Question about Fire Enchanted Monsters [Archive]

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Pestomancer

27-04-2006, 01:23

I've heard some disturbing rumors about fire enchanted monsters that I wish to have some clarification about.

#1 Do the ancients in NM & Hell kill you in 1 attack (assumming you have 2000+ HP) if they are fire enchanted???

#2 Is the damage done from an exploding Fire Enchanted monster 50% Fire/50% Physical like corpse explosion. Or does it have different damage properties???

#3 Does attacking a monster with both Fire Enchanted and Lightning Enchanted trigger the corpse explosion effect everytime you attack the monster???

I actually read that one on this forum and it freaked me out the most...

I wonder. Did you manage to hit one of them? If so, was it one of the bosses?

If the one you hit (if you did) was a fire+lightning enchanted boss, that would explain the seemingly one-hit kill, because there is some sort of a bug in relation to them. It involves something about the corpse explosion damage being activated after each release of charged bolts--quite deadly for a character who is attacking the boss while within the monster's corpse explosion radius. Along with amp or an aura like might, fanaticism, or conviction, it would be even worse. A similar effect also applies to mummies and lightning beetles.

If you don't quite understand what I'm trying to describe, try attacking a FELE (fire enchanted, lightning enchanted) monster up close.

Having a few people clarify this for me would greatly put my mind at ease while i'm travelling through nightmare. Thank you in advance.

BongoFury

27-04-2006, 02:01

FE death explosion is 50% physical/50% fire.

The damage it does depends on the version you are playing, and SP or Realms. Currently it is not as fearsome as it once was. It has been seriously toned down. But it earlier versions it could kill any character regardless of build and/or gear.

stevethatsmyname

27-04-2006, 02:14

certain mobs with lots of HP can still kill you in 1 hit when they die, so you should get in the habit of giving FE mobs lots of room when they die. FE lister and FE ancients in NM or Hell for example

PhatTrumpet

27-04-2006, 02:49

Fire Enchanted bosses in all of Nightmare are not to be fooled around with, period. Blizzard "fixed" the FE bug in Hell (i.e. toned it down quite a bit) but they failed to do anything for Normal and Nightmare. In Normal, monster hitpoints are rather low so there's not much danger, but as you go through Nightmare and monsters get more and more hitpoints it can become an issue. Even in Hell it can become an issue, especially in larger games. FE + Extra Strong or FE + Cursed are the two biggies to watch out for (I've heard of relatively decent characters being 1-hit KOed by Griswoald's death explosion). FE + CE can also get you if your resists aren't very good.

The FE + LE thing you quoted is a bit more complicated. Each bolt released will carry some fire damage with it (not a big deal), but the dangerous part is when you send the monster into hit recovery. Every time you send an FE + LE boss into hit recovery, the FE explosion damage also gets released. Combine FE + LE with Extra Strong Lister in a large Baal game and everyone within range can die rather quickly.

chaca

27-04-2006, 13:38

In NM I tend to give all FE bosses as much room as possible. You just never know. Beware the council as well. Those guys have pooned more than one of my melee chars.

Matt

27-04-2006, 21:04

I for one have lost a pretty well equipped 40 something frost zealot to NM griswolds death explosion (in a 1 player game no less). Basically, as others have mentioned, make a point to be away from FE's when they die, they hurt.

I dont know exactly how the FE with CE and/or LE works (though PT seems to), but basically I know the others (the lightning bolts or the cold nova) seem to carry a LOT of fire damage on them. My rule of thumb there is to simply stay way away from the le/ce stuff and somehow kill them without getting hit by it.

-Matt

Pestomancer

27-04-2006, 23:42

PhatTrumpet

28-04-2006, 02:28

We'll ignore stunning attacks and things like Mind Blast and Shockwave for a moment:

Monsters and players alike only go into hit recovery when they take damage equal to or greater than 1/12 of their maximum life IIRC. It doesn't matter what type of damage either (can be physical or elemental, I believe Static Field is the only exception). So if your damage sucks and you're fighting big monsters the risk is relatively small whereas if you do pretty decent damage your risk is far greater. I was Jabbing Hell Lister in about a 4-player game once... the Barb next to me went down pretty quickly and I was taking about a third of my life per bolt (over 3k life with BO). I probably would've suffered the same fate as the Barb if I hadn't had decent D/A/E.

Also, the bug doesn't appear to affect Mercs at all, much like the whole Stygian Doll death explosion thing.

___

28-04-2006, 07:57

the only experience i've had this season with FE was vs Hephasto in NM, playing classic (not sure if that makes a difference)

but basically i had about 400 life and my sorcs finishing blizz popped him right on top of me (not how i planned).. and then a small delay (loading deeds screen).

hefty price to pay for some perf/flawless gems

not fun

ThunderClaw

30-04-2006, 01:16

I just had a run-in with the Fire Enchanted, Extra Fast Councilmember in Act 3's Travincial (Flamefinger) yesterday who detonated and instantly killed a level 45 Paladin with 77 Fire Resistance and 500 health--no Extra Strong, no Curses, no nothing like that. However, from the posts here and what I can tell from damage documentation, I've come to the conclusion that this was far beyond the realms of good taste; a fellow paladin of mine in melee took no damage at all, despite having less defense and lower FR than me. In my case, I'm lucky enough to play on a private realm with a lot of friends. We agreed it was a bug of some sort and restored a backup of my paladin.

However, if you play on the realms, Blizzard is likely to be far less sympathetic, even though it's their crappy programming and their incompetance with balance that brought it about. Fair warning, all melee classes: let your mercs finish off Fire Enchanted mobs. It simply is not worth the risk.

Omikron8

30-04-2006, 03:59

the problem with geleb is that he is extra strong, this gives more hitpoints which results in a more painful death explosion

and the bug where FE damage is transferred to physical attacks by nightmare monsters is unpredictable, one attack you will feel very little and the next attack might almost empty your bulb

Ankeli

30-04-2006, 16:02

Idd with the hit recovery. I blame my merc for my death 5 mins ago, FE LE pindle + laptop lag + merc = d33ds :sad2:

DmUgluk

30-04-2006, 16:38

There's also a problem w/ damaging auras. I got my sorc killed like that.
I got in the aura's range and BOOM instant death.

BongoFury

30-04-2006, 17:21

a fellow paladin of mine in melee took no damage at all, despite having less defense and lower FR than me.FE explosion is blockable. So you'll often see no damage from it, while other times, 'deeds'.

I'm lucky enough to play on a private realm with a lot of friends. We agreed it was a bug of some sort and restored a backup of my paladin.What's the point of playing HC when you just restore your character? Particularly for standard game mechanics that you judge as a 'bug'. Truth be told, you're just a Softie with a red name. Quite lame.

Oh, and private realms are against the rules of the game and this forum.

The Void

30-04-2006, 19:46

It is even more loveable if one monster spawns FE + LE + multishot... I wonder if it would be possible for one also be cursed or extra strong... either way that's nogood even for very good chars.

ThunderClaw

30-04-2006, 20:57

the problem with geleb is that he is extra strong, this gives more hitpoints which results in a more painful death explosion
Not always, it seems. Geleb was extra FAST, not Extra Strong, when he spawned in my game. I make a point as a tank to keep a lookout for extra strong mobs, since on Nightmare and above, they can school even the most resiliant of tanks very quickly.

I spent three hours searching the internet for a mathematical expression to verify the damage I'd received, considering the posts I saw here had far less resiliant characters being KOed by far MORE resiliant mobs.

I found a lot of other testimonials and a few attempts at dirty math, but none of it could justify the obscene amount of damage I'd received. And then since XStrong did not factor into the equation, it left all of us involved scratching our heads.

What's the point of playing HC when you just restore your character? Particularly for standard game mechanics that you judge as a 'bug'. Truth be told, you're just a Softie with a red name. Quite lame.

Oh, and private realms are against the rules of the game and this forum.
The other three characters i have in deathrobes on that server are entirely beside the point, I suppose. I play Hardcore because I like the challenge, the playstyle, and the adrenaline rush.

However, I don't particularly like my challenges, my undertakings, my FUN spoiled by game defects. If you can find me a supported source with a mathematical formula that suggests the damage I received was proper, I will happily delete the character that died. As it stands, with my resists and health pool, there's no evidence at all to suggest it was anywhere approaching legitimate.

Lastly, you will note that I neither linked anyone nor advertised the server I play on.

I say this for your benefit, not mine, because I don't need your approval. Ban me if you like, continue to call me a wuss if you like. I'm fairly thick-skinned, and I won't reply to a post like this again.

BongoFury

30-04-2006, 23:33

Not always, it seems. Geleb was extra FAST, not Extra Strong, when he spawned in my game.Geleb Flamefinger is always Extra Strong and Fire Enchanted.
http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act3-superuniques.shtml
I spent three hours searching the internet for a mathematical expression to verify the damage I'd received,I can't find a link to verify it, but AFAIK a FE death explosion does the monsters (starting) life as damage, half as Physical damage, half as Fire damage (like any CE). So for NM Geleb: A NM Council Member has 2416-4228 life, multiplied by 6.5 for a unique monster, and times 2.5 damage for extra strong. So upon death, Geleb will explode for (2416*6.5*2.5) 39,260 to (4228*6.5*2.5) 68,705 damage. Again, half physical, half fire. So your Pally took 19,630-34,352 (modified by any physical resistance) and 4,514-7,901 fire damage (given your stated 77% fire resistance). Now these numbers will be increased for additional players in the game, using the (N+1)/2 formula. You mentioned at least one other player, so that means the actual damage was at least 50% greater than I stated above.
However, I don't particularly like my challenges, my undertakings, my FUN spoiled by game defects.But it's not a game defect, that's the way it's supposed to be. FE was nerfed (rebalanced) on the Realms in 1.10 and in SP in 1.11 for Hell difficulty. But for NM the massive damage from FE death explosion is working just as Blizzard designed and intended it. It forces players to be more careful, and to use more varied tactics.
Ogg hit monster with club; whack, whack, whack, Ogg kill monster. Ogg hit next monster with club; whack, whack, whack ...
The game isn't meant to be this simplistic. A player should have to use different tactics in different situations. Witness Oblivion Knights, where melee characters are forced to use different techniques. The FE explosion is the exact same thing. A game mechanic that forces the player to vary what they do. It adds variety to the game. Your arbitrarily calling it a game defect is naive and simplistic. Do you also consider Okies to be a game defect? How about the Snakes in Nilly's level? Gloams? All of these are instant death dealers for the unprepared character. And all are working just as Blizzard designed them and as they intended them.
As it stands, with my resists and health pool, there's no evidence at all to suggest it was anywhere approaching legitimate.Having 500 life for a L45 Pally seems quite low to me. <checking> My L57 Pally (closest to what you have) has 875 life. And L45 for A3 NM is pushing it a little bit, NM Council Members are L57 monsters. So it seems to me like the blame for your Pally's death lies with YOU. Carelessness with a FE boss, inadequate build, and playing in an area over your abilities without enough caution. Losing your characters to such errors teaches a HC player to correct these mistakes. To rebuild their character better the next time, and to learn from their mistakes, and never do the same thing again. It's the nature of HC, lessons are learned the hard way, at a bitter cost. But when you're in the habit of just restoring your lost characters, you don't learn these lessons. You continue to play like a Softie. Folks here are use to losing characters. Whether it's through their own mistakes, or things that seem beyond their control, like lag or TPPKs. But even these things can be mitigated, you can learn to avoid lag deaths, and you can learn to avoid TPPKs. When you don't have the crutch of restoring characters you'd be amazed how much better of a player you can be. Because you're forced to. Everyone here has lost characters to the FE explosion, I've lost many. But I don't lose them any more, nor is it a big problem for most players here. So don't come here with your whiny sob story blaming your lost character on a 'game defect'. And don't expect any reaction to your restored character other than that you are a HC poser. Oh, and one more thing, this is a legit forum. The owners demand legit play, and the players here only play the game legitimately. So don't expect any respect for your cheater private realm. You're welcome to come here and share information, but keep your restored characters and private realms to yourself. Unless you want to be abused.

ThunderClaw

01-05-2006, 00:20

Geleb Flamefinger is always Extra Strong and Fire Enchanted.
He wasn't here. Perhaps it was an erroneous thing of the emulator we're using. I'll look into that.

EDIT: Upon looking into this, there is indeed an emulator bug that misreports attributes rarely. Even as a developer myself, I have absolutely no idea what would cause this. Apparantly, though, his Extra Strong attribute was still there, because that would perfectly explain the damage I swallowed.

In accordance with this, I've deleted my character after dropping my money and gear, not including what was in my stash. I was properly looted by my comrade upon my first death, so this is kosher in my humble opinion.

I haven't edited the rest of my post. I'm on my way out the door, so I don't have time for it right now.

END EDIT.

http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act3-superuniques.shtml
I can't find a link to verify it, but AFAIK a FE death explosion does the monsters (starting) life as damage, half as Physical damage, half as Fire damage (like any CE). So for NM Geleb: A NM Council Member has 2416-4228 life, multiplied by 6.5 for a unique monster, and times 2.5 damage for extra strong. So upon death, Geleb will explode for (2416*6.5*2.5) 39,260 to (4228*6.5*2.5) 68,705 damage. Again, half physical, half fire. So your Pally took 19,630-34,352 (modified by any physical resistance) and 4,514-7,901 fire damage (given your stated 77% fire resistance). Now these numbers will be increased for additional players in the game, using the (N+1)/2 formula. You mentioned at least one other player, so that means the actual damage was at least 50% greater than I stated above.

This is good math, but there are a few problems.

Firstly, your estimation for his health is very high. The other paladin was Zealing for roughly 2000 damage a zeal; my own damage is negligible, as I wasnot zealing and I only do a few hundred HP of damage a hit. He went down in about 3 zeals, so we estimated 7.5K health. This makes sense, as the bestiary of diabloii.net notes Haephasto the Armorer as having 12K in NM--battle.net reports him (Haephasto) as having 10K. He certainly didn't have any more than 10K.

Secondly, it's pretty obvious that the wildly varying damage from an FE CE means it doesn't follow the normal CE damage idea. Many testimonials I've seen have sworn to never take more than 100-150 damage from FE CE, even onl Hell, while many others have reported swallowing 500 damage frm Haephasto. I would advance the idea that we'd see far many more characters dying to FE mobs if it always did 100% of the monster's health, subject to block. Bishibosh is a good example of an FE mob who almost ALWAYS has far greater HP than any melee class that runs into him. Despite this, I've been unable to find many people saying they've died to him.

The rest of your post is a flame to me, which I said I was not going to respond to anymore. I will note, however, that as I pointed out before, I have 3 other characters in death robes. I play by Hardcore rules only in the exception of game defects.

Matt

01-05-2006, 01:28

Bongo, I dont think he's trying to be lame at all, and I dont see any reason he is. As such, I for one dont think you need to be flaming him, he admitted his mistake, and followed through with deleting the character. He seems like a pretty respectable guy, something a smaller community like this cant have too many of. Let's not drive him off with unnecessary flaming, its a bad representation of our forum. Thanks.

my $.02...