V/T build or Mage build??

[the boss]

Ahh I read both guides and both are pretty decent but both have have variety which I like about...but which one would be better to play for duels?

V/T
Enigma lp
Shako Ber'd
HoZ non-upped(less strength = more vita)
Grief Zerk or Doom Zerker
Verdungo
Silkweave boots or waterwalk
Bloodfist Up'd
Maras ammy
Raven ring
Bk ring
Pcombats charms, life/mana, fhr, resists scs

Mage
Enigma lp
Shako Ber'd
Hoto or Wizspike or Doom Zerker
Arach mesh
Silkweave boots or waterwalk
Magefist or Trangs glove
Maras ammy
fcr ring
Bk ring
Pcombats charms, life/mana, fhr, resists scs

Which one should I play?:scratch:
Also Waterwalk or Silkweave? I'm not sure of more mana or more life is better...

[kingdryland]

Certainly waterwalks, especially on the v/t. If you want to ruin pub games use a v/t. Foh will scare the hell out of your opponents,and it will force them to go offensively,straight to your smite.(grief zerk,no question about it). Consider a T/V as well,nowadays it is really easy to get a good smite damage without many points invested there.

A mage requires superfast connection,elite gear,loads of skill and experience,patience and talent with hotkeys. If you have these,make one. Trying to dodge invisible hammers while receiving foh isn't pleasant to anyone.

[kingdryland]

By the way,now that we have torches why enigma light plate? Mage plate has a base str. requirement of 55,it takes a medium stats anni and a medium torch to get you there.

[the boss]

ah man...its still 50% vs 50%....hard choice

[MegaFlame]

v/t is more popular these days.

[dkay]

for pubs: v.t
for priv: mage

reason being, v.ts even when sorbed have fully powered smite.
mages would be screwed in pubs since its bm and they can sorb you, leaving you with a half decent hammer (usually 8k dmg average)

[TarnishedHope]

V/T, since I sincerely hate hammerdins. (no skills needed in PvP)

[kingdryland]

Hammers take a lot of skill in pvp,it is not the easiest thing to desynch nicely.

[RetroStar]

V/T, since I sincerely hate hammerdins. (no skills needed in PvP)

If you're talking skill wise here. Mages outruns V/T by miles in terms of skills needed.

I've tried both and I find mages extremely hard to use. I might put it as one of the hardest pala to use in pvp.

If you're just starting out with PvP Palas. Start with a V/T.

Also I would say a mage can kill more pubs than a V/T.

[order]

ur mage build will definately require a griffs to get both of ur dmgs high enough. so if u can afford it build a mage if not go for the v/t. and make sure u hit some nice break points on either of these builds or they wont be very viable in pvp.

[the boss]

Sounds cool, I'm gonna go with V/T now. I may not have enough wealth for enough pcombats since the biggest thing on him is a grief zerker. I could trade my 410%+ ebotdz for 2 pcombats...anyways do you guys think that offensive gcs can also be useful as pcombats? More fana or more conviction...but less smite and foh...anyways I'll see if I can get the most pcombats for sure..

[MegaFlame]

Do you already have a grief? If not, I would get one with that ebotdz you got.

[dkay]

If you're talking skill wise here. Mages outruns V/T by miles in terms of skills needed.

I've tried both and I find mages extremely hard to use. I might put it as one of the hardest pala to use in pvp.

If you're just starting out with PvP Palas. Start with a V/T.

Also I would say a mage can kill more pubs than a V/T.

mages arent too hard. just many hotkeys. id say ghosts are harder. i think iwas pretty good with mages and this was before i discovered the joys of using keyboard keys and not "F" keys lol. but yes. they are harder to use than v.ts.

still i would choose v.ts in pub since smite is hard enough in pub duels. mages have problems against multiple zons, druids and high resist trappers imo.

[built2burn]

mages arent too hard. just many hotkeys. id say ghosts are harder. i think iwas pretty good with mages and this was before i discovered the joys of using keyboard keys and not "F" keys lol. but yes. they are harder to use than v.ts.

still i would choose v.ts in pub since smite is hard enough in pub duels. mages have problems against multiple zons, druids and high resist trappers imo.


well u can still put a crappy grief on ur mage and crush bow zons and trappers and do better against druids(depends good u are with namelocking them)

[MegaFlame]

Grief on a mage? No need, hoto is the best.

[RetroStar]

Grief on a mage? No need, hoto is the best.

Try killing zons/trappers/etc charging with a hoto.

[RetroStar]

mages arent too hard. just many hotkeys. id say ghosts are harder. i think iwas pretty good with mages and this was before i discovered the joys of using keyboard keys and not "F" keys lol. but yes. they are harder to use than v.ts.

still i would choose v.ts in pub since smite is hard enough in pub duels. mages have problems against multiple zons, druids and high resist trappers imo.

mages imo do better because mages will destroy nearly all melee chars with ease just from spamming hammer and casting foh hiding in the hammer field. they also do better vs. casters compared to V/Ts which rely heavily on charge which is rendered nearly useless if the caster plays defensive. desyncing invisible hammers definately help in dueling defensive casters. also mages imo do a lot better than V/T vs. bvcs. (well from experience mostly)

[MegaFlame]

Try killing zons/trappers/etc charging with a hoto.
Kill them with hammer, your charge damage will be too low anyways.

[vietl0yalty]

Kill them with hammer, your charge damage will be too low anyways.

your chances of killing a zon with hammers is next to nothing... taking into consideration that the zon has a faith bow and is firing a barrage of guided arrows in different directions... so you make the choice... use grief or die... hoto is not an option in this case :undecided:

[MegaFlame]

Lol too bad but it's not like you'd have that much of a chance with grief either. If she does shoot multi arrows then you get hit anyways and by teleing next to her and spam hammers like crazy and then tele away is much better than some lvl 1 charge (more with gears) and since you won't have points or just a few in vigor you won't desyn either. A non-desyn charger gets hit really easy.

[kingdryland]

Lol too bad but it's not like you'd have that much of a chance with grief either. If she does shoot multi arrows then you get hit anyways and by teleing next to her and spam hammers like crazy and then tele away is much better than some lvl 1 charge (more with gears) and since you won't have points or just a few in vigor you won't desyn either. A non-desyn charger gets hit really easy.

Actually you can desynch with charge only too.I have been reported desynching while charging vigorless by pvp opponents.

[RetroStar]

Lol too bad but it's not like you'd have that much of a chance with grief either. If she does shoot multi arrows then you get hit anyways and by teleing next to her and spam hammers like crazy and then tele away is much better than some lvl 1 charge (more with gears) and since you won't have points or just a few in vigor you won't desyn either. A non-desyn charger gets hit really easy.

Try using one before commenting on it.

My T/V uses 1 pt charge vs. zons/sorcs/windys and it is enough for kills. For most sorcs (non ES)/zons without block its 1-2 hit KO for sure.

Also I don't see how multi arrow could do massive dmg.

Try spamming hammer near a dodging zon. You'll first have to get close to the zon, tele lock and tele on top of her. If she dodges them, she will probably run a few steps back and start GAing you. she will just continue to take small steps until you die. Your tele + hammer will not be fast enough to catch her in motion Also play defensive on a bowzon with a hammerdin?? you're joking.

Again, try charging with 1 pt grief with 1 pt charge. (even without +skills)

Why won't you have vigor on a mage? Even 1 pt is enough to desync. Also you can desync without vigor.

Also a non desyncing charger charging a zon isnt easy to hit. GA will not KB the paladin in charging motion and good luck doing massive dmg with multi.

If you're the zon and decide to run AWAY from the charger, bad idea.

If you want proof what 1pt charge + grief will do on a decked out char and you're on US East NL.

*star.

[RetroStar]

Can't edit:

Also the same applies to trappers as well. I would love to see a hammerdin kill a trapper on a constant basis with just tele hammer or desync.

A trapper will just lay traps and laugh at you while you get fhr from MB and traps attempting to hit a constantly moving trapper with tele hammer.

Anyone show him the dmg with a 400dmg grief + 1pt charge through calculations?

[dkay]

Can't edit:

Also the same applies to trappers as well. I would love to see a hammerdin kill a trapper on a constant basis with just tele hammer or desync.

A trapper will just lay traps and laugh at you while you get fhr from MB and traps attempting to hit a constantly moving trapper with tele hammer.

Anyone show him the dmg with a 400dmg grief + 1pt charge through calculations?

any hdin can slap on grief and charge/smite trappers. i do it all the time.
also who says that hdins have to be the agressor? a hdin can simply desync around a trapper until he decides to get out. REAL good desyncers can throw hammers in a trappers field without him even knowing it. (he'll only see the traps go off but miss)

[RetroStar]

any hdin can slap on grief and charge/smite trappers. i do it all the time.



yea. that's what i'm saying. the other guy said you could still beat trappers/zons/etc with using hoto and just tele/hammer and how 1pt charge with grief won't do enough dmg. read the post above that one.


also who says that hdins have to be the agressor? a hdin can simply desync around a trapper until he decides to get out. REAL good desyncers can throw hammers in a trappers field without him even knowing it. (he'll only see the traps go off but miss)

if hdin plays defensive, the trapper can play defensive as well. traps outrange hammers. i can also say REAL good trappers can run around (into unexplored areas) to avoid being desynced as well. :P

[order]

i think a lot of u are forgeting that we are talking about a mage build not a hammer build. foh has greater range in most cases than traps. zons vs foh = dead. mages mainly use hammer defensively not as an offensive.

[RetroStar]

i think a lot of u are forgeting that we are talking about a mage build not a hammer build. foh has greater range in most cases than traps. zons vs foh = dead. mages mainly use hammer defensively not as an offensive.

How can foh outrange traps unless you AA. You'll need a namelock for you to shoot foh offscreen and I doubt trappers will often get on the same screen.

Also zons have D/A/E. Due to foh is a timered spell, if the zon is able to dodge the foh, she can either run away or attack you during that huge cast delay.

And you can optimize your foh/hammer. Hammer doesnt always have to be defensive. I have a friend who's mage utilizes hammer more than foh since he uses foh to hit people who play defensive or run away.

[order]

zons also have a dodge time delay which i tend to use to my advantage whenever i play against them. if they block u can simply charge and get in closer range leaving the zon with little options unless they are are a hybrid, but u always have hammer. what i mean by more range on foh is that traps can easily be avoided at the distance u will be standing from them while u can get a hit in on the sin unless they use claw block which could pose a problem. i know hammer can be offensive but in the cases ur explaining hammer would be somewhat less effective.

[Quietus]

Anyone show him the dmg with a 400dmg grief + 1pt charge through calculations?



Let's assume :

Using shako/enigma/torch/anni/cta/spirit

That's +10 skills. Let's also assume 100 strength, level 20 concentration (after items) and 10 vigor - fair? Probably underpowered, but we can decide that later. If someone gives me actual numbers, I'll calculate those.

Using a 400 damage average grief (Which, in a zerker, is actually below average significantly) You have :

400 * [(charge ed + strength ed + concentrate ed)/100 + 1]

So! 400 * [(550 + 100 + 345)/100 + 1]
400 * (995/100 + 1)
400 * 10.95
=4380

So even at this, we're looking at over 4,000 damage, and I think it's safe to say that this is underpowered, as far as calculations go. If you start adding in 9x pcombats, 2x sojs, arach, higher strength, all of the ed added by concentration and charge's increased levels... Every level of Charge adds another 100 damage, so we'd be looking at... oh, another 1200 damage there... Every level of concentration adds another 60, so that's another 720 there... I'll leave Vigor where it is, I don't know the skill setup of a Mage all that well, so I think 10 raw points into vigor is fine. But we're still looking at over 6000 damage now - so that one point charge suddenly becomes 1,000 pvp damage. And bowzons aren't known for their damage reduction/blocking.

As for trappers and FoH - FoH automatically aims, if you're within something like a screen and a half. All the mage or v/t has to do is sidestep, foh, sidestep, foh, sidestep... you get the idea. Assassin eventually gets sick of getting chipped away at.