View Full Version : PvP thorns in my eyes
KaythonXE
26-04-2006, 03:59
A thorns pvp paladin. Yeah, I said it. It seems stupid, but listen a second. For strict melee, if you were and can get thorns up to level 45 for example. It's 250%+(40*45)= 2050. So after the penalty default it's 1/10. This is 205% damage returned. Is this before or after the pvp penalty, because theoretically if you do return that much damage couldn't you sit there and wait for someone to do let's say 1000 pvp damage to you and they'd get hit for 2000? Or does that 1/6 pvp penalty then apply, so it'll be like.. 34% returned?
LowLevelDueler
28-04-2006, 07:44
after the 1/10 reduction if they hit you with 1000 pvp dmg they will get 205% of that returned yes, which is 2050 dmg. though you will be close to dying also, and with gear that lets you have a lvl 45 thorns youd most likely die before they kill themselves. so it is an ineffective build and most people have high dmg reduction also so it might work at lower lvls (most likely not) but against higher you weill get raped unfortunately :(
after the 1/10 reduction if they hit you with 1000 pvp dmg they will get 205% of that returned yes, which is 2050 dmg. though you will be close to dying also, and with gear that lets you have a lvl 45 thorns youd most likely die before they kill themselves. so it is an ineffective build and most people have high dmg reduction also so it might work at lower lvls (most likely not) but against higher you weill get raped unfortunately :(
Not true,
just get more life than your melee opponent then you are set. gg
bluedragoon
28-04-2006, 18:49
a necro with lots of revives + edge bow + bramble armor + amp dmg + incoming wwing barbarian = lots of fun :D
Yeah but against mele Dr has the affect on reducing the thorns dmg i think so that figure u stated there could be much less than shown.
Liquid_Evil
28-04-2006, 19:17
Does Iron Maiden stack with Thorns? A Sacaren's Chance could be used to trigger it or you could cast it yourself if you played a necro.
I'd like to see your build work but I just don't think a build that relies on taking damage to deal damage will be as effective as you are thinking. Open wounds will rock the casbah against you as well.
PhatTrumpet
28-04-2006, 20:00
Damage returning skills are inefficient (to say the least, "useless" would probably be more accurate) in PvP.
Say we have a melee char dealing 10k dmg in one hit.
He nails you for (10,000 * 0.17) = 1,700 dmg after the PvP penalty.
Assuming you have no DR and a lvl 45 Thorns aura, this gets returned as (1,700 * 2.05) = 3,485 dmg.
Assuming the attacker has no DR, this 3,485 dmg is dealt as (3,485 * 0.17) = 592.45 dmg.
At this point you've suffered 1,700 dmg while your attacker has suffered 592.45 dmg. Assuming you and your attacker have the same amount of DR, you'd need approximately 3 times as much life as your attacker. Good luck with that.
Also note that having more DR than your attacker is not an advantage since the dmg returned to the attacker is calculated off the dmg you actually recieve, whereas having less DR than your attack is a disadvantage.
no ironmaiden and throns do not stack as they are different although both do return dmg to user.
KaythonXE
28-04-2006, 20:42
That's pretty messed up, the game thinks of the damage being dealt by the aura damage you're doing so it puts the pvp penalty on it. Well so much for my build. :/
MegaFlame
28-04-2006, 21:52
A thornadin would be pure vitality build so he can get something like 5.6k life.
PhatTrumpet
28-04-2006, 23:51
A thornadin would be pure vitality build so he can get something like 5.6k life.
... which would require your opponent to have no more than ~2k life (assuming they had no Open Wounds, no poison dmg, no appreciable elemental dmg, and no more DR than you). I don't think you'll find too many PvP physical melee setups with those stats.
MegaFlame
29-04-2006, 05:20
Never said a thornadin would be that successful, just saying that if it's made then it has to have high life.
even with high life, u still die to good melee since u have no block.
With shield, it reduces the thorn effects.
thorn wont be any good in pvp, it get reduced too much. 1/10 dmg return + pvp penalty + dmg reduction.
even with high life, u still die to good melee since u have no block.
With shield, it reduces the thorn effects.
thorn wont be any good in pvp, it get reduced too much. 1/10 dmg return + pvp penalty + dmg reduction.
you guys sure there's an additional 1/6 pvp penalty after the 1/10 nerf for pvp?
LowLevelDueler
29-04-2006, 10:18
i suppose it could work vs some weaker melees if you got max block, 5.5+ k life with a very high thorns aura. Id suggest having a support attack though, smite comes to mind..
yes 1/10 penalty and 1/6 penalty are included.
your screwed when they use ele dmg with there melee attacks though. eg holy shock zealot etc
A thornadin would be pure vitality build so he can get something like 5.6k life.
thats still crap what if ur facing a full dr BvC with like 7k hp this build will not work at all cuz most ppl that fight vs mele will use DR and this will reduce the dmg returned.
And as stated u would have to have no DR in order for the dmg return to be higher so now no Dr vs a High dmg smiter, zealer or Barb will equal quick death and very little dmg done to the oponments.
PhatTrumpet
29-04-2006, 20:24
even with high life, u still die to good melee since u have no block.
With shield, it reduces the thorn effects.
Shield or no shield is completely irrelevant. If the Thronadin has a shield and he blocks, he takes no damage and deals no damage. If he doesn't have a shield he gets hit, takes damage, and returns damage. The returned damage cannot be blocked.
Heidegger
29-04-2006, 21:18
You guys are all assuming that the supposed thornadin just stands there and gets hit. I can see this being semi-succesful if you smite with a grief.
MegaFlame
30-04-2006, 07:12
But the damage returned will be huge, there is no doubt about it. Many smiters have 6k+ damage, so each hit would be doing 1k+ easily, 2k returned, and 2-3 smites could be deadly to both sides indeed.
thorndin using widow + knockback ?
no need to block or DR.
just go for all damage and + life.
stoutewolf
30-04-2006, 12:43
they can use edge for more thorns and gollem from charges @ metl grid and ofcourse there is lso the helm with thorns :grin:
Lord Humongous
30-04-2006, 23:58
If it wasn't for the 1/10 nerf this would be a viable strategy. Me thinks some barb fan at blizzard cried foul.:scratch:
On second thought, if you where able to combine Thorns with Conversion and a hostile player hit one of your "Thorned" minions, would the 1/10 penalty still apply or the 1/6 Player versus Player penalty for that matter?
But the damage returned will be huge, there is no doubt about it. Many smiters have 6k+ damage, so each hit would be doing 1k+ easily, 2k returned, and 2-3 smites could be deadly to both sides indeed.
no its does not work like this at all throns and attacks like iron maiden go through alot of pvp penaulties which nerfs there effectiveness in duels.
Also 1k dmg in duel does not = 1k hp
Assuming the pala does 10k dmg on a smite which say numbers wise is like 1.2k pvp dmg this dmg returned by thrones goes through pvp penaultes and even after this the dmg is reduced assuming the opossition is using a dr setup so end dmg u could be looking at arround 200-300 pvp dmg max which is crap if the person has high life, and again this will only work if u have no Dr as Dr reduces the affects of the orginal dmg so the number will drop even lower than the previous 200- 300 pvp dmg mark.
The only way this build could have work is if the pvp penaulty did not nerf the dmg so much,the char has insane amounts of health and possibly if he has some kinda secondary attack.
O yeah even vs barbs u wil have a problem cuz Bezerk exists which means he will hit u and will not take any dmg at all as its pure magic.
MegaFlame
01-05-2006, 03:40
What the...
If a thornadin uses knock back then he would lose his point since the whole point is to make him GET HIT.
maybe a praying paladin will be better...
MegaFlame
01-05-2006, 05:42
Maybe a suicide (coviction+all facets) will be better too.
Dont get the idea wrong.
Thorn din DOES NOT want to get hit if possible.
Why would anyone want to get hit if he can just use guided arrow to attack enemy? THe thorn aura is just for the eye for an eye effect. It's extra damage.
Dont expect thorndin to just stand there... it duels like a normal pally.
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