ATTN: Kirschan, Orphan, RTB, or any other knowledgable Statistics forumite

[GargonCerlan]

Kirschan, Orphan and RTB you've been most helpful to answer my stats questions in the past, and I'm hoping you can help me now.

My main question is figuring out what yields higher damage output at lower levels:

For this experiment, I will only use Khalim's will as the weapon, all other gear is up for grabs. (I'm a speed freak)

I know about the bug with ED/Max dmg jewels for starters. My question is, if I were to level a character and were saving points for higher level skills, which would yield more damage for me using khalims will:

A) 3 socket helm/4 socket armor/3 socket shield all filled with enhanced damage jewels

B) 3 socket helm/4 socket armor/3 socket shield all filled with max damage jewels

C) a mix of both such as the helm and shield with max damage and armor with enhanced damage

I'd rather not waste the jewels and armors to test this myself, so if someone can figure it out mathmatically for me, it would prove most helpful.

Case in point.

I am starting a fury druid now and I most like will pump points into lycanthropy and werewolf first with 1 point in the pre-requisite skills to fury, namely feral rage and rabies, obviously. So quite simply, once I hit level 12 I will be using feral rage quite a bit.

For other gear I tend to use either the death's or sigons glove/belt combo, cow king's boots, and either triple angelic rings/ammy or dual 7% manalds and 7% eye of etlich. If there is something else that will help me deal more damage and still be able to keep both orbs full, that information would be helpful also. I do not like to keep chugging pots by any means.

I'm willing to invest quite a bit in perfecting the armor/helm/shield. I'm also curious if you can socket khalims will with the soj/cube recipe, and if you can, what would you socket it with?

I will have poison charms on me, but I don't want to use jewels of envy in the armors since the added poison damage doesn't help with the physical damage needed for leech.

Sorry for the long winded post but I've always wondered which would be better since I've used max damage armors almost exclusively.

P.S. I need the 3 socket shield because I don't play only paladins, but i'm pretty sure a 65% ED 121 AR Targe/Rondache/Heraldic with 4x Rusty Jewels of Envy (20%ED/20 poison over 2 seconds) jewels would be VERY nice.

[ToThePoint]

depends on what lvl you are mainly interested in and exact strength and just how much you are willing to pay.

simplest way to work out is to do in excel or some spreadsheet

make columns
min, max, str, %feral, plusmax, plused, finalmin, finalmax, finalaverage

str = strength
%feral = %ed from the skill
plusmax = +max from jewels
plused = +%ed from jewels
finalaverage = (finalmin+finalmax)/2
finalmin = min*(1+str/100+%feral/100+plused/100)
finalmax = (max+plusmax)*(1+str/100+%feral/100+plused/100)

for any setup just copy the top row down the page and increment the jewels mods.
ie start at 10 +max jewels and then next column 9 +max and 1 20ed etc
then compare the averages.

btw you can mix ed and max as long as you socket the max after the ed. (iirc)

[Orphan]

Well, here's some numbers for you to muse over. I've indicate two attacks per combination, one without taking into account the +lightning damage on the flail, and one with the +lightning damage factored in. The reasoning behind this is the first numbers will be your leechable damage, while the second will be your total damage (the +lightning damage can't help your leech).

With regards to the bug, my understanding is that if any ED% is added to a non-weapon item which already has +min and +max, then the ED% will not apply to the +min/max already on the item. This is what happens with ED%/+max jewels, because the +max is calculated first when the jewels are inserted. However, if the ED% were to be placed in first, and then any +max jewels socketted afterwards, everything should be fine. What this means is that if you were to socket an ED% jewel into the helm, and then socket a jewel with +max, the damage calculations should follow through fine.


I'm going to assume that you have 50 strength. This is going to be used to determine the stat bonus. I used 50 strength because you might have less when you start the game, and more as you progress in abit, so it's going to be an average. Likewise, I should mention that I have not factored the extra 50% ED to undead in any calculations.

For the record, this is the flail you're using:

Khalim's Will
1-24 damage
6% Life Stolen Per Hit
6% Mana stolen per hit
+1-40 Lightning Damage
+40 Attack Rating
50% Increased Attack speed
+150% Damage to Undead

Your damage with this weapon, without any additional factors taking into consideration (except for the statbonus) is:

Normal attack = 1-36 damage (18.5 average damage)
Normal attack w/ lightning damage = 2-76 damage (39 average damage)


Another assumption I've had to make is the jewel affixes that you're going to use. You mentioned Rusty, so I'm going to assume any jewel affixes around level 9. This brings our list to:

Jewels prefix:
Scarlet = +1-4 Min Damage, level 6 req
Carbuncle = +1-5 max damage, level 9 req
Rusty = +11-20% ED, level 9 req

Jewel suffixes:
of Ire = +2-5 max damage, level 3 req
of Wrath = +6-9 max damage, level 8 req
of Joyfulness = +1-4 min damage, level 3 req


A) 3 socket helm/4 socket armor/3 socket shield all filled with enhanced damage jewels

That would be 10 Rusty Jewels, totaling 200% Enhanced Damage.

Normal attack = 3-84 damage (43.5 average damage)
Normal attack w/ lightning damage = 4-124 damage (64 average damage)


B) 3 socket helm/4 socket armor/3 socket shield all filled with max damage jewels

This could involve two scenarios. The first being a perfect scenario assuming you manage to get 10 Carbuncle Jewels of Wrath, which grant +14 max damage each. A more realistic scenario would be that you get 10 Jewels of Wrath, that grant +9 max damage each. I've listed both outcomes anyway.

Perfect Scenario:
10 Carbuncle Jewels of Wrath. This equals 10 * 14 = +140 max damage

Normal attack = 1-246 damage (123.5 average damage)
Normal attack w/ lightning damage = 2-286 damage (144 average damage)

Realistic Scenario
10 Jewels of Wrath. This equals 10 * 9 = +90 max damage

Normal attack = 1-171 damage (86 average damage)
Normal attack w/ lightning damage = 2-211 damage (106.5 average damage)


C) a mix of both such as the helm and shield with max damage and armor with enhanced damage

The amount of scenarios this could result in is quite abit. I've tested most of them, but the two highest combinations are 2*ED% jewels and 8*Max Jewels, or 3*ED% Jewels and 7*Max Jewels. Any other combination results in less damage. Again, I have listed a perfect scenario and a realistic scenario, with regards to the +max Jewels.

Case 1 - Perfect Scenario

3 Rusty Jewels (60% ED) and 7 Carbuncle Jewels of Wrath (+98 max).

Normal attack = 2-256 damage (129 average damage)
Normal attack w/ lightning damage = 3-296 damage (149.5 average damage)


Case 1 - Realistic Scenario

3 Rusty Jewels (60% ED) and 7 Jewels of Wrath (+63 max)

Normal attack = 2-182 damage (92 average damage)
Normal attack w/ lightning damage = 3-222 damage (112.5 average damage)


Case 2 - Perfect Scenario

2 Rusty Jewels (40% ED) and 8 Carbuncle Jewels of Wrath (+112 Max)

Normal attack = 1-258 damage (129.5 average damage)
Normal attack w/ lightning = 2-298 damage (150 average damage)


Case 2 - Realistic Scenario

2 Rusty Jewels (40% ED) and 8 Jewels of Wrath (+72 Max)

Normal attack = 1-182 damage (91 average damage)
Normal attack w/ lightning = 2-222 damage (112 average damage)



Notes

Having a combination of ED% and +Max Jewels will give you higher average damage. The difference between having 2 ED%/8+Max Jewels and 3 ED% Jewel/7+Max Jewels is about 1 to 0.5 average damage.

You'll notice that in the perfect scenario, having only 2 Rusty Jewels is better than having 3 Rusty Jewels. In the realistic scenario, having 3 Rusty Jewels is better than having 2 Rusty Jewels.

[Stevebo]

This is MUCH more qualitive than Orphans advice above but...

If you're leveling you will quickly get to level 9, for me level 9-20 is the main pain, from there it's cows and baal runs straight to level 80-ish.

Really a 3 socket mask and 3 socket shield with +9s, a 3socket armor with +9s until level 14 where you switch it for a twitchrope armor with a +9 jewel will be VERY effective for getting you through normal. Clegs sword socketed with a damage jewel can be very nice or a 6 socket crystal sword.

With a combination like this you will rip through normal difficulty and be doing much more damage than any other PvM char of even remotely similar level.

For leveling purposes anything more expensive than a +9Jewel is overkill - particulary since it willl be outdated the moment you reach Level 18 when +15's become available at a similar price to a level 9 +9jewel.

a 4socket armor takes quite a bit of strength, more than most level 9s would like without spending a lot on -15req/+20ED jewels. For leveling purposes this is WAY too expensive - for PvP it is not so bad.

It just seems a waste to invest in full LLD gear just to level a character.

[krischan]

Hehe, you know how to sweet-talk certain people into posting here :azn:

Orphan already explained most of it, but he didn't consider off-weapon %ed from skills and auras. The more of these bonuses you have, the less will the benefit of further off-weapon %ed be in comparison to +dmg, until you come to a point where further +maxdmg will be better. At very low levels, it's not an issue, but at perhaps L18, 24 or 30 it will have an influence with respect to skills and the reqs of Sigon's set will make you a character who gets 75% off-weapon from strength. If a paladin is around all the time, you will probably have another source of %ed.

BTW, I suggest to wear Civerb's Cudgel instead of Khalim's Will at L9 (which, for some wonderful reason, is the level req for Sigon's set as well). From L18 on, a 6 socket weapon with six +15 maxdmg jewels will kill anything in normal mode, als already said. Below L9 you will be good enough with what you find or what you can shop for (or wear Khalim's Will) and you won't need any damage-boosting gear. A weapon socketed with chipped gems (1 sapphire, topazes for the rest) will be good enough for all of act 1.

[Hrus]

Isn't this discussion little bit pointless?
On BNet you will be rushed or if you play solo, you will not have much problems with monsters anyway. (At least no need to equip high value LLD jewels)
On SP you can activate the /players 8 command, but you also can have 1.09 Ravenclaw which is the king of damage from lvl 14 to 30.

[ToThePoint]

Isn't this discussion little bit pointless?
On BNet you will be rushed or if you play solo, you will not have much problems with monsters anyway. (At least no need to equip high value LLD jewels)
On SP you can activate the /players 8 command, but you also can have 1.09 Ravenclaw which is the king of damage from lvl 14 to 30.
not if thats how (s)he levels.

[GargonCerlan]

Thanks all, I think I have it now. The only reason I don't like to use the set weapons is speed. I tend to level alone in full games (like baal runs) usually in the 3 Ts (trist/tomb/trav) so I only have about 6-7 minutes give or take to kill most everything quickly. I usually travel alone because in low level parties, there's always someone who splits the group in two or three, and then begs for a tp when they hit a dead end. It's no the end of the world, just annoying. So I avoid it by leveling alone. So it seems that leaning towards the max damage jewels is the way to go for me.

Does anyone know #1 if you can up khalims will to a scourge, and #2 whether it is socketable with the soj/cube recipe?

[GargonCerlan]

Isn't this discussion little bit pointless?
On BNet you will be rushed or if you play solo, you will not have much problems with monsters anyway. (At least no need to equip high value LLD jewels)
On SP you can activate the /players 8 command, but you also can have 1.09 Ravenclaw which is the king of damage from lvl 14 to 30.

If I wanted someone else to play the game for me, I wouldn't be here now, would I? Whether I choose to level with this gear, or lld, either way I'll have the gear and can do what I please with it.

[krischan]

Khalim's Will is not something like a unique flail. It's a quest item. It becomes a hand axe if upgraded, just like Wirret's Leg. I guess Larzuk will add one socket to it.

[Hrus]

If I wanted someone else to play the game for me, I wouldn't be here now, would I? Whether I choose to level with this gear, or lld, either way I'll have the gear and can do what I please with it.
My apology if I sounded little bit rude, I didn't want to. It's just that I never used some uber leveling gear and even didn't think about it. (Well maybe it's because RavenClaw IS uber :grin: )

[Terenas]

Khalim's Will is not something like a unique flail. It's a quest item. It becomes a hand axe if upgraded, just like Wirret's Leg.
What is needed to upgrade Khalim's ? Recipe for upping Unique Weapons or what else ? I might give it a try, just to see how it is.:smiley:

[krischan]

The stuff for upping normal unique weapons AFAIK. When it's a hand axe, it's probably still a normal item, so you can you can upgrade it again with the same materials.

[purplelocust]

On SP you can activate the /players 8 command, but you also can have 1.09 Ravenclaw which is the king of damage from lvl 14 to 30.
I didn't realize there were differences between 1.09 Ravenclaws and current ones- what is the difference?

[Orphan]

I didn't realize there were differences between 1.09 Ravenclaws and current ones- what is the difference?

To my knowledge the only difference between a 1.09 raven claw and a 1.10+ is the level of the explosive arrows. 1.10+ Raven Claws have a level 3 explosive arrows, while 1.09 Raven Claws have a level 30 explosive arrows.

[purplelocust]

To my knowledge the only difference between a 1.09 raven claw and a 1.10+ is the level of the explosive arrows. 1.10+ Raven Claws have a level 3 explosive arrows, while 1.09 Raven Claws have a level 30 explosive arrows.
Great, thanks for the info! My ranged enchantresses still have their old RavenClaws so hopefully I can keep straight which ones are which with a little experimentation.