Voting Machine Konspiracies!!!

[jmervyn]

Remember Diebold, and all that sunshine that was blown into nether regions regarding voting machines? I'm sure you remember - pervasive evil plots designed to deprive Amerciun voters of their precious bodily fluids, etc. etc.?

Well, buckle your safety belts (http://www.theregister.com/2006/05/14/diebold_e-voting_flaw/) everyone, the ride could get a lot bumpier...

"The call - from election watchdog BlackBoxVoting.org - described a critical vulnerability in Diebold Election Systems' touchscreen voting systems that could allow any person with access to a voting terminal the ability to completely change the system code or ballot file on the system."

In other words, you can crack the system using its own touchscreen. Marvellous. :tongue:

""This one is so bad, that we can't do just nothing," Shamos told the state's election officials at the time. "Any losing candidate could challenge the election by saying, 'How do I know that the software on the machine is the software certified by the state?'""

Personally, I find the entire situation nothing short of disgusting. Using FOSS (software like Linux), a receipt printer, and some common sense, this would have been over before it began. Instead, we have companies making bucketloads of cash peddling shaky products to stupid gub'mint, while all parties concerned blame everyone but themselves. Oh, and some "shoot the messenger" for good measure (2nd page of article).

[SaroDarksbane]

Instead, we have companies making bucketloads of cash peddling shaky products to stupid gub'mint, while all parties concerned blame everyone but themselves.
I can't even comprehend how lazy a person would have to be to fail to make reliable voting software on a touch-screen.

I mean, seriously, when you consider all the enormous pieces of software out there, how hard is it to write a program to choose one guy or the other? How hard is that to test?

/boggle

[myleftfoot]

I can't even comprehend how lazy a person would have to be to fail to make reliable voting software on a touch-screen.

I mean, seriously, when you consider all the enormous pieces of software out there, how hard is it to write a program to choose one guy or the other? How hard is that to test?

/boggle

These things will never be safe.

[Draconis]

I like how you deride people as conspiracy theorists for being concerned about voting machine irregularities while simultaneously agreeing that the entire process is deeply flawed and open to systematic and untraceable abuse.

[Dondrei]

Slipshod "good enough for government work" programming FTL. It wouldn't be that hard to make electronic booths that are reasonably secure and reliable, I just don't trust them to even manage that.

[jmervyn]

These things will never be safe.

Actually, there's completely safe & secure methods. For said "konspiracy" reasons (the "dumb" & "greedy" I already referred to) we don't intend to use them.

Consider for just a second that we Yanks file our taxes online, yet can't vote online. Regardless of the hyperbolic arguments about making people get outside their house in order to "make their vote count", the fact that we've done the former for years but can't yet achieve the latter shows you where our national priorities lie. :cry:

[SaroDarksbane]

Actually, there's completely safe & secure methods. For said "konspiracy" reasons (the "dumb" & "greedy" I already referred to) we don't intend to use them.

Consider for just a second that we Yanks file our taxes online, yet can't vote online. Regardless of the hyperbolic arguments about making people get outside their house in order to "make their vote count", the fact that we've done the former for years but can't yet achieve the latter shows you where our national priorities lie. :cry:
The difference is, if I cheat on my taxes, it affects just me.

If I cheat while voting, it affects the whole country.

[myleftfoot]

Actually, there's completely safe & secure methods. For said "konspiracy" reasons (the "dumb" & "greedy" I already referred to) we don't intend to use them.

Consider for just a second that we Yanks file our taxes online, yet can't vote online. Regardless of the hyperbolic arguments about making people get outside their house in order to "make their vote count", the fact that we've done the former for years but can't yet achieve the latter shows you where our national priorities lie. :cry:

There will never be a secure electronic method to voting. Ever.

[jmervyn]

I like how you deride people as conspiracy theorists for being concerned about voting machine irregularities while simultaneously agreeing that the entire process is deeply flawed and open to systematic and untraceable abuse.I'm loveable that way.

What I deride is the asinine claims that <pick your establishment political target> is "really" behind this massive feckup. This is sheer bureaucratic inertia, incompetence, so on & so forth, not some Ebil & Co. plot. To be in production already with equipment that can be hacked via the user interface? What rot. :sad2:

[jmervyn]

The difference is, if I cheat on my taxes, it affects just me.

If I cheat while voting, it affects the whole country.

I politely disagree. If you cheat on your taxes, the individual impact you make is not far greater than the individual impact your choice makes on the popular vote. However, we are a mercenary culture, so taxes have far more attention paid to them.


There will never be a secure electronic method to voting. Ever.
There's a review here... (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/07/08/getting_e-voting_security_right/)

[Sir EvilFreeSmeg]

I like the Iraqi's method of voting. Stick your finger in a can of paint and mark the ballot. No chance of voting twice either, that stuff doesn't come off for days.

[Draconis]

I don't dispute that a lot of the problems with electronic voting in the US are incompetence-related. The problem is that you are, for some bizarre reason, simply taking on faith that no-one has abused that incompetence to skew an election, when it has been amply demonstrated that doing so would be a trivial exercise.

[SaroDarksbane]

I politely disagree. If you cheat on your taxes, the individual impact you make is not far greater than the individual impact your choice makes on the popular vote.[/url]
So if I rigged a machine to add a million votes to my candidate, my individual impact would be small?

I think not!

[jmervyn]

So if I rigged a machine to add a million votes to my candidate, my individual impact would be small?

I think not!
Apples & oranges. If I manage to snooker the IRS out of a million dollar tax return, is my individual impact small? I'm talking about individual impact of proper conduct, and how the governmental machine views the importance of this impact. In other words, gub'mint wants your munee more than your vote.

You'll excuse me for believing the opposite should be the norm...

[jmervyn]

I don't dispute that a lot of the problems with electronic voting in the US are incompetence-related. The problem is that you are, for some bizarre reason, simply taking on faith that no-one has abused that incompetence to skew an election, when it has been amply demonstrated that doing so would be a trivial exercise.So far as I am aware, Diebold-type closed source computer voting is still not the norm. So I don't know that computerized voting is widespread enough to have impact at this point.

Of particular disgust to me is that Diebold and perhaps some others "pulled a Micro$oft", in that they claimed to open their source in the so-called "Shared Source" fashion. They did so in order to detract from the truth regarding the use of FOSS code on voting machines. In reality, "Shared Source" is nothing more than a con game; what are all but the hardiest of geeks going to do with hardcopies of proprietary code that they can't test, debug, or particularly verify are complete & accurate?

But as to your main issue, I'm not at all discounting the idea that fraud would be out of the question. I'm only saying that hand-wringers have generally claimed this ludicrous situation is something deliberately seeded in order to facilitate fraud. I think that detracts badly from the central issue, because the claim then becomes a political football and one side digs in, rather than just solving the problem.

[SaroDarksbane]

Apples & oranges. If I manage to snooker the IRS out of a million dollar tax return, is my individual impact small?
Yup. A million dollar tax return is nothing compared to electing a president falsely.

[jmervyn]

Yup. A million dollar tax return is nothing compared to electing a president falsely.

One will be audited & caught, the other will wind up in a Supreme Court and discounted. Like, you're in jail for one, but nothing happens in the other.

Even more fun... (http://www.computerworld.com/continuing_coverage/000/001/000/continuing_coverage_000001012_primary_article.jsp)

And just when I thought comparisons to M$FT couldn't be worse, we hear, "That's not a bug, that's a feature! (http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9000449)

"Diebold's machines are based on custom hardware that runs Microsoft Corp.'s Windows CE operating system." Color me so surprised...

Screw the :deadhorse: , where's that :vomit: smilie?

[Draconis]

Diebold in particular have an open and known pro-Republican bias. I'm sure you've had their Chief Executive's commitment to "helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president" quoted at you often enough ;) Their habit of employing convicted fraudsters doesn't exactly help - in 2002 they bought a company called GES. This wouldn't be a big deal, except that the majority stockholder was a guy called Jeff Dean, who wrote GES's election software, and who had spent time in jail for illegally building 'back doors' into ATM software he had worked on in the past.

Basically, I'm saying that, yes, Diebold produce sloppy products that are full of security holes. But they also have a habit of employing people who are well aware of the illegal gains those security holes can provide.

<edit>

As to Diebold-type software being the norm...


Together, ES&S (owned by Diebold) and Diebold Election Systems are (as of 2004) responsible for tallying approximately 80% of the votes cast in the United States.

<edit>

On the closed-source issue... Yes, it's a big issue. However, I would consider 'paper-free' voting to be at least as dangerous as closed-source, probably more so. After all, even if the balloting software feeds back the wrong result, a paper trail will at least allow for a manual recount. If an individual voter cannot verify by sight that their vote has been accurately, unalterably and permanently logged, electronic voting simply should not be permitted by any body responsible for the integrity of that election.

[jmervyn]

Diebold in particular have an open and known pro-Republican bias. I'm sure you've had their Chief Executive's commitment to "helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president" quoted at you often enough ;) Why, yes, you've managed to epitomize my complaint about the tin-hatted nature of this issue perfectly. :sad2: Trying to claim that this is somehow a GOP issue is not just farcical, but it discounts the bipartisan nature of the dunderheads choosing the product (at our expense).


Basically, I'm saying that, yes, Diebold produce sloppy products that are full of security holes. But they also have a habit of employing people who are well aware of the illegal gains those security holes can provide.Fine. Certainly no argument. But are we to believe that there's no other game in town? Cobblers.


On the closed-source issue... Yes, it's a big issue. However, I would consider 'paper-free' voting to be at least as dangerous as closed-source, probably more so. After all, even if the balloting software feeds back the wrong result, a paper trail will at least allow for a manual recount. If an individual voter cannot verify by sight that their vote has been accurately, unalterably and permanently logged, electronic voting simply should not be permitted by any body responsible for the integrity of that election.That's why I didn't just say FOSS was the ticket. <IF> (and that's a big IF) you have a voter reciept matched with internal records, you can verify that 'poisoning' of the machines doesn't occur. You won't be able to poison a clean install in such a way that it isn't noticeable.

The point of using FOSS is to ensure that there's no backdoors or ability to poison the pool in the original code, whereas the point of paper trail is for verification. You could even master CD's of the voting software and distribute them to all concerned. The best alternative (a dual paper trail) came up during the argument over the lack of a paper trail, when it turned out that the <ability> was there and that the vendor had simply disabled it.

[Road Ratt]

Voting Machine Konspiracies!!!

Hard to take seriously a person who purposely misspells words to make a point. :tongue:

[jmervyn]

Hard to take seriously a person who purposely misspells words to make a point. :tongue:

I'm sorry, did I give the impression that I'm seriously trying to convince any of the kollege kids that read these boards of anything? The OTF is entertainment, nothing more.

Besides, be glad I didn't use 3 K's. Or mention BLCD.

[Road Ratt]

True. I guess I'm just slow to take up new ways of internet expression as I find most of them to be very "Gumpish", sure misspelling things such a conspiracy, american, etc. aren't as gumpish as say speaking Leet but I still find them to be very bad none the less. :badteeth:

[{KOW}Spazed]

Why can't we just use a Scantron machine? Just have a bunch of buttons above a stack of sheets, you press the buttons for who you want and it marks the thing for you. The thing would be mechanical and there wouldn't be a chance of hanging chads or whatever. Simply hand your sheet to a guy that checks to make sure you only have one sheet and once he does he will put it in a big metal box.

There, {KOW}spazed's way to fix grown up's problems.

[EliManning]

We could just do away with voting for president. The concept that the population elects the president is a farce and it's doing nothing but causing trouble. People might not like it at first, but they'll be ok once they get over their attitude of entitlement.

[Ash Housewares]

We could just do away with voting for president. The concept that the population elects the president is a farce and it's doing nothing but causing trouble. People might not like it at first, but they'll be ok once they get over their attitude of entitlement.

hey we agree on something

democracy smells!

[superdave]

i have a simple solution...do away with the vote altogether....let the politicians battle it out in the thunderdome...two men enter, one man leaves!
can you imagine the ratings...added bonus - fewer politicians after "election" day.

[Quietus]

Dear god, this entire situation is just retarded. How can you screw up on doing something like THIS? Here's a VERY simple solution, one that even *I* could program, and I'm still just an amateur.

Step 1 : Network all voting machines to a single hub over a WAN
Step 2 : Send out the voting mail, give each eligible voter a 12-digit or whatever code.
Step 3 : Give everyone the option to vote the old way, or do it electronically - the booths or the internet, either way works, since you have YOUR 12-digit code.

So, what happens when someone votes? In the case of the old way, the votes are counted as they always have been. In the case of an electronic system... it feeds the vote to the single hub, which takes that information (very easy to store one twelve-digit code and an unsigned short integer.. hardly any space at all) and stores it in Read-Only Memory. No one is allowed to access that information at ALL for, say, one month? No way for anyone at all to rig the machine, no way to change votes (they're read-only, after all), and it makes everything incredibly simple. Anyone who can use a bank machine, could use this machine. Enter your name, your code, and your vote... it's that easy.

[{KOW}Spazed]

Dear god, this entire situation is just retarded. How can you screw up on doing something like THIS? Here's a VERY simple solution, one that even *I* could program, and I'm still just an amateur.

Step 1 : Network all voting machines to a single hub over a WAN
Step 2 : Send out the voting mail, give each eligible voter a 12-digit or whatever code.
Step 3 : Give everyone the option to vote the old way, or do it electronically - the booths or the internet, either way works, since you have YOUR 12-digit code.

So, what happens when someone votes? In the case of the old way, the votes are counted as they always have been. In the case of an electronic system... it feeds the vote to the single hub, which takes that information (very easy to store one twelve-digit code and an unsigned short integer.. hardly any space at all) and stores it in Read-Only Memory. No one is allowed to access that information at ALL for, say, one month? No way for anyone at all to rig the machine, no way to change votes (they're read-only, after all), and it makes everything incredibly simple. Anyone who can use a bank machine, could use this machine. Enter your name, your code, and your vote... it's that easy.

Wouldn't work, what happens when I figure out how to generate 12 digit codes for those who have died recently?

The reason voting isn't done over the internet, the complete secrecy that is the internet. Voting in person is at least a little bit harder to do.

[Sir EvilFreeSmeg]

We could just do away with voting for president. The concept that the population elects the president is a farce and it's doing nothing but causing trouble. People might not like it at first, but they'll be ok once they get over their attitude of entitlement.
Might I suggest you go and spend some quality time with www.crank.net ?

You'll feel right at home there

[zodiac66]

There was an issue with the touch screens in the 2006 elections here in Ohio.

Sorry, but my tin foil hat is around my ankles now. Diebold has contributed heavily towards the repubs. Diebold's touch screen was in dispute in the last presidential election. Diebold was also in question regarding local elections. Kenneth Blackwell- who is running for our govenor race, deemed Diebold to be wonderful. Diebold contributed to the repub party.

In Ohio, Taft is an ***. There are no bones about it. Only his family think is is worthy of any position. We have Blackwell (who is the Secretary of State) certifying results (maybe a bit biased due to the the fact that he is running for office) election.

Bah..the whole system is corrupt.

Something fishy is going on in Ohio.

Makes one wonder about the presidential election.

[EliManning]

Might I suggest...

No.

(positive integers greater than zero and less than eleven)

[Dondrei]

The difference is, if I cheat on my taxes, it affects just me.

If I cheat while voting, it affects the whole country.

Hey, you think your vote makes a difference. That's so cute.


Hard to take seriously a person who purposely misspells words to make a point.

What, you've never seen a post by JM before?


We could just do away with voting for president. The concept that the population elects the president is a farce and it's doing nothing but causing trouble. People might not like it at first, but they'll be ok once they get over their attitude of entitlement.

It's true, the parts of our government that do their job the best are invariably the unelected ones. I don't know whose idea it was to put the idiot in the street in charge, they're as stupid as they are ignorant and ill-informed. Oligarchy FTW.

[SaroDarksbane]

Hey, you think your vote makes a difference. That's so cute.
Considering how close the last couple elections have been, I know it does. =)

[Dondrei]

Considering how close the last couple elections have been, I know it does. =)

Yeah, but I was thinking more along the lines of how little difference it makes which candidate gets elected.

[Quietus]

Wouldn't work, what happens when I figure out how to generate 12 digit codes for those who have died recently?

The reason voting isn't done over the internet, the complete secrecy that is the internet. Voting in person is at least a little bit harder to do.

Those who have died recently are taken off the voter's list, and mail isn't sent to them, if I'm not mistaken. Or, to be safe, have the government generate a 12-digit code for all living voters, and all people who have died in the past year. Then you'd have to *guess* that person's 12-digit code, along with their name.

Good point, though. *Takes notes, for including features when he takes this to the U.S. government*

[myleftfoot]

True. I guess I'm just slow to take up new ways of internet expression as I find most of them to be very "Gumpish", sure misspelling things such a conspiracy, american, etc. aren't as gumpish as say speaking Leet but I still find them to be very bad none the less. :badteeth:

I just ignore both, and for some reason it's mainly the conservatives/republicans who misspell the words on purpose.

[SaroDarksbane]

Yeah, but I was thinking more along the lines of how little difference it makes which candidate gets elected.
That's the great thing about illegal voting! Who knows who will get elected?

Incoming Bush joke in 3 . . . 2 . . . 1 . . .

[alexzed]

Incoming Bush joke in 3 . . . 2 . . . 1 . . .

I'm reading this to mean that due to incorrect voting, Bush will be in power. And that's the joke, right? :grin:

This link (http://blackboxvoting.org/)covers the history of the wonderful Diebold machines...

(And a nice anagram of 'diebold' is 'bod lied'. Heehee.)

[Sir EvilFreeSmeg]

I just ignore both, and for some reason it's mainly the conservatives/republicans who misspell the words on purpose.
It's all about illustrating absurdity by being absurd. We revel in the absurdity of the hate towards us. How else can I be an evil conservative warmongering capitalist pig honky?

[jmervyn]

It's all about illustrating absurdity by being absurd. We revel in the absurdity of the hate towards us. How else can I be an evil conservative warmongering capitalist pig honky?

You forgot stupid... (http://www.zombietime.com/iq_of_2004_voters_by_state/)