View Full Version : hammerdins vs very gg bvcs.
sorceressgod
22-04-2006, 16:23
my hammerdin dont usually have a problem killing most bvcs or normal barbs in pvp, even when i'm killed i usually get my bod and still able to own the barb that killed me.
but today there's a grief/beast bvc that tanked all my hammers and seemingly ignored the 51% block rate(cuz i'm using a spirit pally shield) and my 3.2k life...
was killed in like 1 and a half WWs o_0.
and after i got my bod back.. was killed in 1 WW lol..
seems like the barb has more than 6k life.. any ideas how to killed that war machine other than asking me to use hoz and thus reducing my fcr? thanks.
CupOfTea
22-04-2006, 16:37
max block, 40-50 dr, desync charge and leaving invisible hammer fields, being carefull
if he tanked "all my hammers" then your damage must be to low.
Doubt any barb can take more than a couple of hits.
Dont think you need the extra fcr when batteling bvc's. i have more trouble killing exile dins with my bvc than any other fast-cast-hammer-spammer (:smiley:).
for barbs def+block > fcr imo.
sorceressgod
22-04-2006, 16:45
yeah.. my damage is only about 9.7k :S.
i considered having a ber shako in my stash to switch when duelling melees.. other than that it would be my shako with resists jewel/life.. but would +8% dr help though? couldn't afford a berber coa and it's also a lil' bit difficult altering a clvl 92 char stats lol..
mainaman
22-04-2006, 17:13
yeah.. my damage is only about 9.7k :S.
i considered having a ber shako in my stash to switch when duelling melees.. other than that it would be my shako with resists jewel/life.. but would +8% dr help though? couldn't afford a berber coa and it's also a lil' bit difficult altering a clvl 92 char stats lol..
this dmg is enough to kill anything . my assumption is he was able to aproach you from a side with no hammers atm, or he got really lucky and dint get hit too much before he killed you, did you duel him more then one time?
my bvc has 6.9k life and usually 2-3 hammers are good enough for him to die.
as for the gear HoZ is a must against melee chars, for casters you can go with spirit for more fcr as long as you have stacked res ..
moonlike
22-04-2006, 18:55
this dmg is enough to kill anything . my assumption is he was able to aproach you from a side with no hammers atm, or he got really lucky and dint get hit too much before he killed you, did you duel him more then one time?
my bvc has 6.9k life and usually 2-3 hammers are good enough for him to die.
as for the gear HoZ is a must against melee chars, for casters you can go with spirit for more fcr as long as you have stacked res ..
.... my spirit has 78 res all except fire its more than umed zaka nn stacked res^^
kingdryland
22-04-2006, 19:45
Max block is invaluable. Items with dr that you can use is verdungo,ber shako,ber hoz etc. Perhaps a stormshield isn't too bad idea either.
yeah dmg is not this issue i use a mage with that kinda dmg and i still beat high life barbs quick.
talking from BvC point of view, the things u have to have is a dr setup, maxblock and raising cast rate will not do too much.
Also another fear is a Widow maker, when they bring this out it could give u alot of trouble u may have to change ur dueling strategies like using dsync random teles etc but never do a dirrect tele name lock while he is using, if u get lucky, u can pull it off but in most case he will simply switch and WW away and land hits liek this and then rinse and reapeat his technique.
very simple. they will expect you hunt them and they tele arows tele arows
go in some house/corner and wait they come ^^
as for the bow.. i wonder if some hammer have try draculs and umed widow (since they will have the dex).. barb will have more life yes, but charge away fana+ga +ow.. dont know
very simple. they will expect you hunt them and they tele arows tele arows
go in some house/corner and wait they come ^^
as for the bow.. i wonder if some hammer have try draculs and umed widow (since they will have the dex).. barb will have more life yes, but charge away fana+ga +ow.. dont know
Lol. You know nothing. A barb _will_ use fortitude or duress with widowmaker. That will cause the arrows to do decent dmg or high ow, and the grief+beast switch to either do high dmg or cause ow.
sorceressgod
23-04-2006, 00:05
zz. now i'm facing a barb that tanked 5++ hammers.
Learn to use delayed name-lock and desync'ing. A well-played hammerdin shouldn't lose to a barbarian.
Lol. You know nothing. A barb _will_ use fortitude or duress with widowmaker. That will cause the arrows to do decent dmg or high ow, and the grief+beast switch to either do high dmg or cause ow.
as mentioned earlier this is the fear for a hammerdin to come up against as u will have a barb doing like 2k ga on Widow with high sources of OW which can really wear down and still having a high ww dmg.
And about the pala using the bow it would not work on pala cuz u will not be fast enough to switch and the barb will simply leap + tele WW u.
Desync is the only reall hope here even then a barb will simply leap on the spot or use a doom for slow to stop the dsyncing as the leap will interupt and stop name lock teles and close hammers and the HF will slow down the desyncers.
as mentioned earlier this is the fear for a hammerdin to come up against as u will have a barb doing like 2k ga on Widow with high sources of OW which can really wear down and still having a high ww dmg.
And about the pala using the bow it would not work on pala cuz u will not be fast enough to switch and the barb will simply leap + tele WW u.
Desync is the only reall hope here even then a barb will simply leap on the spot or use a doom for slow to stop the dsyncing as the leap will interupt and stop name lock teles and close hammers and the HF will slow down the desyncers.
More like 600 Physical damage, or 1200 after deadly strike.
Goes through 1/6th penalty, which is 200 PvP damage without taking damage reduction into consideration. Most hammerdins will have 18% so you're looking for ~160 PvP damage. If you also take block into consideration then you'll get an average of 1/4 x 160 = 40 damage per hit. Not much is it? I guess OW make up for it.
Without a doubt, the BvC that tend to give me problem are the ones who uses widow-maker. The thing is, I kind of gotten the principle of delayed namelock, and they're now less of a problem.
Desync'ing WW BvC gave me problems, but no so much now as I've gotten the grasp on how to duel them.
well a BvC does not use Ga mainly for dmg its to cast OW and lifetap and if venom is casted from grief to hit and do dmg like this.
At the rate the arrows are fired it this small dmg can actually become a problem as it increase changes of either OW casting, lifetap casting etc.
I know, and hence I said "I guess OW make up for it."
Fortitude is suddenly not all that great, is it?
Edit: ok, I forgot to factor Charms into the equation, but i'll do that.
Edit: your estimation is about right. If that's the case, ~70HP per hit.
For a barb wearing Fortitude, 600 damage before DS is a pretty substantial underestimate for GA if you're referring to the average. Keep in mind that all the +max charms also add to bow damage, so I'd estimate the final average damage is in the neighborhood of 1000 before DS, PDR, or the PvP penalty. I assume that SicHalo was referring to the displayed max damage on the LCS when he said 2000.
Delayed namelock tele is pretty risky to use on a barb too since you might end up tele'ing into a random WW. Even if you catch the barb with his bow out, chances are that he can move away before you land a hammer.
Delayed namelock tele is pretty risky to use on a barb too since you might end up tele'ing into a random WW. Even if you catch the barb with his bow out, chances are that he can move away before you land a hammer.
One-Sided Argument.
Edit:
as i stated earlier a name lock tele is dangerous, this is also a good reason why the bow is used as it forces ur oponment into rushing at u which mean that when u tele ontop of the barb he/she can simply Whirlwind away and hit.
You keep restricting to yourself to think that Hammerdin's have only one way to attack, and in my experience there are actually 3 WAYS?
- Name-Lock
- Delayed Name-Lock
- Desync
Granted I'm still a newbie at both delayed name-lock and desync, but the best hammerdins I've seen mixes and alternate between all 3 ways. They ARE NOT the typical Namelocking-all-day or desync'ing-all-the-way-to-andy idiots.
Don't get me wrong, fortitude is a great armor to use. Just that it sucked with low-punching weapon like widow-maker, where you get no additional ED boost (mastery, skills)
u still think forti is not all that good?? this is reasons why fortitude or duress are some of the best armour to use.
say this when the barb hits u with a WW.
and yes i was stating the average dmg shown on LSC
as i stated earlier a name lock tele is dangerous, this is also a good reason why the bow is used as it forces ur oponment into rushing at u which mean that when u tele ontop of the barb he/she can simply Whirlwind away and hit.
Unless ur a patient player and dont get worried u can try some desyncs but and maybe tele ahead of the barb or not ontop of him so that a hammerfield can hit, possibly caging the barb.
Also u have to take that a good way to stop a dsyncing pala is using long WW paths as well as random whirls and leap with doom works well.
Lol. You know nothing. A barb _will_ use fortitude or duress with widowmaker. That will cause the arrows to do decent dmg or high ow, and the grief+beast switch to either do high dmg or cause ow.
i guess you know a lot, but pls save your wisdom for you, tnx.
from the context and the life listed i suppose enigma was used. if duress/fort is used then if i was hammer i would charge away and put tons of arows on you with draculs/umed widow.. its sound ok to me but dont know on practic. also non tele barb.. dont know.. tele /hammers around you and what you will do?
Kvist actually got a point... It's relatively easy to equip a widow-maker on a hammerdin as well...
well i'm sux dueler and duel for fun only so i'm not sure what i talk but..
if the hammer put clegwals and ow only from umed widow.. slow barb, knockbacked with ow , also if the barb have no tele, desynch charge will become very important part of the duel.
nickedoff
23-04-2006, 02:13
Just don't leave your dead spot open (I think it's the bottom right of your hammering), and you should be set until he takes out a bow. When that happens, set walk on, and charge hammer him I guess.
may be easy to equip pala with widow - but hard to use properly.
if the bvc sees that you change to a bow he will leap-tele-ww and your dead.
takes some skill to tele/charge-fire arrow fast enough for the barb not to tele on you. or ?
Kvist1 is assuming that the barb uses fortitude instead of enigma (as ce olba suggested).
rofl, a bvc's widow will be mroe damaging. if they're not using enigma, it's fort/duress and you will lose bow vs bow.
and namelock teleport is not a valid method of attack; only delayed nls will work well
and namelock teleport is not a valid method of attack; only delayed nls will work well
Finally, another person on the thread mentioned delayed name-lock!
well i'm sux dueler and duel for fun only so i'm not sure what i talk but..
if the hammer put clegwals and ow only from umed widow.. slow barb, knockbacked with ow , also if the barb have no tele, desynch charge will become very important part of the duel.
hdins damage will be pitiful and slow.
at least barbs have 3/20/20s
clegs would mean that he has 75% fcr on switch, (assuming no dr sacrifice) i think 125 is a must vrs barbs.
hdins damage will be pitiful and slow.
at least barbs have 3/20/20s
clegs would mean that he has 75% fcr on switch, (assuming no dr sacrifice) i think 125 is a must vrs barbs.
vs most barbs u will be fine with 75% fcr assuming ur wearing a Dr setup as i still cant see how its possible to hit max dr or close enough without dropping to the 75%fcr.
As stated bow for bow the barb will still win. even though forti is the ideal armour for this fight, some BvCs are built on pure vita which means base str so automatically they will be using an Enigma as this is the only armour wearable so the barb will be able to leap + tele WW u with bow out.
kingdryland
23-04-2006, 17:23
rofl, a bvc's widow will be mroe damaging. if they're not using enigma, it's fort/duress and you will lose bow vs bow.
Are you forgetting that hammerdin has a very high level of concentration aura to boost arrow damage?
Uncle_Mike
23-04-2006, 20:45
Are you forgetting that hammerdin has a very high level of concentration aura to boost arrow damage?
well, pure dmg yes - but where does hdin get open wounds from? this is the difference in favour of barb I suppose.
Mike
overall, a hdin using widow is a bad idea, you guys are forgetting that the bvc doesnt even need widow, leap alone will screw the hdin and leave him open to tele whirls, i doubt a hdin will always be able to switch back to shield in time. using bow also means that the hdin will have to stand still more, and shooting arrows takes up more frames than teleporting/spamming hammers.
kingdryland
24-04-2006, 05:14
well, pure dmg yes - but where does hdin get open wounds from? this is the difference in favour of barb I suppose.
Mike
Um in widow plus gores just for the case? Concentration means that hammerdin needs no ow to cause damage actually. If this is a good idea (widow on hammerdins) it's another thing though.
vs most barbs u will be fine with 75% fcr assuming ur wearing a Dr setup as i still cant see how its possible to hit max dr or close enough without dropping to the 75%fcr.
As stated bow for bow the barb will still win. even though forti is the ideal armour for this fight, some BvCs are built on pure vita which means base str so automatically they will be using an Enigma as this is the only armour wearable so the barb will be able to leap + tele WW u with bow out.
Actually, I find that I can make a barbarian who could wear an ethereal sacred armor stone with base strength - enigma is hardly needed.
30 base strength + 20 anni + 20 torch + 15 dracul's = 85. A few bits of strength from charms, or wearing a pair of ethereal sandstorm treks, will bring you to 101. that gets you your ebotdz (please don't start on about grief, I know it's better but I play NL), which is another 30, to put on arreat, which brings you within a couple points of wearing a stormsheild, OR will get you enough str to wear a beastz. All this without taking belt, armor, or jewellry into account. I think, when I'm already looking at 180'ish strength, I can afford to wear whatever AP armor I'd like... be it duress, fort, enigma, or even my 3k defense eth prudence.
i have a bva with not so gg charms but umm... i've beat all the hdins on west ladder. I think hammerdin vs. bvc is nigh impossible vs a decent one. Hdins can't get too close w/ getting ww and can't stay away w/o getting drained by widow. Only possible chance is if you lag the barb while he has widow out. . . Maybe you could equip a grief to charge if he has bow out?? fairly unexpected manuever and in a hdin fight the barb won't have a shield. . . AR is another issue though >_<
sorceressgod
24-04-2006, 16:36
wow.. didn't knew my thread would explode into a 4 page thread o_O.
anyways, tested out some gear, and yeah... works very well against melees imho.
from my 125 fcr gear, i added into my stash~arsenal a ber shako, SS with um rune and a doom ettin axe.
the doom slows enemy attacks and speed and yeah, the +2 skills of doom helps my hammer damage improve significantly.
if i put my doom/ss on, i'll be operating at 50 fcr; but max DR in pvp is 50% right? so i think that helped...
i have a bva with not so gg charms but umm... i've beat all the hdins on west ladder. I think hammerdin vs. bvc is nigh impossible vs a decent one. Hdins can't get too close w/ getting ww and can't stay away w/o getting drained by widow. Only possible chance is if you lag the barb while he has widow out. . . Maybe you could equip a grief to charge if he has bow out?? fairly unexpected manuever and in a hdin fight the barb won't have a shield. . . AR is another issue though >_<
The hammerdins you duelled probably didn't know what desync was...
sorceressgod
24-04-2006, 18:16
lol regarding desynch i never found it ez to charge with vigor aura and suddenly switching to hammer and conc aura in split second timing...
would charging w/o vigor help to desynch hammers? at 125 fcr, i usually charge and cast 2 or 3 hammers and charge at a small distance and repeat.
I always charge with vigor, but I've heard that you can desync without it.
It's not really that difficult, just alternative between (on my key setup) Q + F and E + R
I always charge with vigor, but I've heard that you can desync without it.
It's not really that difficult, just alternative between (on my key setup) Q + F and E + R
Y can charge and desync without vigor but u have to be charging from far away, i think something like 2 screens away.
I'd say do short 1/2 screen vigor charges downwards (don't go the same direction down each time to confuse the barb, eg. left-down then straight down then left-down again or something) and release 3-5 hammers (conced, of course), repeat a few times. Equip a Doom zerk and a SS (-15 req jewel it if needed, eld it if you have the str). Now you should have high block, 50 pdr, an annoying holy freeze, and go libby and conc+charge him if he tries to use widowmaker against you. Go back to the downward charges if you see him switch weaps cuz charging through a ww=dead. Now that I think about it if you have 50 pdr and max block and 10k+ def you should be able to tank a few whirls. That's my 2 cents :)
mainaman
26-04-2006, 08:44
dont charge result in def decrease to 1/3 of the total def?
in this case if you charge through the ww with doom on especially you will get hit more and thus die pretty fast...
i dont like hammerdins but..
why should hammer do what a brb expect to be.. hammer to tele somewhear near him? cant you charge 2 screens away and with fana and umed widow do few arows, then desynch charge somewhere .. on oposite side maybe? who say you must stay at th screen of barb? barb hunt you? go in some house and hammer til the edn fo the world ^^ and charge vior is faster than guided arows
. with edited chars thei can be tested on open bnet, just put on the pala 3k+mana ^^
dont charge result in def decrease to 1/3 of the total def?
in this case if you charge through the ww with doom on especially you will get hit more and thus die pretty fast...
no its not 1/3 its 2/3 i think also u have to use charge and desyc, u cant expect to beat a decent barb without using desync and mixing with tele hammers.
annd u never charge into WW as u will die pretty fast so ideally u wanna charge next to him so that you can hit with hammers and stay relatively safe.
I always thought that when you're charging it treats you like you're running (the swing at the end of the charge counts as an attack, but while you're going from point A to point B you're running), so basically defense is zero and blocking is 1/3rd of what it is standing still. That's why if a barb intercepts your charge with WW, you take more hits than if the barb just WW'ed through you as you stood still. I haven't done enough tests to say for sure what the exact block/defense penalty is during charge, but it definitely seems to be there.
I always thought that when you're charging it treats you like you're running (the swing at the end of the charge counts as an attack, but while you're going from point A to point B you're running), so basically defense is zero and blocking is 1/3rd of what it is standing still. That's why if a barb intercepts your charge with WW, you take more hits than if the barb just WW'ed through you as you stood still. I haven't done enough tests to say for sure what the exact block/defense penalty is during charge, but it definitely seems to be there.
yeah it is there but its either 1/3 or 2/3 not to sure though
dont charge result in def decrease to 1/3 of the total def?
in this case if you charge through the ww with doom on especially you will get hit more and thus die pretty fast...
I meant charge when he's shooting GAs at you with widow; your normal conc+charge should be fast enough to desync somewhat, and you charge the barb once for some damage (since he's dueling a hammerdin the only pdr will probably be from enigma) then start hammering when he hits weapon switch. He should probably whirl at you once you've already spawned a few hammers so he'll be whirling through those.
KaythonXE
27-04-2006, 18:01
Defense remains what the defense is, but your blocking goes to 1/3. There is no way to take out someone's defense to zero, not self-inflicted anyways.
Actually when you're running your defense is reduced to zero.
But there is still a 5% chance that they can miss.
Speederländer
28-04-2006, 01:08
Defense remains what the defense is, but your blocking goes to 1/3. There is no way to take out someone's defense to zero, not self-inflicted anyways.
Defense is zero when you run.
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