Maximum character speed.

[kingdryland]

Ok ,what would be the absolute speedy gonzales of D2? A an amazon with m'avina belt,aldur's boots, a full inventory of frw charms,a harmony bow,a cat's eye and a frw circlet? But she would be beaten by a pally that has all of the above and charges around..Or would an assassin with BoS outrun him? Would she be beaten by a max increased speed barb? Are wolves the fastest perhaps? Anyone having a clue?

[Archedgar]

I have no proof, no hard data, but I'd have to guess that a paladin using charge and vigor pretty much leaves all non teleporting classes in the proverbial dust...

[PhatTrumpet]

If it's a character actively using a skill to do the moving for them, Charge + Vigor > all.

If it's a character going off of more passive skill bonuses and just running, probably a Frenzy Barb.

[Orphan]

Faster Run Walk granted by skills do not suffer the diminishing returns of those granted by items, so you would probably look at skill FRW. If you allow inter-class skills, then a Burst of Speed assassin with a Harmony Bow could probably get quite fast.

Additionally, since the penalty given by armors (-5% FRW for Medium, -10% FRW for Heavy) is treated the same as skill FRW, though negative, you would want to make sure you use a light armor.


Edit:
If it's a character actively using a skill to do the moving for them, Charge + Vigor > all

But is charge classed as running though. I mean, if we're going to allow skills, then we'd also need to allow Teleport?

[PhatTrumpet]

Teleport isn't a continuous, fast movement from one point to another, it's an instantaneous change of position (for the math people, the derivative of your position with respect to time is zero :tongue: ). What would be the point in considering it anyway?

So basically it's between max BoS 'Harmony' Assasin and a max Increased Speed Frenzy Barb... anyone care to test/calculate? :cool:

[Orphan]

It would depend on what context we are talking about with regards to a "continuous, fast movement". If we're talking about the appearance of a character, then I can agree with you, but if we're talking about the process of travelling from point A to point B, then teleport would certainly be plausible.

Likewise, the "derivative of your position with respect to time" is only 0 if you are again only taking into account a single teleport. If we were talking about teleporting from the Rogue Camp to Cold Plains, then we'd be comparing the time between leaving the starting position and arriving at the destination, which would definately not be 0 for teleport.

In any event, I also believe that Teleport should not be included in the tests. The point I was trying to make was that Charge should also be considered to be not included. :tongue:

[kingdryland]

My idea was any non teleporting means of travelling. Teleport is affected only by fcr ,while charge can be affected by skill frw bonus (vigor comes in mind).

I started the thread because while i was considering an ideal frw gear setup an issue appeared:

30frw circlet type of headgear (+30% obviously)
cat's eye amulet (+30%)
Enigma in a light armor (+45%,no penalty)
Any 40% frw boots,ik,aldur's etc or 40% frw magical ones
mav belt (+20%)
First though for weapon was wind for the 20% frw,but then harmony bow came in mind with that vigor. And that's where skills come into the game.

[PhatTrumpet]

Likewise, the "derivative of your position with respect to time" is only 0 if you are again only taking into account a single teleport. If we were talking about teleporting from the Rogue Camp to Cold Plains, then we'd be comparing the time between leaving the starting position and arriving at the destination, which would definately not be 0 for teleport.
Correct me if I'm wrong because it's been a while, but the derivative of a particle's position with respect to time is merely its velocity (or the change in position over an infinitesimally small period of time, if you prefer). A Teleporting character is never actually moving, so the derivative is always zero. Why would this analysis be any different for a series of Teleports rather than just one?

[Tripredacus]

I made a WW Druid once that had a faster run speed of about 200%. Not counting the speed bonus from skills. He was my fastest ever, but Frenzied barb may be faster.

Fastest merc I have seen is an act 2 merc with an Enigma on. He zoomed all over the place, but I think he was too fast for himself to handle. Kept getting stuck places. Like one time waiting for a TP in Act 2, he somehow got behind the bar in the restaurant and was stuck there.

[kingdryland]

Like one time waiting for a TP in Act 2, he somehow got behind the bar in the restaurant and was stuck there.

Boozing with geglash I bet...

[Dennis_KoreanGuy]

Ok ,what would be the absolute speedy gonzales of D2?
So many chars on open desynch simply by running... >.<

[Orphan]

Correct me if I'm wrong because it's been a while, but the derivative of a particle's position with respect to time is merely its velocity (or the change in position over an infinitesimally small period of time, if you prefer). A Teleporting character is never actually moving, so the derivative is always zero. Why would this analysis be any different for a series of Teleports rather than just one?

You're not the only one who hasn't done this in awhile, because I haven't either :undecided:

You're probably right about the "derivative" definition, but I was more-so referring to the the time between two points, irregardless of the character. To put it another way, the time it would take for Character X to travel between two points: Point A and Point B.

[kingdryland]

Feel free to include teleport to the calculations although it's somewhat erratic here.

[Orphan]

Well, here's some numbers for you:

A Character's normal run speed: 6 yards/s. Let's hope I calculated these correctly.

Case 1:
Assassin:
Level 20 Burst of Speed: 61% FRW
Level 10 Vigor (Harmony): 36% FRW
40% FRW Boots
30% FRW Circlet
20% FRW Mavs Belt
45% FRW Enigma (light armor)
10x 7% FRW Grand Charms

Total Run speed = 13.32 yards/s


Case 2:
Paladin
Level 20 vigor: 43% FRW
Charge
Light Armor

Total Charge Speed = 12.87 yard/s


Case 4:
Barbarian
Level 20 Frenzy = 171% FRW
Level 10 Vigor (Harmony) = 36% FRW
40% FRW Boots
30% FRW Circlet
20% FRW Mavs Belt
45% FRW Enigma
Light Armor
10x 7% FRW Grand Charms

Total Run Speed = 17.72 yard/s (though only lasts 6 seconds)



Teleport Scenario:
Included seperately, because it's technically not running.
Sorceress
On an 800x600 resolution
200% FCR (7 fps teleport) = roughly 3 teleports a second
- 50% Wizardspike
- 35% Spirit
- 20% Arachnids Mesh
- 20% Magefist
- 25% Griffins Eye
- 30% Vipermagi
- 20% Caster Amulet --or-- 2x10% Rings

Since the teleport distance is limited only by the amount you can see on your screen, it'll be different depending on the direction that the teleporter is going:

Left or Right: 8 yards per teleport (roughy) = 24 yard/s travel time
Up or Down: 11 yards per teleport (roughly) = 33 yard/s travel time

[karious]

You could also include increased speed to the barbarians faster run/walk total which, at level 20, would add 43% FRW. On another note, the added skills from a circlet or enigma would increase the totals as well. So, i suppose you could add bk rings or stones of jordan (annihilus, hellfire torch and battle command) to add to the total. Also dual wind swords would give 40% FRW intsead of 37% from the harmony. Although with total plus to all skills, 6 total, the harmony would be 1% faster.

Karious

[Orphan]

Yea, I forgot about Increased Speed for the barb. Here's the modified Case 4 Entry:

Case 4:
Barbarian
Level 20 Frenzy = 171% FRW
Level 20 Increased Speed = 43% FRW
Level 10 Vigor (Harmony) = 36% FRW
40% FRW Boots
30% FRW Circlet
20% FRW Mavs Belt
45% FRW Enigma
Light Armor
10x 7% FRW Grand Charms

Total Run Speed = 19.44 yard/s (though only lasts 6 seconds)



I chose not to include +skills into the count, because most (if not all) of the skills that increase your FRW have really bad diminishing returns as they go up in levels. For example, assuming the above barb had a level 25 frenzy and a level 25 increased speed, his FRW speed would increase from 19.44 to 19.76 yard/s.


Likewise, skill based FRW is generally better than item based FRW, since item based FRW suffer diminishing returns when applied to the FRW equation, unlike skill based FRW. For example, the same barb above but with 2 winds, instead of a harmony bow:


Level 20 Frenzy = 171% FRW
Level 20 Increased Speed = 43% FRW
2x Wind runewords = 40% FRW
40% FRW Boots
30% FRW Circlet
20% FRW Mavs Belt
45% FRW Enigma
Light Armor
10x 7% FRW Grand Charms

Total Run Speed: 18.28 yard/s

[Quietus]

Another contender might be the feral rage druid - probably less speed than a barb, but the charge lasts longer. Frenzy is irritating to keep going. For a short while, the barb would be screaming fast, but as soon as frenzy wears out, the druid would likely have the edge.

[Orphan]

Unfortunatly, the Druid's feral rage will only help to keep up to the Barbarian's natural increase run/walk skill. At level 20, Feral Rage adds 55% FRW, while the Barbarian's level 20 Increased Run/Walk skill adds 43% FRW.

So with the same equip, the Druid would only be slightly faster than the Barb, without Frenzy powered up:

Druid:
Level 20 Feral Rage = 55% FRW
Level 10 Vigor (Harmony) = 36% FRW
40% FRW Boots
30% FRW Circlet
20% FRW Mavs Belt
45% FRW Enigma
Light Armor
10x 7% FRW Grand Charms

Total Run Speed = 13.08 yard/s


Barbarian (without Frenzy):
Level 20 Increased Speed = 43% FRW
Level 10 Vigor (Harmony) = 36% FRW
40% FRW Boots
30% FRW Circlet
20% FRW Mavs Belt
45% FRW Enigma
Light Armor
10x 7% FRW Grand Charms

Total Run Speed = 12.6 yard/s

[ToThePoint]

another pretty fast would be wolf barb with feral from wolfhowl, inc speed natural skill and vigor from harmony

on teleport, whilst the char never 'moves' it certainly travels between 2 points which are a known distance apart and it takes a certain time for it to happen limited by fcr so the 'derivative isn't truely zero' even for 1 tele

btw why the use of 7run grand charms? why not 3run scs or even 5run scs?

[Orphan]

You mean 5%FRW large charms.

I used 7% FRW Grand Charms due to 2 reasons. The first being that it would probably be easier to get them, and the second being that the higher the item-based FRW got, the less benefit you gain from them.

that said, as long as every case is treated with similiar circumstances, then the difference is still pointed out. By this I mean that if the assassin setup is faster than a druid setup with 10x7%FRW GC's, then that'll still be the case with x amount of 5% FRW LC's.

If someone wants to work out the perfect setup of FRW gear for each build (charms, crafted items, etc), then I'll be happy to do the calculations on them.

The wolfbarb's a good point. I'm going to assume a level 9 Feral Rage (perfect +6, +1 battle cry, +2 enigma):

Barbarian (WolfBarb)
level 20 Increased Speed = 43% FRW
level 10 Vigor (Harmony) = 36% FRW
level 9 Feral Rage = 46% FRW
40% FRW Boots
20% FRW Mavs Belt
45% FRW Enigma
Light Armor
10x 7% FRW Grand Charms

Total Run Speed: 14.2 yard/s

[ToThePoint]

nah i mean 5run scs, plenty exist on nl still from 08/09.
i thought the 7runs were for the fact you could get a skill on them but then as the skills get diminishing returns at high levels might not make much difference anyway.
how easy they are to get is not much of a factor when enigma is there for run.

[Orphan]

Well, by ease I sort of meant availability, not necessarily expense. Although it's been awhile since I followed the trade scene, I do not remember people exactly keeping FRW charms, so it might be difficult for someone to even potentially fill their inventory up with 5%FRW large charms, or 3% FRW Small Charms.

Enigma's on the other hand, are pretty much around everywhere.

[ToThePoint]

5run small!! charms :)
As this thread shows there is plenty of interest in run speed and as such the charms are kept by many/most imo.

[PhatTrumpet]

on teleport, whilst the char never 'moves' it certainly travels between 2 points which are a known distance apart and it takes a certain time for it to happen limited by fcr so the 'derivative isn't truely zero' even for 1 tele
You're talking about average velocity, not the derivative of position vs. time (or instantaneous velocity). I would've brushed up a bit if I'd realized this was going to turn into a math lesson, but here goes.

Sure, the average velocity is the distance traveled divided by the amount of time it takes to get there... obviously not zero.

The derivative, however, relates to the mathematical function (or graph) of position vs. time. For a while you're at one point, then suddenly (instantaneously) you're at another point, then another and so on. If you graph the position on the y-axis and time on the x-axis you'll get a series of discontinous horizontal lines, each relating to a particular position with length equal to the amount of time spent at that position. Now what is the derivative but the slope of the curve? What's the slope of a horizontal line? Now if you're talking about the end points of those lines, that's an entirely different story (undefined, I believe, at the end points).

[ToThePoint]

yes thats 'true' (wasn't really thinking) but means a big fat zero.
anyways in game terms as the time is incremented in frames and cannot be broken into time 'blah blah approaching zero' i think its safe to assume that the character doesn't occupy the start and finish positions at once therefore the 'instantaneous' travel is infact taking 1 frame and so the derivative isn't zero.

[PhatTrumpet]

Still not quite sure I buy what you're saying. Once you quantify things in terms of game frames doesn't that completely ruin the concept of a derivative (the graph would be a series of discontinuous points rather than discontinuous lines)? That's certainly one way of analyzing things... not always the most interesting or useful, but more realistic in this case I suppose.

The character doesn't occupy the start and finish positions at once, but can't the character be "here" one frame and then "there" the very next frame? Anyone remember drawing those graphs in algebra with the closed dots (inclusive) and open dots (exclusive)? :grin: The graph I described earlier with the discontinuous horizontal lines would have a closed dot at the start time and an open dot at the end time for each position.

Wow, this is getting pretty dorky.

[ToThePoint]

hopefully it does ruin the concept :grin: but anyway to summarise: teleport is pretty speedy.

[Jurjen]

You could use the harmony on an act 1 rogue merc

[kingdryland]

You could use the harmony on an act 1 rogue merc

Good point but in real terms it may have weird applications,meaning that the merc will constantly stay behind (we are speedy) and the aura will be on and off all the time...or not?

[Orphan]

5run small!! charms :)
As this thread shows there is plenty of interest in run speed and as such the charms are kept by many/most imo.

I know you keep saying 5% FRW small charms, but I'm a ladder player, so these options aren't there for me. :smiley:

Also, since they are pre 1.10, it would be harder still to get them, not to mention that the forums do not allow trading in those anyway (well, I know that West doesn't allow trading in 1.08 item).

[ToThePoint]

I know you keep saying 5% FRW small charms, but I'm a ladder player, so these options aren't there for me. :smiley:

Also, since they are pre 1.10, it would be harder still to get them, not to mention that the forums do not allow trading in those anyway (well, I know that West doesn't allow trading in 1.08 item).Yeah but you kept saying large :)
Those options are there for many though so could be considered too.
As run charms are common and pre1.10 spanned a long time there are loads of them about and as you cant tell a 08 from a 09 5run sc they are not banned in trade forums :)

[darkcrystal]

high 20's vigor (46 frw - seems to be the max?)
nigma (45 frw)
infernostride (20 frw)
this is my current pally build. i used to use aldurs (40) then i found inferno's and i really couldnt tell the differece between the two :/

[thegiantturtle]

I know you keep saying 5% FRW small charms, but I'm a ladder player, so these options aren't there for me. :smiley:

Also, since they are pre 1.10, it would be harder still to get them, not to mention that the forums do not allow trading in those anyway (well, I know that West doesn't allow trading in 1.08 item).

5% frw charms spawned in 1.09 ergo they can be traded.

I posted on other forums a year ago about barb speed. It was before the realm-only 1.10 runewords were known, so no harmony and no torch. There might also be other changes that would rebalance the best frw and skill gear. Harmony adds 1.44 yds/sec, so that puts the one barb at 20.88 yds/sec before recalculating for extra +skills.

For Barbarians:

If we're maxing item run/walk first:

45% Enigma (light armor)
30% Cats Eye:
20% Mav's belt:
40% Boots
30% Circlet
120% (40x 3% frw charms) or 200% (40x5%)
20% wind weapon
20% second wind weapon
_____
325% or 405% item run/walk

Supposing maxed frenzy and IAS w/ the +2 enigma, +2 barb circlet, 2xSOJ/BK rings leaves 26 Frenzy and 26 Increased speed.

From Chippy Dip's skill calculator (http://www.cs.hmc.edu/%7Ecbradfor/diablo2/skills.html):
180% 26 Frenzy
45% 26 Increased speed
_____
225% skill based run/walk

from tommi's page (http://www.hut.fi/%7Etgustafs/movementspeed.html):
EffectiveRunSpeed = BaseRunSpeed + BaseWalkSpeed * (Skill_FRW / 100 + [Item_FRW * 150 / (Item_FRW + 150)] / 100 + Armor_Speed / 100)

BaseRunSpeed = 6yds/sec
BaseWalkSpeed = 4yds/sec
Item_FRW = 325 or 405
Armor_Speed = 0;
Skill_FRW = 225
Item_FRW = 405

EffectiveRunSpeed = 6 + 4*(225/100 + [405*150/(405+150)]/100 + 0/100)
EffectiveRunSpeed ~ 19.38 yds/sec (i'm unclear about diablo's rounding mechanisms)

**************************************
MAX IAS FROM SKILLS FIRST:
**************************************
Both Frenzy and Increased speed:
+2 Enigma w/ 45% frw
+1 SOJ/BK
+1 SOJ/BK
+1 Arachnid mesh
+1 Annihilus

Frenzy Only:
+3 amulet
+5 Frenzy weapon
+5 Frenzy weapon
+3 Circlet w/ 30% frw
+6 Combat charms

Just FRW gear:
40% boots
105% 21x5% frw

45% level 26 Increased Speed
194% level 48 Frenzy

Item_FRW = 230
Skill_FRW = 239
BaseRunSpeed = 6 yds/sec
BaseWalkSpeed = 4 yds/sec
Armor_Speed = 0

EffectiveRunSpeed = BaseRunSpeed + BaseWalkSpeed * (Skill_FRW / 100 + [Item_FRW * 150 / (Item_FRW + 150)] / 100 + Armor_Speed / 100)

EffectiveRunSpeed = 6 + 4*(239/100 + [230*150/(230+150)]/100 + 0/100)
EffectiveRunSPeed ~ 19.19 yds/sec


**************************************
My Guess at optimum gear
**************************************
Both Frenzy and Increased speed:
+2 Enigma w/ 45% frw
+1 SOJ/BK
+1 SOJ/BK
+1 Annihilus

Frenzy Only:
+5 Frenzy weapon
+5 Frenzy weapon
+3 Circlet w/ 30% frw

Just FRW gear:
40% boots
30% cat's eye
20% mav's belt
195% 39x5% frw

44% level 25 Increased speed
191% level 38 Frenzy



Item_FRW = 360
Skill_FRW = 235
BaseRunSpeed = 6 yds/sec
BaseWalkSpeed = 4 yds/sec
Armor_Speed = 0

EffectiveRunSpeed = BaseRunSpeed + BaseWalkSpeed * (Skill_FRW / 100 + [Item_FRW * 150 / (Item_FRW + 150)] / 100 + Armor_Speed / 100)

EffectiveRunSpeed = 6 + 4*(230/100 + [360*150/(360+150)]/100 + 0/100)
EffectiveRunSPeed ~ 19.44 yds/sec


***********************************

With mainly frw gear, we had 19.38 yds/sec
With mainly Skill gear, we had 19.19 yds/sec
With my guess at max, we had 19.44 yds/sec