View Full Version : Why do BvC´s prefer Grief to BotD?
Topic. To me it seems that +30 all attribudes on BotD is not worth losing.. Or not? What cons does grief have over botd?
Imbecile
07-05-2006, 10:55
Grief > Botd
Topic. To me it seems that +30 all attribudes on BotD is not worth losing.. Or not? What cons does grief have over botd?
EbotdZ
Pros:
Less requirements
+30 stats
Always hits last wwbp
Cons:
only 366 average dmg is 415% ed.
GriefZ
Pros:
387.5 average dmg on a +340 dmg grief
Deadly strike
Venom
Cons:
Requirements
The +30 stats would only help with equipping fortitude+coaberber+beast ba+str belt, which would make it so that with 65 base str, perf torch, perf anni, 15 str dracs, and a >25 str beast ba you could use any belt you wanted, which would be a Dungo, which would result in total maximum of 46% DR.
But losing ~20-50% dmg is _not_ worth the free belt slot.
Also, the Venom helps you kill off ES.
The +30 to vitality is actually only +120 life, after-bo, which is pretty much nothing. Also, the str wouldn't help one bit, since most people already have like 6xish base str, like me.
So, in short, Ebotdz=low dmg, lower requirements, whereas GriefZ=More dmg, more requirements
So, it's up to you. But in reality, dmg>requirements.
Grief > Botd
Now you're not being very nice. He didn't ask which is better, he asked _why_. And I gave him the answer, so that makes me a nice person, doesn't it?
EbotdZ
The +30 to vitality is actually only +120 life, after-bo, which is pretty much nothing. Also, the str wouldn't help one bit, since most people already have like 6xish base str, like me.
How do you figure? 1vit=4 life, so 30 vitality is essentially 120 life before BO. In addition, the extra 30 dex=another 30 stat points to put in vitality instead of dexterity. Basically, you save 60 stats on the dex+str, and another 30 goes right to vitality, so 90 in all. That said, I dont disagree that grief>botd
How do you figure? 1vit=4 life, so 30 vitality is essentially 120 life before BO. In addition, the extra 30 dex=another 30 stat points to put in vitality instead of dexterity. Basically, you save 60 stats on the dex+str, and another 30 goes right to vitality, so 90 in all. That said, I dont disagree that grief>botd
+vita _does_not_ get multiplied by bo. And this +30 vita from ebotdz clearly is + VITALITY, not +LIFE. As for the 30 dex, the only reason you ever need dex on a BvC is for Widowmaker, and IIRC, you cannot use ebotdz+widowmaker at the same time, so no, the +30 dex will _not_ benefit you. As for the str, it _can_ benefit you, but it needs either very low ann/torch, or something, let's see. 138-30-40-15=53, 53+15+40=108. 108+30=138, 138+36=174. So, with my stats setup, I would benefit 65-53=12 stat points, which is 12*4=48, 48*2.39=114.72, 114.72+120=234.72. So, I would gain 234 life, but I would lose ~306 dmg _after_ PvP penalty. You consider 306 dmg worth 234 life? Well, that's up to you, but I do not.
Von Lazuli
07-05-2006, 12:00
I prefer BotD over Greif for PvM...
One simple reason: Repair costs.
For PvP, greif wins hands down.
Laz
Simple reason #2: hella leach
then again this isnt a post on which to choose over pvm :/
Simple reason #2: hella leach
then again this isnt a post on which to choose over pvm :/
I prefer BotD over Greif for PvM...
One simple reason: Repair costs.
For PvP, greif wins hands down.
Laz
Who the hell ever talked anything about PvM? I doubt BvC's doing too much PvM outside of leveling.
i already said this isnt a post regarding pvm lol o.O
EbotdZ
Pros:
Less requirements
+30 stats
Always hits last wwbp
Cons:
only 366 average dmg is 415% ed.
GriefZ
Pros:
387.5 average dmg on a +340 dmg grief
Deadly strike
Venom
Cons:
Requirements
The +30 stats would only help with equipping fortitude+coaberber+beast ba+str belt, which would make it so that with 65 base str, perf torch, perf anni, 15 str dracs, and a >25 str beast ba you could use any belt you wanted, which would be a Dungo, which would result in total maximum of 46% DR.
But losing ~20-50% dmg is _not_ worth the free belt slot.
Also, the Venom helps you kill off ES.
The +30 to vitality is actually only +120 life, after-bo, which is pretty much nothing. Also, the str wouldn't help one bit, since most people already have like 6xish base str, like me.
So, in short, Ebotdz=low dmg, lower requirements, whereas GriefZ=More dmg, more requirements
So, it's up to you. But in reality, dmg>requirements.
Now you're not being very nice. He didn't ask which is better, he asked _why_. And I gave him the answer, so that makes me a nice person, doesn't it?
does it mean that griefZ can not hit last ww bp? And about requirements, I can equip each Zerk (botd as well as grief) with base str...
does it mean that griefZ can not hit last ww bp? And about requirements, I can equip each Zerk (botd as well as grief) with base str...
GriefZ needs at least 34% IAS to hit the LWBP. As for the str question, that means you have huge +str(138-40-15=83, 83=30=53), or huge base str(83), or you are using enigma. You should be able to equip your CoA BerBer with Beast+TGod+Fortitude+Draculs+Anni+Torch.
Thanks alot, that´s all I needed to know.
ppl use grief becasue it has the higher average dmg over the BoTD also depending on where u are, excluding NL Grief is much cheaper than BOTD to roll ur own or trade. However NL prices sky rocket.
Also as pointed out the all stats on BoTD is usefull, i.e if ur a BvB and assuming ur using BoTD u can relly on that stat to give u max block or enought str to wear the rest of ur gear.
But on BvC it is not as benificial as most build a BvC to be able to equip and change items without the need to relly on too much str, i.e fight without enigma and use a forti or something instead.
Also as said the only time u need dex is when u used the Window maker but as obvious u cant use the bod and widow maker at the same time.
ppl use grief becasue it has the higher average dmg over the BoTD also depending on where u are, excluding NL Grief is much cheaper than BOTD to roll ur own or trade. However NL prices sky rocket.
Just a FYI, on EUSCNL, a 415/15 EbotdZ costs about the same amount as 380-390 GriefZ IIRC.
Also as pointed out the all stats on BoTD is usefull, i.e if ur a BvB and assuming ur using BoTD u can relly on that stat to give u max block or enought str to wear the rest of ur gear.
Not a single BvB should rely on EbotdZ for max block, unless they cannot afford a grief.
But on BvC it is not as benificial as most build a BvC to be able to equip and change items without the need to relly on too much str, i.e fight without enigma and use a forti or something instead.
The only few sources of STR which a BvC relies on: Anni, Torch, Beast, Draculs, sometimes TGod.
Also as said the only time u need dex is when u used the Window maker but as obvious u cant use the bod and widow maker at the same time.
It's Widowmaker and Botd, not Window maker and bod.
ooh i dont remeber a EBotd costing that much on NL i used to have like a 400 ed one but i cant remember price on it though hmm it prolly where its perfect.
But ladder trade its much cheaper its like half the price of EBotd on ladder and obviously more affordable to roll, if u do decide to roll.
Yeah i know u shouldnt relly on the stats for max block with botd but i was just assuming something. But saying this alot of ppl use the following technique on BvBs ive seen though Grief is better not alot of ppl know this for BvB so they build there build with this type of style in mind so it can allow u to maximise on ur health however will cause problems if u switch ur weapon to Grief etc.
Yeah most BvC build follow the tg build or for us on EUSCnl use the bb which is even better than the tg cuz u get the DR and ability to get Dex which allows u to wear angelic combo with Widowmaker vs Hammerdin etc.
Hehe thanks for finding my typos :wave:
Yeah most BvC build follow the tg build or for us on EUSCnl use the bb which is even better than the tg cuz u get the DR and ability to get Dex which allows u to wear angelic combo with Widowmaker vs Hammerdin etc.
Hehe thanks for finding my typos :wave:
Personally I'd say that you should never _depend_ on the dex from BB, since that will get you in trouble versus, say, fohers, where you would like to have a TGod instead of BB. Also, myself, I built my barb around TGod's, due to the fact that I cannot afford a BB, but yes, BB is the optimal belt, as it will allow max dr versus smiters while using a Fortitude.
Personally I'd say that you should never _depend_ on the dex from BB, since that will get you in trouble versus, say, fohers, where you would like to have a TGod instead of BB. Also, myself, I built my barb around TGod's, due to the fact that I cannot afford a BB, but yes, BB is the optimal belt, as it will allow max dr versus smiters while using a Fortitude.
True good point i built my barb based on the tg build but i also adapted for when i can get a bb cuz il have that 5 extra str to switch from bb to tg vs Foh and visa versa.
Also usefull slow, anti smiter belt :thumbsup:
True good point i built my barb based on the tg build but i also adapted for when i can get a bb cuz il have that 5 extra str to switch from bb to tg vs Foh and visa versa.
Also usefull slow, anti smiter belt :thumbsup:
Now, that's nice, but what if you won't get a BB? Then you've wasted 5 points, unless you're saving them, or are just about to lvl. Myself I think that I won't be using a BB anytime soon, since I will rather first get a better Grief (atm only 39/356), some better fcr rings (atm random ones with 64/88 mana and 10 fcr), and better charms (atm 4x 5 fhr scs, 3x AR/Life gcs, rest 20 life scs, some with mods).
Speederländer
07-05-2006, 20:06
Thanks alot, that´s all I needed to know.
Actually you need to know grief has substantial hidden damage that doesn't appear in the character screen. Grief damage is greater than BotD.
Actually you need to know grief has substantial hidden damage that doesn't appear in the character screen. Grief damage is greater than BotD.
I think I got that off pretty clear in the damage comparing. But good that you pointed it out in words. I've been posting the same thing in 2 topics, in one of them i pointed out the LCS, in this one I didn't.
+vita _does_not_ get multiplied by bo. And this +30 vita from ebotdz clearly is + VITALITY, not +LIFE. As for the 30 dex, the only reason you ever need dex on a BvC is for Widowmaker, and IIRC, you cannot use ebotdz+widowmaker at the same time, so no, the +30 dex will _not_ benefit you. As for the str, it _can_ benefit you, but it needs either very low ann/torch, or something, let's see. 138-30-40-15=53, 53+15+40=108. 108+30=138, 138+36=174. So, with my stats setup, I would benefit 65-53=12 stat points, which is 12*4=48, 48*2.39=114.72, 114.72+120=234.72. So, I would gain 234 life, but I would lose ~306 dmg _after_ PvP penalty. You consider 306 dmg worth 234 life? Well, that's up to you, but I do not.
Right you are. I really need to stop posting drunk, it usually results in me posting something stupid like I did there. I stand corrected:wink3:
Right you are. I really need to stop posting drunk, it usually results in me posting something stupid like I did there. I stand corrected:wink3:
Another reason to my huge list of Why-Never-Ever-Get-Drunk :smiley:
Now, that's nice, but what if you won't get a BB? Then you've wasted 5 points, unless you're saving them, or are just about to lvl. Myself I think that I won't be using a BB anytime soon, since I will rather first get a better Grief (atm only 39/356), some better fcr rings (atm random ones with 64/88 mana and 10 fcr), and better charms (atm 4x 5 fhr scs, 3x AR/Life gcs, rest 20 life scs, some with mods).
well im lvl 87 on the new barb and still have like 40 unused points and if worst comes to worst il try and push lvls to get that 5 str back cuz i plain to lvl to the 90s anyway, to make use of the OW and more points for life etc.
I need to get alot of stuff together my self i got a Duress im making and i need some more maxdmg/ar/life sc i also need good fcr rings.
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