Lack of Str + Invisible Items

[Andymc]

Just wondering if items still work when they're "invisible". Eg, do shields still give you blocking chance, and resistances?

[thegiantturtle]

Just wondering if items still work when they're "invisible". Eg, do shields still give you blocking chance, and resistances?Yes. The invisibility is just because individual clients don't think you can wear your items. The server knows you have charms to make up the difference and your items are properly equipped.

[Andymc]

That includes when you take your str charms off so you now have insufficient str, yup? (Just checking).

[LorveN]

yes, but re-equipping your corpse after dying and not having enough strength to do it will cause you trouble... Not worth it.

[thegiantturtle]

That includes when you take your str charms off so you now have insufficient str, yup? (Just checking).If your items don't go red, then you're fine. It's equipped to the server iff it's equipped on your screen.


NOTE: "iff" is not a typo. It means "if and only if"

[Andymc]

Oh...

I meant when they do go red...can they disappear without going red then?

I assume that means red items don't work then.

I know about 'iff'...mathematician of sorts here :)

[Quietus]

That includes when you take your str charms off so you now have insufficient str, yup? (Just checking).


No. If you are a base-strength Paladin, you have 25 strength.

If you put a torch in your inventory and put on a breastplate enigma, you can put it on fine.

If you put the torch in your stash after that, in this case, your enigma will technically hold itself on - the +strength from the enigma will remain active and let the enigma stay on. However, if you die, you'll run into serious problems with this.

Extending this - let's say this is a 20 stat torch, with a level 80 base stat paladin. 25 strength + 20 from torch + 60 from enigma = 105 strength total.

Now, let's say you have a "Delirium" demonhead helm. Required strength for this is 102. With torch + enigma, you're fine. However, if you take the torch off, the enigma will stay on (because it gives +str and holds itself on) - but your strength drops to 85. This isn't enough for the "delirium" demonhead. The "delirium" will turn to a red background, no longer show on YOUR screen, and will not give you the benefits.

Basically, if the equipment shows on your character's avatar on YOUR screen, it should be fine. For the record, if I understand strengthglitching correctly, in the above example (with torch and enigma on) neither enigma or delirium would show on your opponent's screen, even if they were showing on yours.

[thegiantturtle]

I assume that means red items don't work then.This is correct

can they disappear without going red then?Not on your screen, but yes on other people's screens. To explain why and how this works, I'm going to talk about how Battle.net works a little bit.

Diablo is a client server program. It is set up this way because of the necessity of information being secured on the servers and the lag that would otherwise be created between the server and all the players in any game. Everything is saved on the server, but only limited information is sent to each client. The client then uses that information to decide how things should be displayed and behave. If there are multiple players in the game, then limited information about each of those players is sent to your client and limited information about your character is sent to each of their clients. Information about what gear is being worn by each character is sent to every client so the characters show up properly, run the proper speed, have the proper effects, etc...

When they were developing the expansion, they did not include information about charms being sent to each client. I'm not sure if this was an oversight or a conscious performance decision (I doubt the latter). The end effect is, if you are using charms to equip your items, you know about it and the server knows about it, but the other players' clients don't know about it. If you have 25 base str, no str from your gear, and a torch in your inventory with +20 stats, then you have 45 str. The server knows this and will let you equip a 30 str req breast plate. Other clients don't know this, so they think you cannot equip the breast plate. On your screen, you'll see the breast plate equipped, but other players will see your character as being armorless.

Does that help you out?



EDIT: Yay for Math backgrounds!

[Andymc]

Perfect.

The main reason I ask this is due to the Light Sorc I'm making, which I'll be using Spirit (Monarch) on.

Among the equip I'm planning on using is CoH and those boots (forgotten the name) with 10-15 Str. Say I have 130 str without items (but including charms). Assume this is enough to equip CoH (+20 Str), and the boots (they need 91, I know that). I can still put the Spirit back on, just that I'll need to click my corpse twice, yeah?

Other players will not see me with a shield, since it relies on a Torch and Anni to give me enough str, yet I will see it and get the bonuses. If I take the Torch and Anni off, assuming this drops me below 156, I am still 'wearing' the shield, but it is totally useless, I don't get +Skills, FCR, Res, Block (yeah right), etc.

Is this all correct?

Also, turtle, without going into too much detail, you said "Other clients don't know this, so they think you cannot equip the breast plate." - This means that other players know your exact stats and gear, yeah? (Obv, only with the 'right' programs, but still...) That's wasting bandwidth, if you ask me...

[thegiantturtle]

Among the equip I'm planning on using is CoH and those boots (forgotten the name) with 10-15 Str. Say I have 130 str without items (but including charms). Assume this is enough to equip CoH (+20 Str), and the boots (they need 91, I know that). I can still put the Spirit back on, just that I'll need to click my corpse twice, yeah?I doubt you'll have to equip twice. So long as you are not using the stat bonus on a specific piece of equipment to equip it, you should be able to reequip everything at once.

If I take the Torch and Anni off, assuming this drops me below 156, I am still 'wearing' the shield, but it is totally useless, I don't get +Skills, FCR, Res, Block (yeah right), etc.Correct. If it's red'ed out, it might as well be in your stash.


Also, turtle, without going into too much detail, you said "Other clients don't know this, so they think you cannot equip the breast plate." - This means that other players know your exact stats and gear, yeah? (Obv, only with the 'right' programs, but still...) That's wasting bandwidth, if you ask me...I think it actually cuts down on bandwidth. The game just has to send the equipment once and updates as they occur. If other people's clients didn't know what you were wearing, the server would constantly have to be sending them information about how to draw each pixel instead of just running in x direction, located at y. The client server system allows the local clients to emulate the server behavior as much as possible so as to cut down on bandwidth as much as possible. Occasionally there is desynch, but Diablo II without this client server paradigm would be unplayable.

It's true, the server could send each client just necessary information: red armor of breast plate picture, horned hat, total frw, aura x, weapon swing speed, etc..., but that wouldn't be much change in total bandwidth and would have involved creating a new way for the clients to render characters. More upfront programming time for the slight gain of a couple bytes of bandwidth when characters switch equipment. Doesn't seem necessary. That it would also lessen some of the features of maphack would be nice, but not really necessary either.


NOTE: I have no experience debugging Diablo, so my information about how the system works is all second hand. My last two paragraphs are mostly supposition based on my knowledge of client server systems in general.

[Junts]

Actually the engima should show on their screen because the +str of it holding itself on is coming from something you're wearing. If you had a fortitude you were only wearing because of your torch, it wouldn't show, though.

Generally the visible glitch rarely happens with Engima involved because the str is coming from equipment in general (Your nigma lets you use a hoz which lets you use war travs which means you have 130 str cause you have like +90 from gear and everything hold itself on..til you die)

[Quietus]

Turtle - that all sounds exactly right to me. And I'm a programmer (amateur, but improving through classes). I'm afraid I'm not advanced enough to be able to guess at the difference between bandwidth used for the message "red breastplate" and the message "breastplate of the whale" - in that case, I'd imagine it's like... one byte more, since it has to send a number (the total life). In the situation they have now, all of the information is sent so that, as you pointed out, the client (the player's computer, for those not familiar with the term) can determine things like run/walk speed, colors of armor peices, etc.

Also, as a note - way back when I used to use MH, when a peice of armor was glitched, it did indeed show as red on the person's inventory screen when you looked at it. So as far as I can tell - you've nailed it all.