don't offer to trade for it, but rune trading should be allowed out in the open. It shouldn't be reduced to backdoor drug dealing.
I do understand that this will cause more work for the moderators. Of course, I don't want to be flamed/ridiculed for simply attempting to trade an Ohm. I think, however, that the experienced traders can spot questionable trades from a mile away.
And if you still wish to disallow HR trading, perhaps you will allow runes to be traded below Shael. It's just silly that if I offer to trade something socketed with a Shael, I have to waste a Hel just to unsocket it for the other person to put a Shael back in it.
Just my thoughts.
Cleyus
Cattleya
27-06-2006, 08:05
Here is the draft for the new rules. Keep in mind that this is a draft, and is not official. The rules here (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=284233) remain in effect. So, post your thoughts.
Single Player Trade Forum (SPTF) Rules
Welcome to the Single Player Trading Forum!
All members are expected to follow these rules at all times. Ignorance to these rules is not a valid excuse for breaking them. By no means does any of these rules supersede or replace the rules published by the site Administrators. You agreed to these rules when you registered, but if you need to be reminded of any of them, they can be found here (http://forums.diabloii.net/rules/). If you are found to be in violation of these rules, any Moderators or Administrator may take whatever disciplinary action he or she deems appropriate for the offense, up to and including a permanent ban.
Before you go any further, you need to get yourself up to speed on the Single Player Forum, where the people who trade in this forum hang out. The Single Player FAQ, Tips, & Character Guides (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=126808) is a great source of information for Single Player D2. You need to read all of the FAQs/Guides listed in the "About Our Forum" section before trading. You should also post an introduction in the Single Player Forum before trading (this is explained in the FAQs.)
Understanding the Risks of Trading
It is important when you decide to trade on these forums, that you realize that you need to be careful and make sure that you do some research before engaging in trading. The SPF and SPTF have a great community, but there will always be individuals who are not honest about they playing practices. You as the trader will need to be vigilant to protect yourself. Here are some important things to be aware of:
It is a good idea to look up the post history of a trading partner.
Quarantining items that you get from a trade (especially from new traders) can help save your other characters and items from being "tainted" if a problem is found later with the person you traded with. Keep these items in a separate stash for a period of time before moving them into your general stashes or onto your characters.
Remember that is something seems too good to be true, it probably is too good to be true, and is a scam. Use common sense when trading high end items. (In other words, don't let greed make you stupid.)
Keep in mind that some items (notably runes) do not have fingerprints. This makes them hard to track and hard to verify, and significantly increases the risk factor involved when trading them. You should only trade these items with people that you thoroughly trust. The nature of these items limits the actions that the moderators can take to check into these items.
General Rules
Show respect for everyone, whether they deserve it or not.
Be polite.
Do not post Off-Topic threads. Reasonable Off-Topic threads are permitted in the Single Player Forum (http://forums.diabloii.net/forumdisplay.php?f=3).
Do not ?bump? your thread. If someone is interested in your items, they will find them.
You may not post a trade offer in a thread if the items offered would change their trade status (as indicated in trade status tag in the thread's title.) Some examples would be:
If the person is listed as [1.10 HC Vanilla] you may not offer 1.11 items, SC items, or any items that are mod effected. You may offer 1.09 items, but make sure you indicate them as such.
If the person is listed as [1.11 SC RWM] you may not offer 1.11 RRM items, or 1.11 RRM/RWM items. You may offer vanilla items.
Some people have divided their characters and stashes into different statuses. If you do this, and the items you are trading are from a different status than those you are seeking, you should list that in your trade thread title something like this: FT [ 1.11 SC Vanilla] ISO [1.11 SC RRM/RWM] The rule is applied to the ISO part, so people may offer Vanilla, RRM, or RWM items in such a thread in exchange for the Vanilla items being offered by the thread starter.
You must always indicate your version and mod status to your trading partner.
Things You May Not Trade
Duped items
Items created using any third-party program (hacked items)
Bugged items
Any item that does not normally spawn in an unmodified Diablo 2 game
Any items found while using Maphack, or another similar program
Items found by characters that have been edited
Characters
Quest rewards (This applies to the quest reward itself. Items created or modified by a quest reward are fine.)
Any ?real life? items or services
Trader Profile Thread
This thread is set up to give people an overview of the various traders vital statistics. Traders should post a profile before they start trading or if their trade status changes. A summary will be maintained by the moderators in the first couple of posts. Instructions on what information to add is listed in the first post of that thread. Please be aware that this is simply a convinence, and does not replace making the proper trade declarations when trading.
New Trader Probation Period
Single Player trading is based on trust, and trust must be earned. Traders who are new the forum are considered to be under probation. While under this probation period, there are restictions what what items they can trade. The probation period ends after the trader has completed 25 trades and has been trading for at least three months in the Single Player Trade Forum.
The following items may not be traded by traders during the probation period:
Uniques: Stromlash, Nightwing's Veil, Schaefer's Hammer, Griffon's Eye, Crown of Ages, Death's Fathom, Astreons, Mangs, Death's Web, Tyrael's Might
Runes Io and Above
Charms: Fine charms of Vita, Steel charms of Vita, Shimmering Charms of Vita, Skill Charms of Vita
Jewels: Ruby Jewels of Fervor, Scintilating Jewels of Fervor, Vermillion Jewels of Fervor, Vermillion Jewels of Carnage, Ruby Jewels of Carnage
Rune Trading
Runes may be traded, with the following limitations and rules:
There is no restriction on trading runes Hel and below, or items containing these runes.
Runes Io to Ist (and items containing them) may be traded by people who are not in the New Trader Probation Period without restriction.
Runes Vex and above may be traded, but a quarantine period of 20 days is required. A minimum of 20 days must pass between when the rune is found and the rune is traded. The most likely place to document finding a rune is the Item Find Thread in the Single Player Forum, but other appropriate threads are okay as well, such a tourney threads.
Auctions
Auctions should follow these basic guidelines:
An end time and date must be specified. Auctions may end early if there is no new bidding for a couple of days (the person running the auction should list this possibility in the initial post. They may be extended if circumstances require it (such as forum downtime) but this should be done sparingly.
The auctioneer needs to specify the type of items they will accept as bids. The auctioneer decides the value of offers to determine who is winning.
It is a good idea to keep your auction up to date with the current bids. Posting a warning 24 hours before the end of the auction is also a good idea, as time zones can be confusing.
Keep auction lengths reasonable. In most cases, no more than a week should be needed. Auctions that drag on will frustrate the people looking for items.
You may only run one auction thread at a time. When one auction ends, you may start another.
Trade Status Tags
Trade threads must always include a status tag in the title. This lets people know what version you are using, as well as what mods you use. Make sure that you read and understand The SPF, Game Mods, and You (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=468882) before trading to make sure you use the appropriate tags. The basic format for these tags are [Version Pool Mods]. Here is a list of common tags, I will only list the 1.11 SC ones, but appropriate version and SC/HC status can be subsitued as appropriate:
[1.11 SC Vanilla] - Items for trade are 1.11 (or 1.11b), softcore, and have not been "tainted" by mods.
[1.11 SC RRM] - Items for trade are 1.11 (or 1.11b), softcore, and the items were found using RRM or interacted with RRM items or characters. They did not interact with any other mods.
[1.11 SC RWM] - Items for trade are 1.11 (or 1.11b), softcore, and the items were found using RWM or interacted with RWM items or characters. They did not interact with any other mods.
[1.11 SC RRM/RWM] - Items for trade are 1.11 (or 1.11b), softcore, and the items were found using RWM and RRM or interacted with RWM and RRM items or characters. They did not interact with any other mods.
[1.11 SCL Vanilla] - These items were found by characters following the rules of the 1.11 ladder, and do not use or interact with ladder RWM users.
[1.11 SCL RWM] - These items were found by characters following the rules of the 1.11 ladder, and were found using the RWM or they have interacted with RWM items or characters. This is the only mod approved for ladder play.
How to Post a Trade List
Each member is permitted to post his own trade thread. Your thread should include, in its title, the date that it was created and the appropriate status tag (see the previous section.) In your post, you must list the item or items that you are searching for by name, as well as what you are offering in return. Be as specific as possible; this will help ensure that you get what you are looking for in the trade.
Item lists are permitted and encouraged; however, you are encouraged to use space-saving measures where appropriate. If possible, separate items by type or function to make a specific item easier to find, and alphabetize lists whenever practical. Rather than listing each item in a separate line, use a vertical line (shift and \ key: it looks like | ) to separate item names. Remember that the easier your list is to navigate, the more likely it is that you will get what you are looking for and have a positive trading experience. You may also want to use Flavie (or Fara) to post your trade list. You will need a place to host the web page in order to use this option.
Trade negotiations should take place within the thread. This measure will keep everyone honest in their trade offerings, and if there is a problem, is more easily traceable than e-mails or Private Messages. If you choose not to post e-mail addresses or IP addresses, you may exchange the same via PM, but only after the trade deal has been made. See the section below titled, ?Making the Exchange.?
A sample trade list:
Thread Title: Cattleya's Trade Thread 17-June-2006 [1.11 SC Vanilla]
In Search Of (ISO):
Griswold?s Honor | Griswold?s Redemption | Heaven?s Light | The Stone of Jordan | Tal Rasha?s Guardianship | Warshrike
For Trade (FT):
Armor
Auldur?s Advance] | Auldur?s Stony Gaze | Atma?s Wail | Black Hades | Blackthorn?s Face| Credendum | Duriel?s Shell | Goulhide (ethereal) | Gravepalm |Guillaume's Face | Haemosu?s Adamant x2 | Head Hunter?s Glory | Hellmouth | Homunculus | Immortal King?s Detail | Infernostride | Iron Pelt | Lava Gout| M?avina?s Embrace | M?avina?s Icy Clutch | M?avina?s Tenet | Rite of Passage | Rockstopper| Shaftstop (empty socket) | Skin of the Flayed One | Souldrainer | Superior Balrog Skin (4 Sockets, +12% Durability) | Tal Rasha?s Horadric Crest | The Spirit Shroud | Valkyrie Wing | Venomgrip | Viscerataunt | Whistan?s Guard | Wolfhowl
Weapons
Arioc?s Needle | Arm of King Leoric (Ethereal) | Auldur?s Rhythm | Blackhand Key | Blade of Ali Baba | Bloodletter | Bloodmoon | Bonehew | Boneslayer Blade | Carin Shard | Culwen?s Point | Dangoon?s Teaching | Dark Clan Crusher | Deathbit | Earthshaker | Eschuta's Temper | Felloak | Feral Claws (3 Sockets, +2 to Venom, +2 to Death Sentry) | Flamebellow | Fleshrender | Ginther?s Rift | Gravespine | Hand of Blessed Light | Heart Carver | Heaven's Light | Hexfire | Hone Sudan (Amn) | Jade Talon | Lycander?s Aim | Messerschmidt's Reaver | Pierre Tombale Couant | Plague Bearer | Razor?s Edge | Razorswitch | Ribcracker | Spellsteel | Spineripper x2 | Stormeye | Stormspike [|Stoutnail | Superior Suwayyah (3 Sockets, +14% Durability) | Sureshrill Frost | The Atlantean | The Gavel of Pain | The Iron Jang Bong | The Salamander | The Vile Husk | Thunderstroke | Torch of Iro | Widowmaker | Wizardspike
Charms
Fanatic Grand Charm | Natural Grand Charm | Spiritual Grand Charm of Thunder (+1 to Shape-Shifting Skills, 1-10 Lightning Damage)
Jewels
Ambergis Jewel (Lightning Resist +16%) | Carmine Jewel of Carnage (+22 to Max Damage) | Jewel of Carnage (+14) | Jewel of Fervor | Jewel of Prosperity (10% mf) | Realgar Jewel (23%) |] Realgar Jewel of Joyfulness (22% ED, +4 to Minimum Damage) | Jewel of Thunder (Adds 1-72 lightning damage) | Realgar Jewel of Wrath (26%, +9 to Maximum Damage) | Silver Jewel of Hope (+11 to Life, +56 to Attack Rating)
Replying to a Trade List
When replying to a trade list, state simply which item or items you are offering, and in return for what. Be as specific as possible. If you require more information on an item being offered, ask politely and directly.
You may ask for an ATMA readout on any item, at any time, for any reason, and the poster should provide it for you. See the section below titled, ?Use of the ATMA Program.?
DO NOT post a reply that accuses another member of any type of misconduct! If you think that an item or a person is suspect, bring it to the attention of a Moderator. More information on this is provided below, in the section titled, ?Reporting Suspect Persons / Items.?
A sample reply:
I offer Heaven?s Light in exchange for Widowmaker and M?avina?s Embrace.
Will you please post the ATMA readout on your Thunderstroke?
Trade Values
There is no ?currency? in Single Player trading. Our economy is a barter system, where values are relative only to the individuals need for an item. Thus it is entirely up to you to determine if a trade offer is fair or not.
If you see a trade going on that does seems one sided, and the people involved do not seem aware of the rarity/usefulness of the items in question, you may politely bring the subject up and provide the appropriate information about the items in question. Just remember that it is up to the individuals to ultimately decide how they feel about the trade. Traders are encourages to use the price check thread to get a rough idea of the value of items.
Making the Exchange
There are three basic ways to execute a trade:
1. Make a mule character or ATMA stash, and e-mail it as an attachment to the person with whom you are trading. After the trade has been executed, meaning both people have their requested items, you must DELETE the item/mule/stash from your computer. This prevents dupes from being created and re-traded If you choose to post an e-mail address, you do so at your own risk!
2. Meet the person with whom you are trading in a TCP/IP game, and make the exchange using the in-game trade window. If you choose to post an IP address, you do so at your own risk!
3. Meet the person with whom you are trading in an Open Battle.net game, and make the exchange using the in-game trade window. This method is discouraged, as the individuals who are trading will not have control over the mods being run by the host. It would likely be better to request that someone host a game to allow the trading in the SPF MP thread.
Giving Items Away in Trade Threads
Do not offer items for free when there are trade negoitations already in progress. Also, allow a post to be up for 24 hours before offering items for free. (The 24 waiting period does not apply to the Small ISO thread.)
Reporting Suspect Persons / Items
Unfortunate though it is, there will be times when you encounter a dishonest person and/or an illegitimate item. The only correct course of action is to use the ?Report This Post? button. This also applies to any circumstance in which any forum or site rule has been broken. Be sure to provide an adequate description of the problem when you report the post to a moderator. You may politely request an explanation in such a situation, but only after the post has been reported. The Moderator or Administrator who responds to your report will examine the post that you reported, and then question the individual responsible for the post. DO NOT, under any circumstances, be hostile, accusatory, disrespectful, or otherwise negative to any individual in this forum, regardless of the wrong he may have done.
Use of the ATMA Program
ATMA is the acronym for A Tenshi Muling Application. There is an ATMA FAQ (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=265765) posted in the Single Player Forum. Though it is not a requirement, all members are highly encouraged to use ATMA as their primary muling program, because it displays & reports item fingerprints. These random letter and number combinations are unique to individual items in the game. This fingerprint, along with the other information provided in an ATMA readout, can assist any member in determining the legitimacy of an item. As previously stated, any member may request that you post the full ATMA readout of any item that you are offering for trade. Do not be offended by this; it is standard practice in Single Player trading. In fact, you will likely improve your reputation by consistently and without argument posting ATMA readouts for specific items when requested.
Mac users do not have access to ATMA, and so will not be able to provide ATMA readouts. When trades occur between mac and PC users, the PC user should post the ATMA readouts of the items they recieved from the mac user after the trade is completed.
Use of Mods
Some players enjoy D2 game mods (e.g. Red Rune Mod, FE Mod, Eastern Sun). Trading items found while playing them is generally acceptable, as long as you fully disclose the game mod in your posts. You should read The SPF, Game Mods, and You (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=468882) before trading. There is one major exception. ANY items from "drop mods" are prohibited, because it affects the rest of us by diluting the trading pool. Any item found while using Maphack is also prohibited.
If you question whether you may trade because of your mod use, send an e-mail or Private Message to a Moderator.
The thing with high rune trading is that I know that if I found a high rune by myself I would never trade it. No offense to anyone who wants to trade their high runes but seriously, all the items you are going to get out of the trade you will eventually obtain after some amount of running pindle or baal. On the other hand, that Ohm is incredibly hard to re obtain.
Also, I mean part of the joy of single player for me is that I can play basically on a realm with no duped items, and I feel that allowing high rune trading will make it so easy for people to just say "OMG you wont believe me but I found a Ber the other day... want to trade?" I mean sure its probably true most times but WHY would you ever want to trade a hr? I mean most runes (other than sur/cham) can be used in extremely useful runewords by themselves: Cta, HotO, CoH, GRIEF <-the grail of all melee weapons and so on so its not a big waste when you can't trade a rune.
And no offense, anyone who'se found a jah rune should mathmatically have most of the items in the game seeing how rare it is. Of course I am biased because I don't have any of those said high runes.
Anyways its my thought that the trade forum should be closed and moved to a sticky in the spf one; the spreading out of stuff seems to be detrimental and in any case, although I actively trade now, I realized after trading for a while that trading in the spf should probably be used to get those one or two items you really want, not to buy full equipment for your char, to maintain the spirit of single player. (yes I'm a hypocrite but since its here i'll use it).
Edit: I just saw the mod post (i spent a long time writing this so I'll read it then make my comments)
A little disapointed with the allowing of high rune trading but wtver. I'm glad I don't have any of the items on the list that I can't trade, but quick clarification question, can I still trade for those items?
Also, I mean part of the joy of single player for me is that I can play basically on a realm with no duped items, and I feel that allowing high rune trading will make it so easy for people to just say "OMG you wont believe me but I found a Ber the other day... want to trade?" I mean sure its probably true most times but WHY would you ever want to trade a hr? I mean most runes (other than sur/cham) can be used in extremely useful runewords by themselves: Cta, HotO, CoH, GRIEF <-the grail of all melee weapons and so on so its not a big waste when you can't trade a rune.
Well, the thing is, to make a CTA I need an IST rune (already have the Mal). As you said, these things don't grow on trees, so I'm gonna be searching for a while.
But I guess you're right, I just checked the drop odds on an Ohm in Atma, and that's ridiculous. I'm not gonna trade it, it can just sit there until I find an IST.
Edit: Yea, I would also like some clarification. Do I need to close my ISO list because I'm looking for those items, or do I just need to take my Shaeffer's off of my FT list?
Cattleya
27-06-2006, 09:33
Edit: Yea, I would also like some clarification. Do I need to close my ISO list because I'm looking for those items, or do I just need to take my Shaeffer's off of my FT list?For the moment, you don't need to do anything, since the old rules are still in effect while these are discussed. :smiley:
The limits will go both ways, so no FT or ISO for those items. We tried to come up with a list that wasn't too restrictive, but hit the most problematic items. If you think something is on the list that shouldn't be (or something should be added) speak up an make your case.
Well, I have no case to make, but I have another question if you don't mind.
Obviously, I'm still in the "New Trader Probation Phase, so if I wanted to trade the Ohm I found, I couldn't. However, when you say "document" the find, does that just mean to post it in the item find thread, or do I need pictures a long with it? I just posted the readout and where I found it.
If I still had it in three months (I guess it's probably more like 2.75 months now), and I wanted to trade it, that thread would be long gone since they make new ones every once in a while.
Cattleya
27-06-2006, 09:51
Obviously, I'm still in the "New Trader Probation Phase, so if I wanted to trade the Ohm I found, I couldn't. However, when you say "document" the find, does that just mean to post it in the item find thread, or do I need pictures a long with it? I just posted the readout and where I found it.Screenshots always make people feel better, but they aren't necessary. The idea is that someone can't suddenly "find" (in other words dupe) a rune and make a quick profit on it, since they will have to wait to trade it. Not a perfect solution, but it adds a level of protection.
If I still had it in three months (I guess it's probably more like 2.75 months now), and I wanted to trade it, that thread would be long gone since they make new ones every once in a while.The thread will still exist, even if it sinks to page 137. The search for posts by user function can be quite useful in these cases.
superficial
27-06-2006, 10:11
hi, i've read through most of the rules and i'd agree to them all. Good work :thumbsup:
just a note: i agree with jantia that if anyone finds a HR, chances are they'll keep it locked up for life, unless if Death's web or Pala skiller with 30+life are for trade.
i have a question regarding auctions: after the auction ends, is the auctioneer obligated to give the auctioned items to the highest bidder? or can he/she decide to cancel the auction?
I like those rules. Transparency, a list of traders... yes, good work Cattleya+Hrus :)
And no offense, anyone who'se found a jah rune should mathmatically have most of the items in the game seeing how rare it is. Of course I am biased because I don't have any of those said high runes.
I've got a Sur, 2 Guls, but no elite armour or weaponry to speak of. The game can be highly erratic.
Sounds good, although the 25 trades for a new player sounds a bit high. I'm not positive I've made 25 trades yet. Then again, its only a few high end items you are restricted from so no biggie.
@jantia: while I probably would never trade away any hr, their rarity doesn't imply you've found everything less rare first. I found my first Ohm while I still had hundreds of items to go in my grail. Hrs just happen.
Ohomemgrande
27-06-2006, 17:42
Sounds good, although the 25 trades for a new player sounds a bit high. I'm not positive I've made 25 trades yet. Then again, its only a few high end items you are restricted from so no biggie.
Agreed, it does sound a bit high. I currently do not trade but envision myself trading at some future point. My current plans are to complete a self-found grail but also have a "temporary viewing case" of those elusive items, obviously obtained via trade. Since they'll probably be the "high-end" stuff, I guess I should start engaging in some starter trades now. I can see both sides of the fence here. The casual trader may be put off but I think this does add a level of "trust-building" to the trader's pool. What do the traders think of the 25-trade??
My other comment is regarding auctions. I would sugest that if an auction is to end early, there should still be a reccommended 24 hour warning. We all know that most of the action in an auction happens at the end of the bidding period (at least in ebay) :smiley:
Otherwise, everything is pretty clear.
-Jason
Well done Cat & Hrus.
I think the whole rules set is excellent EXCEPT for the New Trader Probation.
I personally feel that 25 trades and 3 months trading history is a bit excessive. If a potential tradee said to me "Well, I know you have been on the forums (IE forums.diabloii.net) for five months or so, but I would rather not trade yet." I would say fine; trader isn't happy fair enough. But this potential ruleset means I HAVE to get upto 25 trades and trade for three months in the SPTF for stuff I don't really want.
I would only trade for something special at the moment. So I may be around the forums (main site) for a year or more but never traded; for that I would be penalized under this ruleset.
I do appreciate that new traders are generally suspect but can I ask you to look again at this Probationary rule? By the time I want to trade for something special, my Mat'd (and maybe one day Pat'd) chars might have found me seven Tyreal's Mights and other desirable goodies. And I might have won the lottery ....
:thumbsup: Those rules sound extremely awesome. Nice job mods!
The only things that irk me are the probationary period. Like others have said, it seems extremely long. What about at least 3 months of membership in the SPF? I've been in the SPF for about 3/4 of a year, but have only just recently even looked at the SPTF. 25 trades also seems a bit high. Maybe around 10...? I think it would be best to consult with the avid traders of this forum what an appropriate time and trade amount should be necessary.
The suggestion about auctions also sounds very good. A 24 hour notice would be a safe amount of time I think.
Thanks for all the hard work mods.
Alex
The thing with high rune trading is that I know that if I found a high rune by myself I would never trade it. No offense to anyone who wants to trade their high runes but seriously, all the items you are going to get out of the trade you will eventually obtain after some amount of running pindle or baal. On the other hand, that Ohm is incredibly hard to re obtain.
The high end runewords tend to get handed down from one player to another and a number of players have acquired a vast amount of rune wealth this way. To these players any HR is fairly useless since they already have all the runewords worth having, and coupled with the HF rushers who bring in a steady stream of runes in the Ohm/Lo range, I don't think there'll be a shortage of sellers.
Cattleya
27-06-2006, 23:15
Without the probation period, there will be no high rune trading. I just don't want the headache. Of course, I'm betting it wouldn't be controversial if we hadn't added the non-rune items to the list. :wink3: But these high end items have also caused their share of problems.
Here is my reasoning for the numbers I picked for the probation period. I do want this to be a big hurdle. It can take a while for problems to be found. I did go through and count up the trades of a few people to get a feel for how reasonable that number was. (That's the main reason it took me so long to get the draft posted.) The restricted list isn't really that long, especially when you don't count the runes, which no one can trade right now.
When new traders post high end items, it has a high potential to lead to those posts with innuendos and almost flames that are generally unpleasant.
On the other side, when a new trader is bidding on a high end item, even if the person has the high end item decides that they don't want to trade with the person, other potential bidders from the auction may have already been scared off by the high bid from the new player.
As to the suggestion of a 24 hour warning for auctions ending early, that sounds like a good idea. I'll add that into the rules.
whichever
27-06-2006, 23:30
About the Vex and above runes, what about the cubed ones? I mean, I'm not going to post everyone I find an um off the forge... so if I cube those, and get a, say, Vex. Does the 20 days rule apply? Technically it's not a new rune... and it's pretty hard to monitor if everyone claims that they cubed up their Ohms and Vexs and such.
While I appreciate your point of view, Cat, I do not see your reasoning being fully justifiable to persons who have been on this forum for many months (IE more than me) but not necessarily trading.
No, I wouldn't trade for a high end item with someone who has just arrived on the forum, but I might if that person had been around (in the SPF) for six months but never traded. I would ask the frequent traders here; would you trade one of the 'restricted charms' for example in those circumstances?
I cannot believe that a new person's high bid would scare off potential new bidders. I do believe that potential bidders would check a thread again to see if a "I would rather not accept your bid yet" had been posted.
I do understand that you and Hrus will be the ones on the sharp end if something goes belly up. If your heart is set on those rules, then there is nothing more I can do. You asked for our opinions. Those are mine.
Here is my reasoning for the numbers I picked for the probation period. I do want this to be a big hurdle. It can take a while for problems to be found. I did go through and count up the trades of a few people to get a feel for how reasonable that number was. (That's the main reason it took me so long to get the draft posted.) The restricted list isn't really that long, especially when you don't count the runes, which no one can trade right now.
Cool, much more research than my wild guessing. Since its been thought out that carefully and considering the improvements over how it is now. Sounds great.:thumbsup:
AlterEgo
28-06-2006, 01:33
Great work Cat & Hrus! :thumbsup: Revisions have been needed for a long time.
Four comments. Remember I don't trade...but if I decided to...
1) I would be on probation? Gak! I suppose I could make 23 trades (I made a single trade a couple years back) before offering up my Lo for some high end gear. But...I'm on probation? Durf, and so many others too? :shocked:
2) Yes, that Lo. It was given to me by a 100% trusted member of the SPTN (the forum set up by a buch of "old farts" :rolleyes: ) in 2004. It was never declared in the SPF, other than by my statements in a couple threads along the way. It is tradeable? My point is about "old" runes, especially if acquired in other places over the years. Are certain other places ok?
Or, what if I found it in 2002, and my "declaration thread" was eaten by the squid?
3) What about runes in the SPF giveaway thread, or for tourney prizes? (Remember FB's Zod?) It's the natural next question.
4) Use of mods. What about PlugY?
Steven Q Urkel
28-06-2006, 02:51
Either I'm reading this wrong, or there may be a typo here.
If the person is listed as [1.11 SC RWM] you may not offer 1.11 RRM items, or 1.11 RRM/RWM items. You may offer vanilla items.
So, you're saying that if someone is RWM 'tainted,' you can only offer to trade vanilla items??? Now thats just nutters.
And imho, gg on allowing rune trades.
The way I see it, the point is that you may offer vanilla items ("less" modded) but not RRM ("different" modded) or RWM/RRM ("more" modded) items.
EDIT: I'm assuming that offering RWM items is acceptable as well in this case
Cattleya
28-06-2006, 09:21
1) I would be on probation? Gak! I suppose I could make 23 trades (I made a single trade a couple years back) before offering up my Lo for some high end gear. But...I'm on probation? Durf, and so many others too? :shocked:
2) Yes, that Lo. It was given to me by a 100% trusted member of the SPTN (the forum set up by a buch of "old farts" :rolleyes: ) in 2004. It was never declared in the SPF, other than by my statements in a couple threads along the way. It is tradeable? My point is about "old" runes, especially if acquired in other places over the years. Are certain other places ok?
Or, what if I found it in 2002, and my "declaration thread" was eaten by the squid?These are interesting points. Hrus and I are aware that these are not perfect solutions (and have already batted around the problems you bring up) but no solution is ever perfect. We are still IMing back and forth as ideas and input come. So, if anyone has any ideas about better ways to handle this, we would love to hear them. (After all, the point is to make it so the trade forum works the best it can for the community.) If anyone has ideas to improve on what we have, or something else entirely, we would love to hear it. Nothing is set in stone yet. :smiley:
3) What about runes in the SPF giveaway thread, or for tourney prizes? (Remember FB's Zod?) It's the natural next question.The current rules (including the rune ban) will not change for giveaways and tourney prizes, at least for the time being.
4) Use of mods. What about PlugY?PlugY = bad will get clarified in the rules. :smiley:
Either I'm reading this wrong, or there may be a typo here. So, you're saying that if someone is RWM 'tainted,' you can only offer to trade vanilla items??? Now thats just nutters.
I figured that the RWM items being allowed was assumed. I'll clarify that part in the rules.
These are interesting points. Hrus and I are aware that these are not perfect solutions (and have already batted around the problems you bring up) but no solution is ever perfect. We are still IMing back and forth as ideas and input come. So, if anyone has any ideas about better ways to handle this, we would love to hear them. (After all, the point is to make it so the trade forum works the best it can for the community.) If anyone has ideas to improve on what we have, or something else entirely, we would love to hear it. Nothing is set in stone yet. :smiley:
Just a thought. Why don't you do an either/or sort of thing. Either you need to have 25 trades with 3 months in the forums, or you need to have been around the forums for 6 months (or a year or whatever). This way people who have been around forever like Alterego, who have never traded, but suddenly feel the desire to do so, can trade, while you still ensure that the new traders have a strong probationary period.
AlterEgo
28-06-2006, 09:50
These are interesting points. Hrus and I are aware that these are not perfect solutions (and have already batted around the problems you bring up) but no solution is ever perfect. We are still IMing back and forth as ideas and input come. So, if anyone has any ideas about better ways to handle this, we would love to hear them. (After all, the point is to make it so the trade forum works the best it can for the community.) If anyone has ideas to improve on what we have, or something else entirely, we would love to hear it. Nothing is set in stone yet. :smiley:
Yes, criticism without suggestions is hollow. So maybe some sort of "review team" for both of these problems. Maybe senior members of the forum can apply for exemption to the probation rule. The team reviews and decides to grant the exemption or not. Their decisions are final. Same for "old" runes. Members can apply to have certain runes exempted from the declaration rule, and the review team gives a thumbs up or a thumbs down. Again the determinations are final.
Who's on the review team? I suggest both mods, and 2-3 highly respected, senior members, preferably who have traded along the way. They should also have knowledge about other D2 forums where runes have been traded all along, and might recognize names of forum members and their reputations - maybe can even track down and verify these claims.
Not perfect. It all sounds so bureaucratic! But it's an idea.
The current rules (including the rune ban) will not change for giveaways and tourney prizes, at least for the time being.
PlugY = bad will get clarified in the rules. :smiley:
As I anticipated. :smiley: Good calls IMO.
Just a thought. Why don't you do an either/or sort of thing. Either you need to have 25 trades with 3 months in the forums, or you need to have been around the forums for 6 months (or a year or whatever). This way people who have been around forever like Alterego, who have never traded, but suddenly feel the desire to do so, can trade, while you still ensure that the new traders have a strong probationary period.
Excellent idea. That I could support. I would still like the rules to say that traders have the right (without bias) to refuse to trade with another member.
I'm not sure where I stand when it comes to rune trading, the only form of it I would have liked to have when it happens once in a while is when trading an item already socketed with a rune. Other than that I don't think I will trade any runes. With the risks of trading runes I think it's better without them :S
I think the first draft of the rules looks really good! :thumbsup:
I read through the rules and I like what I see. The auction part contains everything I'd do myself, and I don't think you should add the rule that one is obliged to trade an item for the end-of-auction price (in response to superficial's question). Common sense people!
If you don't list any reserve in your auction rule set, you will have to trade away a Stormlash for two jewels (bloody not likely though).
The new rules contain enough hurdles to overcome before trading for an item not included in your d00p pack, which is good. A bit bureaucratic, yes. But I hope these new rules will entice more SPFers to try trading here. Gogo capitalism!
The only new rule I'd like to see changed is the probation rule.
The 25 trades limit will throw up a barrier for the non-trading long-time SPFers who would benefit greatly from trading away a Stormlash. As other people suggested, a 6 month history of good behavior or a 3 month 25-trades period would serve the same d00per deterring purpose.
As I see, a probation review team won't be necessary. A 6 month period of active SPF membership should be evidence enough to drop the probation status. Or am I naive and are d00pers willing to post actively for 6 months?
[/OT: Is there any way to view more than 250 posts you made? I tried counting my trades, but anything before May doesn't show. I blame my itchy reply button finger...]
I'll chime in just briefly.
The new rules sound just dandy, though I think allowing rune trades will create headaches for both Cat and Hrus.
As far as the probation period goes, I like the fact that you are making it a hurdle for newcomers to jump through. I think for those people like AE who have been here forever but don't trade, the new rules will seem a bit prohibitive. 25 trades can be an awful lot, especially now if one is vanilla or RRM only and has a very limited pool of traders with which to conduct business.
Why not have the probation period start for newcomers (join dates June '06-on) who start when the new rules go into effect, and all others can be grandfathered in? I would hate to not be allowed to trade a high end item with the 4 or 5 people who I can trade with (RRM only) because I'm stuck at 18 trades or whatnot. Sure we could trade Isenhart's for Cathan's back and forth until we get to the 25 trade threshold, but that seems rather silly.
Cattleya
28-06-2006, 20:02
Thyiad - Good idea. I'll add a note about the right not to trade to the understanding the risks of trading section.
AJK - When I was going through, I listed by thread, and then just used my browsers search function to pick out the name I was looking for to zero in on the posts. That should solve the 250 post problem. (Since then it will turn up a max of 250 threads, which is a lot of threads. :smiley: )
@All - I'm seeing some interesting ideas about the probation period. I'm going to hold off commenting for now, so as not to stifle the discussion on it.
I've also added a poll asking about auctions. I'm torn on the issue, and figured it might help to get a quick snapshot of how everyone felt about it.
I voted yes on the obligation to sell in an auction, as I said in my previous post, but I want to elaborate.
There are two kinds of auctions:
1. You have a single high-valued item and are auctioning it for items in a (hopefully extensive) ISO list.
2. You are auctioning off a set of items for a large amount of gems/jewels/runes (new rules?).
In auction type 2 I feel that the seller is obliged to sell for the closing price, no matter how low. If you list a reserve price, OK, cool, but if you don't it's your risk. The same the other way around too. A bidder is equally obliged to pay the closing price in order to keep things fair for the other bidders. A bid retraction may happen, but not wanting the item at the end of an auction anymore is a no-no. These auctions are in my eyes a serious business, also because they involve more than two people.
Auction type 1 is another matter. If I were to auction my [insert shiny TC87], I'd like to see a bunch of nice items in return. If, because of mod status/restrictive ISO list, the end bid is unsatisfactory, there should be no obligation to sell.
In short, I voted yes, but hope to have made clear that that was for type 2 auctions only.
Auction type 1 is another matter. If I were to auction my [insert shiny TC87], I'd like to see a bunch of nice items in return. If, because of mod status/restrictive ISO list, the end bid is unsatisfactory, there should be no obligation to sell.
That's easily enough to resolve, call it a trade, not an auction. As with all trades you are perfectly within your rights to wait for a trade that you like or let multiple traders continue to "up" each other. Just don't call it an auction if that's not really what it is.
As for the probation period. Its easy enough to come up with a special case clause. A simple 6 months or an extra month for every 5 trades lacking. Regardless, I think its going to need to come under review. May d2.net members play bnet and occasionally pop in the SPF. They may have an old join date and a thousand posts but still be as new to the SPF and our quirks as someone who joined yesterday.
Regardless of the special case "guideline", I think each special case needs to come under review, either that of a mod, a review comittee, or multiple votes like the ladders. In the case of a comittee or multiple votes, they should be from someone who is not bidding/trading for the item in question.
There are two kinds of auctions:
1. You have a single high-valued item and are auctioning it for items in a (hopefully extensive) ISO list.
2. You are auctioning off a set of items for a large amount of gems/jewels/runes (new rules?).
In auction type 2 I feel that the seller is obliged to sell for the closing price
##
Auction type 1 is another matter. If ## the end bid is unsatisfactory, there should be no obligation to sell.
## denotes part of post deleted for conciseness.
I completely agree with this, although my poll vote may not reflect that. (Must read properly before clicky.) :embarassed:
simple 6 months or an extra month for every 5 trades lacking. Regardless, I think its going to need to come under review. May d2.net members play bnet and occasionally pop in the SPF. They may have an old join date and a thousand posts but still be as new to the SPF and our quirks as someone who joined yesterday.
Again, I think traders will know and recognize those people who frequent the SPF as opposed to "day-trippers". If you aren't happy, it is your right not to trade, to impose conditions or do a Dick and Jane "Where is your intro post, do you use these mods or any others, have you MP'd with modded chars" etc.
There has to come a point where you call a halt on the hoops or you will be in the position of x months or x trades or x months plus committee plus x posts in the SPF. :flip:
I think six months in the SPF is enough of a hoop. If you still aren't happy then don't trade; the only time this could cause an issue is under AJK's scenario two. The only way I can think of withdrawing from a traded in that scenario is a very high (impossible) reserve to maintain the ability to withdraw from the trade.
Do experienced traders think those restricted items are likely to be the auction type?
necrolemming
29-06-2006, 10:31
Lemming likes the new rules.
:)
Re: Auctions.
I prefer enforced trading.
A trader will probably be posting a list of stuff he/she is ISO, due to the lack of a unified currency. It wouldn't be all that hard to initially post "I'm not entertaining offers that don't feature Schaefer's + Stormlash + Tyrael's" or whatnot.
In the case of pgem/rune auctions, it's obviously even easier to set a reserve.
The one gripe I have with the probation period is the following situation.
1. Trader who dupes many high-end items w/o knowing that it's unacceptable joins and actually reads the stickies.
2. Trader trades 25 times within the next 3 months.
3. At the immediate expiration of the probation, said trader offers 25 Stormlashes for trade and gets banz0red.
Under our current system, said duper would likely have been caught rather earlier. Anything we can do about this?
superficial
29-06-2006, 11:27
sorry im too lazy to read prev posts.
my thoughts on auctions:
After an item is sold to the highest bidder,
If, after the bid, the owner changed his/her mind and doesnt want to sell the item any more, then the auction can only be cancelled if both parties agree to the cancellation
how does that sound?
<edit> since the highest bidder may be reluctant to cancel the bid, maybe it can worked out if the auctioneer paid a 'cancellation' fee to the highest bidder... e.g. pgems or whatever is suitable
The one gripe I have with the probation period is the following situation.
1. Trader who dupes many high-end items w/o knowing that it's unacceptable joins and actually reads the stickies.
2. Trader trades 25 times within the next 3 months.
3. At the immediate expiration of the probation, said trader offers 25 Stormlashes for trade and gets banz0red.
Under our current system, said duper would likely have been caught rather earlier. Anything we can do about this?
My point of view: dupers are lazy. They must be, because MFing for high-end items = work.
Lazy dupers won't bother trying to obtain credibility by trading for three months.
Because the SPTF is not the only trade forum, them lazy dupers will find a place to unload that does not throw up this three-month 25-trade barrier.
The trader you describe will probably give himself away within even a week of trading. Especially if said trader is dumb enough to offer 25 'lashes for trade.
My point of view: a 3 month hurdle would drive a lot of dupers away.
The solution to the *cough*only mildly exaggerated*cough* example you have provided would be keeping all members of the SPTF under probation until they receive 5 votes of respected community members. I'll leave the selection of said members up for discussion...
Ravenlord
29-06-2006, 11:57
I voted yes on the obligation to sell in an auction, as I said in my previous post, but I want to elaborate.
There are two kinds of auctions:
1. You have a single high-valued item and are auctioning it for items in a (hopefully extensive) ISO list.
2. You are auctioning off a set of items for a large amount of gems/jewels/runes (new rules?).
In auction type 2 I feel that the seller is obliged to sell for the closing price, no matter how low. If you list a reserve price, OK, cool, but if you don't it's your risk. The same the other way around too. A bidder is equally obliged to pay the closing price in order to keep things fair for the other bidders. A bid retraction may happen, but not wanting the item at the end of an auction anymore is a no-no. These auctions are in my eyes a serious business, also because they involve more than two people.
Auction type 1 is another matter. If I were to auction my [insert shiny TC87], I'd like to see a bunch of nice items in return. If, because of mod status/restrictive ISO list, the end bid is unsatisfactory, there should be no obligation to sell.
In short, I voted yes, but hope to have made clear that that was for type 2 auctions only.
I agree with you and I also voted yes :thumbsup:
New Trader Probation Period
Single Player trading is based on trust, and trust must be earned. Traders who are new the forum are considered to be under probation. While under this probation period, there are restictions what what items they can trade. The probation period ends after the trader has completed 25 trades and has been trading for at least three months in the Single Player Trade Forum.
Ouch. Nexor doesn't like it. Doesn't like it at all. Like many others already said these numbers seem just too high. Tradeing junk for 3 months just to be allowed to trade what you want is too much.
If this gets into final version of rules I guess we can expect alot of "ISO:25 Cathan's Ring/FT:25 Pgems" threads :sad2:
The following items may not be traded by traders during the probation period:
Uniques: Stromlash, Nightwing's Veil, Schaefer's Hammer, Griffon's Eye, Crown of Ages, Death's Fathom, Astreons, Mangs, Death's Web, Tyrael's Might
Runes Io and Above
Charms: Fine charms of Vita, Steel charms of Vita, Shimmering Charms of Vita, Skill Charms of Vita
Jewels: Ruby Jewels of Fervor, Scintilating Jewels of Fervor, Vermillion Jewels of Fervor, Vermillion Jewels of Carnage, Ruby Jewels of Carnage
IMO that list seems kinda random. Why are these items on list and not some other? What about Death Cleaver? Windforce? IKSC? Mara's and other jewelry? There are more rare items than some on this list and some (IMHO) more useful. This just looks like forced items value list.
My suggestions: forget about number of trades and put everyone who posts intro in SPF on 3 (or 4) months probation period. Until probation ends that person cannot trade at all and must be active member of community (not only post intro thread and then 3 months after that tradelist in his/her second post - there should be some documented item drops in item find thread, posts in other threads, etc).
Rune Trading
Runes may be traded, with the following limitations and rules:
There is no restriction on trading runes Hel and below, or items containing these runes.
Runes Io to Ist (and items containing them) may be traded by people who are not in the New Trader Probation Period without restriction.
Runes Vex and above may be traded, but a quarantine period of 20 days is required. A minimum of 20 days must pass between when the rune is found and the rune is traded. The most likely place to document finding a rune is the Item Find Thread in the Single Player Forum, but other appropriate threads are okay as well, such a tourney threads.
My suggestion on rune tradeing: 5 months probation (starting from time of intro post, just like for items) for rune trades above Ist. And it's impossible to track runes in item find thread. I'm doing HF runs last few months and I posted results of 2 or 3 runs only... and I haven't seen others posting about their luck with HF either. So, what about old runes that weren't reported in item find thread?
Should auction sellers be required to trade their item no matter what the final price: No.
IMO that list seems kinda random. Why are these items on list and not some other? What about Death Cleaver? Windforce? IKSC? Mara's and other jewelry? There are more rare items than some on this list and some (IMHO) more useful. This just looks like forced items value list.
This unique list was made by me mostly. It's based on overall rarity and on usefulness to some degree. Jewelry could be easily obtained by Andariel and Mephisto, while most of the items on the list have to be pindled or Baaled, they are much less common then.
I also didn't want to include too many items so I draw a line - just above the Windforce and DC. IKSC grow on trees in comparison with the items on the list :wink3:.
There are also not much items considering rarity than the CoA and Griffon's. (If we don't count TC3, Redeemer+Haeven's Light - mephable, some jewelry - explained, DKforce Spawn - useless, Earth Shifter+Cranium Basher, Azurewrath - mephable, some useless class-specifics)
I am surprised though that you are the first one commenting the list. Maybe we could add there few other items if more people would like it (SoJ, BKWB?)
My suggestions: forget about number of trades and put everyone who posts intro in SPF on 3 (or 4) months probation period. Until probation ends that person cannot trade at all and must be active member of community (not only post intro thread and then 3 months after that tradelist in his/her second post - there should be some documented item drops in item find thread, posts in other threads, etc).
I think that new members should be able to trade for the normal gear they need...
My suggestion on rune tradeing: 5 months probation (starting from time of intro post, just like for items) for rune trades above Ist. And it's impossible to track runes in item find thread. I'm doing HF runs last few months and I posted results of 2 or 3 runs only... and I haven't seen others posting about their luck with HF either. So, what about old runes that weren't reported in item find thread?
I think that most of the HF rushers do their rushes for a specific rune for their own needs. After cubing their rune, we usually see a new Grief in IFT, so the rune is documented that way.
I also didn't want to include too many items so I draw a line - just above the Windforce and DC. IKSC grow on trees in comparison with the items on the list :wink3:.
I understand you must draw line somewhere but someone who trades hax0red DC, WF, IKSC or CB still can do much dmg. If you will really go with that kind of probation that list needs to be expanded. We don't have fixed prices here - I'm sure there's enough items outside your list that can get comparable or higher prices (I would pay more for DC than for Schaffer's or Stormlash, and no, I'm not insane :tongue: ).
I am surprised though that you are the first one commenting the list. Maybe we could add there few other items if more people would like it (SoJ, BKWB?)
Well, there are 3 options... a) everyone else agrees with your list, b) they are too lazy to comment or c) I'm annoying whiner :scratch: And yes, SoJ + BKWB + some other items should be added to that list.
I think that new members should be able to trade for the normal gear they need...
Hm, I cannot argue with that... you are right. How about limiting their trades on excep and lower elite uniques for a month?
Cattleya
29-06-2006, 20:44
I understand you must draw line somewhere but someone who trades hax0red DC, WF, IKSC or CB still can do much dmg. If you will really go with that kind of probation that list needs to be expanded. We don't have fixed prices here - I'm sure there's enough items outside your list that can get comparable or higher prices (I would pay more for DC than for Schaffer's or Stormlash, and no, I'm not insane :tongue: ). I'm not sure I would really want to expand the list. The point isn't to cripple trading, just make people hold off on the rarest of the rare. The items you listed were actually on our "maybe" list. (Orignially I had 2 different probation tiers set up -- which was way too complicated.) Although as strict as the probation rules are as currently written, I don't want an overwhelming list of items. Besides, then lemming's hypothetical duper can dupe up some Windforces and get caught early on.
sirpoopsalot
30-06-2006, 09:26
Overall, I like where the new rules are headed, but I think that we're still in the drafting phase. Another iteration or two might just do the trick.
However, I have a couple more thoughts.
About the Vex and above runes, what about the cubed ones? I mean, I'm not going to post everyone I find an um off the forge... so if I cube those, and get a, say, Vex. Does the 20 days rule apply? Technically it's not a new rune... and it's pretty hard to monitor if everyone claims that they cubed up their Ohms and Vexs and such.
I think whichever's point seems to have slipped through the cracks in many responses so far, but it should be considered (although Hrus touched upon it and made many good points, I suspect there are still [several] people that HF rush and don't post in the IFT when they reach their goal - perhaps this is influenced by the common/majority opinion that HF rushes are cheesy, and those that do it don't want to get flamed - but I'm certain there are people that do it and don't post).
Auctions - I voted a very emphatic, resounding NO to the poll. Here's why:
To be perfectly honest, there are people here that I do not trust - including a small number of 'old' traders who are more active, more rich, and more established than I. If one of those people 'won' a bid on an item I'm auctioning, I'd essentially be forced to give my item away for free since I have no intention of using their items. If this were to happen, I would PM any untrusted bidder and ask them to withdraw, but that doesn't force them to do so (in fact, they may be more motivated to 'win' that item, just for spite).
Because auctions alter the negotiation phase of a trade so much (i.e. you really don't negotiate at all), it should still be possible to back-out after the fact. IMO, you should always have the ability to reject any trade at any time (in fact, I intend to maintain and execute that opinion, and respect others if they elect to use it too - even in auctions, and even if it gets me banned).
In regards to hepcat's point about swapping Cathan's Seals and Isenhart's Plates to get the 25 trades ... perhaps instead of 25 minimum trades (or if you want more strict, in addition to 25 trades), you must trade with 10 different forum members. It seems that could inhibit potential collusion between two or three members swapping items to get their 25 trade limit and permission to trade l33t stuff... however, this idea has a big caveat in that it doesn't help hepcat or others (such as myself) who are in a very small minority and don't have 10 different trading partners still available due to our 'unpopular' play style.
Otherwise, I think 3-6+ months of relatively regular activity - in the SPF - seems like a reasonable exemption to the 25 and/or 10 rule. (although we should definitely ban AE, he's a haxx0r :laugh:).
Lemming's got a good point though (even if the 25 'lashes scenario is somewhat exagerated) - a duper-trader could obtain items for his/her first 25 trades while using the duped/hacked items before being caught, and thereby contaminating the people he traded with to get his trade count up to 25. :yikes:
- Things you may not trade: -
...
bugged items
Um... what about ethereal armor/shields with the 2xEth. defense bonus? Even though this policy is already in place, and we all know these items are bugged, they're still traded on occasion (and generally accepted) around here. Either we need to ban these trades altogether, remove the rule altogether, or we need to define the acceptable and unacceptable limits of 'bugged'.
I don't remember is there are other bugged items that are traded on occasion or not, but if there are, could someone let us know so if a rule-change is made in this regard those items aren't omitted?
Overall, I like where the new rules are headed, but I think that we're still in the drafting phase. Another iteration or two might just do the trick.
I'm with you here. The spirit of the new rules feels right, but the discussion is far from over yet.
..., I suspect there are still [several] people that HF rush and don't post in the IFT when they reach their goal - perhaps this is influenced by the common/majority opinion that HF rushes are cheesy, and those that do it don't want to get flamed - ...
I think that if you'd post a poll about the cheesiness of HF rushing in the SPF, you might get a mostly no vote. I think that if you were to limit the poll to active traders, that the result will be more in favor of the HF rushes.
At least that's what I expect to see, because I think that the majority of the cheese camp will not trade anyway. It would be interesting to poll the opinion in the trade forum though.
Auctions - I voted a very emphatic, resounding NO to the poll. Here's why:
To be perfectly honest, there are people here that I do not trust - ... If one of those people 'won' a bid on an item I'm auctioning, I'd essentially be forced to give my item away for free since I have no intention of using their items.
...
Because auctions alter the negotiation phase of a trade so much (i.e. you really don't negotiate at all), it should still be possible to back-out after the fact. ...
I think the issue you describe is with what I've called a type 1 auction. Auctioning a [very valuable TC87/charm/jewel] against an extensive ISO list.
Jjscud proposed to not label those threads as auctions but as trades, so the feeling of obligation is not present. The reason I voted aye on the poll is because I was thinking of type 2 auctions, items for jewels or the like.
While I understand that no one wants to trade with haxx0rs, I think a sense of commitment in auctions benefits both bidders and auctioneers alike.
In regards to hepcat's point about swapping Cathan's Seals and Isenhart's Plates to get the 25 trades ... this idea has a big caveat in that it doesn't help hepcat or others (such as myself) who are in a very small minority and don't have 10 different trading partners still available due to our 'unpopular' play style.
Otherwise, I think 3-6+ months of relatively regular activity - in the SPF - seems like a reasonable exemption to the 25 and/or 10 rule. (although we should definitely ban AE, he's a haxx0r :laugh:).
Lemming's got a good point though (even if the 25 'lashes scenario is somewhat exagerated) - a duper-trader could obtain items for his/her first 25 trades while using the duped/hacked items before being caught, and thereby contaminating the people he traded with to get his trade count up to 25. :yikes:
A system where traders can only be voted out of probation by respected elders might be the best, but also trickiest to implement.
I too feel that this part of the new rules deserves more discussion.
- Things you may not trade: -
...
bugged items
Um... what about ethereal armor/shields with the 2xEth. defense bonus? Even though this policy is already in place, and we all know these items are bugged, they're still traded on occasion (and generally accepted) around here. Either we need to ban these trades altogether, remove the rule altogether, or we need to define the acceptable and unacceptable limits of 'bugged'.
I don't remember is there are other bugged items that are traded on occasion or not, but if there are, could someone let us know so if a rule-change is made in this regard those items aren't omitted?
I think the bugged items issue and the HF rush issue are similar in that they, while totally diffent concepts, both push the envelope of what can be done legitly in the game. What about items found in 1.08/1.10beta?
At least bugged armors can be spotted immediately. I don't know the prevailing opinion on this issue, because this bug comes with the patch you use, just like the Andy bug. I don't think anyone complains if you were to trade the SoJ you found off NM/Hell Andy.
My opinion: if you disallow them, they will be traded via PM/MP. If you allow them, then the trades can be documented and if you object to those items, you know who not to trade with.
Disclaimer: Quotes edited for shorter post size.
What kind of HF rushes are we discussing here? Rushing through the game with one character for HF, rushing with two or more chars at the same time in any version, or only 1.09 ones?
What kind of HF rushes are we discussing here? Rushing through the game with one character for HF, rushing with two or more chars at the same time in any version, or only 1.09 ones?
For all intents and purposes, 1.09 classic rushing 7 chars and then moving them to 1.1x and getting the HF drop. I'm not saying that is what everyone is doing, but the general consensus (from past discussions) seems to be that "Rushing through the game with one character for HF" is simply a play style. HF rushing implies moving other characters who don't participate in the quests through the game.
@all: just something to keep in mind, all of these rules are tightening in on what we have now so issues like someone trading 25 duped lashes or making 25 busywork trades are going to be possible, but they are just as possible, if not more so, right now. The only thing we are opening up is runes, and those appear to be under reasonably tight control. Also we'll still be here, just because someone gets past the rules/requirements doesn't mean we have to accept everything they do.
sirpoopsalot
02-07-2006, 07:55
...
I think the issue you describe is with what I've called a type 1 auction. Auctioning a [very valuable TC87/charm/jewel] against an extensive ISO list.
Jjscud proposed to not label those threads as auctions but as trades, so the feeling of obligation is not present. The reason I voted aye on the poll is because I was thinking of type 2 auctions, items for jewels or the like.
While I understand that no one wants to trade with haxx0rs, I think a sense of commitment in auctions benefits both bidders and auctioneers alike.
...
nope, it holds true for both types of auction. If I auction a Gull dagger for PGems and playerX wins (even though I don't trust playerX) I'm sure as heck not going to use those PGems. Although PGems and Gull's are relatively easy to replace, I'm still screwed if forced into a 'trade' with playerX.
I stand by my statement that each trader should be able to reject any trade at any time.
I do agree that the bugged items thing could easily be dropped or moderated somewhat in our trading policy (example, trader must write a disclaimer before trying to trade that item, etc.) - I was just bringing this up because it seems we have a seldom-enforced rule in our current ruleset, and since we're reviewing the rules, it made sense to discuss what exists on paper vs. what exists in reality (i.e. technically trading a bugged item is a bannable offence, but in reality these trades often occur openly in the forum and no-one seems to voice any objections when they take place).
@asdfgah, I was indeed referring to the scenario that jjscud pointed out (although, I don't see why a 1.10 and/or 1.11 Classic character wouldn't work - not that I really care to learn the intricacies :tongue:).
WOW!!!
That was a LOT of reading!!!
Ok, first off, I want to thank all of the Mods for doing their best to keep the SPF and SPTF a trusting community.
A question on runes... I saw somewhere in the middle about screenshots... Will they be sufficient in proving a drop? Before my restart, I think it was Hell FH dropped an Um for me... So if I want to trade that, would a screenshot be viable evidence of the drop?
Probationary Period --> It seems pretty long... I remember when I first got into the SPF/SPTF... It was already rough enough adjusting to the "chaos" of it all... If we are trying to get people in, why put them through "Basic Training" just to qualify to trade? I would think that the whole "You are under watch because you are new" would scare people off...
Auction --> People have mentioned Ebay... You enter an agreement with someone to pay x amount of Pgems for item Y... Auction closes, you pay the person, they give the item... I say both parties must agree (or auctioner has a disclaimer) to cancel the auction... If the person doesn't pay or the auctioner doesn't give up the item(s), they get their own probationary period, no trades/auctions (or Forum ROE - what 200 ROE?) for 1 month (or however long you want it to be...)
Well, that's my 2 Els.. (ooh, I could trade those!!! :wink2: )
I hope that I'm considered a trusted member to the SPF/SPTF... Speaking of which, how would a new person know if they are trusted?
Take care all!!!
Aerwynd :jig: (love that smiley, don't EVER take it away, PLEASE!!!)
*snip*
I hope that I'm considered a trusted member to the SPF/SPTF... Speaking of which, how would a new person know if they are trusted?
In addition to wondering whether or not people are trusted, who's gonna keep track of the 25 trade/3 month thing (well, the three month thing is easy to figure out)?
After 25 trades if I find a Griffons, and try to trade it (which I wouldn't), and I post a FT: for it, what if someone replies and says "You only have 24 trades", am I now under the onus of going back through every thread I've traded in and counting up the trades? Does the accuser have to go find all my trades and link to them? Do the poor mods have to do this? Is there gonna be a group of traders that do this for the trade forum, like AlterEgo originally suggested?
Is this rule just gonna be conveniently ignored for the most part? Why have a rule, if you're not going to enforce it? Just say three month good history in the trade forum, and be done with it.
That just seems like a lot of freaking work for someone to have to do.
Cattleya
02-07-2006, 10:27
I figured it was time to comment again since I am working on the next revision right now.
Probation Period: I'm still tweaking the probation period. I'll probably bounce some more ideas back and forth with Hrus before the anything gets posted, but I think I am closer to a solution that will should be reasonably fair and take into account some of the special cases mentioned in this thread. As far as counting up trades goes, that will primarily be done on the honor system, with the mods going in and counting if there is a dispute. A trader's probation status will be something that can be listed in the profile thread.
I've been writing up the section on rune declarations. Old runes will be taken into consideration here. I will be working on the basic assumption that if someone has a Cham rune sitting in their stash, they will have some recollection of how it got there (found, cubed, traded, ect.) but will not be requiring long lists of proof of it's origin. (Although that sort of thing doesn't hurt. :smiley: )
For auctions: I will be adding a rule that the trades must go through, but that will not take away the right of a seller to ask anyone they do not feel comfortable with to remove their bids. If the seller prefers to make these notifications by PM, they can copy me on the PM to make sure that it is enforced. Once the seller notifies the bidder, the seller will be permitted to remove the bid themselves if they want. There will also be a note warning people who are selling off a high end item and looking for the best offer not to call it an auction, but a regular trade.
Edit: I knew that there was something I forgot. The bugged items. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on this. Right now, what Hrus and I would like to do is clarify that rule by defining bugged items as something that cannot normally spawn in Diablo, like a Ribcracker with +200 mana. This would leave those cube socketed ethereal armors good for trading.
AlterEgo
02-07-2006, 10:28
Is there gonna be a group of traders that do this for the trade forum, like AlterEgo originally suggested?
I didn't really suggest that. I did mention a "review team" for a couple other things though. :wink3: I wouldn't worry too much about the work it would take to manage the 25 trades idea. The folks who would volunteer to do this aren't worried about it.
I've seen no reaction to one of my earlier points. Am I the only one concerned about how this forum would validate "old runes" or runes acquired elsewhere? Maybe none of you have runes that fit those descriptions - or wouldn't be interested in trading them (yeah right...).
1. probation period is good
2 a trader should be able to reject a trade or an auction won by someone untrusted by him
3 a lot of new members are too greddy, check the giveaway thing
4 intro thread before you'll be able to trade join the giveaway thread
5 runes should be traded up till GUL by medium members, n00bs no , old ones may trade all
I like the idea of the probation period, but as has been suggested I think x trades or y months would be better than x trades and y months. As for values to use, that's for someone with a better knowledge of trading here than me. I saw someone say it already, but I think that if people need a certain number of trades before being allowed to trade high end items then they're likely to just not bother with the hassle of jumping through the hoops. I know I wouldn't at any rate.
The restricted items look good, and most importantly keep the restricions to the very top end of items where dupes can cause the most damage.
Also people should always have the opportunity to refuse trades with those they don't trust, even if it is just for PGems, they can still taint your characters/stashes. If an (unknowingly) duped PGem gives you that perfect set of Gloves then you're tainting your characters just as much by using them as if you were using an (unknowingly) duped WF. A simple disclaimer in the first post would sort this though, but sirpoopsalot has summed up my position on that
5 runes should be traded up till GUL by medium members, n00bs no , old ones may trade all
That does still leave the problem of who decides what's "medium" and what's "old". I'd prefer to see rune trading up to Shael for everyone, they're not really much rarer than PGems anyway. I'll be honest here about high runes though. If I had a HR (Ohm or above roughly) I didn't want for some reason I doubt I'd post it in a thread here, it's just too valuable to risk losing so much over. I'd be far more likely to go through MSN/in-game with someone specific, even with rune trading being allowed.
Edit: I'm definately not a regular here though, so I'll stick to listening to the regulars for now :badteeth:
6dollarburger
07-07-2006, 11:17
Just a quick question:
What is the policy for members such as myself, who were active traders throughout 1.10 (albeit in my case outside the SPTF), but took a break and have recently returned to online trading? Most recently, I was active on GWOnline.net, as GW was the game I played most at the time. Now that I'm back into D2, would I need to go through the 3-month probation period, or am I cleared? Or should there still be a probation period, but possibly a shortened one, say 1 month or so?
I just wanted to toss that out for discussion, because I honestly don't know what the current rules dictate or what the members want to do going forward.
P.S. I have no problem with a probation period. In fact, I think it's a good idea, and if I'm required to wait, I will.
sirpoopsalot
08-07-2006, 04:38
Currently, we're still under the old rules, so you're free to trade non-banned items (all runes are still out, etc.).
However, I think that if a probation period is implemented, your previous trade history should definitely be taken into account (i.e. if you'd done something wrong, it would be held against you, so likewise if your previous trades were legit you should be 'rewarded').
I like the idea of a probation period. However, it does leave an opening for concern as to the legitimacy of rune trading.
If someone were to slip under the rader and trade all sorts of illegitimate runes, it would cause complete chaos in the community- Many people would have to restart; which im sure they wouldnt be too happy about. Perhaps a probation period could be applied to high end items only. From there, Cattleya and Hrus could give rune trading permission to trusted members.
Ive found a vex (pindle)/gul (forge)/ 2x ist (countess) / 4x um / 3x pul, and brought a few others off my brother. Unlike him, im not rly a runehunter at all. An opportunity to buy runes of trusted forum members would be nice.
monsinour
13-07-2006, 16:56
Is there a proposed effective date for the new rules?
I myself have no problem with an x# of trades within a y# of months. I think it should be changed to which ever condition is met first. I would also restrict it to trading with atleast 5 to 8 different forum members. Other than that, the new rules seem fine. I voted yes in the auction as even on ebay, when a buyer who you dont want to win, wins the auction, you are obligated to go through with the transaction. You are allowed to not accept bids and reject bids from certain bidders as well. If this was carried over here, then there should never be an instance where Mr. poopsalot would be put in the unfortunate position of "giving away" his items.
Cattleya
13-07-2006, 23:00
I'm replying to your post because it is the most recent, and seems to cover a lot of the topics that have been coming up. I'm not picking on you. :wink3: Is there a proposed effective date for the new rules?It's moving along. I can't give an estimated date, but forward progress is still being made. I have what is a near final version ready for input from the other trade mods and site admins.
I myself have no problem with an x# of trades within a y# of months. I think it should be changed to which ever condition is met first. I would also restrict it to trading with atleast 5 to 8 different forum members. There is a very specific reason that I want both conditions met. One, having to have a certain number of trades means a certain number of ATMA readouts of items will be posted. This gives everyone a chance to see stuff that looks out of place. The time is set up to keep someone from spamming a lot of pointless trades just to get to the number of trades limit. (The current revison of the rules make allowances for old time SPFers who haven't traded much or at all.)I voted yes in the auction as even on ebay, when a buyer who you dont want to win, wins the auction, you are obligated to go through with the transaction. You are allowed to not accept bids and reject bids from certain bidders as well. If this was carried over here, then there should never be an instance where Mr. poopsalot would be put in the unfortunate position of "giving away" his items.That is the way it is set up in the current revision. Sellers will have the right to remove any bids they wish from their auctions, but will be expected to actually trade items with the winners.
But I'm quite affraid with the new rules our barter system value will be replaced with runes as value measurer.
sirpoopsalot
17-07-2006, 07:13
I agree with salvo here - I'm curious as to what percentage of rune-trading will occupy this forum as soon as it's allowed. In theory, runes above Lem are pretty darn rare and shouldn't take over too much, but I'm curious (err... curious, but apprehensious) to see how it works in application.
Any chance the next iteration is coming in the next couple of days? I go on holidays on Wed. (and will be offline) and would like the chance to weigh in before they're accepted. Cat's recent clarifications (posted here (http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=4589741&postcount=90)) do address - in a fair manner - many of my previous concerns.
... and personally, I like the current clarification of bugged items.
@Cattleya and Hrus
BTW, I had another re-look in Cat's latest 'official proposal' (posted here (http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=4572368&postcount=44)) - and for trading runes it mentions Io-Ist in one point, and then it jumps to Vex and above... uhhh... what about Gul runes? :p
I think you need to shift one of those scales by one rune (I don't really care which direction - it's just that Gul runes are ambiguous in the current proposal).
cheers
'poops
Cattleya
17-07-2006, 07:38
Okay, by popular demand, here is the current revision. Remember that these rules are not official. The old rules still apply! All of this is subject to change and all of that fun stuff. :smiley:
Single Player Trade Forum (SPTF) Rules
Welcome to the Single Player Trading Forum!
All members are expected to follow these rules at all times. Ignorance to these rules is not a valid excuse for breaking them. By no means does any of these rules supersede or replace the rules published by the site Administrators. You agreed to these rules when you registered, but if you need to be reminded of any of them, they can be found here (http://forums.diabloii.net/rules/). If you are found to be in violation of these rules, any Moderators or Administrator may take whatever disciplinary action he or she deems appropriate for the offense, up to and including a permanent ban.
Before you go any further, you need to get yourself up to speed on the Single Player Forum, where the people who trade in this forum hang out. The Single Player FAQ, Tips, & Character Guides (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=126808) is a great source of information for Single Player D2. You need to read all of the FAQs/Guides listed in the "About Our Forum" section before trading. You should also post an introduction in the Single Player Forum before trading (this is explained in the FAQs.)
Understanding the Risks of Trading
It is important when you decide to trade on these forums, that you realize that you need to be careful and make sure that you do some research before engaging in trading. The SPF and SPTF have a great community, but there will always be individuals who are not honest about their playing practices. You as the trader will need to be vigilant to protect yourself. Here are some important things to be aware of:
It is a good idea to look up the post history of a trading partner.
Quarantining items that you get from a trade (especially from new traders) can help save your other characters and items from being "tainted" if a problem is found later with the person you traded with. Keep these items in a separate stash for a period of time before moving them into your general stashes or onto your characters.
Remember that is something seems too good to be true, it probably is too good to be true, and is a scam. Use common sense when trading high end items. (In other words, don't let greed make you stupid.)
Keep in mind that some items (notably runes) do not have fingerprints. This makes them hard to track and hard to verify, and significantly increases the risk factor involved when trading them. You should only trade these items with people that you thoroughly trust. The nature of these items limits the actions that the moderators can take to check into these items.
You always have the right to refuse a trade if you are not comfortable trading with that individual for whatever reason. If you do so, be polite about it. A simple "Thank you for the offer, but I'm not comfortable with that trade." will suffice.
General Rules
Show respect for everyone, whether they deserve it or not.
Be polite.
Do not post Off-Topic threads. Reasonable Off-Topic threads are permitted in the Single Player Forum (http://forums.diabloii.net/forumdisplay.php?f=3).
Do not “bump” your thread. If someone is interested in your items, they will find them.
You may not post a trade offer in a thread if the items offered would change their trade status (as indicated in trade status tag in the thread's title.) Some examples would be:
If the person is listed as [1.10 HC Vanilla] you may not offer 1.11 items, SC items, or any items that are mod affected. You may offer 1.09 (or earlier) items, but make sure you indicate them as such.
If the person is listed as [1.11 SC RWM] you may not offer 1.11 RRM items, or 1.11 RRM/RWM items. You may offer vanilla items (and of course RWM items.)
Some people have divided their characters and stashes into different statuses. If you do this, and the items you are trading are from a different status than those you are seeking, you should list that in your trade thread title something like this: FT [ 1.11 SC Vanilla] ISO [1.11 SC RRM/RWM] The rule is applied to the ISO part, so people may offer Vanilla, RRM, or RWM items in such a thread in exchange for the Vanilla items being offered by the thread starter.
You must always indicate your version and mod status to your trading partner.
Things You May Not Trade
Duped items
Items created using any third-party program (hacked items)
Bugged items (Bugged items are considred to be items that cannot normally spawn in Diablo. A glitched ribcracker that adds 400 to mana cannot be traded. However, things like ethereal armors socketed with the cube recipe are fine.)
Any item that does not normally spawn in an unmodified Diablo 2 game
Any items found while using Maphack, bots, or another similar programs
Items found by characters that have been edited
Characters
Quest rewards (This applies to the quest reward itself. Items created or modified by a quest reward are fine.)
Any “real life” items or services
Trader Profile Thread
This thread is set up to give people an overview of the various traders vital statistics. Traders should post a profile before they start trading or if their trade status changes. A summary will be maintained by the moderators in the first couple of posts. Instructions on what information to add is listed in the first post of that thread. Please be aware that this is simply a convinence, and does not replace making the proper trade declarations when trading.
New Trader Probation Period
Single Player trading is based on trust, and trust must be earned. Traders who are new the forum are considered to be under probation. While under this probation period, there are restictions what what items they can trade. The probation period ends after the trader has completed 15 trades and has been trading for at least three months in the Single Player Trade Forum.
Note: People who were members of the Single Player Forum before June 1, 2005 are exempt from the New Trader Probation Period as long as they have a minimum of 100 posts and have at some time publically displayed items. This public display can include posting ATMA readouts of items in the Item Find thread, hosting a giveaway of their extra items, or trading with other members.
The following items may not be traded by traders during the probation period:
Uniques: Stromlash, Nightwing's Veil, Schaefer's Hammer, Griffon's Eye, Crown of Ages, Death's Fathom, Astreons, Mangs, Death's Web, Tyrael's Might
Runes Io and Above
Charms: Fine charms of Vita, Steel charms of Vita, Shimmering Charms of Vita, Skill Charms of Vita
Jewels: Ruby Jewels of Fervor, Scintilating Jewels of Fervor, Vermillion Jewels of Fervor, Vermillion Jewels of Carnage, Ruby Jewels of Carnage
Rune Trading
Runes may be traded, with the following limitations and rules:
There is no restriction on trading runes Hel and below, or items containing these runes.
Runes Io to Gul (and items containing them) may be traded by people who are not in the New Trader Probation Period without restriction.
Runes Vex and above (and items containing them) may be traded by people who are not in the New Trader Probation Period, but require that the history of the rune is known. The easiest way to do this is with the Item Find Thread. New high runes and runewords (those that were found or created after these rules were posted) should be documented in the Item Find Thread (IFT) when they are found, cubed, or created. Here are some examples of how to do this in the IFT:
I have been doing hellforge rushes for the last (enter time or approximate number of runs here) and finally cubed up the Lo rune needed to make this Fortitude. (And post the readout of the Fortitude.) In other words, if you are doing rushes for a specific goal, you can wait until the goal is achieved to post the results, just include the pertinant information. Of course, if people already know ahead of time that you are working for that goal, it will make it easier for them to trust you.
I just found an Ohm rune. (Screenshots of the find are good and encouraged, but not required.)
I just traded a for a Ber rune, and with the one I already had, I cubed up a Jah. I took the Ohm rune I found a while back and posted about here and made a Faith bow (paste in ATMA readout) and now I'm going to give it to Cattleya.
For older runes, when you go to trade them, you need to give an explination of where they came from. (Think of this as telling the story of the rune.) It is understood that details may be fuzy, but do the best you can. Provide as much information as you can. Of course, do not make up information if you cannot remember or do not know. It is better to have a little bit of honest information than a bunch of fabricated information. Links to relevant threads mentioning the rune are helpful, but if they don't exist, they don't exist. Here are some examples:
I have a Ohm rune that I've had for a while, I cubed it up when I did a bunch hell forge rushes a while back.
I have a Lo rune given to me by X person at another forum. I've mentioned it in this thread over here.
I have a Zod rune I found in an MP game. I think that forum member Y and Z were there.
The moderators reserve the right to ask for a rune to be removed from a trade list if there are concerns about its legitamacy.
Auctions
Auctions should follow these basic guidelines:
An end time and date must be specified. Auctions may end early if there is no new bidding for a couple of days (the person running the auction should list this possibility in the initial post.) If the auctioneer does decide to end an auction early, they should post a 24 hour warning before actually ending the auction. Auctions may be extended if circumstances require it (such as forum downtime) but this should be done sparingly.
The auctioneer needs to specify the type of items they will accept as bids. The auctioneer decides the value of offers to determine who is winning.
When an auction ends, the seller must trade items with the winners, they may not back out. Because of this, it is a good idea to set a minimum bid price. Also, when looking to sell a high end item, you might not want to call the trade an auction. You can still ask everyone for their best offers based on your ISO, but you will have the option not to accept any of them. NOTE: This rule does not mean that you have to accept bids from all people. If someone bids in your auction that you are not comfortable with, you have the right to remove their bid and ask them not to place any further bids. You may do this politely in the thread, or polietly via PM. If you do it via PM, you should also copy a moderator on the PM. This will ensure that your request can be enforced. If someone you don't want to trade with bids at the last second, do not close the auction. Contact the bidder as explained above and remove their bid before closing the auction.
It is a good idea to keep your auction up to date with the current bids. Posting a warning 24 hours before the end of the auction is also a good idea, as time zones can be confusing.
Keep auction lengths reasonable. In most cases, no more than a week should be needed. Auctions that drag on will frustrate the people looking for items.
You may only run one auction thread at a time. When one auction ends, you may start another.
Trade Status Tags
Trade threads must always include a status tag in the title. This lets people know what version you are using, as well as what mods you use. Make sure that you read and understand The SPF, Game Mods, and You (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=468882) before trading to make sure you use the appropriate tags. The basic format for these tags are [Version Pool Mods]. Here is a list of common tags, I will only list the 1.11 SC ones, but appropriate version and SC/HC status can be subsitued as appropriate:
[1.11 SC Unmodded] - Items for trade are 1.11 (or 1.11b), softcore, and have not been "tainted" by mods.
[1.11 SC RRM] - Items for trade are 1.11 (or 1.11b), softcore, and the items were found using RRM or interacted with RRM items or characters. They did not interact with any other mods.
[1.11 SC RWM] - Items for trade are 1.11 (or 1.11b), softcore, and the items were found using RWM or interacted with RWM items or characters. They did not interact with any other mods.
[1.11 SC RRM/RWM] - Items for trade are 1.11 (or 1.11b), softcore, and the items were found using RWM and RRM or interacted with RWM and RRM items or characters. They did not interact with any other mods.
[1.11 SCL Unmodded] - These items were found by characters following the rules of the 1.11 ladder, and do not use or interact with ladder RWM users.
[1.11 SCL RWM] - These items were found by characters following the rules of the 1.11 ladder, and were found using the RWM or they have interacted with RWM items or characters. This is the only mod approved for ladder play.
Cattleya
17-07-2006, 07:39
How to Post a Trade List
Each member is permitted to post his own trade thread. Your thread should include, in its title, the date that it was created and the appropriate status tag (see the previous section.) In your post, you must list the item or items that you are searching for by name, as well as what you are offering in return. Be as specific as possible; this will help ensure that you get what you are looking for in the trade.
Item lists are permitted and encouraged; however, you are encouraged to use space-saving measures where appropriate. If possible, separate items by type or function to make a specific item easier to find, and alphabetize lists whenever practical. Rather than listing each item in a separate line, use a vertical line (shift and \ key: it looks like | ) to separate item names. Remember that the easier your list is to navigate, the more likely it is that you will get what you are looking for and have a positive trading experience. You may also want to use Flavie (or Fara) to post your trade list. You will need a place to host the web page in order to use this option.
Trade negotiations should take place within the thread. This measure will keep everyone honest in their trade offerings, and if there is a problem, is more easily traceable than e-mails or Private Messages. If you choose not to post e-mail addresses or IP addresses, you may exchange the same via PM, but only after the trade deal has been made. See the section below titled, “Making the Exchange.”
A sample trade list:
Thread Title: Cattleya's Trade Thread 17-June-2006 [1.11 SC Vanilla]
In Search Of (ISO):
Griswold’s Honor | Griswold’s Redemption | Heaven’s Light | The Stone of Jordan | Tal Rasha’s Guardianship | Warshrike
For Trade (FT):
Armor
Auldur’s Advance] | Auldur’s Stony Gaze | Atma’s Wail | Black Hades | Blackthorn’s Face| Credendum | Duriel’s Shell | Goulhide (ethereal) | Gravepalm |Guillaume's Face | Haemosu’s Adamant x2 | Head Hunter’s Glory | Hellmouth | Homunculus | Immortal King’s Detail | Infernostride | Iron Pelt | Lava Gout| M’avina’s Embrace | M’avina’s Icy Clutch | M’avina’s Tenet | Rite of Passage | Rockstopper| Shaftstop (empty socket) | Skin of the Flayed One | Souldrainer | Superior Balrog Skin (4 Sockets, +12% Durability) | Tal Rasha’s Horadric Crest | The Spirit Shroud | Valkyrie Wing | Venomgrip | Viscerataunt | Whistan’s Guard | Wolfhowl
Weapons
Arioc’s Needle | Arm of King Leoric (Ethereal) | Auldur’s Rhythm | Blackhand Key | Blade of Ali Baba | Bloodletter | Bloodmoon | Bonehew | Boneslayer Blade | Carin Shard | Culwen’s Point | Dangoon’s Teaching | Dark Clan Crusher | Deathbit | Earthshaker | Eschuta's Temper | Felloak | Feral Claws (3 Sockets, +2 to Venom, +2 to Death Sentry) | Flamebellow | Fleshrender | Ginther’s Rift | Gravespine | Hand of Blessed Light | Heart Carver | Heaven's Light | Hexfire | Hone Sudan (Amn) | Jade Talon | Lycander’s Aim | Messerschmidt's Reaver | Pierre Tombale Couant | Plague Bearer | Razor’s Edge | Razorswitch | Ribcracker | Spellsteel | Spineripper x2 | Stormeye | Stormspike [|Stoutnail | Superior Suwayyah (3 Sockets, +14% Durability) | Sureshrill Frost | The Atlantean | The Gavel of Pain | The Iron Jang Bong | The Salamander | The Vile Husk | Thunderstroke | Torch of Iro | Widowmaker | Wizardspike
Charms
Fanatic Grand Charm | Natural Grand Charm | Spiritual Grand Charm of Thunder (+1 to Shape-Shifting Skills, 1-10 Lightning Damage)
Jewels
Ambergis Jewel (Lightning Resist +16%) | Carmine Jewel of Carnage (+22 to Max Damage) | Jewel of Carnage (+14) | Jewel of Fervor | Jewel of Prosperity (10% mf) | Realgar Jewel (23%) |] Realgar Jewel of Joyfulness (22% ED, +4 to Minimum Damage) | Jewel of Thunder (Adds 1-72 lightning damage) | Realgar Jewel of Wrath (26%, +9 to Maximum Damage) | Silver Jewel of Hope (+11 to Life, +56 to Attack Rating)
Replying to a Trade List
When replying to a trade list, state simply which item or items you are offering, and in return for what. Be as specific as possible. If you require more information on an item being offered, ask politely and directly.
You may ask for an ATMA readout on any item, at any time, for any reason, and the poster should provide it for you. See the section below titled, “Use of the ATMA Program.” Please note that Mac users don't have access to ATMA, and so they will not be able to provide readouts.
DO NOT post a reply that accuses another member of any type of misconduct! If you think that an item or a person is suspect, bring it to the attention of a Moderator. More information on this is provided below, in the section titled, “Reporting Suspect Persons / Items.”
A sample reply:
I offer Heaven’s Light in exchange for Widowmaker and M’avina’s Embrace.
Will you please post the ATMA readout on your Thunderstroke?
Trade Values
There is no “currency” in Single Player trading. Our economy is a barter system, where values are relative only to the individuals need for an item. Thus it is entirely up to you to determine if a trade offer is fair or not.
If you see a trade going on that does seems one sided, and the people involved do not seem aware of the rarity/usefulness of the items in question, you may politely bring the subject up and provide the appropriate information about the items in question. Just remember that it is up to the individuals to ultimately decide how they feel about the trade. Traders are encourages to use the price check thread to get a rough idea of the value of items.
Making the Exchange
There are three basic ways to execute a trade:
1. Make a mule character or ATMA stash, and e-mail it as an attachment to the person with whom you are trading. After the trade has been executed, meaning both people have their requested items, you must DELETE the item/mule/stash from your computer. This prevents dupes from being created and re-traded If you choose to post an e-mail address, you do so at your own risk!
2. Meet the person with whom you are trading in a TCP/IP game, and make the exchange using the in-game trade window. If you choose to post an IP address, you do so at your own risk!
3. Meet the person with whom you are trading in an Open Battle.net game, and make the exchange using the in-game trade window. This method is discouraged, but can be used if no other options are available. It would likely be better to request that someone host a TCP/IP game to allow the trading in the SPF MP thread.
Giving Items Away in Trade Threads
Do not offer items for free when there are trade negoitations already in progress. Also, allow a post to be up for 24 hours before offering items for free. (The 24 waiting period does not apply to the Small ISO thread.)
Reporting Suspect Persons / Items
Unfortunate though it is, there will be times when you encounter a dishonest person and/or an illegitimate item. The only correct course of action is to use the “Report This Post” button. This also applies to any circumstance in which any forum or site rule has been broken. Be sure to provide an adequate description of the problem when you report the post to a moderator. You may politely request an explanation in such a situation, but only after the post has been reported. The Moderator or Administrator who responds to your report will examine the post that you reported, and then question the individual responsible for the post. DO NOT, under any circumstances, be hostile, accusatory, disrespectful, or otherwise negative to any individual in this forum, regardless of the wrong he may have done.
Use of the ATMA Program
ATMA is the acronym for A Tenshi Muling Application. There is an ATMA FAQ (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=265765) posted in the Single Player Forum. Though it is not a requirement, all members are highly encouraged to use ATMA as their primary muling program, because it displays & reports item fingerprints. These random letter and number combinations are unique to individual items in the game. This fingerprint, along with the other information provided in an ATMA readout, can assist any member in determining the legitimacy of an item. As previously stated, any member may request that you post the full ATMA readout of any item that you are offering for trade. Do not be offended by this; it is standard practice in Single Player trading. In fact, you will likely improve your reputation by consistently and without argument posting ATMA readouts for specific items when requested.
Mac users do not have access to ATMA, and so will not be able to provide ATMA readouts. When trades occur between mac and PC users, the PC user should post the ATMA readouts of the items they recieved from the mac user after the trade is completed.
Use of Mods
Some players enjoy D2 game mods (e.g. Red Rune Mod, FE Mod, Eastern Sun). Trading items found while playing them is generally acceptable, as long as you fully disclose the game mod in your posts. You should read The SPF, Game Mods, and You (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=468882) before trading. Keep in mind that some mods are not acceptable for trading and MP. These include ANY items from "drop mods" are prohibited, because it affects the rest of us by diluting the trading pool. Also, mods that include character editing functions (such as PlugY) are also not acceptable. (Note: Eastern Sun players may trade with other Easter Sun players.) Any item found while using Maphack is also prohibited.
If you question whether you may trade because of your mod use, send an e-mail or Private Message to a Moderator.
Open Battle.net and Trading
Players should be aware that trading items or playing characters on Open Battle.net with strangers or with an unknown host will prevent any affected characters and items from being able to enter the SPF trading and MP pool. Hacked and duped items are common on Open Battle.net, and in general, items from Open are not considered legitimate. It is possible to set up password protected games on Open, and make sure that only trusted people are given the game name and password, and this does not taint characters. However, such games should only be used as a last resort since they can confuse new forum members about this forums general position on Open items and characters, and also tends to make other traders and MPers nervous about your characters and items.
Chain of Strength
17-07-2006, 07:56
@ Cattleya
This is a really good revised additon. May I ask you to see if I am done with the
New Trader Probation Period. I haven't been trading my whole time joined on these boards. But any person I've traded with hasn't had any problems with my items. I'm very honest and legitimate. a reference can be wilypueo.
thanks in advance,
CoS
wilypueo
17-07-2006, 08:11
@CoS: Heh! But I think I have a couple more weeks before I get to 3 months from the start of my trading here, so I think I am a poor reference. Besides, as I understand it, no reference is needed, just 15 trades completed and 3 months from the time of either your first FT/ISO thread or first trade.
@Cattleya: What would constitute "has been trading for at least three months in the Single Player Trade Forum"? First trade completed or first post to the trade forum? Appreciate the work on the trade rules/guidelines BTW--I can tell it has been a lot of work. I wonder if we can also get a rarity guide up of possibly the top 10 or 20 or 100 hardest to find items? or possibly a consensus and list of the most valuable items? Or maybe at least some words about the ATMA drop calculator.
sirpoopsalot
17-07-2006, 08:16
... hey, good timing :wink3:
I like the new rules (although I'm still somewhat against trading medium/high runes, but I think I'm in the minority on that one).
Just an idea (with potentially good and bad points) ... perhaps it would make sense to have a 'documented runes thread' here in the SPTF.
Since the SPF posts a new IFT thread once in a while it can be annoying and difficult to find a posted rune several months after the fact, and also certain threads die over time. For example, when I found my Lo rune I posted it here (http://forums.diabloii.net/showpost.php?p=3683829&postcount=121) - but sometimes the squid likes to eat old threads like that one (notice the post date, I was such a noob there were no screenies, and I didn't know the name of the bloody foothills ;).
Even if a central 'rune-find thread' is eaten by the squid a lot of traders could help verify runes posted there from personal memory (for example, the squid eats my thread but Lemming and Kab remember my post at the time, they can 'verify' it was a documented find).
PS. I already traded that Lo elsewhere - so don't PM me trying to acquire it by bypassing the current rules :wink:.
Edit: @willyp - the 10-20 hardest items are those posted in the 'prohibited during trader probation' phase. Attempting to go much beyond the first 10 items starts becoming much more subjective (i.e. is a good Tomb Reaver worth more or less than an IKSC? How about a decent Tomb Reaver? A crappy one? Etc.).
Edit2: Willyp, good point on keeping the rune trades in the open - that certainly is a strong argument in favor of the new policies.
wilypueo
17-07-2006, 08:27
@sirpoopsalot: Hrm, I agree with what you say about it being too problematic to come up with a top 100 and the restricted list serves the function well enough. Some words on how to use the ATMA drop calculator might still be in order though. Also understand the trepidtation on rune trading, but I am for it mainly because if I do trade a HR, I want it done in the out in the open.
I read through the new ruleset proposal, and I think it's an improvement over the current rules, because
- Low runes can be traded alongside PGems, crafters rejoice!
- The top-tier items/runes can only be traded if you're prepared to invest time and effort into becoming a trusted member here.
- A nice outline of how to run an auction is included in the new rules.
Edit: Forgot to mention, I think this current draft can be be finalized.
But I'm quite affraid with the new rules our barter system value will be replaced with runes as value measurer.
If you're referring to the common currency in the BNet trading forums, I don't think that will happen here, since mid to high runes are very uncommon here.
I also think that the barter system will still hold, since some people might give, e.g., a Pul for a Reaper's Toll, but others might not. Value is still in the eye of the beholder.
Developing an ATMA-based inverse drop value system could be an interesting excercise though.
Final remark: I agree with wilypueo. If one trades for a Ber (??!!!), it's better that it's documented.
Cattleya: any idea on the date of this ruleset replacing the old one?
The new rules look very good, and it's almost as if people's comments have been listened to:shocked::wink3:
I'm really not worried at all about runes taking over as a currency, at a certain other place they've always been tradeable and haven't become a currency. Of course I'm probably in a minority when I say I wouldn't mind runes becoming a currency here though if they did, just for the sake of conveniance.
One problem I can potentially see is the distortion in values of runes that could come from heavy HF rushing, leading to very different values placed on the mid-high (I'm mainly thinking of the Ist-Ohm runes here) runes by different people.
necrolemming
18-07-2006, 20:34
<3 Cat and new rules. SPF mods > Arena.net game developers. :grin:
Requiring all trades involving med-high runes to be posted in public (as some PM trades currently are) sounds gg to me.
Cattleya: any idea on the date of this ruleset replacing the old one?
Yea, me too eagerly waiting :smiley:
The probation period ends after the trader has completed 15 trades and has been trading for at least three months in the Single Player Trade Forum.
Nice, much better than first version.
I just traded a for a Ber rune, and with the one I already had, I cubed up a Jah. I took the Ohm rune I found a while back and posted about here and made a Faith bow (paste in ATMA readout) and now I'm going to give it to Cattleya.
Inserting subliminal messages into rules? :smiley:
Players should be aware that trading items or playing characters on Open Battle.net with strangers or with an unknown host will prevent any affected characters and items from being able to enter the SPF trading and MP pool.
Is there any chance to change description of this forum to "Trading for DII.net Single Player Community"? Current description only confuses people, IMHO it should be clear from the start that items from open bnet cannot be traded here.
One problem I can potentially see is the distortion in values of runes that could come from heavy HF rushing, leading to very different values placed on the mid-high (I'm mainly thinking of the Ist-Ohm runes here) runes by different people.
HF Rushing with modified DLL snuck up on some players, but I can't recall anyone having found hapiness because of it. The higher high runes (Ber and upward) are still unattainable, making Lo the top end rune to be reached (in practice), it's not really adding anything. The means to do HF on a significant level are quite a modification of the game, so compromising (my concept of) legitness. I therefore propose a ban on the Hellforge rushing which involves multiple rushees on the same computer/same network.
HF Rushing with modified DLL snuck up on some players, but I can't recall anyone having found hapiness because of it.
I really have no idea what this means.
The means to do HF on a significant level are quite a modification of the game, so compromising (my concept of) legitness. I therefore propose a ban on the Hellforge rushing which involves multiple rushees on the same computer/same network.
That's absurd in so many ways I just don't how to respond. :rolleyes:
HF Rushing with modified DLL snuck up on some players, but I can't recall anyone having found hapiness because of it. The higher high runes (Ber and upward) are still unattainable, making Lo the top end rune to be reached (in practice)...
Ber and upwards aren't unattainable, just a lot of dedication to HF rushing. At 2.5 hours per set of characters with an average 1 Gul per set that's 80 hours for a Ber. Compared to say levelling a character to 99 it isn't anywhere near as long a time.
...it's not really adding anything. The means to do HF on a significant level are quite a modification of the game, so compromising (my concept of) legitness. I therefore propose a ban on the Hellforge rushing which involves multiple rushees on the same computer/same network.
I disagree with this as well. HF rushing can be done with no modifications to the game itself at all. All it takes is a dual install of D2. You can run multiple copies of D2 on the same computer using fast-user switching on WinXP, so technically the .dll file isn't needed, it just makes it more convenient. I wouldn't mind a ban on trading HF rushed runes though, but I don't think it'll be necessary, maybe just making sure you label them as HF rushed, if there is a problem (which I think is unlikely) with them distorting values?
sirpoopsalot
19-07-2006, 02:47
@nepeta
Even though I'm also against HF rushing by running multiple D2 instances on one box (it seems like a hack, IMO), I don't think banning rushes would ever be accepted by this community. If a ban was adopted I'm certain that rushed HR's would still be traded via PM - which kindof defeats the benefit of 'tracking public rune trading'.
Personally, I'm not as concerned with high runes (even HF rush runes) taking over as much as I am concerned about medium runes like Pul's and Um's.
A. I suspect that these are just high enough to be dupe-worthy
B. A couple of them could easily tip an auction in one persons favor
C. They're also just low enough that a lot of people don't consider them extremely significant finds that are worth documenting...
A+B+C = (high) potential for trouble... :undecided:
Good rule set Cat, but I still have issues with the probationary period.
Specifically:
1) 15 trades PLUS 3 months trading (not forum) history
From a personal point of view I think that is overkill, particularly if you are saying traders still have the right not to trade with anyone.
I would urge you to make this FORUM history; that's plenty of opportunity to catch naughties particularly when pat/mat threads are posted.
2) the items on the 'probationary cannot trade list'
I don't understand why they were chosen; they seem quite random. I think I have already traded one of those charms and when these rules come in, I can't?
As a relative newcomer to the *trade* forum, I don't expect to win the argument but I have to say it seems quite unfair. I think these rules will penalize little lurkers like me who stay around for ages, gather items in Sp and very occasionally trade.
Oh and by saying everyone before June 2005 is exempt means that it will be harder and harder for someone to meet that requirement. Good for AE though.
Don't get me wrong, we all want to be safe whilst trading but I just feel that some of the new rules are arbitary.
sirpoopsalot
19-07-2006, 09:16
I see your points, Thyiad, and they are somewhat justified...
... but the list of prohibited items is pretty much the very top-end equipment of the SPF. (Formerly) active and experienced traders are usually aware of this, and that's probably why the prohibited items list hasn't been debated too much.
As you're probably aware, many people are quite sceptical of newcomers coming in and trying to trade top-end items, so in any case it might not be beneficial to try to trade those items in your first few months of the SPTF anyways.
... as for the 3 months rule, I didn't read this carefully enough earlier... I think you have a good point about the people who post in the SPF regularily but seldom trade. Perhaps an additional alternative to the 15/3 (trading) could be 10/6 (SPF)... Really though, I feel that 15 trades is a minimum to build a decent level of trust, but if someone's around the SPF for 6 months they probably/hopefully have gained enough knowledge and respect other forumites enough to not 'taint' them, so a smaller number of trades could be acceptable.
PS. Alright, I've already thrown in my 2 cents about 8 times now. I'll shut up and let everyone else speak up. :p (and, since I'm going on vacation in about 8 hours, that shouldn't be too hard).
Thanks Cat, Hrus, and everyone who factored into whatever this works out to. Maybe this will be enough to get me trading again (don't count on it)...
15 trades PLUS 3 months trading (not forum) history
From a personal point of view I think that is overkill, particularly if you are saying traders still have the right not to trade with anyone.
I would urge you to make this FORUM history; that's plenty of opportunity to catch naughties particularly when pat/mat threads are posted.
I kinda agree with you about probation period, it could be shorter (15 trades and 2 months trading history). I still think trading history is better than SPF history, someone could post 3 months in offtopic threads and you will still know nothing about his items.
the items on the 'probationary cannot trade list'
I don't understand why they were chosen; they seem quite random. I think I have already traded one of those charms and when these rules come in, I can't?
That was also my complaint (few pages back), but I must admit that list makes sense. These items all the time go for highest price so it makes sense to put them on list (though some of them are IMHO crap compared to other items that aren't on list). I don't think that list can become smaller, only it can grow. And that would further cripple trading. Just be careful and don't trade DC, WF or IKSC with someone who's suspicious even if those items aren't on the list.
Oh, and whatever I say about probation period I risk to sound like hypocrite. I traded Death's Web in my first trade :grin:
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