Venom ww vs. Physical ww calculations

[Gimmershred]

Ok i got myself a 290% ed , fools mod, 14 min damage, ethereal runic talons. So i was calculating damage with different setups and i thought i share my results with you all.

I share 3 calculations with you. All use the same amount of deadly strike + critical strike wich average has been taken into account already in the physical damage part.
All use lvl 37 venom except the calculation in wich you use max damage charms instead of shadow charms.
All calculations use trang gloves equipped. All +% poison damage is counted twice.
Strength and dex is both 115 in all calculations

1) lvl 34 claw mastery, lvl 3 ww, bramble 40%, 15%ds gores, 34%ds highlords
1004-1959 damage, 1482 average, 2254 venom damage, 3736 average damage

2) lvl 34 claw mastery, lvl 3 ww, forti, 15%ds gores, 34%ds highlords
1749-3411 average, 2580 average, 1470 venom, 4050 average damage.

3) lvl 25 claw mastery, lvl 3 ww, forti, 15% gores, 34% highlords , +100 max damage from charms
1659-4308, 2983 average, 997 venom, 3980 average damage

You see adding max damage charms instead of Shadow skillers is useless.
Forti is better on this then a 40% bramble , although the venom lvl is only lvl 37.

So i should use forti and shadow skillers with this claw right? or am i missing something here?

[ilkori]

Wow... lvl 37 Venom. I've never heard a serious PvPer talk about casting at anything less than lvl 45 or so.

Also, did you recast Venom with the Fort before calculating the damage? If you didn't, one extra boost of +%Psn is still on your poison, and will skew the result. I.e. you will have to prebuff with Bramble every single time.

Did you count the str/dex bonuses for physical damage? The difference in (2) and (3) doesn't seem large enough from eyeballing.

[Gimmershred]

Wow... lvl 37 Venom. I've never heard a serious PvPer talk about casting at anything less than lvl 45 or so.

Also, did you recast Venom with the Fort before calculating the damage? If you didn't, one extra boost of +%Psn is still on your poison, and will skew the result. I.e. you will have to prebuff with Bramble every single time.

Did you count the str/dex bonuses for physical damage? The difference in (2) and (3) doesn't seem large enough from eyeballing.

I counted the +%psn twice. I didn't really tested with a chareditor, i calculated it so no mistakes in switching fort and bramble. I counted str and dex into the physical damage. Also counted critical strike and ed from claw mastery and -ed from ww off course. Lvl 37 venom is what i get without prebuff. I probably can get some nice prebuff claws but i don't feel like running to the stash all the time. I know lvl 40 should be the absolute minimum but i thought i compensate a bit with physical damage. You think i should someway get a higher lvl venom even when it means prebuff? Is a bramble also really necessary?

I also have a problem getting decent open wounds when i use this claw cause i had to throw a zod in it. I am planning to use an ow belt + gores but should i also change trang gloves to draculs or will only an ow belt gores and the ow from chaos do just fine? The thing i liked about trangs+forti too was that it gave me the 45% fcr break for a bit faster mindblasting. But ow is more necessary. Help me make the decision between to-gloves or dracs.

The difference between 2 and 3's max damage isn't bad, the charms raise max damage with +- 900, but the loss of ed from claw mastery makes the minimum damage drop, with 100. So the average added damage out of those charms is only 400, wich is quite dissapointing yea. Moreover i would loose +9 to all my shadowskills wich i really don't like.

Maybe i'll make some calculations with a high level venom. It could just as well be that a bramble setup would outweigh the forti one then, wich would mean that a standard fury /chaos setup would be better (except for ar). Then i can sell my zodded claw to charsi :starry:

[Speederländer]

Did you figure the PLR penalty in hell when looking at your numbers (most duels today happen in hell)? Also, you need to show final numbers with PvP penalty, 75% psn res and 50% physical damage reduce to compare average worst case senarios.

You need higher level venom casting as well, as ilkori said.

Nice claws, btw. What realm are those on?

[Gimmershred]

Did you figure the PLR penalty in hell when looking at your numbers (most duels today happen in hell)? Also, you need to show final numbers with PvP penalty, 75% psn res and 50% physical damage reduce to compare average worst case senarios.

You need higher level venom casting as well, as ilkori said.

Nice claws, btw. What realm are those on?

I didn't use the PLR penalty, but how do you calculate the extra damage out of this? Is it just doubling the venom damage?

Total average pvp damage per hit vs 50%dr, 75% res char on normal+nightmare with setup:
1) 326 with lvl 37 venom, 367 with lvl 45 venom
2) 414 with lvl 37 venom, 441 with lvl 45 venom
3) 435 with lvl 28 venom, 462 with lvl 36 venom



Looks like setup 3 wins on normal and nightmare, although the difference with setup 2 is pretty small.
How do i count out the venom damage on hell?

If i need higher venom i guess i'll have to use some prebuff venom claws. How do people get 45+ venom without prebuff anyways? I guess i won't look for venom on a chaos then, but i will look for df and some other skillpoint saving skills instead.

The Claws are on Europe Scl by the way

[ilkori]

20 base
4+9 from charms
2 ammy
2 boots
1 cta BC
1 helm
that gives lvl 39 right there

dual +3 claws (Chaos/Fury) give lvl 45

I'm probably missing something due to lack of sleep. Thankfully I have ye old Chai.


The PLR penalty is equal to the -psn resistance. In Hell, that means -100 PLR if no PLR gear is on the opponent.

Equation form, final psn = displayed * (1-resists/100) * (1 - plr/100 + plr_penalty/100)

[Gimmershred]

20 base
4+9 from charms
2 ammy
2 boots
1 cta BC
1 helm
that gives lvl 39 right there

dual +3 claws (Chaos/Fury) give lvl 45

I'll have to use highlords, ds is just too sweet with this claw.
I'll have to use Gores, i am lacking ow.
Helm i am not sure about but Coa's str req is too high.
I can have +3 venom on my claw.
That makes a total of 20base, 4+9charms, 1 ammy, 1ctabc, 0,1,2 helm, 3 chaos = 38-40 venom. And although i just said i can use prebuff claws i probably am too lazy most of the time to prebuff my venom.


The PLR penalty is equal to the -psn resistance. In Hell, that means -100 PLR if no PLR gear is on the opponent.

Equation form, final psn = displayed * (1-resists/100) * (1 - plr/100 + plr_penalty/100)

Does "displayed" in this Equation already counts +% poison damage sources once or twice into account? Or does this happen after the equation?

[RTB]

Does "displayed" in this Equation already counts +% poison damage sources once or twice into account? Or does this happen after the equation?
If he means displayed on the skill, then no. The LCS does show the double application, but I prefer calculating the dmg done to using the often incorrect values listed there. -100% PLR means double the poison length and thus double the dmg done.

[ilkori]

Er, yeah, by displayed I mean total damage output of the character - couldn't think of a better name for it

= baseVenom * (1+cast%/100) * (1+strike%/100)


Also, just curious what the point of this analysis is. Is it pure vs melee where no traps or mind blast are allowed? Otherwise serious FCR and teleporting issues are present.

[Gimmershred]

If he means displayed on the skill, then no. The LCS does show the double application, but I prefer calculating the dmg done to using the often incorrect values listed there. -100% PLR means double the poison length and thus double the dmg done.

ow, so i just double my poisondamage after enemies resists are taken into account? But what about the fact that you can hit multiple times during 0.8 seconds?

25.25 frames = 1 second.
So when 1 venom is working 0.8 seconds (+-20 frames). you can possibly hit around 5 times (4 frame ww) with your physical damage.

[Gimmershred]

It's just a pub assa. I think i will do ok with the 45%fcr maxed mb i get and without tele. It's mainly because my meleesorc and amabear got trashed so much by punk kiddo smiters.
Also the fact that i got the rare claw and wanted to use it decided to push me to a ww-sin build. So this analysis is just to look at what the best possibilities are to equip this assa with. My knowledge about ww-assa's isn't that big (rather super-small actually) and i am trying to get an insight in the damage mechanisms.

[ilkori]

In PvP, generally there are two things: large miss chances and 50% block rates. This doesn't include time between passes.

WW checks are every 4 frames at fastest (you'll be at fastest with that claw and any Chaos), which means at most you'll hit once every four frames. With 75% blocking, your expected chance to hit is closer to once every 16 frames if you have ITD. Adding in CTH, it rounds out to approximately one hit every 20 frames or so. If two instances happen to overlap (which is easily possible), you will do the frame of previous poison damage, plus one "free" frame of the new poison damage. If the new poison damage > old, then it applies the new damage rate and resets the duration timer. If old > new, then it keeps the old poison rate and stays on the original timer.

Technically, it isn't exactly every 20 frames... but it's close enough for eyeballing.

The time between attack sequences is when your big OW kicks in.

[Gimmershred]

The time between attack sequences is when your big OW kicks in.

Does my ow even have enough % to trigger i am wondering. It's only 10% belt, 10% gores and 25 chaos. And i guess i am hitting more with the rare claws then with chaos so it's only 20%. Is this reason enough to trhow out trang gloves and equip draculs?

[ilkori]

Un-um'd, double-um'd Fools claws are what I've heard most people talking about... not sure. That'd require some experience.

[Gimmershred]

Un-um'd, double-um'd Fools claws are what I've heard most people talking about... not sure. That'd require some experience.

That might be better indeed, but i really want to use those rare claws + chaos, just need to find a working setup with that. I came this far.

Claw1: Chaos Suwayyah
Claw2: Rare eth runics 290ed, fools, +15min, +2mb, zodded
Armor: fortitude
Ring1: Raven
Ring2: Raven
Amulet: Highlords
Boots: Gores
Belt: Crafted ow belt with 10% ow, and fhr
Helm: ????

Str. and Dex would both be 115, 40dex from ravens for tweaking.
Ar would be around 12k.
Dr only 38%, so maybe 12 on helm.
Res without anya quests only 35, so some from sc's and maybe on helm.
Maybe a rare circlet ber'd or maybe a dumbass rockstopper on it? Or the same old shako condom on my head with an um in it?
Still don't know what to do with the gloves also?

[Imbecile]

Ok i got myself a 290% ed , fools mod, 14 min damage, ethereal runic talons. So i was calculating damage with different setups and i thought i share my results with you all.

I share 3 calculations with you. All use the same amount of deadly strike + critical strike wich average has been taken into account already in the physical damage part.
All use lvl 37 venom except the calculation in wich you use max damage charms instead of shadow charms.
All calculations use trang gloves equipped. All +% poison damage is counted twice.
Strength and dex is both 115 in all calculations

1) lvl 34 claw mastery, lvl 3 ww, bramble 40%, 15%ds gores, 34%ds highlords
1004-1959 damage, 1482 average, 2254 venom damage, 3736 average damage

2) lvl 34 claw mastery, lvl 3 ww, forti, 15%ds gores, 34%ds highlords
1749-3411 average, 2580 average, 1470 venom, 4050 average damage.

3) lvl 25 claw mastery, lvl 3 ww, forti, 15% gores, 34% highlords , +100 max damage from charms
1659-4308, 2983 average, 997 venom, 3980 average damage

You see adding max damage charms instead of Shadow skillers is useless.
Forti is better on this then a 40% bramble , although the venom lvl is only lvl 37.

So i should use forti and shadow skillers with this claw right? or am i missing something here?

Why do you want to use a claw that doesn't hit the lwbp = -34 ? Your claw lacks 4 ias to hit the desired ww speed. Though I must admit that your claw rock, but it lacks -4 ias to be used effective with ww.
Runic Talon - 30 base weapon speed, would have been superb for trap laying too with only a little more IAS........ :cry:

[ilkori]

Why do you want to use a claw that doesn't hit the lwbp = -34 ? Your claw lacks 4 ias to hit the desired ww speed. Though I must admit that your claw rock, but it lacks -4 ias to be used effective with ww.
Runic Talon - 30 base weapon speed, would have been superb for trap laying too with only a little more IAS........ :cry:
You've been playing too many barbs. The lwbp is -13 for all sins (they can only use claws).

[Kosmos]

That might be better indeed, but i really want to use those rare claws + chaos, just need to find a working setup with that. I came this far.

Claw1: Chaos Suwayyah
Claw2: Rare eth runics 290ed, fools, +15min, +2mb, zodded
Armor: fortitude
Ring1: Raven
Ring2: Raven
Amulet: Highlords
Boots: Gores
Belt: Crafted ow belt with 10% ow, and fhr
Helm: ????

Str. and Dex would both be 115, 40dex from ravens for tweaking.
Ar would be around 12k.
Dr only 38%, so maybe 12 on helm.
Res without anya quests only 35, so some from sc's and maybe on helm.
Maybe a rare circlet ber'd or maybe a dumbass rockstopper on it? Or the same old shako condom on my head with an um in it?
Still don't know what to do with the gloves also?
the perfect helm for this build imo would be Guillames socked 30 max jewel or 40ed/9 dex jewel.

nice claw btw :thumbsup:

[Imbecile]

You've been playing too many barbs. The lwbp is -13 for all sins (they can only use claws).

You've been playing too many barbs.

How can it be negative :cry: ?

[Gimmershred]

the perfect helm for this build imo would be Guillames socked 30 max jewel or 40ed/9 dex jewel.

nice claw btw :thumbsup:

it's really only 15% ds on guillaume's. Doesn't gores+highlords+cs from claw mastery do the job fine , i mean it gives a 60% chance of double damage.
Guillaumes would bring it up to a 71% chance. If i use guillaume's i would lack in dr% and resist. I would have to wear verdungo's then. The setup would be something like this.

Helm: Guillaume socketed 27max jewel (got it laying around)
Armor: Forti
Claw1: Rare runics
Claw2: Chaos
Amu: Highlords
Ring1: raven
Ring2: Raven
Belt: Dungo's
Gloves: Draculs:
Boots: Gores

9x shadowsk , torch, anni, 10x 5res sc.

Is this setup better then the previous 1? In the previous 1 i would use i think a ummed shako or something like that and a 10%, 24%fhr ow belt with some res. It will allow me to use trang gloves wich also let's me hit a fcr break for mindblast. also my sc's would be mostly life/mana's then.

Another option would be to waste a ber in the guillaumes.

And what would be my traplaying speed anyways with runics, chaos suwayyah and 20% ias from highlords?

Or maybe i should change 1 raven for a nice stat / res ring or something?

[ilkori]

Hmm, you could try running the numbers on it just to see what the difference in 15% DS would do for you.

How can it be negative ?Negative, positive... it's only a matter of what is subtracted from what.

-13 is BWS - IAS.

+13 is IAS - BWS

Either way, ANY Chaos or Fury will reach the point. Also, any Ferral, Runics or the Greater Claw/Talon will hit it with no IAS. Jade Talon only needs 3 IAS to hit the bp, and (like barbs) it must be on the weapon.

[Gimmershred]

Average damage with 49% ds (no guillaumes) --> 1749 - 3411
Average damage with 49% ds and +27 max --> 1749 - 3715
Average damage with 64% ds (guillaumes) --> 1877 - 3660
Average damage witrh 64% ds + 27 max jewel --> 1877 - 3986

Damage added by Guillaumes = 377

+1 max damage adds +- 11,26 damage with 49%ds
+1 max damage adds +- 12,07 damage with 64%ds

By the way i also made a bid on a 2assa 30frw 20all res with some life. Might be nice too. I don't know

[Speederländer]

Average damage with 49% ds (no guillaumes) --> 1749 - 3411
Average damage with 49% ds and +27 max --> 1749 - 3715
Average damage with 64% ds (guillaumes) --> 1877 - 3660
Average damage witrh 64% ds + 27 max jewel --> 1877 - 3986

Damage added by Guillaumes = 377

+1 max damage adds +- 11,26 damage with 49%ds
+1 max damage adds +- 12,07 damage with 64%ds

By the way i also made a bid on a 2assa 30frw 20all res with some life. Might be nice too. I don't know

The crushing blow from the Guillaumes will likely add as much or more damage than the deadly strike.

[order]

i dont think we need to worry about ur sins dmg at this point. ur build is lacking both fhr and resistances. i'd suggest getting a sin circ with res and socketing a shael and using some fhr scs to meet at least the 48% breakpoint. u could probably swap the highlords for a maras and add some resistance that way too since u wont need the ias from it with the claws ur using.

[Gimmershred]

i dont think we need to worry about ur sins dmg at this point. ur build is lacking both fhr and resistances. i'd suggest getting a sin circ with res and socketing a shael and using some fhr scs to meet at least the 48% breakpoint. u could probably swap the highlords for a maras and add some resistance that way too since u wont need the ias from it with the claws ur using.

Fhr is no problem, i getting 24 fhr on the ow belt and 24 on 2 skillers.
I think i am going to use the +2assa, 30frw, 20 res circ and socket it with a ber. With 2x +3 shadow claws i reach exactly 50% dr then. And i really like to have some frw to help me close in for dflight.
With 5*5res sc i reach 82 res all without anya quests. I didn't count the light res on Highlords and the cold res on to gloves with this.
Since i have to prebuff fade i just prebuff venom as well, it will be lvl 42 unless i can get my hands on +5, +6 venom claws.

I am statting on 1 raven so i can change the second oneto dwarf/whisp/angelics when necessary.

I hit the 42% fcr break for my maxed mindblast. I get not so good traplaying speed using highlords + runics + suwayyah i think. It will be 12fpa (2%eias short for 11fpa). But since i am using fort i don't think making a chaos in a wrist sword is worth hitting the 11fpa break.

The only 2 things i am worried about now is

1) my life, i counted out that it is only around 2700-2800 after lvl 11 bo. That Seems not real high to me, but maybe it's ok with a little bit stacked res and 50% dr on a no-eni build.

2) Open wounds. I only have 10% belt, 10% boots, 25% chaos.

[Imbecile]

Hmm, you could try running the numbers on it just to see what the difference in 15% DS would do for you.

Negative, positive... it's only a matter of what is subtracted from what.

-13 is BWS - IAS.

+13 is IAS - BWS

Either way, ANY Chaos or Fury will reach the point. Also, any Ferral, Runics or the Greater Claw/Talon will hit it with no IAS. Jade Talon only needs 3 IAS to hit the bp, and (like barbs) it must be on the weapon.

I meant how can it be a bad thing playing too many barbs? :thumbsup:

[Speederländer]

Fhr is no problem, i getting 24 fhr on the ow belt and 24 on 2 skillers.
I think i am going to use the +2assa, 30frw, 20 res circ and socket it with a ber. With 2x +3 shadow claws i reach exactly 50% dr then. And i really like to have some frw to help me close in for dflight.
With 5*5res sc i reach 82 res all without anya quests. I didn't count the light res on Highlords and the cold res on to gloves with this.
Since i have to prebuff fade i just prebuff venom as well, it will be lvl 42 unless i can get my hands on +5, +6 venom claws.

I am statting on 1 raven so i can change the second oneto dwarf/whisp/angelics when necessary.

I hit the 42% fcr break for my maxed mindblast. I get not so good traplaying speed using highlords + runics + suwayyah i think. It will be 12fpa (2%eias short for 11fpa). But since i am using fort i don't think making a chaos in a wrist sword is worth hitting the 11fpa break.

The only 2 things i am worried about now is

1) my life, i counted out that it is only around 2700-2800 after lvl 11 bo. That Seems not real high to me, but maybe it's ok with a little bit stacked res and 50% dr on a no-eni build.

2) Open wounds. I only have 10% belt, 10% boots, 25% chaos.

By focusing on physical damage this much, having 12 frame trapping (incredibly slow), missing the 65 fcr break for MB, and not being able to tele and forced to run (zero block) you are going to have serious problems against 1.11 builds as they more often than not focus on fast mobility and, if they don't use a ranged attack that will kill you without ever allowing you on their screen, they have a physical attack at least as damaging (if not more so) than your own. Further, you're stuck having to pre-buff.

[Gimmershred]

By focusing on physical damage this much, having 12 frame trapping (incredibly slow), missing the 65 fcr break for MB, and not being able to tele and forced to run (zero block) you are going to have serious problems against 1.11 builds as they more often than not focus on fast mobility and, if they don't use a ranged attack that will kill you without ever allowing you on their screen, they have a physical attack at least as damaging (if not more so) than your own. Further, you're stuck having to pre-buff.

We will see, i think this will do just fine in pubs. If i have traded all stuff and made the assa i will let you know how it went. I am used to duelling with underpowered chars anyways. My last 4 pvp chars were, shaman, palabear, amabear and meleesorc. Also on that shaman run > tele in 75% of the situations.
You say duellers focus on fast mobility? i see 90% of the pubduellers focus almost purely on damage. Even sorceresses tele on top of my meleesorc 50% of the time after they notice i am a meleesorc. Yes it's dumb, but it's just the way it goes.
Yes i am focusing on physical damage but i am still getting a slvl 42 venom and some ow and i still use trang gloves.
Also i don't think tele is king. Most duellers in pubs play very offensive and jump on you before you even leave town anyways and they will come on your screen multiple times during a duel, wich will allow you to get at least a few couple of opportunities to mb/df them. I am more of a defensive player anyways. I am used to running around and in many situations i prefer it above tele. The only real disadvantage is that my weaponblock doesnt work then, but hey, i got ww on my mousebutton.
For the prebufff part i only need to switch 2 claws, not that much trouble anyways.

Ow and i got 10 frame trapping, only 1 frame slower then a ghostsin. i forgot to count the ias on chaos.

[DarkMousy]

You really need Gclaws to be efficient with fort =\\

[fredsta54]

I seem to remember one of the best wwsins on east ladder was physical dmg based. I cannot validate this, and from my experience a "ghost" or an assasin built from speederlanders guide is generally more effective. HOWEVER, I have seen several people, including respected forum members, speaking of how an phys dmg wwsin can reach... what was it.. 11k dmg? that doesnt sound rite. Its what i remember

Fort
Eth chaos (... you would be so rich in this scenario you could easily make another)
Some godly eth rare claw with mods... you can imagine. An eth cruels claw of + 50 max with 2 sockets would also be deisel, reaching... 350ish max dmg?
As for the gear it was mainly built for resists, fcr, and the such not in mind.

I think this was built for just fighting meleers, not vs casters. It didnt ignore venom either. I remember it was effective vs bvb barbs and the like

err.. yeah... someone use a search function for physical dmg wwsin? or something... it was a while ago in the assasa forum...





Fred