Trapper vs. ww sin or hybrid

[atenza]

Is it possible to defeat a wwsin or a wwsin based hybrid with a pure trapper? Maxed trap syngergies with mblast + lvl 1 fade and claw block boosted by skills. I'd have about 50-55% claw block, lvl 53 lightning sentry, lvl 34 mblast, 39% DR, max psn res. . .

If they aren't wisping could I beat a ww build by mblasting and tele'ing in and out of my own traps?? If they play defensive, my traps > theirs and if they play offensive, it would hard to land anything other than glancing ww's because if i teleport around my trap field while they are mblasted... their only option for movement is to ww towards me right?

[gunske]

you only can be ww/hybrids when u can cast mb on her ***, if they get a first hit u will prolly drain to 1hp (or even die from 1ww) and then they finish u with LS (lay and forget) or just a stupid MB

btw,
now having my hybrid for about 7 months without rebuilding
she has 7.8K LS, 7.2K WW with 18K AR (no enchant), and hit 2k hp (no bo) so if u rlly wanna pvp vs all, make a hybrid. just a little less medium LS but a vrry strong ww (venom,OW)

regards,

[asdzxc]

you only can be ww/hybrids when u can cast mb on her ***, if they get a first hit u will prolly drain to 1hp (or even die from 1ww) and then they finish u with LS (lay and forget) or just a stupid MB

btw,
now having my hybrid for about 7 months without rebuilding
she has 7.8K LS, 7.2K WW with 18K AR (no enchant), and hit 2k hp (no bo) so if u rlly wanna pvp vs all, make a hybrid. just a little less medium LS but a vrry strong ww (venom,OW)

regards,
would you tell me what is your gear. 7.2 WW 18AR and good trap damage? I would be gratefull if you tell me your build:).

[Arbedark]

you only can be ww/hybrids when u can cast mb on her ***, if they get a first hit u will prolly drain to 1hp (or even die from 1ww) and then they finish u with LS (lay and forget) or just a stupid MB

btw,
now having my hybrid for about 7 months without rebuilding
she has 7.8K LS, 7.2K WW with 18K AR (no enchant), and hit 2k hp (no bo) so if u rlly wanna pvp vs all, make a hybrid. just a little less medium LS but a vrry strong ww (venom,OW)

regards,

Fancy showing a screenshot so we can see these stats? While we can see your char so no Combat Shrine on?

Secondly, yes, its easy to beat a hybrid with a pure trapper, even if they abs a little. They abs you, you abs them, with fair teleing you will come out on top, since unless they have 102% fcr bp, you should be able to avoid tele ww without much hassle, and in the end, better traps win the day :thumbsup:

[SicHalo]

Fancy showing a screenshot so we can see these stats? While we can see your char so no Combat Shrine on?

Secondly, yes, its easy to beat a hybrid with a pure trapper, even if they abs a little. They abs you, you abs them, with fair teleing you will come out on top, since unless they have 102% fcr bp, you should be able to avoid tele ww without much hassle, and in the end, better traps win the day :thumbsup:

not really cuz firstly WW is uniteruptable which makes mb almost useless, secondly, dragonflight is a classicly used tactic to hit a trapper with and most WWsin/hybrid reach the 65% fcr bp so they are able to spam mb fast enough.

Most Hybrids should walk over a trapper with very little problems

Also those results sound like major prebuff cuz i cant see how that kida dmg can come normally

[Arbedark]

not really cuz firstly WW is uniteruptable which makes mb almost useless, secondly, dragonflight is a classicly used tactic to hit a trapper with and most WWsin/hybrid reach the 65% fcr bp so they are able to spam mb fast enough.

Most Hybrids should walk over a trapper with very little problems

Also those results sound like major prebuff cuz i cant see how that kida dmg can come normally

WW Isn't difficult to dodge unless they tele whirl, and with all my experiences 102% fcr mb with traps locks even 86% fhr sins up too much to tele.

Sure they can whirl, but simply whirling allows easy slow tele away from the trapper.

As for DF, if you have fast reflexs you'll only get hit by the actual df kick, not the ww which follows. And using soley df with its timer to kill a good trapper just ISNT going to work.

[Speederländer]

btw,
now having my hybrid for about 7 months without rebuilding
she has 7.8K LS, 7.2K WW with 18K AR (no enchant), and hit 2k hp (no bo) so if u rlly wanna pvp vs all, make a hybrid. just a little less medium LS but a vrry strong ww (venom,OW)

regards,

Please. :rolleyes:

So your character screen shows 7.8K trap and 7.2K ww and 18K AR all simultaneously? Prove it. Screen shot. And then describe your litany of pre-buffs. :wink3:

[Arbedark]

Please. :rolleyes:

So your character screen shows 7.8K trap and 7.2K ww and 18K AR all simultaneously? Prove it. Screen shot. And then describe your litany of pre-buffs. :wink3:

Agreed.

Surprised he didnt go for the full blown 13.3k Traps (virtually max possible for hybrid) :rolleyes:

Anyway, yeah, to amende my earlier post, everythign I said still stands, UNLESS the assa has skill, in which case Hybrid >>> all :D :wink:

[Speederländer]

Agreed.

Surprised he didnt go for the full blown 13.3k Traps (virtually max possible for hybrid) :rolleyes:

Anyway, yeah, to amende my earlier post, everythign I said still stands, UNLESS the assa has skill, in which case Hybrid >>> all :D :wink:

It was the claim of 7.2K ww that was most egregious.

If he's talking about converted poison damage or something, then that may be different, but he needs to say so. Everyone assumes the numbers you give are the character screen numbers unless you state otherwise.

[HappyAssassin]

Short answer, yes. Long answer, you need a LOT of skill, a very well made trapper and great namelocking skills to beat a good Hybrid. You cannot avoid whirlwinds forever with your trapper, the cast rate really doesnt protect you the way you think it will. I've seen this happen with a truly excellent trapper in West ladder this season. I lost most of my duels against him, but he was hit with quite a lot of whirlwinds during the fight. 5k life pulled him through. I think speeder can vouch for Jeriko's skills with a trapper.

[Arbedark]

Short answer, yes. Long answer, you need a LOT of skill, a very well made trapper and great namelocking skills to beat a good Hybrid. You cannot avoid whirlwinds forever with your trapper, the cast rate really doesnt protect you the way you think it will. I've seen this happen with a truly excellent trapper in West ladder this season. I lost most of my duels against him, but he was hit with quite a lot of whirlwinds during the fight. 5k life pulled him through. I think speeder can vouch for Jeriko's skills with a trapper.

This is of course true, but only when talking about the top on each realm.

When talking about in pubbies, my experience is that a 102% fcr average trapper will beat a 65% average hybrid around 80% of the time.

I've only had trouble with 1 pubby hybrid so far, and even then its mainly because I was keeping an eye out for other people coming in to steal the kills.

The one I had trouble with made very good use of predictive teleing and wwing where I was going to tele to.

[atenza]

Well, lets see.. theoretically, I don't see how even a hybrid sin can come close to beating a trapper. Lets assume both players have equal skill level, this means that most of the time (disregarding you approaching from a better angel) you will both gain a namelock mb at the same time. A pure trapper would have either higher mblast (warranting more mb shots from the shadowmaster) and/or higher faster cast. This means the trap gets the advantage as the other sin has been mblasted. If you both have traps in the area, yours do more dmg. . . and in my experience a hybrid sin will at most have slightly better survivability because of a small increase in claw block thanks to shadow gc's.

So.. if you do 2x as much trap damage vs. another sin, you should win if she decides to trap vs. trap you. If she wants to go offensive and either dflight or tele, thats also death. Dflight imo is not as effective as everyone thinks it is because the actual kick after the teleport is quite slow compared to other attacks. Considering that it is blockable and relatively low damage, DF can't win the day (also has delay). Teleport is another great option but it is hard to continuously teleport while having a swirly over your head + traps shooting at you. So... the hybrid is basically reduced to either ww'ing towards the trapper which does nothing... or glancing ww'ing shots after an occasionally sucessful teleport. All the while, the trapper is teleporting around the hybrid, can maintain a better mb lock, and is hitting with extremely high damage lightning. The wwsin has the occasional melee venom hit that will cause nice damage, and a decent lvl trap... but once again, Its only an occasional hit that cannot compensate for doing half as much light damage as the pure trapper.

My experience is purely theory but it comes off my bvc. I can only kill trappers because I can get a tele whirl on them and because they don't have the same mentality as other casters. (Trappers often try and stay in the same area and have some aversion to setting up shop somehwere else after hurting me) Even the best trappers I've fought will only relocate their traps once or twice during a duel. . . and choose to try and dodge ww's in a very small space.

If my bvc has trouble chasing down a trapper, I don't see how a hybrid fares a better chance. Barbs have leap = stun and uninterruptible, more life, higher damage, good fcr w/o too much sacrifice, more range. Hybrids only advantage I can see is that they have a decent lvl trap and mblast.

Btw... my friend told me fade reduces poison time but.. it doesn't say that on the arreat summit. Does it work like that?

[HappyAssassin]

Dueling a trapper with a hybrid is a long process. The hybrid will have to frequently move off of the trapper's map to break the namelock/trap cycle and then come in fast, hit with a ww and break off. You use your own traps to keep them off you while open wounds works, then you repeat. You can't try and tank a strong trapper with your sin unless they make a mistake. It's kinda hard to explain, but it does work. Forcing a trapper to go offensive often results in more ww hits. I talk about this a little more in my guide.

[Speederländer]

The wwsin has the occasional melee venom hit that will cause nice damage, and a decent lvl trap... but once again, Its only an occasional hit that cannot compensate for doing half as much light damage as the pure trapper.
Venom is only a fraction of a ww-sin's damage, especially against a trapper. Open wounds is key. A single ww pass can result in 1000 damage or better in total, easily.
Now, I have no comment on hybrid capability, but I would always personally rather go up against a pure trapper with a pure ghost-style ww-sin than a trap/ww. Especially if you are playing tournament style with 1 absorb item allowed. The hybrid trap damage is hit much harder by a wisp or t'gods than the pure trapper's.

[order]

from my experiences the only time a trapper can stand a chance against my ghost hybrid is if they have high level skill with namelocking and about 13k+ dmg. mb isnt that effective in hybrid vs. trapper since it can be easily negiated with a ww.

[atenza]

Hehe, good point about the open wounds, completely forgot about that althought I carry my own fury around for ES Sorcs...

But ok, I see how a skilled ww variant assasin can gain more effective hits because it is harder to absorb or dodge.. etc. But I have another question. With either one tgods or wisps, can a ww assasin hybrid or not, out tank a trapper. E.G. Trapper doesn't move and the sin short whirls her. Lets assume 46dr on the trapper, 55% claw block, 80% psn res. Try it again by addind a death's hand or andy's visage? Who would win the tank out match?

[HappyAssassin]

Why in the name of god is a trapper tanking... :undecided:

[Blocss]

I was wondering what the skills differential is between a pure ghost and a ghosting/trapper.
Are pure ghosts just WW sins? So i guess claw block and mastery along with.. master perhaps instead of traps?

[HappyAssassin]

Look at my guide for a Ghost/Trapper. Look at Speeder's guide for a ghost, but take out the kicks and substitute max'd fade. No one maxes claw block, they just get o 60% and stop.

[Arbedark]

from my experiences the only time a trapper can stand a chance against my ghost hybrid is if they have high level skill with namelocking and about 13k+ dmg. mb isnt that effective in hybrid vs. trapper since it can be easily negiated with a ww.

PARTIALLY negated with ww...If a trapper knows what they are doing then even ww cant break a good lock. Mainly since they are stunned when they come out of ww and cant break away. While they ww just tele out of range and go for more mbing / trapping.

Happy has it right, the only way a hybrid can really beat the trapper is by doing drive by whirls.

[Speederländer]

Happy has it right, the only way a hybrid can really beat the trapper is by doing drive by whirls.
Yes and no. It's not like drive-by whirls are a "method of last resort" or a desperate maneuver. Drive-bys are a standard technique against many characters and are very effective when done correctly, especially for triggering open wounds. Also, no trapper is perfect and any good hybrid or ghost ww-sin will be trapping almost as much as the trapper in order to trip up the trapper movement and allow for a triangular whirl sequence.

[Arbedark]

Yes and no. It's not like drive-by whirls are a "method of last resort" or a desperate maneuver. Drive-bys are a standard technique against many characters and are very effective when done correctly, especially for triggering open wounds. Also, no trapper is perfect and any good hybrid or ghost ww-sin will be trapping almost as much as the trapper in order to trip up the trapper movement and allow for a triangular whirl sequence.

Yeah, sorry I didn't mean it as a last resort. I meant that the only tactic which is going to be consitantly effective is drive by whirls.

The only problem with all the hybrid trapping is that the trapper does it better. So if he can lock the hybrid up then its game over for hybrid, if the hybrid doesnt get locked up, then with the traps it should force the trapper onto the defensive, so the hybrid can go for a tele-whirl to apply OW.

By the way, I am assuming an offensive trapper, since they are superior in just about every way in most duels, since a defensive trapper will usually get manauvered into whater position the other player wants.

[HappyAssassin]

One thing that's notable, if neither player is wearing sorb, a hybrids traps can have a very important impact on the duel. If the hybrid has traps out near the trapper, when the trapper tries to lock the hybrid, they start getting shot because they are standing in place casting. The hybrid whirlwinds away, generally avoiding a lot of damage, but the trapper stands still in casting animation. Good one's generally bail, saving the hybrid a lot of grief, while the bad ones (or simply the determined ones) stay in place and barely notice that their hp has dropped a long way. Ive been trap locked by a trapper and thought i was dead, until I saw "SillyTrapper was slain by Nekisi" on my screen.

With sorb on, the hybrid has to play ghost. Basically. The main difference is that the traps are hurting the trapper slightly, instead of tripping them up.