Thorns question

[hwy1005]

I'm considering getting myself a bramble armor. How effective is a level 21 thorns in hell? Would someone kindly do a breakdown on, say, an attack from a cow? About what % of its health can i expect to go down?

[Orphan]

Put simply, it's not worth it. The monsters have alot more HP than they do damage, so the amount that's returned is pretty bad. You wanted an example, so here we go:

Hell Bovine:
mlvl = 81
HP range = 12,588 HP to 15,499 HP (ladder)
Attack 1 damage = 120-167
Attack 2 damage = 111-158
Physical Resistance = 50%

A couple of points about thorns (and iron maiden, for the record), based on my understanding of the process:

- The damage that is used to calculate the physical damage returned to the attacker is affected by the defender's physical resistances (among other things, but they are not important in this example). What this translates to is if your character has 50% DR, then the amount of damage that is returne do the cow will be half of their total damage.

- The actual returned damage is affected by all damage modifications of the attacker. What this translates to is that the cows physical resistance reduces the returned damage...again (joy).


So, we'll use two case scenarios. The first will involve the character having 50% DR, and the second will not. In both cases, we'll assume the cow uses it's first attack, as it deals more damage. Likewise, in both cases we'll assume a perfect scenario whereby the cow scores it's maximum damage. Finally, we'll assume the cow spawns with the lowest HP possible, in a player 1 game (12,588 HP):

Case 1
Character = 50% DR
Level 21 Thorns = 1050% damage returned

- Hell Cow attacks character, dealing 167 damage.
- The damage is reduced to 83, because of the phsysical resistances
- The 83 damage is increased by 1050%, returning 954 physical damage to the cow
- The cow's physical resistance reduces the 954 damage to 477.
- The cow's HP changes from 12,588 to 12,111.
- The cow has lost about 3% life.


Case 2
Character = 0% DR
Level 21 Thorns = 1050% damage returned

- Hell Cow attacks character, dealing 167 damage
- The 167 damage is increased by 1050%, returning 1920 physical damage to the cow
- The cow's physical resistance reduces the 1920 damage to 960 damage
- The cow's HP changes from 12,588 to 11,628.
- The cow has lost about 8% life


Thrilling, this is not :wink3: Though it could be handy for a merc or something, but it would only add abit of extra damage.

[hwy1005]

Great job. That is the best response ive seen to a post on these forums. Thanks.

[jiansonz]

Good example, but I wouldn´t write off the usefulness so quickly.

The usefulness depends on a lot of things, really. Necromancers are the class that can get the most out of returned damage. The have a recastable minion (golem) and they can at least double the damage with Amplify Damage (effect is even greater if the monster has physical resistance). Add anything like monster auras (Might, Fanaticism), Cursed ability on a boss or Extra Strong, and monsters can do much more damage to themselves. Act bosses who hit a golem have a large bonus to the damage, so it´s very effective there.

My character (who eventually made Guardian) in the Rare Pleasures tournament in the Single Player Forum was a Lord of Mages, with a decent number of points in Corpse Explosion. However, what really made the build work was the combination of a Thorns merc and golem. That was the basis for getting the first corpse in a fight (since I never managed to get the merc a better weapon than an ethereal rare +90% damage Colossus Voulge). These mercs max out at only level 15 Thorns. Thorns completely ruled in the fight against Hell Ancients. I managed to keep the merc alive with Life Tap and rejuves long enough for the Ancients to kill themselves on the golem.

That cow in the example would kill itself with 13 hits. That´s not a bad help. You will probably do damage some other way as well, eh?

[Orphan]

That cow in the example would kill itself with 13 hits. That´s not a bad help. You will probably do damage some other way as well, eh?

Indeed, though you would need to absorb those 13 hits as well. At 167 damage per hit, that's 2171 total damage that the character would need to absorb in order for the cow to kill itself. Though, like you said, there could be some extra damage being dealt to it, so the total damage would be reduced but the main problem comes in a character needing to actually absorb the damage.

With life tap, the job would definately be easier. Otherwise, this sort of setup might be better with a summon necro, where the loss of a skeleton or two could easily be replenished by the corpses.

[-Tempus-]

amp + thorns should still work. i have 2 paladins that use thorns, one is still in classic the other is used to coop with necros in LOD. if i were to finsh the char off he would have lev +45 thorns. that should be 2000% return, the fun thing with thorns was when you also use convert. that doenst work as well now as it did in the past.

-Tempus-