Questions about C/C Dtalon/trapsin

[SelanirO]

Hello,

I've been reading up on the assasins basics for a while now, yet im still left with some questions. I must note that i'm building her according to C-Beats guide.

Equip:

Guillames
CoH ap
2x Bartucs
Mara
Raven
Gores
Nosferatu
Dracul's
Anni 'n Torch

This equip would allow me
for following according to my calculations:

50 CB
+20% AR
35 OW
5% Lifetap
30 frw
8% dr
10% Slow
lowest Dtalon ias bp with 2pt in BoS
20% Cold Absorb
34% LL
90 fhr (enough for lowest bp)
10 to maxed resists (135allres)

Now the Questions:

1. Do the kicks carry +% Slow?

2. Does the second claws fhr get stacked up?

3. What should i use as second ring. BK would give me extra ll and skill but i wonder if 34 ll is not enough already, dwarf would give me some fire absorb but thats about it. A rare dual leech would give me ml which is currently abscent in 'my' :p build and maybe some dex/str to ease up my torch/anni reqs. Than again whisp has light absorb and proc which should go off often with dtalon. I'm totally lost.

4. What to socket in Guillames? I heard max/ed don't work, just ed than?

5. What to socket in main and secondary bartucs. amn in the primary would give me nice ll boost but again i wonder if 34 isn't enough. Some rare jewel with ml? 15allres jewel to lower anni and torch requirement's again? As C-Beats build is trapping too i was considering light facets, but the myth goes they dont work, besides its a waist to put them in bartucs. Really getting clueless.

6. And the final and most important question. As the build is now i could wear all items without investing points nor in str nor in dex meaning i could put everything in vit. However i read somewhere that dtalon without heavy str investment is pretty useless. How much of this is true?

7. does the +3 dmg from sc's get carried by kicks? I bet not but this is unclear to me. What about pdmg from sc's?

Thanks in advance, hope someone has the patience to read this :)

[Arshelan]

I'd probably recommend putting a 40/15 or ed/IAS jewel in the Guillahmes. Sometimes attack speed is recommended over power. All FHR stacks to my knowledge. Second ring, I'd recommend a duel leech like you thought of, sometimes Nosferatu's wont do all for ya..As for the sockets in the bartucs, 15 res/15 IAS jwls are ideal. Again, IAS is VERY important if you're going to be melee, the IAS would also help with the traps.

Now for the Stats question. You would be pretty daft not to put str and dex points into investment. Realize that your kick damage is based off a very advanced formula where-in your STR and DEX play a KEY ROLE! You need Dex and Str with any kicksin build as it increases your damage a ton! Distribute till about str = 95 and Dex = 110 (higher AR is always good :P ). The rest = Vit. I think the max damage carries over on kicks..I could test it and get back to you on that, but otherwise, these are my recommendations :)

You might want to remember that IAS accounts for how fast you put down traps and how fast they shoot. FCR plays nothing in the speed traps are put out. you want to test it on your own plain and simple? Put up Burst of Speed and use traps. Then switch to Fade and use traps. BIG DIFFERENCE!!!

[JanusJones]

1. Do the kicks carry +% Slow?

2. Does the second claws fhr get stacked up?

3. What should i use as second ring. BK would give me extra ll and skill but i wonder if 34 ll is not enough already, dwarf would give me some fire absorb but thats about it. A rare dual leech would give me ml which is currently abscent in 'my' :p build and maybe some dex/str to ease up my torch/anni reqs. Than again whisp has light absorb and proc which should go off often with dtalon. I'm totally lost.

4. What to socket in Guillames? I heard max/ed don't work, just ed than?

5. What to socket in main and secondary bartucs. amn in the primary would give me nice ll boost but again i wonder if 34 isn't enough. Some rare jewel with ml? 15allres jewel to lower anni and torch requirement's again? As C-Beats build is trapping too i was considering light facets, but the myth goes they dont work, besides its a waist to put them in bartucs. Really getting clueless.

6. And the final and most important question. As the build is now i could wear all items without investing points nor in str nor in dex meaning i could put everything in vit. However i read somewhere that dtalon without heavy str investment is pretty useless. How much of this is true?

7. does the +3 dmg from sc's get carried by kicks? I bet not but this is unclear to me. What about pdmg from sc's?

Thanks in advance, hope someone has the patience to read this :)

1. Yes.

2. Yes.

3. Dual-leech.

4. I'd suggest an Um, myself - more resists are better.

5. I'd socket Bers - another 40% CB will go a LONG way towards making you a competent demonslayer.

6. Not true. Even with Strength investment, D-Talon won't do too much damage - most of your offensive capability will come from CB.

7. No for the +3 scs (no + damage works on kicks) and yes on the poison scs (though their duration and damage will be adversely effected by Venom).

[SelanirO]

Big thanks to you both, you cleared up things immensely in my head.
Some remaining questions though:


I'd probably recommend putting a 40/15 or ed/IAS jewel in the Guillahmes
...
As for the sockets in the bartucs, 15 res/15 IAS jwls are ideal.


a. I'm not sure if I need all that IAS. My main damage is supposed to come from dtalon I guess. I see myself using death sentry along with it for corpse explosion. As for Dtalon I will reach the last breakpoint with my equip so I don't really see the need to add that much ias.


4. I'd suggest an Um, myself - more resists are better.


b. Considering I have all perfect items i'd be missing only 10allres to maxing my resists to 75 in hell. I guess an um could be usefull on short notice while I'm perfectioning her but in the end it'd be overkill. A 10-15allres gc would do the trick or maybe the dual leech ring will compensate this and leave place for 40 ed jewel or perhaps even a jah in guillames if I put all points in vitality (cta on the switch would be lovely:jig: ). Correct me if I'm missing something please.


5. I'd socket Bers - another 40% CB will go a LONG way towards making you a competent demonslayer.


c. Brilliant! Exactly what I was looking for. Only I'm not sure now if the ber cb of second claw is gonna be carried to the kicks. I'm gonna try to look it up in the stickies once I finish this post.

Edit: Hmmz I checked the Kicking basics sticky and it seems that second claw doesen't carry the cb so I don't see how you meant to get 40% extra CB. Did I misinterpret something?


6. Not true. Even with Strength investment, D-Talon won't do too much damage - most of your offensive capability will come from CB.


d. Great, but does that mean that I can leave both str and dex based safely?
Also I wasn't planning on using Venom. Does it add to PvM capabilities in your opinion? I heard opinions on this differ. If so I think I'll max it and refrain from using pdmg charms and adding extra trap synergy.

e. If str/dex don't have much effect, +dmg doesen't work and pdmg is diminished by venom, what charms are best to use? I'm gonna use several MA skillers to reach Dtalon breakpoints but I'm clueless of what to use for the sc places that will be left.

Thanks a million, really :flowers:

[Arshelan]

I'd like to clear up about the STR/DEX thing...Direct from Arreat Summit...

Kick Damage
MinDamage=(str+dex-20)/4)*(100+skill_bonus)/100 + BootMinDam*(100+str*StrBonus/100+skill_bonus)/100

MaxDamage=(str+dex-20)/3)*(100+skill_bonus)/100 + BootMaxDam*(100+str*StrBonus/100+skill_bonus)/100

if Dex/Str dont matter much, I fail to see it with that fomula in mind. Also, all the IAS in the world is better than dealing the godly amount of damage equal to that of a fully built up Lightning sorc with an infinity merc. Trust me, Zealots would even take more IAS over maxed out Damage due to the number of attacks one gets off versus damage. It comes down to basic logic: you poke an opponent and slash him, he's bleeding profusively by the end and can barely move. This is easy to do. However, 1 big hit would be more efficient, but in the end is much harder to accomplish. Hitting an opponent multiple times before he even gets 1 attack off with CB reduces the HP to Zero QUITE QUICKLY. Another reason I say all the IAS? Your traps fire based on your IAS and your trap Layout speed is based on IAS. Quicker firing traps and quicker get the traps out allows for quicker death and hell to be raised. I hope this clears up my reasoning from before. Trust me, IAS takes precedence over damage anyday.

[SelanirO]

Well I think the point is that Dtalon kicker is manly used through applying CB and releasing procs very effectively. Ofcource investing in strength would raise the damage of my kicks but it wouldn't be noticable in hell perhaps.

As for Ias, I reached my last bp for Dtalon with current equip so my kicks wont get faster no matter what. I don't use firetraps, only DS/LS. I think LS is more of a secondary skill with this build as it's mainly a kicker, the damage won't be humongous anyway as I won't have points left for synergies.

Edit: Hitting will not be much of a problem as Dtalon has good ar bonuses. Besides it hits 7 times in one sequence.

[ilkori]

Don't put a Ber in both claws! I just had to say that. You did read the sticky correctly. Combat mods only apply from one claw. I'd also read the other sticky where it mentions your fastest attack speed is 7/3 and not actually 7/2.

C-Beat's hybrid guide is excellent. As a quick rundown for what this girl should look like in the end: Kicks are for taking down single monsters very quickly, while Lightning Sentry mows down groups. Once the bodies hit the floor, then Death Sentry does any clean-up needed.

Damage from kicks is almost entirely Crushing Blow. The physical aspect is difficult to increase significantly, and honestly isn't that big a deal. The point with str/dex is that your points are better spent elsewhere (i.e. vitality). That said, upgrade those Gores once you hit level 72. They require 156 str, but come with a massive damage increase for very little investment.

The power with a C/C setup is the possible +skills mods along with the ability to stay at base or near-base stats. Really, you want the +skills for Lightning Sentry (which I would max along with a synergy), and not the kicks. Long kick sequences work, but I prefer more power from traps.


For charm slots, there are several passive mods that work great. First is finishing off fhr/resists, which you already have in spades. Going on to the others, that leaves life, elemental damage, and AR as the only mods that are really useful. I'd aim for Fire/Cold damage if you could. Lightning provides higher damage potential, but isn't needed since you have traps.

[SelanirO]

thanks alot :thumbsup:

[Funguspower]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but i personally think that dragon talon does a very reasonable amount of damage, on a single enemy that is. Raw damage wise it causes 6K of damage when you hit a 6 kick lvl (30). Not all too shabby i think.

I DO agree though, that boosting it through str/dex is useless because the returns are so small. It's just that I think saying that it's damage is low is a bit overboard.

[SelanirO]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but i personally think that dragon talon does a very reasonable amount of damage, on a single enemy that is. Raw damage wise it causes 6K of damage when you hit a 6 kick lvl (30). Not all too shabby i think.

I DO agree though, that boosting it through str/dex is useless because the returns are so small. It's just that I think saying that it's damage is low is a bit overboard.

Indeed, going all-in for vitality :)

As a last question to all of you good people:

Venom or Trap Synergy? My equip doesen't leave much space for ias boosts for traps. I've been playing with the idea of investing in venom (currently 0) and shadowmaster (currently only 5 points) instad and throwing only a couple of points into LS. Don't know if i'm not destroying the build.

[ilkori]

I used to say Venom, but I've since changed to trap synergy. Most of the high lit/venom/phys guys are undead anyway. Those are the only ones you'll have any trouble with, so you may as well add a few hundred up to a few thousand to your trap damage by getting the synergy.

I use Venom at 1 point with +skills.