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Dinnin Darkblade
06-04-2006, 17:24
AKA The Hero's of the Wind

Back Story: The four stood before the tattered rogue camp. The depression and dispair soaked into thier very bones as they looked upon this hovel. Each had come from a different land and each had sought to bring justice into this gods forsaken place. However as they traveled with a caravan to the camp they had been attacked. In the strike each had had thier weapons of choice rended to dust. The sorceress's staff had been snapped in twine by the sharp blade of a corrupt rogue. The barbarians axe shattered on the hardened skin of a yeti. The necromancers wand faded of it's magic as demonic foes brought thier own unholy powers to bear. And the paladins sword was sundered by the hammer of a gargantuan man.

As the travelers talked about thier next move in the safty of the rogue camp they began to notice that the most common weapon found here was the bow. Everywere they looked the women carried them. Even Charsi, a smith of steel, made fine and equisit bows for use by the rogues. And so they approached Akara and proposed a deal. Supply the heros with bows and they would go forth and reclaim thier monestary.

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Okay now the basic non-beautified and dramatized version. Thru my times here and in diablo II I have seen Rangers, Bowbarians, Ranged Enchantresses, and even the rare Dark Ranger. I have played in an all Ranger group once, tho it fell apart due to folks not showing up. Kind of hard to get 8 people that can meet at the same time each week consistantly.

However what I've not seen is these four charactors brought together in a party, each built to support the other. This is something I'd like to try out. However the first step to forming a group like this is figuring out how each charactor can best support the group as a whole. This is were I ask you my fellow forumites for help. Below is my ideas for each charactor and thier genralized roles within the party.

Some Rules to follow when posting suggestions for the builds

1. If this group gets going we will be allowing twinking of items and gear. Good bows are hard to come by, why limit ourselves to self found with charactors that are not normally made for bows. However this will be limited to the following. Bows, Crossbows, enough gold to purchase a bow upon creation and arrows, and one amulet and one ring.

2. The bows will be the only source of damage allowed, or rather, the arrow of the bow must carry the damage. I.E. no orbs for a sorc for fire immunes, no zeal for paladins for close combat, weapon masteries for a barb are also useless, and Necro poison/bone/summon spells are off limits. The only exceptions are a sorceress Cold Armor spells and the Necromancers Curses.

3. The bow must be equipped at all times except in the event of death. Then run naked as usual to retrieve corpse. I.E. No prebuffing with staves for a sorc, no wands for curses and such, no scepters for paladin skills (what ones a ranger would want to pre-buff is beyond me), and no BO sticks for a barbs battle orders and other warcries.

Okay on to the classes

Hero #1: The Sorceress

As an enchantress the sorceress is already a master of ranged combat using a raven claw. For the most part this charactor is your standard enchantress. However since she does not use frozen orb or thunderstorm to deal with Cold Immunes she has some space left over.

Attribute Placement

Str: Enough for Ravenclaw or any other gear she finds and uses. No more than enough to wear your heaviest piece of armor.

Dex: 200 : there will always be a necromancer to cast Amp Damage so you might as well get use of the extra physical damage. Besides the extra life won't be as neccasary as you'll see later.

Vita : Everything Else : While she won't need as much life, she will still want a respectable amount.

Nrg : Base lets face it, your not even spamming Orb, so why do you need any?

Skills

warmth 20
Enchant 20
FireMastery 20
Chilling Armor 20
Teleport 1
Telekinesis 1
1 in pre-requisists

Basic Game Play: Same as an enchantress for the most part. Use enchant to boost her parties damage and inflict her own. Chilling Armor is for ranged attackers since they won't be getting close (see barb section below)

Bow of Choice: Ravenclaw or a High Phys damage bow, depending on how gameplay dictates.

Hero #2: The Barbarian

This barbarian is a bow master. He has learned how to strike with accuracy with the bow and is learned in how to keep his foes at a distance.

Attribute Placement

Str: Enough for heaviest item

Dex: 200

Vita: Everything else

Nrg; none, when does a non-singer ever put points here... do they even put points here?

Skills

Battle Orders 20
Shout 20
Grim Ward: 10 to 16 depending on what radius is needed
Natural Resist: 13
Howl: 1
Taunt: 1
Battle Command: 1
Iron Skin: 1
Increased Stamina: 1
Increased Speed: 1

Game Play : This barbarian uses tactics to take care of his foes. Grim Ward keeps the foes of his party at bay while battle orders insures any damage they do take is less seveare since they are so much hardier. Shout also keeps them safe from mundane ranged attacks.


Hero #3: The Necromancer

A dark man with even darker secrets. This necromancer has given up the raising of the dead and creation of golems. He has turned away from the poisons of his kin, and the piercing bone spears and haunting bone spirits of his kind. Instead he fights with guile and cunning using his bow to slaughter foes that are imprisioned within his walls and prisions of living bone. His curses further confuse and confuddle the enemy making them easy pickings for his team.

Attribute Placement

Str : Enough for gear, sounding familiar?

Dexterity : 200, aside from enchant your looking at pure physical damage aside from gems and other mods like crushing blow and open wounds.

Vita : Whats left goes here

Nrg : Shouldn't need to much, but if curses are draining him dry perhaps bump it up a bit, 40 or 50 should work

Skill Placement

Bone Wall 20
Bone Prision 20
Lower Resist 16
Dim Vision 20
1 in all pre-requisits

Game Play: The Dark Ranger uses his curses to further annoy and pester the enemies of his teammates. While the barbarians Ward will keep melee foes at bay there are still ranged enemies to contend with. Dim Vision is the perfect cure for this. Also it can be used to pacify an area before the party enters it by casting it at the edge of the screen. Lower Resist and Amp Damage can also be used to further inflict more damage upon the enemies of the party. Lastly, for those foes unfased by the gruesome totem of the barbarian the necromancer has his trusted bone walls and prisions to contain them while the party picks them apart one by one.

Hero #4 The Paladin

Here is were I run into the largest descision to be made. Thanks to the Necromancers Lower Resist curse even Fire Immunes are not so much a worry. So The path I am planning on for this ranger is that of fanaticism. If you think otherwise please post your reasons to go with other auras.

reasons I'm taking fanatasism

1 : Boosts everyones AR a bit
2: Boosts everyones attack speed so that means more damage over time
3: Boosts everyones damage a bit so more damage period

Reasons not to take Elemental Auras

1: They tend to attract the enemy, something we are striving to avoid.
2: Slowing is not needed when the enemy cannot reach the party in the first place
3: With Lower Resist one element (the Sorc's enchant) plus physical damage should be enough.

Attribute Placement

str: enough for gear

Dex: 200

Vitality : The rest

Nrg : Nothing, nada, zip.... gee is this familiar by now?

Skill Placement

20 Fanatisism
20 Blessed Aim
20 Fire Resist
20 Lightning resist

Genral Play : This paladin's main purpose is to make everyone on the team look good by speeding them up, making thier blows hurt more, and lifting thier arrows to thier mark, all with fanaticism. The points in the resists are to help with the paladins resists. Since you have so much left over after blessed aim ( for passive AR bonus) and Fanaticism (main aura) why not spend points to raise your max resists on the two most common damage types?



Over all for the group high damage high speed bows will be whats sought after. Everyone will want an angelic ammy and ring combo for AR as well. Beyond that, getting resists and IAS will be the main theame for gear. And with the barbarians maxed shout high defense might not be a bad idea either.

Overall the party should have a signifigant source of fire damage, physical damage, and AR from skills alone. The necromancers curses can further increase the damage of the parties bows. The barbarian and necromancer add a great deal of safty to this as well. Tho the four would have to work in unision and not be running off willy nilly I think this could work out.

Please keep in mind that this team would be played with each other alone. No other party members, and no soloing.

Any Suggestions or Ideas? Anything I"m missing?

At this time I'm not looking to form a group to do this team. That will come after I've gotten some feedback about the team set up.

BTW, Thanks to Fredsta54 for mentioning the Bowbarian to me. Got me thinking of my odd ball bow builds i enjoy. And thanks to Squiggle as well since he was the one that urged me to post this after we talked about the idea together.

fredsta54
06-04-2006, 19:40
Im in and i call the bowbarian :D

One thing, the most powerful of these is the holy shock/freeze ranger, they are actually viable for soloing river of flame in hell quickly, and hell cs slowly but surely. =P

If your gonna be a ranger, please use fanat for style points :)









Fred

Dinnin Darkblade
06-04-2006, 21:14
Im in and i call the bowbarian :D

One thing, the most powerful of these is the holy shock/freeze ranger, they are actually viable for soloing river of flame in hell quickly, and hell cs slowly but surely. =P

If your gonna be a ranger, please use fanat for style points :)









Fred
No one's calling anything Fred. This is to critique the builds and try to see if there is any other ways to make this team function better on paper.

squiggle
07-04-2006, 01:06
The only problem i see ith this is having everybody on at the sametime , so it miht take a fair bit off time to get all of them up to some high lvl's

And what does twinking mean? lol

Please use the edit button instead of making a new thread. I combined your posts. -- Dacar

purplelocust
07-04-2006, 03:16
And what does twinking mean?
Twinking is using items not found by that character, particularly at the beginning. If your level 80 MF sorc keeps finding Hsarus' Set items and handing them off to level 3 characters to help them get going, that's twinking.

fredsta54
07-04-2006, 03:35
No one's calling anything Fred. This is to critique the builds and try to see if there is any other ways to make this team function better on paper.

Mmm... well then im not interested in this tourney







Fred

Dinnin Darkblade
07-04-2006, 04:39
Mmm... well then im not interested in this tourney







Fred
I plan on trying to get a group together eventually, but want to make sure the builds are set up to thier maximum effectiveness first tho since this team will be underpowered by the standards of most folks. Thats all :-) Once we get that part figured out we'll get a group together Fred.

fredsta54
07-04-2006, 15:59
I plan on trying to get a group together eventually, but want to make sure the builds are set up to thier maximum effectiveness first tho since this team will be underpowered by the standards of most folks. Thats all :-) Once we get that part figured out we'll get a group together Fred.

I think what you have posted is more of a general guideline, onec they build their non-zon bow char, they should feel free to allocate their stat/skill pnts as they please

As for the bowbarian, ideal gear in my mind

Boneflesh
6X pemerald bow
Deaths combo + twitch to reach an ias bp, or if i dont need that much ias mabye something else
Angelic combo
3X pdiamond helm

I am thinking resists are not much of an issue with grim ward, mm, crushing blow wouldnt really help... Ar should be the biggest issue...

Meh








Fred

Dinnin Darkblade
07-04-2006, 22:33
I think what you have posted is more of a general guideline, onec they build their non-zon bow char, they should feel free to allocate their stat/skill pnts as they please

As for the bowbarian, ideal gear in my mind

Boneflesh
6X pemerald bow
Deaths combo + twitch to reach an ias bp, or if i dont need that much ias mabye something else
Angelic combo
3X pdiamond helm

I am thinking resists are not much of an issue with grim ward, mm, crushing blow wouldnt really help... Ar should be the biggest issue...

Meh








Fred
The only reason I am looking at it the way I am is because these charactors are ment to be from the school of thought that the Whole is greater than the sum of the individual parts. Hence certin set-ups would not work as well with this. Granted this mostly involves choices in the style of Ranger the paladin works as. A Holy Freeze ranger because pointless due to Ward and Dim Vision taking care of crowd control, Shock and Fire simply do not provide any benifites to the party. Also if the Necromancer and Sorceress were to branch into some more standardized form of bow wielder they would end up investing in summons and orb respectively, thus removing the theame of bows delivering the damage rather than direct use skills such as those.

Also IMHO A 6 sock P.Emerald bow for a bowbarian would likely be made less nessacary due to fanatasism upping the physical damaage of a bow (you'd want a high damage bow to take adavantage of the fana aura) and the added elemental damage of the sorceresses Enchant. Thus it would be more adavantagious to go for physical damage and build in a more "Glass Cannon" style. Going for a Poison damage on the one charactor would cause that one charactor to not be taking adavantage of th Necromancers Amp curses wich would be the more common curse thru the course of battle. Lower Resist would mainly be used against non-fire immune phys immunes to increase the damage from the enchanted arrows.

Also, while many may think this noobish of me, I personally feel resists are important in all Player vs. Monster instances. To me it is better to be safe rather than dead. Even in soft-core death means exp loss wich means that is that much longer before you level up or that much lower a level you are at a given time than what you could have been.

Also since twinking would be limited to 1 Bow, 1 Ammy, 1 Ring counting on unique armors or specific stat rares is IMHO un-reasonable. Granted I have a Ravenclaw that I would donate to the Sorc Charactor to use until a suitible bow for her could be found with IAS and Higher damage to take advantage of the fanatacism aura.

I am curious tho, what differneces in the skill set-up would you wish to make? That is after all what the purpose of this was. To get input into how the classes interact and how to make them mesh more while staying within the confines of it's theme. Rather than saying "let them build how they wish" please point out changes in one or more of the Skill Sets that you feel would make things better for the whole of the group and why you think it improves things.

After a bit of disscussion like this I would like to actually get a group together for this, meet once a week, play only together, and see just how far we can get before pulling our hair out. But first, lets get the build theroy out of the way so we would know were the group would be heading to keep the integrety of the group as the more important thing rather than the power of one.

CheeseRYummy
08-04-2006, 02:58
Maybe you should be more flexible and allow more skill allocation.

Realisticly, if want your dream team, get a group of friends. Forum groups usually don't work out.

Dinnin Darkblade
08-04-2006, 11:03
Maybe you should be more flexible and allow more skill allocation.

Realisticly, if want your dream team, get a group of friends. Forum groups usually don't work out.

I know this as I've been in a few and they fell apart. However I am asking here for specific advice on skill placement to make the group more effective. Getting a group together will probley be done via my friends list on b.net wich includes several forum members as well as others i've met on there.

nickedoff
08-04-2006, 22:27
I think having a Golem wouldn't be a huge problem, right? Clay would be the way to go, methinks.

Why did you choose dim vision?
A six (Or however many) perfect Topaz/Ruby bow'd be swell along with Fire Golem and Low Res.

What about mercs? Didjoo say something about mercs?
I looked back through and couldn't see anything :|

Bowbarians would, of course, need max leap to go with the ward.

Dinnin Darkblade
09-04-2006, 01:08
I think having a Golem wouldn't be a huge problem, right? Clay would be the way to go, methinks.

Why did you choose dim vision?
A six (Or however many) perfect Topaz/Ruby bow'd be swell along with Fire Golem and Low Res.

What about mercs? Didjoo say something about mercs?
I looked back through and couldn't see anything :|

Bowbarians would, of course, need max leap to go with the ward.
No Summons allowed. All damage must come from the arrow. skills that enhance the arrow damage is allowed, but no direct damage or summoning spells.

Dim Vision blinds the targets and thus can neutralize the attacks of ranged monsters who have no need to get within melee range. Thus are unfazed by Grim Ward.

Mercs I didn't mention because lets face it, in classic they bite. They do not travel with you act to act, they cannot use gear, and they die way to easy. Also IMHO Mercs are a type of summon anyways and thus are a no no. Granted we'd end up getting mercs in Acts 1 and 3 as quest rewards, but that is un-avoidable.

Elemental Bows damage doesn't look like it would be enough to warrent thier use since fanaticism is the aura of choice anyhow. Granted finding a rare high phys dmg bow with elemental damage would simply be icing on the cake, but when your doubling or tripling your phys damage thanks to fana whats 200 lightning damage that is not being upped by a curse. P.Topaz bows might be viable until we find bows more suited to the Fana aura tho.

And why bother maxing Leap when all it takes is 1 point of Leap Attack to have a nice jumping distance. And since your using a ranged weapon you won't attack so you do not violate the arrow delivery system rules.

purplelocust
09-04-2006, 04:38
And why bother maxing Leap when all it takes is 1 point of Leap Attack to have a nice jumping distance. And since your using a ranged weapon you won't attack so you do not violate the arrow delivery system rules.
I think that Leap Attack doesn't work with a bow, which is very annoying with a BowBarb when you are used to leapfrogging through the Arcane or the River of Flame and you have to walk around instead.

Dinnin Darkblade
09-04-2006, 06:11
I think that Leap Attack doesn't work with a bow, which is very annoying with a BowBarb when you are used to leapfrogging through the Arcane or the River of Flame and you have to walk around instead.
;
True most folks are used to leap frogging, however since this team requires it to stick together to function leap frogging and teleporting thru the CS would be deadly to all memebers of the party.

nickedoff
09-04-2006, 18:13
Leap isn't for movement, it's for knocking the monsters back. You can leap once at around level 15 leap and push them all to the edge of the screen, where you can then make a grim ward and pluck them off with your bow.

Dinnin Darkblade
10-04-2006, 01:08
Leap isn't for movement, it's for knocking the monsters back. You can leap once at around level 15 leap and push them all to the edge of the screen, where you can then make a grim ward and pluck them off with your bow.

Ahh I didn't know that the knock back radius increased with levels in leap. Now see, thats what I'm talking about. Stuff I didn't know :-)

However, do you think that might be redundent with the Necromancer using Dim Vision to blind the enemies until the Ward can be made? And does the Knockback effect work on Uniques/Champs? If it does it might be a nice back up to the Necromancers walls and prisions.

OneFromBeyond
10-04-2006, 06:09
Probably a few Paladins would help out big time: one with Fanatacism, one with Blessed Aim (for AR...assuming it will help everyone, not sure though) and one with Concentration means much bigger physical damage. Plus if you allow multiple auras, then Conviction would help as well.

To your original post, Singer's don't ever put points into Energy. I've been gone for the weekend...see you online some time.

*OneFromBeyond

Dinnin Darkblade
12-04-2006, 15:05
Probably a few Paladins would help out big time: one with Fanatacism, one with Blessed Aim (for AR...assuming it will help everyone, not sure though) and one with Concentration means much bigger physical damage. Plus if you allow multiple auras, then Conviction would help as well.

To your original post, Singer's don't ever put points into Energy. I've been gone for the weekend...see you online some time.

*OneFromBeyond

Yes multiple rangers would make things easier. To easy IMHO. We had a team of rangers once. 8 of us in fact.

1 Fire
1 freeze
1 shock
1 concentration
1 fanatic
1 blessed aim
1 might
1 that anti undead aura

We actually tore things up so quickly it was obscene.

The premise of this team is 4 memebers only, one of each non-zon class.

Although I'd love to get this particular team together I'd be happy in the end if I can get a bunch of non-zon bow users together to mix and match thier streangths and weaknesses as a team as well.

I think we've managed enough talk of the builds and ideas. I'll start asking around amongst those folks I see on b.net when I'm on about trying to put a team together. I figure doing it that way will make it easier to put together a team than trying to post here that way it's comprised of us that are just naturally on at the same time already.

If your intereasted contact me on b.net, US East Softcore Ladder, account name is Dinnindarkblade. Hopefully your on the same time as I am.

CheeseRYummy
15-04-2006, 23:31
Ahh I didn't know that the knock back radius increased with levels in leap. Now see, thats what I'm talking about. Stuff I didn't know :-)

.

You didn't know because it isn't true.

nickedoff
15-04-2006, 23:53
You didn't know because it isn't true.
I know for an absolute fact that higher level leap is a higher knockback radius.

I'll prove it to you on open if you want.

CheeseRYummy
16-04-2006, 00:53
I know for an absolute fact that higher level leap is a higher knockback radius.

I'll prove it to you on open if you want.

No it doesn't, lvl 99 leap knocks the same radius as lvl 1.

HardkoreHarry
16-04-2006, 02:06
No it doesn't, lvl 99 leap knocks the same radius as lvl 1.

ROFL.

1.98 + (LeapSkillLvl * 0.66)) = Knockback Radius

CheeseRYummy
16-04-2006, 03:54
ROFL.

1.98 + (LeapSkillLvl * 0.66)) = Knockback Radius
So I guess after 20 it goes negative?

HardkoreHarry
16-04-2006, 04:04
So I guess after 20 it goes negative?


Yeah, it does. Take a lvl 25 leap for instance.

1.98 + (LeapSkillLvl * 0.66)) = Knockback Radius

1.98 + (25 * 0.66)
1.98 + 16.5
18.84 yard knockback radius which is clearly negative. Your math teacher must be proud.

CheeseRYummy
16-04-2006, 19:58
Yeah, it does. Take a lvl 25 leap for instance.

1.98 + (LeapSkillLvl * 0.66)) = Knockback Radius

1.98 + (25 * 0.66)
1.98 + 16.5
18.84 yard knockback radius which is clearly negative. Your math teacher must be proud.
:prop: *Gives a big hug to first grade teacher*

Even with all your equations, ever bother to test leap at lvl 99?

HardkoreHarry
16-04-2006, 23:22
Even with all your equations, ever bother to test leap at lvl 99?


Nope, I don't hack, sorry to disappoint you. I hope that doesn't make you think less of me. Higher levels of leap do increase the knockback radius though.

EDIT: Have you ever just tested a lvl 99 leap? I just did a thought experiment and the knockback radius seemed to be extraordinarily large.

nickedoff
17-04-2006, 01:57
EDIT: Have you ever just tested a lvl 99 leap? I just did a thought experiment and the knockback radius seemed to be extraordinarily large.
I let my little brother use an SP editor once to duel his friend from school on open, and he put leap at 99.
We could stand waaaaaaay out in the bloodmoor while his friend was at the entrance to town and push him back without even being seen on the map.
If leap did any damage, it'd be insane.

Maybe a barb made especially for a very high leap level (+6 helmet, +2 rings, +3 amulet, +1 belt, +3 torch, +9 charms, +1 annihlus, etc.) would be useful if you had some way to deal passive damage...Like with the act three merc bug.

...Time to start scheming...

CheeseRYummy
21-04-2006, 03:17
I let my little brother use an SP editor once to duel his friend from school on open, and he put leap at 99.
We could stand waaaaaaay out in the bloodmoor while his friend was at the entrance to town and push him back without even being seen on the map.
If leap did any damage, it'd be insane.

Maybe a barb made especially for a very high leap level (+6 helmet, +2 rings, +3 amulet, +1 belt, +3 torch, +9 charms, +1 annihlus, etc.) would be useful if you had some way to deal passive damage...Like with the act three merc bug.

...Time to start scheming...

Strange... hmm... differen't version perhaps? lag? expac only?

hiroshimana
21-04-2006, 23:52
Please, use and editor for the first time in your life and test leap, it does increase the radius, last patch i remember many bvb´s having lvl 6-10 leap glitching you because in the time they finished leaping and clicking on ww´ing you you still were on the leap knockback FYI...