Physical Damage Reduction against bugged Nihlathak's Vipers ?

[Frosty_The_Snowman]

Since the damage of these Vipers is bugged and is physically applied to each frame, is it true to assume that if I wear an item like Gladiator's Bane (15-20 PDR), it will greatly reduce the damage dealt by these Vipers (by reducing the amount of each frame by 15-20) :scratch: ?

[pedu]

Ive heard that if you wear things that give 30 damage reduced overall, the vipers cant touch you. Thats points, not % and im not sure about the number...

[Frosty_The_Snowman]

Ive heard that if you wear things that give 30 damage reduced overall, the vipers cant touch you. Thats points, not % and im not sure about the number...Mmh, with Gladiator you can already reach 20. Very interesting... :scratch:

[PhatTrumpet]

I run around with 37DR on my IK Barb (23DR amulet, 14DR helm - 'SolSol'). Result:

1) I don't take any physical damage from the poison cloud, just the negligible poison damage.
2) I don't even hear that machine gun sound you normally hear when running through a poison cloud.

This isn't necessary, however, with a teleporting character as the bugged damage only really gets you when you run through the cloud. If you stand still and only teleport the damage isn't nearly as devastating.

[Frosty_The_Snowman]

I run around with 37DR on my IK Barb (23DR amulet, 14DR helm - 'SolSol'). Result:

1) I don't take any physical damage from the poison cloud, just the negligible poison damage.
2) I don't even hear that machine gun sound you normally hear when running through a poison cloud.

This isn't necessary, however, with a teleporting character as the bugged damage only really gets you when you run through the cloud. If you stand still and only teleport the damage isn't nearly as devastating.Thanks, that's an interesting feedback. Now, it would be interesting to know the exact amount of PDR needed to negate the bugged Viper's physical damage :fortuneteller: .

[PhatTrumpet]

Just checking d2data.net I find the following:

Tomb Viper:
Attack 1, ranged, 41-55 physical damage, poison damage 23, duration 2.00 seconds
Attack 2, melee, physical damage 60-83, attack rating 4884, poison damage 30, duration 5.00 seconds

It'd appear to be the 41-55 physical damage that is getting re-applied every frame, but that doesn't seem quite right in my experience. Although my Barb does have about 4.5k life and 20%DR on top of all that PDR, so maybe I'm just not noticing the resulting 4-18 damage per frame.

It'd be easy enough to test, though.

:rolleyes:

[darkcrystal]

ugh i hate those things. with around 1.7k base life and a lvl 12 bo my pally gets around 2.8k life. i have about ~18k defense and if there are too many, i just leave. my merc dies in about 2 seconds (well over 3k life, 12k def, full res's) and i hate buying him back after he gives up a weak fight. blizz needs to fix those guys! :rant:

[ilkori]

According to one post by blue on the b.net forums, they are working "as intended."

[sorceressgod]

hmm, so the viper bug is that it's poison clouds gives physical damage instead?

[PhatTrumpet]

darkcrystal: not much sense in whining about it, especially if it's working as intended (as ilkori referred to). As I described, it's easy enough to make a couple simple gear changes and completely negate the damage.

ilkori: I guess I should stop referring to it as bugged damage then. :shocked:

sorceressgod: it's not really that the clouds deal physical damage instead of poison, it's more in addition to. The way poison javalin works, as I understand it, is that for every game frame you're moving through the cloud the poison damage gets reset, or re-dealt. Poison is already a per-frame type of damage, so when poison gets re-dealt it only really increases the duration. Physical damage, however (besides Open Wounds), is a one-time-deal type of damage. When you tack on 41-55 per frame physical damage to the 23 over 2 seconds per frame poison damage you end up with a lot of physical damage over time.

[krischan]

hmm, so the viper bug is that it's poison clouds gives physical damage instead?
Not really. Many special attacks from monsters deal a part of the monster's physical damage in addition, e.g. lightning from gloams/souls. The bug is that the cloud deals that damage multiple times while you are moving within it. That means, if you teleport into a cloud and then out again, or if you stand still and attack while shift is pressed, you suffer the damage once, but if you e.g. walk through it for one second, you suffer the damage multiple times, causing a lot of life (more if you are amped or decrepped, less if you have DR). I'm not sure what happens when you are jumping. WWing is probably very deadly because you can't stop it, but barbs have BO and a little DR helps a lot as well, as aleady said.

[kingdryland]

"Works as intended" translates as "It is a bug of course but we are too bored/proud to fix it". Poison clouds dealing physical damage per frame? As intended???

[krischan]

It's meant like "Stop your whining, wimps !", I guess :azn:

[RTB]

Not really. Many special attacks from monsters deal a part of the monster's physical damage in addition, e.g. lightning from gloams/souls. The bug is that the cloud deals that damage multiple times while you are moving within it. That means, if you teleport into a cloud and then out again, or if you stand still and attack while shift is pressed, you suffer the damage once, but if you e.g. walk through it for one second, you suffer the damage multiple times, causing a lot of life (more if you are amped or decrepped, less if you have DR). I'm not sure what happens when you are jumping. WWing is probably very deadly because you can't stop it, but barbs have BO and a little DR helps a lot as well, as aleady said.
Gloams do not deal physical dmg with their lightning attack, it's 100% lightning. The bug with them is that the mana burn dmg values (also bugged btw) are used instead of the intended values. That's a base of 200 - 300 instead of 5 - 190 in hell. The mana burn bug btw, multiplies the listed values by 256 for melee attacks, pretty much emptying mana bulbs of any size.

The Tomb Viper missile isn't technically a bug, just a simple typo in the data files. Could be fixed in seconds.

[Frosty_The_Snowman]

The Tomb Viper missile isn't technically a bug, just a simple typo in the data files. Could be fixed in seconds.Damn :shocked: ! Hey Blizzard, what are you waiting for ? :angry: :nervous:

[kingdryland]

Frosty,take a look around your room. Is there something very wrong yet totally insignificant that you can't be bother to fix?

[krischan]

Gloams do not deal physical dmg with their lightning attack, it's 100% lightning. The bug with them is that the mana burn dmg values (also bugged btw) are used instead of the intended values. That's a base of 200 - 300 instead of 5 - 190 in hell. The mana burn bug btw, multiplies the listed values by 256 for melee attacks, pretty much emptying mana bulbs of any size.

The Tomb Viper missile isn't technically a bug, just a simple typo in the data files. Could be fixed in seconds.
I didn't mean to explain the gloams' huge lightning damage with physical damage, I just wanted to provide an example where a part of physical damage is added to special attacks. I agree that was a confusing example.

Anyway, if you say that a gloam's lightning attack doesn't deal any physical damage at all, that surprises me a little. In case of a boss pack which has mana burn as a boss ability on top of their normal mana burn, it gets applied through their lightning attack. I always thought that mana burn as a boss ability is only applied together with physical damage (I might be wrong here), so I concluded that they deal a part of their physical damage in addition to the lightning damage. I assumed their physical damage is very small anyway (my characters just notice the empty mana bulb when they get hit by their melee attack :azn: ), so with enough lightning absorb and resist, they still deal practically no damage.

However, when I think about it, it should be like that with amp as well AFAIK, but I cannot remember that my characters ever got amped by a cursed boss gloam's lightning attack. That means the boss mana burn might be applied differently.

I'm confused :dizzy:

Damn :shocked: ! Hey Blizzard, what are you waiting for ?
They probably like it the way it is :evil:

[PhatTrumpet]

The way to (pretty much) prove that Gloams don't deal any physical damage with their lightning bolts: run around with TGod's and 85%res. You'll take zero damage at the very least; you might even get healed. 20 lightning absorb shouldn't be enough to negate the lightning damage and whatever presumed physical damage there may be.

Also, have you ever encountered a mana burn lightning skelly (Horror Mage) pack? Their missles are pure lightning damage, yet they eat up your mana bulb like nothing.

[McCain123]

Thundergods alone won´t negate the damage of regular gloams.

Thundergods and 85% res = damaging gloams
Thundergods, 85% res, 13 magic dam red from viper = damaging gloams
Thundergods, 85% res, 15 m dam red from dwarf = damaging gloams
Thundergods, 85% res, 28 m dam red from both = healing gloams

[RTB]

Let's do the math, shall we? :scratch:

An Mlvl 85 Gloam does 192 - 288 lightning dmg with one Lightning shot.

Normal hit:
85% resist: 28+204/256 - 43+51/256 dmg
85% resist+20 absorb:
At full life: 8+204/256 - 23+51/256 dmg
Not at full life (at least 20 below it): -12-204/256 - 3+51/256

Critical hit (384 - 576 dmg):
85% resist: 57+153/256 - 86+102/256 dmg
85% resist+20 absorb:
At full life: 37+153/256 - 66+102/256 dmg
Not at full life (at least 20 below it): 17+153/256 - 46+102/256

avg dmg: .95 * (-12-204/256 + 3+51/256)/2 + 0.05 * (17+153/256 + 46+102/256) = -2-245.5/256 ~ -2.96
You get healed on average, about 76% of the attacks actually, assuming you're at full life-20 or less.

MDR doesn't have much effect, 15 MDR reduces the avg dmg by 2.25 points, 30 MDR 4.5 points.

[Frosty_The_Snowman]

Let's do the math, shall we? :scratch:

An Mlvl 85 Gloam does 192 - 288 lightning dmg with one Lightning shot.

Normal hit:
85% resist: 28+204/256 - 43+51/256 dmg
85% resist+20 absorb:
At full life: 8+204/256 - 23+51/256 dmg
Not at full life (at least 20 below it): -12-204/256 - 3+51/256

Critical hit (384 - 576 dmg):
85% resist: 57+153/256 - 86+102/256 dmg
85% resist+20 absorb:
At full life: 37+153/256 - 66+102/256 dmg
Not at full life (at least 20 below it): 17+153/256 - 46+102/256

avg dmg: .95 * (-12-204/256 + 3+51/256)/2 + 0.05 * (17+153/256 + 46+102/256) = -2-245.5/256 ~ -2.96
You get healed on average, about 76% of the attacks actually, assuming you're at full life-20 or less.

MDR doesn't have much effect, 15 MDR reduces the avg dmg by 2.25 points, 30 MDR 4.5 points.
Pretty interesting math, so you assume that Gloams deal Critical Strike 50% of the time ?

[Orphan]

Pretty interesting math, so you assume that Gloams deal Critical Strike 50% of the time ?

If you're talking about the 0.05, then it's only 5% chance of a critical, which is what the gloams do have.

[McCain123]

Let's do the math, shall we? :scratch:

An Mlvl 85 Gloam does 192 - 288 lightning dmg with one Lightning shot.

Normal hit:
85% resist: 28+204/256 - 43+51/256 dmg
85% resist+20 absorb:
At full life: 8+204/256 - 23+51/256 dmg
Not at full life (at least 20 below it): -12-204/256 - 3+51/256

Critical hit (384 - 576 dmg):
85% resist: 57+153/256 - 86+102/256 dmg
85% resist+20 absorb:
At full life: 37+153/256 - 66+102/256 dmg
Not at full life (at least 20 below it): 17+153/256 - 46+102/256

avg dmg: .95 * (-12-204/256 + 3+51/256)/2 + 0.05 * (17+153/256 + 46+102/256) = -2-245.5/256 ~ -2.96
You get healed on average, about 76% of the attacks actually, assuming you're at full life-20 or less.

MDR doesn't have much effect, 15 MDR reduces the avg dmg by 2.25 points, 30 MDR 4.5 points.

Nice math, but tests show a different picture. Go to throne with 85% lightning res and wear a Thundergod. You won´t get healed in 3 out of 4 shots.

[ToThePoint]

Nice math, but tests show a different picture. Go to throne with 85% lightning res and wear a Thundergod. You won´t get healed in 3 out of 4 shots.
i just did - agree with the maths.
most dangerous part was baals attack if i stood still too long.

the calc has me stumped for a little while in using 256s but then saw wasn't being truncated.
Maybe a bit slow today but why not?

[McCain123]

I wasn´t talking about Baals attacks. Don´t even know, if they are lightning, as some are cold. I was talking about souls. Create a soul monoculture by wearing the equipment I suggest to get immune. When there are only souls arround shooting at you, switch armor parts.

[ToThePoint]

I wasn´t talking about Baals attacks. Don´t even know, if they are lightning, as some are cold. I was talking about souls. Create a soul monoculture by wearing the equipment I suggest to get immune. When there are only souls arround shooting at you, switch armor parts.
well ofc you weren't and neither was i. initially i tested in worldstone and that was the most dangerous part of the test - waiting in 1 spot for the souls to hit me.
I had zero mdr pdr +replife 85res 20absorb from tgod.

[krischan]

Even if they still hurt you a little bit, they won't really be a threat with maximum res and T-God's. The issue will become a little more dramatic when a conviction boss is near or an OK cast lower resistance on you, of course...

[Unazitrap]

Mmh, with Gladiator you can already reach 20. Very interesting... :scratch:
Getting back to the subject (aka Nihlathak's Vipers) what can be the answer? It can't be Gladiator, my merc got one and, with ~4k life, poor guy can't deal with that kind of damage.

So, the question still stands: how much (and what kind of) dmg red you need to kill 'em safely enough? :scratch:

Thank you.

[PhatTrumpet]

Tomb Viper:
Attack 1, ranged, 41-55 physical damage, poison damage 23, duration 2.00 seconds
Attack 2, melee, physical damage 60-83, attack rating 4884, poison damage 30, duration 5.00 seconds
From page 1.

If d2data.net is correct, you'd need 55 PDR to be immune 100% of the time, even when Amped since straight PDR factors in before physical resistance (%DR). Champion Vipers might be a different story, but you should never bother with them as that means you've gone down the wrong wing.

As I already said, I run around with 37 PDR and don't really notice any damage.