Minimum > maximum??

[Aeonios]

I was looking through prefixes and suffixes when I had a thought. Phase blades do 31-35 damage base, and all weapons are capable of recieving the "Transcendence" suffix, which adds up to 20 minimum damage. Should a rare phase blade be given this suffix without any competing prefixes, at base it would have 51-35 damage... which really makes no sense. Has anyone ever had this happen to describe how the game would handle such a thing?

[monte cristo]

If minimum>maximum, maximum becomes minimum+1

[Aeonios]

makes sense. So if you get transcendence on a phase blade then you get extra maximum damage for free?

[pedu]

Ive always found this kinda stupid. In my opinion the minimum and maximum damage should be "selective". In other words the damage that is higher (after inserted jewels, or mods) should be maximum, no matter if it was minimum or maximum in the beginning. Its more logical to me. But thats just me...

edit:@aeonios: Yea, you get max damage for free.

[-Ferro-]

In fact, if you hit the max damage mark with the minimum, then increase more min damage, max is pumped in the same amount as the min for always to keep max=min+1. When doing this, you are increasing your average damage (the one that matters) by twice.

I am thinking on making a min damage barb or fury wolf since weeks ago, though dont have the founds (well, i have but not in currency, sojs, scs etc, i would have to trade and rip some chars, this annoysme a lot). anyway. My idea is making this build around grief pb. You have, lets say for a perfect grief, 430-435 damage on weapon. Now it is so easy to increase min damage by using min damage jewels. 4*30 min damage jools on armor, 30 min damage jool on helm and shield, 2*10 min damamage rings, and sc charms 2 min ar life (does this exists, if not shape or WC skilers). Leaving charms appart, you have 200 min damage on gear, which will tun into 200 average damage. I have to make calcualtions to see wether multiplied by the ed% you get from strnegh and skill bonus the final output damage is higher than the achieved by the usuall forti+ed/strengh jewels.

Btw, any1 knows if the ed%+min jewels are bugged on gear? If not, another option would be use ed%+min jools. Well, i got to make the numbers, if to get the time, I will post a draft here. Or may be YOU got the time and can do it now ;)

Fer

[-Ferro-]

In fact, if you hit the max damage mark with the minimum, then increase more min damage, max is pumped in the same amount as the min for always to keep max=min+1. When doing this, you are increasing your average damage (the one that matters) by twice.

I am thinking on making a min damage barb or fury wolf since weeks ago, though dont have the founds (well, i have but not in currency, sojs, scs etc, i would have to trade and rip some chars, this annoysme a lot). anyway. My idea is making this build around grief pb. You have, lets say for a perfect grief, 430-435 damage on weapon. Now it is so easy to increase min damage by using min damage jewels. 4*30 min damage jools on armor, 30 min damage jool on helm and shield, 2*10 min damamage rings, and sc charms 2 min ar life (does this exists, if not shape or WC skilers). Leaving charms appart, you have 200 min damage on gear, which will tun into 200 average damage. I have to make calcualtions to see wether multiplied by the ed% you get from strnegh and skill bonus the final output damage is higher than the achieved by the usuall forti+ed/strengh jewels.

Btw, any1 knows if the ed%+min jewels are bugged on gear? If not, another option would be use ed%+min jools. Well, i got to make the numbers, if to get the time, I will post a draft here. Or may be YOU got the time and can do it now ;)

Fer

[-Ferro-]

Edit: Sorry, I hate this error on boards goind on since some days ago...it really annoys me a lot

[PhatTrumpet]

Best you can possibly do on a jewel is +18 min dmg (perfect Crimson Jewel of Bliss). The +30 you're referring to is for max dmg only (perfect Vermillion Jewel of Carnage). I've found a couple Vermillions of Carnage (far from perfect) but I don't think I've ever seen a Crimson of Bliss before. Also, a magical Ring of Performace can get +14 min dmg.

The problem with the min dmg build is charms. You can only get +1 min dmg per inventory slot at best and you can't get +ar as a secondary mod. Compare that to sharps/fines which offer up to 20ar and 1.5 avg dmg per inventory slot and you see why nobody really goes for this strategy.

The numbers, irrespective of str and skill %ed (which would multiply the numbers below by the same amount for each situation, so it has no effect on the comparison):

'Grief' PB, 6 * 18min jewels, 1 * 14min ring (need a raven), and 37 * 1min charms:
31 + 400 + 6*18 + 14 + 37 = 590-591 base dmg = 590.5 avg

'Grief' PB, 6 * 30 max jewels, 37 * 3max charms:
35 + 400 + 6*30 + 37*3 = 431-726 base dmg = 578.5 avg

If we use 'Fortitude' instead of the 4-jeweled armor...

min dmg: 31 + 400 + 2*18 + 14 + 37 = 518-519 base dmg = 518.5 avg

max dmg: 35 + 400 + 2*30 + 37*3 = 431-606 base dmg = 518.5 avg


What does this tell us?

A few quick calcs will show that even with a huge skill %ed build like a Charger, 'Fortitude' actually yields more damage than a 4-jeweled armor. So since everybody will use 'Fort', you actually get the same avg dmg whether you go the min dmg or max dmg route. The big difference is that the max dmg gear is much more easily attainable than the min dmg gear.

[-Ferro-]

Thanks for numbers, but I would put my hand on fire about the min damage on jewels was 30, back in 1.09 some builds used such armors (conc palas, maul bears, etc...). Me myself have a couple of 38-40%ed 9 min damage jewels, could be i do the numbers for these. I am thinking in usung this build on wolf druid, using shape skillers with gives ed% instead damage charms.

I will check about jewels anyway.

Fer

[RTB]

Thanks for numbers, but I would put my hand on fire about the min damage on jewels was 30, back in 1.09 some builds used such armors (conc palas, maul bears, etc...). Me myself have a couple of 38-40%ed 9 min damage jewels, could be i do the numbers for these. I am thinking in usung this build on wolf druid, using shape skillers with gives ed% instead damage charms.
I'd put your hand in the fire then, because +18 min was the maximum in 1.09 as well. Also, those ed%/+min jewels don't give their maximum effect since a bug in 1.10, for those the ed% doesn't apply to the min dmg.

PhatTrumpet: +2 min per inventory slot is possible (Sanguinary Grand/Small charms).

[PhatTrumpet]

Arreat Summit lists Singuinary as being +2 min dmg for Grand and Large Charms only, which still isn't more than +1 min dmg per inventory slot (one little square). Is it listed incorrectly?

[RTB]

While you can't assume the AS to be right about affixes (use D2data.net (http://www.d2data.net) for that), it's right... The affixes are there, but cannot spawn.

In 1.07 SP though, you can get +3 min Small Charms, which is a much better deal. (Nothing compared to the +40 max Grand charms tho)

[-Ferro-]

Thanks to clarifie it all RTB, I wont argue with you at all :PP. So, lets use forti armor BUT 18min jewels on helm and shield and 37*2min scs:

grief pb+2*18 min jewels+37*2min scs+14min ring=
31+400+18+18+2*37+14=555 average damage

for max damage charms/jewels:
griefpb+2*30 max jewels+37*3max scs
431 min - (35+400+60+111) max =431-606 =518.5 average damage.

Well, average damage is a bit higher

[PhatTrumpet]

He just confirmed that such a small charm can't spawn...

[-Ferro-]

Yea it took so long for me to finish my post so he posted while I was typing. Forget about this then.

Thanks guys

[Jerkazoid]

the min > max "feature" onyl really shines in lower level anyway.

past a certain level the amount of Max u can get relative to Min outweighs the possibility of generating a higher avg dmg with Min.

in short.. if ur option for min dmg mods are not < then or = 1/2 of max... just stick with max.
and usualy on higher levels the max mods add 3 times more then min ever could

[Quietus]

Best you can possibly do on a jewel is +18 min dmg (perfect Crimson Jewel of Bliss). The +30 you're referring to is for max dmg only (perfect Vermillion Jewel of Carnage). I've found a couple Vermillions of Carnage (far from perfect) but I don't think I've ever seen a Crimson of Bliss before. Also, a magical Ring of Performace can get +14 min dmg.


*** Snipped for length ****

Not sure how much this one actually matters, but I have a Crimson of Bliss on useast NL, sitting on my zon. I figured that it would make an awesome crafting jool. :rolleyes:

And yes, it does have +18 minimum

[DennisBergkamp]

...lets say for a perfect grief, 430-435 damage on weapon...

Maybe I'm just nitpicking here, but that's not a perfect damage grief. Perfect dmg grief would be in a 15%ed sup phase, which whould yield around 436-440 damage instead :grin:

[Zangeif]

Well the max from 32020s won't apply with a min build which is the main problem. ED/min was popular for fury druids before fort came out because even though the min is bugged, it is multiplied by the big ed from skills and other jewels.

I have only seen one min only build in hld, and it was a bowazon of the person who I consider the top player on East. Bow was a rare legit that was something like 230-240 20ias. His charms were all 2min/34-35life LCs. Finding the charms would take forever for anyone besides this guy. He has played since 1.0 and has kept all his mules since day 1.