View Full Version : which pays off faster nm meph or hell meph?
I'm finding it takes me so long to find the stair to durance 3 on average that NM meph runs take almost as long over all as my Hell meph runs. However, In my hell meph runs my poor merc dies every friggin single time. He dies, either because he gets bored waiting by the moat as I fry meph resulting in him wandering over to play with the fire/cold immune council uniques nearby, or because he sportingly runs up next to moat to let meph fry him on the spot from across the moat while my merc stands there stupidly, or because I try attacking meph directly and he can't quite tank meph through the whole fight. This requires that I then stop and sell at least 50k worth of items to rez him back because without the unlimited mana regen from his insight polearm I run out of mana too easily while teleporting around looking for the entrance to durance 3.
So, what i'd like to know is just how much better are the drops from hell meph than the drops from nm meph? So far both drops have sucked intensely with me obtaining no upgrades after dozens of runs at both difficulties. So far Hell items don't seem better than nm items but since neither has produced usable items that might be moot if the main difference between hell and nm will turn out to be that nothing good will ever drop in nm while something good could eventually drop in hell.
Specifically can I expect to ever get things like a complete Tals set or a gheeds from NM level? I've heard people claim it is possible but when I look up the nm meph level and the ilevel of those items it seems nm meph must be too low to drop those items. Am I misinterpreting how that works?
thanks in advance for any insight on how to choose which difficulty is likely to pay off the most the fastest.
heavenlyangel
22-04-2006, 13:00
for the meph and merc problem I have a lifetap wand at the ready :) merc tanks while I static/ blizz meph.
As for items that can drop from both, check d2data.net.
divinius
22-04-2006, 14:35
im pretty sure nightmare meph can drop the tal orb,helm, and amulet but im also pretty sure that the armor can only drop in hell mode because its laquered plate which is the elite version of gothic plate and the belt is fine spun silk which might also be an elite version
divinius
22-04-2006, 14:40
ok the tal belt is exceptional instead of elite so it also can drop in nightmare but im pretty sure the tal armor can only drop in hell
Hmm, I think the Tal's Armor can't be dropped even from Hell Meph. Correct me if im wrong.
Evrae Altana
22-04-2006, 18:51
If both your NM and Hell Meph runs take approximately the same time, why not just go do Hell runs then? Ditch the merc, use the moat trick, and don't waste 50K gold each time reviving something that's just going to become cannon fodder for Meph.
xthekoreanx
22-04-2006, 19:10
how is ur merc dying each time? i just tele up to him, and my merc stands there and in 10 seconds meph is dead.
Jason
divinius
22-04-2006, 19:42
yeh same here........i just tport on top of meph drop about 3 different blizzards while spamming ice blast in between and meph is lucky to be alive 10 seconds.............easily takes less than a full minute to do an entire meph run for me........just tele str8 to the durance 3 waypoint then tele str8 over the moat to meph
AnimeCraze
22-04-2006, 21:33
Hell meph pays off a lot better than NM for sure.
hell meph is better (yeah repeating what everyone has said...)
& you are obviousely a blizz sorc... so you really dont need a merc to tank meph or anything... you alone should be able to take down mephy in below 15sec with blizz.... *except if u wake up the other guys in durance 3... then u might have to do some teleing around to avoid getting hit by them...*
yeh same here........i just tport on top of meph drop about 3 different blizzards while spamming ice blast in between and meph is lucky to be alive 10 seconds.............easily takes less than a full minute to do an entire meph run for me........just tele str8 to the durance 3 waypoint then tele str8 over the moat to meph
number one. I'm using a stock meteorb build as this is my first d2 character ever and it got a lot of endorsements. It takes at least 15 seconds maybe 20 of non stop spamming to drop Hell meph with that build in the mediocre MF gear I have now. If I replace all MF gear with my optimal gear it decreases the damage I take slightly but does little to nothing to hasten mephs death. I find it almost impossible to keep my level 82 act 2 defiance merc alive through that entire 15 seconds. The merc is equipped with an insight scythe, a tals mask, and some godly plate that has 1290 defense but no other bonuses. Any advice you can give to shorten the fight or make the merc more survivable would be welcome.
number 2. I would very much like to know how to go straight from the durance 2 wp to the durance 3 stair. It seems that no matter which way I go from the wp, the durance 3 stair is always in the opposite direction. Sometimes the stair isn't even along the outside of the map but even when it is, it can be tough to find becuase the map isn't a nice square or regular figure but rather always seems to be a highly irregular shape that is tough to teleport around the perimeter of. Quite often when I find the stair the map seems vaguley familier but I haven't been able to tell if durance 2 is a truly random map or not. Perhaps it's not random but just has a few variations that you are familier with? if so do you know where I can view maps of all the possible durance 2 configurations? I'm definately losing the most time just getting from the durance 2 wp to durance 3.
Third, just for the record how much damage does your blizzard and frozen orb do?
how is ur merc dying each time? i just tele up to him, and my merc stands there and in 10 seconds meph is dead.
Jason
scenario 1. I just tele right up to Hell meph, and meph either immedately grinds my merc to powder about 5 seconds before i can make meph dead, or meph pounds on me instead and I get interrupted so much that it takes much longer to kill meph who eventually turns to kill my merc as above again before I can finish meph off.
scenario 2. I use moat trick and the moment meph is in range on the other side of the moat pacing back and forth unable to cast at me, my merc thoughtfully waltzes up to the moat and takes mephs frozen orbs and other attacks on the chin until my merc expires even if I spam every health potion in my belt I can't seem to keep him alive through the fight when this happens.
scenario 3. I use the moat trick and my merc doesn't seem to notice meph but a few seconds into the fight he wanders off and finds some fire/cold immune named council member off screen who quickly dispatches him and then pays me a visiti before I can finish Hell meph.
those three scenarios are precisely how my merc dies every time.
I hope that was helpful.
hell meph is better (yeah repeating what everyone has said...)
& you are obviousely a blizz sorc... so you really dont need a merc to tank meph or anything... you alone should be able to take down mephy in below 15sec with blizz.... *except if u wake up the other guys in durance 3... then u might have to do some teleing around to avoid getting hit by them...*
maybe meph runs are really the exclusive domain of blizzard sorcs for efficient killing? My sorc is a meteorb which I had read is an adequate starting sorc build for doing some MF for starting equipment.
If both your NM and Hell Meph runs take approximately the same time, why not just go do Hell runs then? Ditch the merc, use the moat trick, and don't waste 50K gold each time reviving something that's just going to become cannon fodder for Meph.
I forgot to mention that when I run NM meph I can safely use about 2x as much MF as I can for Hell meph. In that case would NM meph probably pay off with better gear than Hell meph?
Evrae Altana
23-04-2006, 06:25
I forgot to mention that when I run NM meph I can safely use about 2x as much MF as I can for Hell meph. In that case would NM meph probably pay off with better gear than Hell meph?I'd still go for Hell Meph. No matter how much MF you can cram on while running NM Meph, the fact remains that he cannot drop the bulk of the things Hell Meph can.
I'd still go for Hell Meph. No matter how much MF you can cram on while running NM Meph, the fact remains that he cannot drop the bulk of the things Hell Meph can.
so probably the best thing for me to do is commit to hell meph runs, not ressurect my merc while I'm doing Hell meph runs and load up on mana potions to make up for the absence of my mercs insight? That does sound faster, though I wonder if it will be far easier for me to die while teleporting through durance 2 without my merc to take some of the heat off of me when I teleport near a crowd.
Bah, Just give your merc Kelpie snare. If possible, Guardian angel + Kira's would help also, I guess. But just give him Kelpie snare. With that + your cold attack, he shouldn't be too fast anymore.
Just pull your merc back before he's about to die. Andidote potions work well for my merc also.
Just pull your merc back before he's about to die. Andidote potions work well for my merc also.
pardon my next noob question. is there a more direct way to "pull your merc back" than teleporting? because I find it a losing battle to try to keep him out of mephs range by constantly teleporting when I need to be spamming damage on meph. The poison doesn't usually do him in, rather it's mephs orb and lightning attack that does the number on him.
So far not resurrecting my merc has somehow cut my average run time in half. I suppose it allows me to be less cautious in how I teleport around or maybe its the time saved in managing the extra bit of selling to resurrect him. I miss insight but 8 super mana potions so far is always sufficient for the telportation through durance 2 as well as the actual fight with meph itself.
I hope days on end of not resurrecting my merc doesnt eventually make him unresurrectable though.
Hmm, Just try Kelpie and Kira's (If you can get that, shouldn't be too costy). If you get to meph, First open a Townportal. First cast orb on him, then static him, and after that, use your most damage'ing spell. When your merc is getting low levels, quickly jump into the TP and talk to the healer, then go back and kill him.
You're a meteor orb sorc, right? Then it shoul be a timed spell, and there's not much in terms of spamming. You can always cast, then tele back, cast, then tele, and repeat. Tele in a circle shape, so that meph stays consistantly in one spot.
You're a meteor orb sorc, right? Then it shoul be a timed spell, and there's not much in terms of spamming. You can always cast, then tele back, cast, then tele, and repeat. Tele in a circle shape, so that meph stays consistantly in one spot.
If I tele in a circle won't I invariably end up aggroing all sorts of unwanted monsters? It seems to me there are council members and blood lords all over the place there and the only place to avoid their attention is next to the moat, where my merc and I would be safe if he would just stay put next to me instead of going off to seek his death. Also, overall spamming fireball seems to contribute at least as much damage as the meteors alone do. How will only using the delayed spell help meph die earlier or keep me and my merc alive longer?
If you play on Uswest, I can show you what I mean...
If you play on Uswest, I can show you what I mean...
doh, all I've got on uswest is my level 14 refugee sorc from when useast died.
Just my two pennies...
Merc that survives hell meph enough time
Damage reduction (as high as you can get for him)
Maxed Resists to cold and lightning (main meph attacks).
U don't need life leeching, as Meph can't be leeched.
Suggested gear for merc to tank properly Meph is:
Rockstopper or Vampiregaze as helms (both have damage reduction)
Shaftstop as armor.
In order to get Meph slowed, I suggest also reaper's toll as weapon, very nice weapon for merc. This one improves dramatically merc's survivability.
Sorc that kills meph faster
No doubt on that, pure cold sorc with blizzard or frozen orb as main attack, and -175% cold mastery (to get meph into -100% cold resist). Lightning and Fire sorcs are crappy compared to pure cold sorcs.
I prefer Frozen orb over blizzard, as I have learned to aim orbs properly (they do a ton more of damage to meph), but I must reckon that blizzard sorcs are easier to manage.
Tin.
AnimeCraze
24-04-2006, 10:42
I agree. However, once you have Tal's orb + 2 other pieces, you should do enough damage for your merc to tank meph even if you are a meteorb sorc. Static, then spam FO and fireball.
CoyoteKid
24-04-2006, 11:28
Just kill this demon.............LMOA, going in circles, jeese?
If you're looking for a good mf target that you can handle easily, why not go for Hell Andariel? Better drops than NM Meph, and very easy for a Meteorb. You can just spam Fireball & tank her; she'll never even get to hit you or your merc.
If you're looking for a good mf target that you can handle easily, why not go for Hell Andariel? Better drops than NM Meph, and very easy for a Meteorb. You can just spam Fireball & tank her; she'll never even get to hit you or your merc.
mainly becuase I would really like to build a tals set and if I'm interpreting the ilevels right hell andy can't drop the tal bp =(
AnimeCraze
24-04-2006, 23:07
Neither can meph, as far as I know.
weirdbeard
24-04-2006, 23:10
I don't believe Tal's Armors cost that much these days Um maybe Um+Pul? Farming Hell Meph should net you enough items to trade for the runes to get an armor.
I also object to whoever (too lazy to scroll back and see) said that Blizz sorcs are far and away the best, my CL/FO does Hell Meph in under 15 seconds, and without any of that pansy moat trick stuff =P
Neither can meph, as far as I know.
it's not plus or minus 5?
hrmm, i wonder if diablo is as high of odds as baal to get that.
I don't believe Tal's Armors cost that much these days Um maybe Um+Pul? Farming Hell Meph should net you enough items to trade for the runes to get an armor.
I also object to whoever (too lazy to scroll back and see) said that Blizz sorcs are far and away the best, my CL/FO does Hell Meph in under 15 seconds, and without any of that pansy moat trick stuff =P
how much of that is due to superior gear you might have?
I don't believe Tal's Armors cost that much these days Um maybe Um+Pul? Farming Hell Meph should net you enough items to trade for the runes to get an armor.
I also object to whoever (too lazy to scroll back and see) said that Blizz sorcs are far and away the best, my CL/FO does Hell Meph in under 15 seconds, and without any of that pansy moat trick stuff =P
A pure blizzard sorc only needs 5-10 seconds to kill meph :cloud9:
st-hearts
25-04-2006, 00:09
it's not plus or minus 5?
hrmm, i wonder if diablo is as high of odds as baal to get that.
Tal's Armor comes from TC84. The highest Mephisto can drop in Hell mode is TC78.
Hell Diablo has a 0.04150702% chance of dropping from TC84.
Hell Baal has a 0.33110201% chance of dropping from TC84 and can drop up to TC87 (the highest TC in 1.10).
Hell Pindleskin has a 0.32259644% chance of dropping from TC84.
Hell Cows and many monsters in the latter half of Act 5 can also drop TC84 items.
Hope that helps.
~Hearts~
Tal's Armor comes from TC84. The highest Mephisto can drop in Hell mode is TC78.
Hell Diablo has a 0.04150702% chance of dropping from TC84.
Hell Baal has a 0.33110201% chance of dropping from TC84 and can drop up to TC87 (the highest TC in 1.10).
Hell Pindleskin has a 0.32259644% chance of dropping from TC84.
Hell Cows and many monsters in the latter half of Act 5 can also drop TC84 items.
Hope that helps.
~Hearts~
dear god, Pindleskin the gimp skeleton guy who lives on Nilathaks front porch is just a whisker below the ultimate boss in the game in terms of TC, even beating out meph and *diablo* by huge margins?
How did that happen?
I actually started out with pindle thinking that was sorta the kiddie pool of Hell boss runs and only quit it because nothing of note dropped from him despite hundreds of *very* fast runs (so fast in fact that I easily got temp banned if I didn't loiter between runs).
Why does my luck with drops not seem to match expectations on any of the bosses? Do most people not do these things in solo private games?
weirdbeard
25-04-2006, 00:59
I believe the problem with Pindleskin is he gets fewer item drops than act bosses even if his %'s FOR those drops is of note.
"Don't quote me, I'm just a tree." - A tree
I believe the problem with Pindleskin is he gets fewer item drops than act bosses even if his %'s FOR those drops is of note.
"Don't quote me, I'm just a tree." - A tree
So lets say pindle drops half as many items as baal but has practically the same TC as baal does. Does this mean that 2 pindle runs should have about the same item potential as one baal run or how does that work?
Ok experimentation seems to show that the big difference isn't number of items but the chance of the item being magic/rare/set/unique or what have you. Pindle obviously has an abysmal chance of dropping rarer items than the act bosses do even if he can theoretically drop almost anything. I wonder if this casts the advice people give about the amount of MF to shoot for in a new light. It would seem that if a player wants to mainly farm Pindle or places like the pits they will probably need an absurdly enormous amount of MF while if they mainly want to run act bosses they could get by with considerably less MF. In effect act bosses have the bennefit of having some MF "built into them" for the players bennefit whereas for monsters like pindle or the pits the player simply has to rely on brining all of their own MF to the fight if they want much of a chance of seeing anything.
One more thing, while testing this out I had my first item drop that was actually listed on the trading list as having some value (some draculs grasp gloves that give 10 life per kill and have 10% Life Stolen Per Hit).
What should be the first item I shoot for to give maximum long term bennefit either direct or indirect to my magic finding efforts that could be affordable with not much more than those gloves and some pgems in trade?
Currently I'm using crap I found on the ground after beating up on monsters or a few easy runewords such as:
Spirit crystalsword
Lore mask
Skin of the Vipermagi
Ancient's Pledge tower shield
+32% to magic find amulet swapped with +29 to all resists amulet as needed
Nagelring&+25% to MF ring swapped with a couple rare rings as needed
string of ears belt
Some rare boots that give +19% MF with several resists and faster hit recovery
Chance Guards for the kills and frostburn for teleporting to bosses.
As much as I might like to keep the draculs grasp gloves for a future melee character right now I really need to properly outfit my sorceress so she can efficiently provide other items to equip such characters with.
Thanks in advance for any pointers on what the best first item or items should be with such meager tradable items available.
tal belt, shako and ali baba wich should give a total of 60-65% + 1%/lvl
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