View Full Version : Is Grief considered BM ?
DennisBergkamp
04-03-2006, 23:27
Was in a duel game yesterday, and someone told me that Grief is considered BM in duels. Anyone have any thoughts on this ?
Funny thing is, wasn't even using grief :grin:
Phyrexial
04-03-2006, 23:38
No, it's not BM.
Valvolux
04-03-2006, 23:57
Anything that kills the other person is BM, haven't ppl worked that out yet? lol
HappyAssassin
05-03-2006, 00:03
A guy I dueled told me mind blast was BM in duels. In his word "Totally illegal." People don't like things that kill them. Grief kills people. Therefor, some people will call it BM. There are duelers around who would like for you to run at them in a straight line with a cracked short sword and try to normal attack them to death with a sorceress. Some people just can't deal with losing at all. Ignore em. I hate Hammers, Bone Spirit, Infinity Mercs, Grief/Beast BvCs, Blizzard and Auradins, but they aren't BM because they are hard for me to kill. If everyone dueled the way these "this is BM, that's BM" guys did, there would be no challange at all in the game.
HappyAssassin
05-03-2006, 00:03
A guy I dueled told me mind blast was BM in duels. In his word "Totally illegal." People don't like things that kill them. Grief kills people. Therefor, some people will call it BM. There are duelers around who would like for you to run at them in a straight line with a cracked short sword and try to normal attack them to death with a sorceress. Some people just can't deal with losing at all. Ignore em. I hate Hammers, Bone Spirit, Infinity Mercs, Grief/Beast BvCs, Blizzard and Auradins, but they aren't BM because they are hard for me to kill. If everyone dueled the way these "this is BM, that's BM" guys did, there would be no challange at all in the game.
Yeath anything that kills is Bm .... you can't win watever you do in pubby duells.
To me the only thing that are BM are abusive language (squelch) and nking (exit and reenter) and potions (in softcore - it does not determine who has the better char but who has the most potions. I accept hardcore is a bit different)
LordOfDesttructtion
05-03-2006, 07:03
I know most zealers don't allow for poison damage in the duels, and as such Grief is consiedered bm. Me I don't use it duels, since most people are against it, but if someone uses it against me I don't care, it's all in good fun. I just look at it as being a bigger challenge.
the boss
05-03-2006, 08:19
pubby = no rules
If they're complaining about BM, there's only one thing to do :
Slap on a doom zerker, cleg's gloves, and nos coil, then run screaming at them going "WHO'S BM NOW????"
People whine and complain about the poison damage that grief does but has anyone ever calculated how much damage it actually does do?
I mean, will the life that slowly seeps away from the poison damage be of any consequence compared to the massive chunks of flesh being ripped from your body by the weapon itself?
sorceressgod
05-03-2006, 15:49
well if they claim that MB or grief is serious BM, the more you should use it on them for their foolishness.
I know most zealers don't allow for poison damage in the duels, and as such Grief is consiedered bm. Me I don't use it duels, since most people are against it, but if someone uses it against me I don't care, it's all in good fun. I just look at it as being a bigger challenge.
i consider those 'zealer' rules silly becuase the poison damage from grief (level 15 venom) is so little after pvp/ resist that it won't effect the duel's outcome AT ALL when you are doing like 6k+ physical damage.
level 15 venom: 305-325 poison damage over 0.4 sec. assuming the resist is 0 which is very bad already in a 'GM' nightmare zeal vs zeal duel. after pvp penality 305-325 becomes 50.83-54 pvp damage in 0.4 sec. :rolleyes: Also note that the def. and 75% block rate would not make venom trigger in every zeal. so the actual venom damage is FAR from bm. If the person have 75% resist (coa, anya quest, anni, torch, resist from shield etc. etc) the damage will be 12.7-13.5 pvp damage in 0.4 sec. :rolleyes:
I had a couple of screen shot taken of someone who 2 vs 1 me FIRST and cry bm when they both lose (hammerdin and a nec)... because i use grief doom and enchant :rolleyes: ... here it goes:
http://img473.imageshack.us/img473/1529/screenshot0302tn.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/6563/screenshot0312jc.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/5181/screenshot0325kt.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/2923/screenshot0339ez.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/2017/screenshot0345wp.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
DennisBergkamp
08-03-2006, 19:31
Arbing, I agree with you: the poison damage should be negligable through resisting or "reduce poison length" compared to the massive physical damage of Grief. However, your calculations are not entirely correct: Poison does not suffer the PvP damage penalty, and also, in Hell poison length is increased by 100%. So 305-325 actually becomes 605-650 over .8 seconds. With max poison resist, this is only around 150 damage though.
Arbing, I agree with you: the poison damage should be negligable through resisting or "reduce poison length" compared to the massive physical damage of Grief. However, your calculations are not entirely correct: Poison does not suffer the PvP damage penalty, and also, in Hell poison length is increased by 100%. So 305-325 actually becomes 605-650 over .8 seconds. With max poison resist, this is only around 150 damage though.
oh thanks for telling me :grin: . guess we've all learn something new everyday. :cool:
Grief isn't bm for melee chars. It IS, however, bm with smite. Smite damage is balanced with melee damage if you use any weapon except grief (last wish is nice for this), but add in grief and a smiter will kill any melee char 100% of the time, and given a good setup most casters as well. Excepting, of course, that fun barb you mentioned. I think I'ma build one of those w/LW zerk+doom zerk+clegs+nos. kekeke.
kingdryland
10-03-2006, 14:40
On the contrary,if grief is bm on smite,then so is astreon's,redeemer and maxing holy shield as well. The only thing they do is to add damage to the base shield smite damage. Grief just adds the most. Smite is physical melee damage, the fact that you can't block or dodge it unless you are assassin or amazon doesn't mean it is not melee. And as physical melee,it dies from iron maiden.
Grief isn't bm for melee chars. It IS, however, bm with smite. Smite damage is balanced with melee damage if you use any weapon except grief (last wish is nice for this), but add in grief and a smiter will kill any melee char 100% of the time, and given a good setup most casters as well. Excepting, of course, that fun barb you mentioned. I think I'ma build one of those w/LW zerk+doom zerk+clegs+nos. kekeke.
LoL
a smiter can not kill other mele chars 100% of the time, grief or no Grief.
i eat most smiters for dinner and i know i can put my money where my mouth is.
take a look at McM barb vids or something and u will see real mele chars not majority of wanna be barbs that u see in pubs
kingdryland
10-03-2006, 16:42
Actually everyone agrees that mcm is a near perfect example of a bvc, you need loads of practice and good connection to have a similar effect. Who are the best smiters/vts on west scnl? That would be a nice matchup. As for pubs,together with the wannabe ww there are the wannabe smiters with their grief phase blades that can be easily outranged.
Actually everyone agrees that mcm is a near perfect example of a bvc, you need loads of practice and good connection to have a similar effect. Who are the best smiters/vts on west scnl? That would be a nice matchup. As for pubs,together with the wannabe ww there are the wannabe smiters with their grief phase blades that can be easily outranged.
true it does come down to practice cuz u could have godly gear but still get owned.
But most of the smiters i faced either just shift+smite or charge at u but the charge ones are the easiest i dont even have to worry much about DR all i have to do is WW away and i land hits.
This is on both a wwsin and BvC barb.
Pure smiters are not that big of a problem if you know how to WW. :] Even if they try to walk into you, just learn what to do and they're not too hard.
A barb WWing away is easy to beat. You just don't follow them -_-. Also, if the smiter is not a pub and goes zerk, you no longer have any range advantage. And that's just a barb. Sorcs can't do anything at all, zealots are pretty much screwed, and fury druids might as well just stay in town. The only class that has any chance against a well built smiter is a necro. I actually had quite a bit of fun today with prison+im. One time after they learned to stop attacking the prison, I decided not to even bother with spiriting him, I just left him there ^^. Someone else came along and killed, but wow was that funny. I don't think anything could frustrate smiters more than to be faced with no option but to kill themselves with their own damage.
A barb WWing away is easy to beat. You just don't follow them -_-. Also, if the smiter is not a pub and goes zerk, you no longer have any range advantage. And that's just a barb. Sorcs can't do anything at all, zealots are pretty much screwed, and fury druids might as well just stay in town. The only class that has any chance against a well built smiter is a necro. I actually had quite a bit of fun today with prison+im. One time after they learned to stop attacking the prison, I decided not to even bother with spiriting him, I just left him there ^^. Someone else came along and killed, but wow was that funny. I don't think anything could frustrate smiters more than to be faced with no option but to kill themselves with their own damage.
Wow. You clearly don't know what it is to face a good barb with a smiter. Are you West Non-Ladder? It seems as though you're dueling mediocre opponents.
A barb WWing away = UNTOUCHABLE unless you're able to get in their path [and only if you WW long] via tele smite. If you use a zerk, congrats, you're still not going to get as many hits in as the barb, especially since you = sitting shift smiting and barb = clipping you. Again, if you realize that shift smiting isn't exactly the best thing to do and try to walk the barb, then it becomes a cat and mouse game.
The only class that has a chance is a nec? Wow. Hammerdins, Fury Druids with 5 range, WW barbs, WWsins, etc.etc all come to mind immediately.
1.If a smiter loses to a WWsin, they don't deserve to play this game. Hammerdins and windies can do it, but sometimes better and sometimes worse. I actually meant more towards melee chars, but that was my mistake. Sorcs still stand as worthless vs smiters, however, given that it's a good smiter with stacked res.
2.Barbs WWing away ARE untouchable. However they won't do much dmg vs a pally who's standing still -_-. As far as the barb 'getting in more hits', maybe. Unless of course we're talking about a REAL LIFE SMITER who isn't a tard and uses EXILE and has like 875642983746 def. On top of that, a smiter can block a barb, but smite can't be blocked. Also, a smiter can life tap, while cast on strike does not work with WW, so given exile and/or dracs, with any luck the smiter will get healed. A lot. A WW barb with an ebotd war pike or ebotd giant thresher (cool points for scythe) is another story, but you don't see any of those. Ever. I lie, I saw a barb with an ebotd gthresher last season. That thing was cool, but it's the ONLY one I've ever seen anywhere.
3. Fury druid with a 5 range weapon.. hmm. Good idea since druids get high speed with poles. Never seen one though. As I said, ebotd gthreshers are just about nonexistent.
Go talk to Speedlander about WWsins vs Smiters.
About the equipment, uh yeah I was already factoring in the Exile + High defense. If you ever lifetap the barb, he can just play defensively himself, and you'll never be able to make good on the tap. A smiter that stands still = dead from clipping. A smiter that chases = dead from WWing away. The only real chance a smiter has is to walk the barb and trick him into WW in a certain direction, all so the smiter can put himself right there and smite away. 75% Block won't save you all the time, especially if a hit gets through and OW triggers.
Oh btw, a smiter with 987342987421471473274 defense will still be getting hit once a barb uses angelics.
Oh well. Bone prison+iron maiden is still hilarious ^^.
lol no offence dude but i think ur playing those wannabe barbs i was mentioning in the first post.
And u clearly cant have been fighting anything that can be labled half decent cuz a barb using Whirlwind away while u charge does = hard to hit and it acts like an auto hit for the barb as u stay and range where as the barb is out of range for u to WW.
You would be surprised how many palas get beast with that techique, and if u decide to stand a shift+smite a good barb will simply out range u using technques such as clipping WWs.
Even on wwsin it prolly can be even worst cuz lifetap wont last long as the fade reduces curse length and if the sin uses traps as well as a barb style Wirlwind technique u fall fast.
lol no offence dude but i think ur playing those wannabe barbs i was mentioning in the first post.
And u clearly cant have been fighting anything that can be labled half decent cuz a barb using Whirlwind away while u charge does = hard to hit and it acts like an auto hit for the barb as u stay and range where as the barb is out of range for u to WW.
You would be surprised how many palas get beast with that techique, and if u decide to stand a shift+smite a good barb will simply out range u using technques such as clipping WWs.
Even on wwsin it prolly can be even worst cuz lifetap wont last long as the fade reduces curse length and if the sin uses traps as well as a barb style Wirlwind technique u fall fast.
well just add a side note, i rarly lose 1/4 of of my life when facing a shift smiting pally. most of the time i take no damage at all. oh btw doom zerk = death to grief zerk using smiters. And for the person who think grief zerk is bm with smite... shift smiting = noob smiter because you don't beat ANY half decent ww barbs with them... there are too many bad barbs out there that gives him a bad name
lol no offence dude but i think ur playing those wannabe barbs i was mentioning in the first post.
And u clearly cant have been fighting anything that can be labled half decent cuz a barb using Whirlwind away while u charge does = hard to hit and it acts like an auto hit for the barb as u stay and range where as the barb is out of range for u to WW.
You would be surprised how many palas get beast with that techique, and if u decide to stand a shift+smite a good barb will simply out range u using technques such as clipping WWs.
Even on wwsin it prolly can be even worst cuz lifetap wont last long as the fade reduces curse length and if the sin uses traps as well as a barb style Wirlwind technique u fall fast.
well just add a side note, i rarly lose 1/4 of of my life when facing a shift smiting pally. most of the time i take no damage at all. oh btw doom zerk = death to grief zerk using smiters. And for the person who think grief zerk is bm with smite... shift smiting = noob smiter because you don't beat ANY half decent ww barbs with them... there are too many bad barbs out there that gives him a bad name
yeah I know about doom ;P. However, WWsins are NOT CAPABLE of killing a good smiter. Unlike barbs, they're limited to claws, which have about no range whatsoever. If my auradin can kill them about 95% of the time, moreso once I'm no longer using a last wish phase, then a smiter could do the same.
kingdryland
11-03-2006, 04:30
Sin claws have a range of 2,hence sins are outranged by zerk smiters. Frankly, sins are easy prey for good range 3 zealots too.
I beat them with a phase. WWsins simply don't qualify to compete in the melee game. Actually I've seen them beat a few zealots and very occasionally a good one will beat a smiter. However, in general the class is to disadvantaged at melee combat to win. A well used kicker can sort of be viable, but they're so dependent on poison damage that they can't beat any decent char with psn res.
How do you figure that a kicker would be more viable than a whirler against other melee? What's a single advantage that Dtalon has over WW in a melee duel?
I really have no idea. All I know is that I've been killed by a kicker a lot more often than any whirler. The kicker won about 1 out of 3, whirlers pretty much just die, and my friend tells me the same kicker who was able to kill me was also able to own an entire game just out of proper usage. I've never seen a WWsin do that. Maybe kill a couple people, but never own a whole game.
MegaFlame
11-03-2006, 07:37
Last wish+Dracs+Exile and the smite them, damn life tap activates so often and that's bm.
yeah I know about doom ;P. However, WWsins are NOT CAPABLE of killing a good smiter. Unlike barbs, they're limited to claws, which have about no range whatsoever. If my auradin can kill them about 95% of the time, moreso once I'm no longer using a last wish phase, then a smiter could do the same.
yeah of course they are i beat smiters with out any problems on WWsin/trapper and again ur underestimating the skills of a ww/trapper hybrid.
Again i can say u have not seen the good side to these chars at all cuz i own a BvC plus a ww/trapper and i can say both eat smiter without many problems anything that charges gets beat, anything that shift +smite get mb + trapped to death.
rutgerzak
11-03-2006, 15:51
How do you figure that a kicker would be more viable than a whirler against other melee? What's a single advantage that Dtalon has over WW in a melee duel?
ar, lots of it
LeegionOnEast
11-03-2006, 16:13
I've had my Bearzon been called BM. It has a simple setup:
Gullies with Um
Angelic Combo
Duriels with 15% IAS Jewel
Dungos
Dracs
Goreriders
SS with P Diamond
Beast Zerk
CTA and Sigon's on switch
I simply sit and dodge and block and swing forever untill Lifetap activates, and then I just sit and swing untill CB or OW kills them.
A WWbarb once accused me of using an untouchable hack when 2 Whirls completely didnt damage me. I just got lucky, :thumbsup:
Rofl a bearzon. I didn't think that would be viable ;P. Apparently max passives +bear bonuses works wonders ;P.
Speederländer
12-03-2006, 01:20
I really have no idea. All I know is that I've been killed by a kicker a lot more often than any whirler. The kicker won about 1 out of 3, whirlers pretty much just die, and my friend tells me the same kicker who was able to kill me was also able to own an entire game just out of proper usage. I've never seen a WWsin do that. Maybe kill a couple people, but never own a whole game.
A good ww assassin properly using stun from MB and traps to disrupt should rarely lose to a pure melee pally. Only smiters can be difficult, but then if properly played. If you haven't seen WW-sins do well vs. pallys but you've seen kickers do better, I have to question your dueling environment. I've played pretty much nothing but assassin variants since the end of 1.09 (ww, kick, trap, ww/kick, ww/trap, kick/trap, etc.) and there is no WAY a good kicker should be able to beat a good melee pally, not with things like grief and tap. Ever, except by pure luck. WW sins DO beat melee pallys, however, and with pretty good frequency.
Speederländer
12-03-2006, 01:25
ar, lots of it
Which is more than matched by near-auto-hit whirl away, something kicks can never have. Additionally, to get high kicking AR, you have to pump talon, which means you are stuck in kick animations of 5, 6 or even in some extreme cases 7 kicks. If your target moves out of range after kick one, you are stuck finishing all the kicks. You can't run, DF, tele, trap or MB. You're just stuck. WW is always superior to kicks in melee. I can get ww up to 20K AR in any event, more than enough to be comparable to kicking odds of hitting.
kingdryland
12-03-2006, 02:15
A good ww assassin properly using stun from MB and traps to disrupt should rarely lose to a pure melee pally. Only smiters can be difficult, but then if properly played. .
Well this type of sin is a hybrid, so automatically qualifies as non melee if you ask me. A vindicator/templar would be the equivalent in pallies, do you beat those too? But,still ,a zealot that has high light resists and tgods should be able to get the lightning damage from those traps (they can't be too strong,it is a hybrid), have a very good fhr, and his offensive skills intact. I find that smiting dual claw sins takes longer time to kill than zealing them actually. When smite loses its "always hit" status,zeal that's faster makes a more effective killer.
In any case, a good pure melee ww sin is easier to face than a good ww barb with shield.
Speederländer
12-03-2006, 03:21
Well this type of sin is a hybrid, so automatically qualifies as non melee if you ask me. A vindicator/templar would be the equivalent in pallies, do you beat those too? But,still ,a zealot that has high light resists and tgods should be able to get the lightning damage from those traps (they can't be too strong,it is a hybrid), have a very good fhr, and his offensive skills intact. I find that smiting dual claw sins takes longer time to kill than zealing them actually. When smite loses its "always hit" status,zeal that's faster makes a more effective killer.
In any case, a good pure melee ww sin is easier to face than a good ww barb with shield.
I'm not talking about a trap/ww hybrid, I'm talking about lvl 1 traps and MB for stun.
A vindicator/templar would be the equivalent in pallies, do you beat those too?
Yes.
I use a hybrid ww/trapper and as speederlander discriped a ww attack is much supperior to the kick and has the abilities to land more hits.
WW on an Assassin in only superior to kick in certain instances. Kicks are a much better choice against most casters, there's no chance of getting WW locked or making a very long, ugly WW.
Speederländer
12-03-2006, 22:22
WW on an Assassin in only superior to kick in certain instances. Kicks are a much better choice against most casters, there's no chance of getting WW locked or making a very long, ugly WW.
But we're talking about melee pallies, not casters. It goes without saying that kicks are superior vs casters in many situations, or at least that a solid argument can be made to that effect.
Oh, against melee then WW > Kicks. Moving attack > stationary kicks xN.
Don't know about that. WWsins die to zealots, but of the two good kickers I've seen, both do rather well vs zeal. Vs WW barbs you pretty much lose with any melee sin, so that's pointless, but kickers kick fast enough to take out casters before they can tele away.
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