Serious DII suggestions

[SirGalahad]

:soapbox:

First of all I would like to say that Blizzard has done an excellent job crafting this game. The equipment, the levels, the pace of the game and the co-operation all show a lot of work and thought. I think we should all agree on that. So this will not be another “Gimme more! Gimme more!!” post although I may give a few suggestions for future versions. Mostly I want to help fix some of the problems that DII currently has.
Sometimes, Blizzard gets carried away with “Narfing” to reduce character power and improve game balance. In my opinion this “Narfing” method has been over used and should be replaced with a system of fixing. For instance A few yeas ago Concentration was disassociated from Hammers completely. There was no reduction, simply a shut off. (I stopped playing at that time.) Luckily Blizzard saw the error in that and changed it in to a reduction instead of a removal. At the same time I had also built a Jab attack Amazon with a huge pike, not the best character but good. Then the Jab attack got linked with weapon speed.
We still have problems like that now. Cases in point the, the Druid and Assassin classes are generally failures (with the exception of the Wind Druid build and Trapper for PvP.) What I mean is that no one plays them. People will respond to this by saying that they have a “Great/Awesome” Druid or Trapper but if you look in to the general landscape of players in a high level Baal game you will see mostly, Sorceresses, Barbarians, Spear Amazons and Paladins. There will be your occasional Wind Druid and Trapper but people simply don’t play those builds much. Why? Because they are simply sub standard. The Druid caster, for instance, does not compare with the Sorceress. He was supposed to be the tougher version of the Caster, being able to tank and cast, but when all plays out his lower power makes the sorceress the choice for most players. The Druid Summoner is a total disaster. He was supposed to be a new, perhaps, improved version of the Necromancer but I have never seen a high level Druid Summoner in a game. Now and then I see a Druid fighter but they are few and far between. Mostly the Bears are to slow and concentrated on to few targets. The Werewolves lack power and their dependence on charging is to large a handicap when it comes to the first few critical moments of combat.
Caster Assassins can be pretty good but they also do not compare with the Sorceress. The problem is that the sorceresses have adjusted to the immunities and synergies while the Trappers have not. My Meteor Orb sorceress can do good fire and cold damage and even electricity damage with static. Theoretically caster Assassins should be able to mange with Corpse explosion and Mind Blast but I have tested it and it does not really play as well. I read a bit about the Kick Assassin in some guides but I have never seen a melee assassin in a hell Baal game.

So to summarize, each of these builds should be brought up to the level of the other older builds. Caster Assassins and Druids should be at least as good as the sorceress and melee Assassins and Druids should be at least as good as barbarians and paladins.

I think that part of the problem is an elite cadre of testers and players has recommended to much “narfing”. They play an elite, tweaked version of the character and then recommend that it’s effectiveness be reduced. The result is that normal players end up using their version of these characters as mules. I was just about to build a melee druid and noticed that some of the latest patches reduced the health and power. Weren’t those builds already low on the players list of choices anyway? Well, I’m not building one now.

Again, please don’t come to me and tell me that I’m wrong. Go out and play your summoner Druid, or Melee Assassin until the number of these builds equals the number of Sorceresses, Barbs and Paladins out there. As that old adage goes, numbers don’t lie.


Further;

Another build that has suffered greatly is the Bowazon (Perhaps rightly so). They can still rock with a high level bow but they pale in comparison with the Sorceress character. Essentially they have become low powered sorceresses.
The Healer Paladin cannot really make a difference and his attack on the undead is still lacking power.

Specifics recommendations:

Caster Assassin: Should have the fire traps fire Fireballs instead. I never considered splitting the skills on a fire attack backup because of the limited range of the Fire Traps.

Fighter assassin: Up the power of her attacks to match the Paladin. For the future it would be good to spread out her damage and to make her attacks programmable and automated, that is, you could pre-select which series of skills she could use when left clicking.

Caster Druid: Up the cold and fire damage to match the sorceress. Add random knock back to, Hurricane and tornado, random stun and knock back on Fissure. Make the knock back on Molten boulder more absolute. (Also it would be good if it were made to bounce off the sides of walls.)

Melee Druid: Up their damage to the level of Paladins or Barbarians and make the charged up state last much longer to negate the penalty that they take for a short break in combat or trip to town.

Amazon: Life and mana leeching ability should redeem the Amazon as a low powered Sorceress but that has not played out in game enjoyment or character choice. More low level charges on bows, like the Blood Ravens and more low level Chance to Cast, like on the Wichwild, should redeem player loyalty to that class.

Caster Paladins:
- Healer Paladin: Increase the Holy bolt damage and cast rate, if someone is going to do damage to only one type of monster they should be allowed to do at least the same level of damage as a high level Sorceress, Hammerdin or Barbarian. It’s only damage to undead. Especially, increase the damage on the Holy Bolts released from Fist of Heavens, it should be ½ to 1/3 at a minimum of what normal Holy Bolts do
- Lightning: The damage for Fist of Heavens is pretty low for only hitting one target for one type of damage with a casting delay but I have seen this raised to ridicules levels(46?), levels high enough to wipe a character with lightning absorb off the face of the earth. Still, all game play should not be judged by the ridicules so perhaps that damage could be raised a bit.

[Finraug]

Hmm, not bad suggestions I guess. I agree weapon speed is a bit of a drag, especially with me playing a 2 handed axe ww barb, but it isn't horrible.

As for your druid and assassin issues. These are the half and half classes. Druid is a weaker mage with tanking ability. I don't really know much about assassins.

However, part of the problem now days has become everyone wants to design a perfect character. Design and play with a character that you enjoy and that fits you. Before I went on hiatus and lost my account, I built underpowered builds all the time because the way they played fit how I liked to play. Also, I tend to shoot for unique equipment only, I ussually don't get into runewording too much unless I have some good runes and just can't find me a unique to use in that place.

[SirGalahad]

Oops forgot the summon Druid.

The summon druid was supposed to be more power less minoans = less lag Summoner. I don't know what went wronge.

Recommendations:

- I think it's O.K. to hold the Bear at its currnent damage or even to lower it but it's survivability should be raised with maybe a 10 percent change for Critical strike and/or a 5 percent chance to do crushing blow. That would rock.
The wolves are sick. Minoans have a problem with life regenerate and leech. Make the wolves gain life from thier attacks and have them eat corpses the instant they are made (Then stop eating until they need a power up.).(I hate it when they just mill arround for a minute after a kill) Then let them stay powerd up for a longer time before they need to power up agian.

That should make the build viable.

[Fluffballer]

You're looking at every class only as a damage figure. It's far more complicated than that. Assassins and druids in particular, the two classes you depise most, have a gargantuan range of support skills. A wind druid can't match a meteors damage, but he is immune to elemental attacks, has obscene amounts of life, has a recastable tank that does good damage, a sort of holy freeze aura... etc. Assassins are one of only two classes to have teleport, they have a HUGE range of support skills in their shadow tree, the absolute best minion in the game yada yada yada.

Baal runs are a terrible indication of how well balanced a character is. In Baal runs, the only thing that matters is how stupidly high you can get your hammer damage up to. When you're actually playing, things like the druid and assassin support skills come into affect. Versatility > big damage.

In summary, I completely and totally disagree with every single thing you wrote. :grin:

[Necrochild313]

Teleport, 1 second cast delay

*balance of game shifts*

[SirGalahad]

You're looking at every class only as a damage figure.
In summary, I completely and totally disagree with every single thing you wrote. :grin:

Really?!? Even the stuff about blizz doing a good job and the word "is" in the first paragraph?!! Well, I guess it depends on what your definition of "is" is.

Still, thank you for reading, you are the only other person to read this post so I guess I should consider you my second biggest fan!

Seriously though I know some people play those other characters but the main choices are as stated for the entire hell level.

P.S. I do have a healing paladin(needs a bigger or faster punch on undead damage) and a BO barb.

[SirGalahad]

Teleport, 1 second cast delay

*balance of game shifts*

I gata figure out how to make an avatar.

[Evrae Altana]

Go to the User CP, then go to Edit Avatar. Now select an image you want to use as your avatar and put in the URL in the space provided.

[SirGalahad]

Go to the User CP, then go to Edit Avatar. Now select an image you want to use as your avatar and put in the URL in the space provided.


Hey thanks, buut how do you get the image to move?

[anonymite]

I still haven't built an Assasin or Druid of any kind, despite the game continually tempting with me Assasin-specific items- I probably have 10-12 Unique Claws in my SP stash. Still, that might be a failure on my part than the Games part. To me they seems like they're a little all over the map and I don't know how to make a really good build with them.

I think in earlier versions of the game both classes worked better. When enemies had less HP and resists, a jack-of-all-trades character could kill effectively in multiple ways.

But the Synergies clearly helped some characters more than others. Blizz Sorcs, Lightning Sorcs, Hammers, Bone Necros, Wind Druids, even Lightning Zons to a certain extent all benefit because they put 60-80 points into a single skill and its synergies. And those are the dominant builds you see on Bnet. Only the Meteorb, Strafer, Melee Barb and Smiter really tap multiple skills and Meteorb shouldn't even count since it's just a specialty build with two specialties instead of one. Since the point of the game inevitably becomes to kill fast and acquire items, specialty build is always going to trump an all around character like the druid in terms of popularity.

[Evrae Altana]

Hey thanks, buut how do you get the image to move?Simple. You select any image that's moving to begin with. :wink3:

[SirGalahad]

Simple. You select any image that's moving to begin with. :wink3:

:shocked: Will try to find one of those

[SirGalahad]

I still haven't built an Assasin or Druid of any kind, despite the game continually tempting with me Assasin-specific items- I probably have 10-12 Unique Claws in my SP stash. Still, that might be a failure on my part than the Games part. To me they seems like they're a little all over the map and I don't know how to make a really good build with them.
.

Case in point, if I find a mid level unique sword I will often just find a low level game and drop it off. But dude, I just sell Melee Assasin weapons Like I said, I have never seen a fighter Assasin even near hell level. Trap weapons are good for a PvP trap assasin.

[Necrochild313]

Case in point, if I find a mid level unique sword I will often just find a low level game and drop it off. But dude, I just sell Melee Assasin weapons Like I said, I have never seen a fighter Assasin even near hell level. Trap weapons are good for a PvP trap assasin.

I've soloed the Ubers with a "fighter" assassin :wink3:

A few times

[SirGalahad]

I've soloed the Ubers with a "fighter" assassin :wink3:

A few times


Yes yes, anything is possible if you put godly equipment on it but that's not the point.

That brings up another thing. Some guides that I see recommend certian types of amor and weapons but leave it to the player to chose from a range of things that might work, others say that "you should have" and then go on to stipulate HOTO and enigma or CoH. I look right at that and say, "Well that build won't be workable with the equimpent that I can put on it." :laughing:

[SirGalahad]

:laughing:

I don't believe it dudes! I just made a game specifically because I wanted to solo andy with my summon druid (I was just bored so I thought I would make one). So I made the name "Need free HoTo". No one ever goes in those games. And, understand I never ask for anything except maybe a good trade because it's just not me. Well, somone comes in the game and gives me a HoTo and a druid torch!! I can understand the torch a little because I have one and had no use for it but the HoTo will be cool. Guess I will keep playing :jig:

[Evrae Altana]

Congratulations. You managed to find one kind soul in an entire sea of idiots.

[Fluffballer]

You don't need very good equipment to do the Ubers (well at least not expensive).


Builds good at MFing are what you seem to think are overpowered. The truth is if you're actually just playing, all classes are pretty much equal. Some do some things better than others, but it all evens out. Even hammerdins - which I agree are out of balance - have to be in the thick of the battle to be effect, which is dangerous. You might think more about playing a hardcore trapper than a hardcore hammerdin.

My first two characters of this ladder season were a wind druid and a summom druid. I'm playing an untwinked melee assassin now. Like I said, the difference is versatility. It's just not all about Enigmas and godly damage.

[SirGalahad]

You don't need very good equipment to do the Ubers (well at least not expensive).

Builds good at MFing are what you seem to think are overpowered. The truth is if you're actually just playing, all classes are pretty much equal. Some do some things better than others, but it all evens out. Even hammerdins - which I agree are out of balance - have to be in the thick of the battle to be effect, which is dangerous. You might think more about playing a hardcore trapper than a hardcore hammerdin.

My first two characters of this ladder season were a wind druid and a summom druid. I'm playing an untwinked melee assassin now. Like I said, the difference is versatility. It's just not all about Enigmas and godly damage.

Yea I know. I didn't say overpowered though. I do hear that the MFing sorcs are a little out of balance with the teleport ability, so I built one. like I said I'm building a Summon Druid but until I got the Hoto I was very doubtful about his surviveablity in hell(still am a bit).
The question is, however, about money, for Bizzard and future versions of the game. Where will this game end up if players don't like and play the new charaters at least as much as the old ones? If NecroChild likes the Melee assasin build and likes to play it, that's good. But if he is the only one of two, that's bad. If I were to take a survey I would guess that less than %10 of the time Assasins and Druids are played (I think everyon has at least one) and those are the trapper builds and Wind builds. Less than %2 of the time do I see guys like us playing Hell level, Melee assasins or druids or summon druids. The question is how, how can we make these characters more successfull and enjoyable for the majority of other palyers. What do you think could be changed in the melee assasin to make her character more viable in hell? For the average player, that is the question.

[Necrochild313]

Yes yes, anything is possible if you put godly equipment on it but that's not the point.

Actually, the most expensive item on her was Dracs.

[Friiser]

:shocked: Will try to find one of those

what extension does the file need to be? I took mine off of Arreat Summit monster area (and it moves there), but I can't get it to move as my avatar :confused1:

[Omikron8]

Removal of teleport entirely on all classes and all items

*Watches hordes of whining noobs leave*

*Happy that dueling might be fun again*

Attempting to use blessed hammer causes instant realm down every time

[SirGalahad]

Actually, the most expensive item on her was Dracs.

Wow I'm impressed.....but back to the original question. Why don't as many people play the Melee Assassin as, say, the Barbarian or Paladin? What changes should be made to make it more playable for the rest of us?:scratch:

[SirGalahad]

Removal of teleport entirely on all classes and all items

*Watches hordes of whining noobs leave*

*Happy that dueling might be fun again*

Attempting to use blessed hammer causes instant realm down every time


Tele is kind of like the Transporter on Star Trek. They manged to control the ability to pop up anywhere to save the plot and story lines. I think that tele could be managed more carefully but it should still exist for the billion of players who depend on it.

I love my Hammerdin :heart:

[ThePanzyLord]

Removal of teleport entirely on all classes and all items

*Watches hordes of whining noobs leave*

*Happy that dueling might be fun again*

Attempting to use blessed hammer causes instant realm down every time

Why would noobs leave because teleport is gone?

And why isn't dueling fun? (Im assumeing its because you can't hit anything that has teleport.)

[Evrae Altana]

Why would noobs leave because teleport is gone? Some people seem to think that Enigma and teleport is a must have in order to do anything. I know, I see them all over the place. Once, I asked a hammerdin in a Baal game to turn on Concentration. His response? "sry i dun hav nigma yet my freind gonna giv me later then i can have conc aura".

[Omikron8]

Why would noobs leave because teleport is gone?

And why isn't dueling fun? (Im assumeing its because you can't hit anything that has teleport.)

Oh hell i don't know, maybe because every damn build RECOMMENDS THE SAME DAMN ARMOR?

there is nothing more boring in d2 than lack of equipment variety, because if you stray from the mainstream path you will be destroyed by any competent dueler (not considering pub morons)

and i still remember the SORC in a pub game that said she couldn't teleport because she didn't have enigma yet

[Quietus]

Oh hell i don't know, maybe because every damn build RECOMMENDS THE SAME DAMN ARMOR?

there is nothing more boring in d2 than lack of equipment variety, because if you stray from the mainstream path you will be destroyed by any competent dueler (not considering pub morons)

and i still remember the SORC in a pub game that said she couldn't teleport because she didn't have enigma yet


The guides tend to recommend the same armor over and over again, for one main reason - IT WORKS.

That said, there's no reason that you can't... oh, say, think for yourself, and decide what armor would work well. For example! Everyone runs around screaming for ecara for their zealers. I have an armor that has higher defense than a perfect ecara, mods that are equal to it, at 127 less str requirements - and not ONCE have I seen it mentioned as a recommended armor.

Put thought into things, and look at guides as being just that. GUIDES. They aren't the be-all-and-end-all of their subject. They are best used as a reference to draw on the experiences other people have had, and from there, draw your own conclusions as to what will and will not work. Personally, I'd prefer something like Duress on a melee assassin over most other armors, simply because of the price on those other armors.

As to the primary intent of this thread - you see the same builds over and over again in baal runs because most kiddies think damage is king. They build their chars for one single purpose, typically. Dueling, mfing, or simply baaling till their eyes fall out. I know, I've done it before - I have a level 90 sin I only bring out for duels. Oh, right, a ww sin. But she's a hybrid, uses traps and kicks, too. Whoo! Then again, I consider myself to be a step above the average person on b.net, as I put thought into what I'm doing. I had my hammderin, had the idea to hybrid it with smite, thus my vanquisher was born. And yes, both of these chars use enigma- my vanq uses both enigma and coh depending on what he's doing.

But then, I also have a slew of other characters for when I feel like just chugging around and killing things senselessly. My werewolf for example. Care to tell me that if you bring the average pub ww barb into a game with my werewolf, that he could kill as quickly as GC-BeastWithin could? Even with my strange (read : Awesome) armor, he does 8k max damage, without godly damage charms. Stack up the damage charms and slap my forti on him and I wouldn't be surprised to see 13k+ damage. But pubs wouldn't use a character like that, because he'd get owned in pvp.

The sad fact is, the general measuring stick of how good a character is is how well they perform in pvp, or how well they can mf. And as far as mf goes, pubs WILL NOT mf without teleport, 99% of the time. That's why you see the same characters over and over again... they are cookie cutters, capable of brainlessly killing in pvp. Lay traps, or ww, or shoot spells. Hit, kill, gg, nr. It's the tiny group of people like myself, and many others on this forum, that will play weird, off-the-wall builds, like the phoenix striker I've been having the urge to build, or my bow druid. Underpowered? Very. Do I care? No, because I don't care how much they 'pwn'. I just want to have fun.

[Fluffballer]

What the heck is "ecara"?

Galahad-- all you need to kill the ubers are crushing blow and life tap. Goblin toe light plated boots, Orphan's Call helm etc. These things are worth perfect gems.

[Evrae Altana]

What the heck is "ecara"?Ethereal Steel Carapace.

[SirGalahad]

What the heck is "ecara"?

Galahad-- all you need to kill the ubers are crushing blow and life tap. Goblin toe light plated boots, Orphan's Call helm etc. These things are worth perfect gems.

:undecided: I've already killed the ubers......

[SirGalahad]

The guides tend to recommend the same armor over and over again, for one main reason - IT WORKS.

As to the primary intent of this thread - you see the same builds over and over again in baal runs because most kiddies think damage is king. They build their chars for one single purpose, typically. Dueling, mfing, or simply baaling till their eyes fall out. I know, I've done it before - I have a level 90 sin I only bring out for duels. Oh, right, a ww sin. But she's a hybrid, uses traps and kicks, too. Whoo! Then again, I consider myself to be a step above the average person on b.net, as I put thought into what I'm doing. I had my hammderin, had the idea to hybrid it with smite, thus my vanquisher was born. And yes, both of these chars use enigma- my vanq uses both enigma and coh depending on what he's doing.


The sad fact is, the general measuring stick of how good a character is is how well they perform in pvp, or how well they can mf. And as far as mf goes, pubs WILL NOT mf without teleport, 99% of the time. That's why you see the same characters over and over again... they are cookie cutters, capable of brainlessly killing in pvp. Lay traps, or ww, or shoot spells. Hit, kill, gg, nr. It's the tiny group of people like myself, and many others on this forum, that will play weird, off-the-wall builds, like the phoenix striker I've been having the urge to build, or my bow druid. Underpowered? Very. Do I care? No, because I don't care how much they 'pwn'. I just want to have fun.


I have yet to build a PvP character. Once I built a PvPK Avatar but FoH got narfed to much. Other than that I have; A Druid that works off fully synergized Molten Bowlder, A fire bow Amazon, A summon Druid, A druid whose main attack is Artic blast, a trap assasin and a Zealot based on the fire aura. The Assasin can do so so in hell but is out of luck if anything lightning immune comes arround. The zon can survive in big parties. The fire zealot is a good example, he was fun until Hell, at which time they used him as a hockey puk.
Just so that we don't talke past each other, my measure for a build is the ability to Survive and have fun on Hell level. The builds that I mentioned in the original post should, properly played, be funner in hell. Leave the Uber bosses and the Ubers to the real dedicated people. Now you and I may be able to have fun with these odd builds but most people don't, which is why they get, generally, a lower amount of play.
My concern is that a certian number of new players are playing, say, a Druid summoner or a fire elemntal druid or a melee assasin and getting hammerd and frustated in hell and just dropping the game, and telling thier friends. If I were on the Buisness/Blizzard side of things I would have to say that part of my product is broken. If enough people are not enjoying these builds as much, and obviously they're not, then we should do something to fix that. And some of the fixes would be so easy. A little more power here or there and voila a much more playable melee assassin or druid. Others would be a bit more dificult. The Molten bowlder, for instance, was supposed to get the druid through tight spaces like the maggot liar. It was supposed to make him the king of tunnels, the tunnel rat. Moulten Bowlder splats on the wall like a rotten egge.:sad2: Still, it could be fixed.

[aman]

I agree with Omikron , i duel more on SP now over at the SPF and there is only one person that has enigma but every time we duel in tourneys/fun we often ban tele making it alot more fun.

Enigma is too over powered and teleport needs to be removed from all classes apart from sorcs.

[Quietus]

I agree with Omikron , i duel more on SP now over at the SPF and there is only one person that has enigma but every time we duel in tourneys/fun we often ban tele making it alot more fun.

Enigma is too over powered and teleport needs to be removed from all classes apart from sorcs.


Then people will complain about sorcs having teleport, and no one else having it.

The sad fact of the matter is - game companies will never be able to make everyone happy. There is no real way to build a game that is so completely balanced that every skill is equally effective, without making it completely boring. Things like holy fire zealots are excellent, in non-fire-immune places.

As far as people new to the game go... well, they won't be playing holy fire zealots, usually. That requires a certain amount of sitting down and deciding what works best, and it's a very rare noob that will do this. Generally, they will put points into any skill that they like, ending up with many points into something like warmth, or telekinesis, or nova. Fun? Eh, maybe in the early game, when nova is effective. But part of being a noob is not knowing what works, until you've played a bit - and by the time you get above being a noob, you'll have seen builds that 'pwn' - and usually, emulate them. Which will mean ending up with a character that can manage to hold it's own, until you hit hell and have no equipment... it's just a series of steps upward, really, until most people hit a plateau, where they build the cookie cutters you see, with the same gear, so every other hammerdin is identical.

[SirGalahad]

A last word on this,

Some people are taking a defesive stance when I criticize some of the builds in D2 but it really insn't necesary. I know that one of the funnest thing about the game is making new builds and trying out others. But when standard characters and builds like the Melee Assasin and the Fire Druid aren't vaible enough for more people to play then changes need to be made. That only applies to the major standard builds. There is plenty of room to work with builds like the cold druid.

[Frostraven]

Teleport, 1 second cast delay

*balance of game shifts*

*Shrug*

*150000 players move on to other games*

[Frostraven]

A last word on this,

Some people are taking a defesive stance when I criticize some of the builds in D2 but it really insn't necesary. I know that one of the funnest thing about the game is making new builds and trying out others. But when standard characters and builds like the Melee Assasin and the Fire Druid aren't vaible enough for more people to play then changes need to be made. That only applies to the major standard builds. There is plenty of room to work with builds like the cold druid.

I wanted to make a druid to supplement the killing power of my friends party...

Problem is-- All summoner druids are utterly useless -- compared to the 99 minion necromancer summoner...

It's not fun to build a build that dies, and/or that has no chance of killing bosses-- especially in HARDCORE...

SO I won't make a druid, because he will get killed, or cannot kill.
A 99 minion necro is worth a lot more. Or I can make a barbarian that can grant my friends a lot more life, an extra skill level, 200% extra defense and a tank.

My friend wanted to build a elemental druid-- but when he learned about my 50K meteor sorceress, who has a usable orb backup, he abandoned the idea-- and went for a wind druid who was ditched three days later because he couldn't help me in hell.
Meteorb sorceress is better at both cold and fire.

...

If all classes' level 30 skills were made viable, and all level 24 and 18 skills usefull -- then just perhaps people would play druid.
Especially in single-player and LAN games.

It would be great if a wind druid in single player would be able to kill a physical and cold immune spike fiend.
Perhaps capping immunity at 97.5%, making killing critters next to impossible-- but still do-able..?

Untill then, I'll bang my head against the calculator because I'll never see my druid summoner kill Hell Bishbosh without a might merc, a maxed spirit of wolverine, a fanaticsm paladin *and* a level 46 bo hoping to find a amplify damge charged wand...

[Orphan]

what extension does the file need to be? I took mine off of Arreat Summit monster area (and it moves there), but I can't get it to move as my avatar :confused1:

It should probably be a .gif extension.

[SirGalahad]

I wanted to make a druid to supplement the killing power of my friends party...

Problem is-- All summoner druids are utterly useless -- compared to the 99 minion necromancer summoner...

Untill then, I'll bang my head against the calculator because I'll never see my druid summoner kill Hell Bishbosh without a might merc, a maxed spirit of wolverine, a fanaticsm paladin *and* a level 46 bo hoping to find a amplify damge charged wand... :banghead:

Exactly my point. A summon Druid should be another version of the Summone Necro, at least. Also the melee Assasin should be at least as good as a Zealot or Barb.

Update: On this thread. I have just finished building a Hunter. That is a Summon Druid who uses a bow with the damage spirit. He has, among other things, a Druid Torch, the Eagle Horn bow (ITD) and a helm that gives plus 4 to the Spirit of Woverine..

-->>> He sucks!! Suffers from the same low resist problems as the BowAzon and still can't kill anything.


I think that the problem may be that they have over "Versatileized" the Druid. (Bad Idea anyway, Characters should have 2 or three variations and if you want a different function, chose another character.) Hence, if they make the summon tree any more powerful then the Druid character becomes "Over Powered". Yea right.

[Kijya]

Each charecter is suppose to have his strenghs and weaknesess. Think of it as a rock paper sissors balance (WoW was suppose to have that iirc) ...

Assassins should not be as good in melee as barbs, Barbs are meant to be the best in that trait. Summoner druids aren't supposed to be as good as Necromancers, necros are meant to be the best in that trait.

Likewise druids and assassins have their strengths that the other two charecters can't compete in ... try finding a barb caster beating a trapper in non melee fighting, or a necromancer meleeing like a enraged wolf ...

That folks is "balance" ...


but palas are just generally owerpowered ...


Sorry just my thoughts on the matter :rolleyes:

[Valvolux]

All summoner druids are utterly useless

Complete rubbish, I've made several Summoner druids that can solo anywhere in the game and kill bloody fast, pack of 5 level 44 spirit wolves with fan+might. gg thanks.

[SirGalahad]

Each charecter is suppose to have his strenghs and weaknesess. Think of it as a rock paper sissors balance (WoW was suppose to have that iirc) ...

Assassins should not be as good in melee as barbs, Barbs are meant to be the best in that trait. Summoner druids aren't supposed to be as good as Necromancers, necros are meant to be the best in that trait.

Likewise druids and assassins have their strengths that the other two charecters can't compete in ... try finding a barb caster beating a trapper in non melee fighting, or a necromancer meleeing like a enraged wolf ...

That folks is "balance" ...

Sorry just my thoughts on the matter :rolleyes:

You raise some good points. For one, you are right that the melee Assasin proably should not be as good as the Barbarian. but the question then is, why have these other characters at all? We already have a summoner, a Caster and a fighter so why have a melee Druid, a Caster druid or a Summon druid at all? Just so all three permutations can suck?? No. Paladins are good melee characters as well and it does not hurt game balance at all.
The thing is that it does not hurt game balance to have 2 or three of the same type of character doing the same kind of damage. Consider this, you have a Sorceress and a Druid in the same party doing fire elemental damage. The Fire damage druid finds that his damage sucks so comes back in to the game playing a Fire damage Sorceress. The game balance has not changed from what it used to be before the Druid class existed. Just one type of character is not being played, the Druid. Now lets say that instead of leaving and getting a fire damage sorc our player instead gets a new version 13.1 fire damage Druid with damage to match the Sorcerss. Change in game balance = 0.
The real challenge is not to lower damage but to change the way it's delivered in creative ways. For example the fire soceress can deliver greater damage at a distance but the fire damage druid can deliver even more damge but at a shorter range. Changes like this could make it more advantagous play one character or the other in certian instances without narfing the damage of one or the other.

[Lord Nyax]

Exactly. As you stated above, the key is balance. If you want to do a ton of damage, you should have to get close. If you don't care about how quickly something dies, just as long as you never get hurt (because of the range between you and your target) then go for it.

The real probelm comes in Hell Difficulty, and this is where my main argument is with you. You said yourself that you base all your observations off of how well a class does in Hell Difficulty. If you put yourself in the proverbial "shoes" of Blizzard, you can understand that they want Hell Difficulty to be completed only by those who want to put the effort into it. If you don't want to kill NM Mephisto for 3k hours, then Blizzard has decided that you aren't allowed to complete Hell difficulty.

So, basically, there are some classes that can easily complete Hell Difficulty without any real effort, they just need some very specific equip (aka. Hammerdin with Enigma) and there are some that have a harder time, they just don't need the same "Hard-to-Find" equip (aka. Summoner Druid with Might Merc, yes it'd take a while, but mana is cheap and the bear is a beast).

If you chose to make a character that has a very very strong attack, but has a glaring weakness (aka. Pure Fire Sorceress) then you can expect to have difficulties. That's where your Melee Assassin has it's greatest strength (also, my 2nd favorite class, the Paladin Avenger). I challenge you to find a Physical & Cold & Fire & Lightning & Poison immune. That'd be some intense crap, but that's what it would take to be immune to the Melee assassin (and ignore the Poison and you have the Avenger too).

That's why the more common builds are used more often. People are impatient. The Melee Assassin and the Avenger can kill most anything, it can just take a long time and be annoying. Though the Fire Sorc cannot kill everything, with the skill Teleport, it's easy enough to just skip the ones you can't kill. That's not the original point of the game (completing all the quests, i.e. Fire Immune Fallen in the Den of Evil) but it can work.

P.S: Also, could you use paragraphs? It's hard to read your posts some of the time.

[Phesto]

1. people like variety
2. more choices is a good thing
3. the "underpowered" characters you mentioned can do many things standard characters can't, and as such are often more fun, interesting, useful (such as in a group), and POWERFUL
4. the "underpowered" characters you mentioned are used by countless players who routinely run the most difficult areas of the game; these people don't have the problems you do
5. many "underpowered" skills deal damage in such a way that given the same potential for damage as their simpler counterparts, they could easily become too powerful

Blizzard didn't do an excellent job, they did a good job. This game was rushed to the market like most games have been for however many years now. This is evidenced by the massive patching it's had to undergo. There's also a lot of corner-cutting that can be seen in the game. Those things don't = excellent.

[Archedgar]

To the original poster:

I don't understand your argument, I also don't understand your suggestions...


a) If a summoner druid had equal or better minions than a summoner necro, why would anyone play a summoner necro? ... considering that necros have their own drawbacks, such as... requiring a corpse... no oak sage when compared to druids... etc.

b) Assasins aren't meant to be "fighters" they are more like stealthy attackers who move swiftly with low encumberance. Errr...

you are right that the melee Assasin proably should not be as good as the Barbarian. but the question then is, why have these other characters at all? We already have a summoner, a Caster and a fighter so why have a melee Druid, a Caster druid or a Summon druid at all? Just so all three permutations can suck?? No. Paladins are good melee characters as well and it does not hurt game balance at all.

Paladins are inferior Barbs in melee combat, this is true in PvM and PvP, by this I mean, Barbs have greater health, generally higher defense, resists and more overall damage... thus, paladins are not as strong as barbarians.

Conversly, Assasins are also inferior to Barbs in melee combat...

As was stated earlier, the Barbarian is meant to be the unrivaled master of close quarters combat... I don't really see where the argument is...


c) Certain skills are underpowered, that's true. Some of them need to be fixed, however, a few of those skills were never meant to be mainstream powerhouses, I,e, Holy Bolt will never be "uber", it isn't meant to be, nor will Magic Arrow amazon ever be as "uber" as another type of amazon.



The existing balance seems pretty logical to me... I just don't understand the situation...

[SirGalahad]

To the original poster:

I don't understand your argument, I also don't understand your suggestions...
.. I don't really see where the argument is...
... I just don't understand the situation...



Ed, go back to sleep man. Other posters can understand the arguments and suggestions even though they may disagree with them, why cant' you? How do you manage to "Not understand" while still finding something to disagree with? :scratch:

[SirGalahad]

From: Lord Nyax

*If you chose to make a character that has a very very strong attack, but has a glaring weakness (aka. Pure Fire Sorceress)
You said yourself that you base all your observations off of how well a class does in Hell Difficulty. ....People are impatient. The Melee Assassin and the Avenger can kill most anything, it can just take a long time and be annoying.

From: Me

My MetOrb Soceress can do it all.

Thers is another measure that I mentioned from the beginning but let me restate it. I'm looking at the number of people playing these builds at player satisfaction and the money that it generates. No one yet has denied the fact that these charaters are way underplayed. In Hell you see Barbarians, Paladins, Sorcs, Javazons and Necromancers, occasionally you see the other characters.
It doesn't matter that you enjoy the challenge of building these "Annoying" characters if hundreds of other palyers leave the game because they don't.


From Phesto

1. people like variety
2. more choices is a good thing
3. the "underpowered" characters you mentioned can do many things standard characters can't, and as such are often more fun, interesting, useful (such as in a group), and POWERFUL
4. the "underpowered" characters you mentioned are used by countless players who routinely run the most difficult areas of the game; these people don't have the problems you do
5. many "underpowered" skills deal damage in such a way that given the same potential for damage as their simpler counterparts, they could easily become too powerful

Blizzard didn't do an excellent job, they did a good job. This game was rushed to the market like most games have been for however many years now. This is evidenced by the massive patching it's had to undergo. There's also a lot of corner-cutting that can be seen in the game. Those things don't = excellent.

From: Me

3. For instance?
4. "Countless"? No, you can count them. Just look in to some games a see what is being played, Sorcs, Barbarians, Paladins....... . Seriously, though, the majority of people are encountering the problem that I have, that's why these characters get a lower level of play.
5. This could be true but can't be verrified because we have never seen it tested.

[omgitsmeta]

Hmmmm, it is true that some druid/sin builds can solo hell and have advantages over others. What separates these classes from the others is the number of really versatile, cookie cutter builds that can complete Hell without too much trouble and without less than godly gear.

These builds are the Windy Druid, the Lightning Trapsin - both untwinked - and, to a lesser extent, the Werewolf Druid - this one needs some tweaking but it's pretty strong. The windy has high life, deals two types of damage, covers a large area with his spells, has a bear minion and an elemental shield; the trapsin can also do two types of damage, has great crowd control and can clear entire rooms very quickly; the Werewolf druid has a lot of life, AR and life leech. I believe we can all agree that these builds are good on their own without major weaknesses(I'm talking PvM here because the purpose of the game is PvM after all).

The problem is, I don't EVER see any Druid or Assassin builds besides these in Hell.

Tell me the last time you've seen a Fire Druid or a Melee Assassin in Hell. Seriously. I never did, although I see them in Normal often. As such, we can assume there's some serious imbalance regarding those builds.

Thankfully to me, I don't seek the highest amount of damage and the fastest killing speed possible: I like to build characters only for fun. And fun, to me, is something beyond just using the same skill over and over again on an enemy, until it's dead. As such, the Druid, Necro, Assassin and the Barb(to some extent - I love his AI warcries) with their several hotkeys appeal much more to me than the mindless Paladin, Sorceress or Zon. :thumbsup:

And, hey, playing them means you get your class-specific gear for a much, much lower price than Pala or Sorc gear. I've played D2 for 3 years now and I have much more fun playing assassin, necro or druid than the sorc, zon or paladin. Let the e-bay kids get their hammerdins and smiters, I'll just negatively shake my head when asked to play one of these overpowered, mindless builds. :wink2:

[Lord Nyax]

Oh. I think I understand now. Basically, you want more "Cookie Cutter" builds that can easily and quickly clear Hell?

So you'd want the Melee Assassin's damage ramped up enough that she could quickly blow through, say, Durance Levels 2 and 3, with mediocre equip, while maintaining 400%+ MF or so, then easily kill Mephisto. All this without any real danger of dying.

I think I have the right idea...I hope...(everything is easy enough that even the lowest common denominator can use it well).

[omgitsmeta]

No, not really. It's the opposite.

In fact I'd want less powerful builds, in order to actually stimulate teamwork. I'm mainly saying that the reasons why Assassins and Druids aren't as popular is because they have few cookie cutter builds(the 3 I pointed above). I don't think we should even discuss that cookie cutters are the most popular builds in Battle.net, right?

If Druids and Assassins aren't as popular as Paladins or Sorcs, it's because they have few cookie cutter builds and/or are harder to play. Simple as that.

[Cenerae]

There are some high powered builds that people just don't use...

I remember having a friendly match with my lvl 43 necro summoner against a lvl 54 frenzy WW druid. I decrep'd the guy but he still reached me in 2 seconds flat and killed me in one swing before I knew what had hit me.

But in any case, the assassin and druid classes are mix and matches. Assassins are weaker in a toe to toe fight, but they'll struggle less against PI monsters than a barbarian will, as they have more sources of elemental damage. They also have general status effecting magic such as CoS and Mind Blast. How is that underpowered exactly? Sure their claws (At least, I've never seen any) aren't particularly godly for damage, but they have their charges to help with that. It would make for a more interesting character than the cookie cutter barbarian who one hit whirls everything to death (except in the sanctuary :wink2: )

Druids are a sorceress/necromancer cross with a melee tree of their own. Sure their spells aren't fantastic, but most of them seem to focus on support (granted I've not played an elemental druid but they seem to focus around knockback and freeze effects) more than raw damage. Their summons are individually much stronger than a necro can get, and they even synergise each other. And they don't require corpses! What's the use in a 99 minion necro, if you don't have 99 corpses to replenish the casualties? Druids can just shrug and resummon. Can a necro summon something to apply an aura to boost the life or damage of his minions? (Act 2 merc does NOT count) He can replicate the spirit of barbs via Iron Maiden, but not the other spirit effects. Sure the actual bonuses are small compared to the paladin auras, but can a paladin use a pack of wolves or a bear as a tank? (The point that they dont really -need- a tank is not what I'm talking about here.)

Now let's look at the other classes shall we?

Barbarian: Good at hitting things, bad at elemental damage. Has some decent support skills and a good few skills for generally making him tougher and faster.

Amazon: Ranged attacker (Their spear skills are less than impressive, really). Focuses on mobility and the ability to hit repeatedly quickly without being hit. Also has fire and ice based attacks, or thunder and poison, build depending. Lacks any real power at melee (Because the spear skills mostly suck), when compared to most other melee classes.

Sorceress: Elemental damage. Useless at melee combat for the most part. Needs to be mobile to be effective, can't take much of a beating

Necromancer: Focused summoner, can apply raw magic damage if they go down that path, or poison. Curses help their skills out (Which are otherwise relatively low to mid powered).

Paladin: ...about the only class that can deal with just about every situation, if they build right. Hammerdins, smiters, shocker zealots etc...


So excepting the paladin, each class has things that it's good at and things that it's not good at. Druids and Assassins are not going to be awe inspiringly powerful if you focus on one set of skills. I'm pretty sure that's not how they were intended to be used. Try to look at the whole picture, and not the part that states a class is underpowered. Yes, a druid will be weaker than a sorceress, but if you wanted to play a straight sorceress build in the first place...why are you playing a druid?

~Cen

[SirGalahad]

The thing is that what is being produced is not what the customer is expecting. If a customer sees a Paladin fighting and a Barbarian kicking but he will reasonably expect a melee Assassin to be able to knock some heads around as well. They may not expect Barbarian level excellence but they will expect their fully synergised fight Assassin to do as well or nearly as well as the Paladin and, in some situations, even better. Not delivering the same type of damage in exactly the same way but in creatively different and sometimes, more advantageous ways.

I don't understand this aversion to "Cookie Cutter" builds. What is that anyway?? There are a half a dozen ways to do a Paladin or Barbarian, that is not "Cookie Cutter". Does it mean that all the elite equipment looks that same? Would it make some people feel better if they changed the name on half the Wind force bows and altered a few of the stats to make it look different? C'mon the best is the best, if it looks the same, who cares?

I think that the whole campaign against what some call "Cookie Cutter" is wrong headed anyway. There are many people who like building model cars, kit cars, bikes, trucks, race cars, old cars, model planes, real planes etc. etc. etc. and they don't care if the parts that they use are similar to the ones that someone else used! (Or even if their result looks similar) All they care about is, the process of building it, the quality of work put in to it, and whether or not it works, that's it. It seems that what "Cookie Cutter" means is that it works. (Give me that cutter thing!) With few, if any, exceptions, I want what I build to work.

It almost seems laughable to see some of the things being written here. It's almost as if rival game companies have sent moles over to confuse and frustrate the view of what the game players want. I don't think that has happened but from looking at what's being said, it might as well have. In some of these post; unplayable characters = good, when specialization is needed diversity is recommend , when a good character becomes popular they demand that it be narfed and so on.

I mean really, everyone knows that a melee assassin is a loser but some people actually like that. They have their own reasons for that but do they understand that most players think that that is really weird? I mean who likes a fighter that can't fight? Who buys a parrot that can't talk?? I can just see it now.

Customer: Ahem, excuse me I would like to return this parrot (Melee Assassin) it doesn't talk (It's no fun).
Shopkeeper: Well, you have to work with it to talk.
Customer: I have. Actually it's dead (It sucks).
Shopkeeper: It's not dead. It's just sleeping (You need better equipment).
Customer: It's not sleeping it's dead! Look at it! (I've done everything that everyone has told me and it still sucks.)
Shopkeeper: No, no it's just sad. It's aikin for the fjords! (You're just impatient and lazy, play it till level 99 and put Enigma on it.)
Customer in a barely controlled voice: I don't care what you say I am not paying for a parrot (melee character) that can't talk (fight)!

Well, some people will never see eye to eye.

[Cenerae]

"Cookie Cutter" builds are the ones that everyone uses.

For the majority, they just want to kick *** the most explosive way possible. If you're not happy that the assassin is unable to melee as effectively as a barb or pally, then look to her other strengths. The assassin is not MEANT to be a pure melee class. At least, not in the 'level one or two skills to own' category. I already outlined that in my previous post if you read it...

[Valvolux]

to confuse and frustrate the view of what the game players want.

You talk about it as if everyone wants the same thing in a game...that’s just plain wrong.

In some of these post; unplayable characters = good

Not one of the 7 chars classes is unplayable, I think you're just showing your lack of experience here.

I mean really, everyone knows that a melee assassin is a loser but some people actually like that.

50k damage melee assassin is somehow weak? I've soloed uber trist with a kicker (melee sin)...guess you're just wrong, again. Maybe play the game longer than 2 weeks before giving your 'suggestions'.

[SirGalahad]

"Cookie Cutter" builds are the ones that everyone uses.

And that's bad? Let me get this straight, if Blizzard comes out with new characters which few people like or play then that is a good thing? Even though the "Assasin" has a whole tree and synergies devoted to fighting skills it's good that she can't fight? You think that they can make money that way?

Not withstanding, there are already plenty of "off the wall" and dificult builds to play out there. Try a fire aura paladin, a throw barb, a pure singing barb, a healing paladin etc. Why do you need a whole character type devoted to, "It won't play?"


For the majority, they just want to kick *** the most explosive way possible. If you're not happy that the assassin is unable to melee as effectively as a barb or pally, then look to her other strengths. The assassin is not MEANT to be a pure melee class. At least, not in the 'level one or two skills to own' category. I already outlined that in my previous post if you read it...

I agree that most people want to kick butt (It is a combat game after all).

I guess I can add a new line to the skit:

ShopKeeper: Oh, it's a special parrot [Melee character] sir. It's a special non-talking [Non-fighting] parrot [Assasin]........It's not MEANT to talk [fight]. You should consider yourself very lucky to have one of these.

Customer: :sad: I'm going.

[Cenerae]

Again: The assassin CAN fight. If you take the assassin and expect her to perform as well as a barbarian or a paladin in combat, you're going to be dissappointed. She is quite capable of handling herself in a fight, but obviously is not going to beat a barbarian at the job. After all, that's what the barbarian is good at, hitting things. Assassins can do it well, and they also have things the barbarian doesn't, to make up for their lack of raw power.

So the assassin is NOT useless, and NOT weak. You just need to stop looking at one aspect of the class and look at the whole thing. She isn't going to be as powerful as a barbarian in toe to toe combat, because she was never meant to be.

The majority of the people who take classes just want to look at one facet of the class and use it to make an uber build. The reason you see few assassins is because they require different techniques to work. And the end result, while well powered, is not going to have the big damage figures that the cookie cutters have.

It's not all about damage, it's about technique. Assassins require a good technique if you want to use them for melee, and you need to compensate for their weaknesses (Lower health, lower regular damage) with their strengths (Phoenix Strike, Tiger Strike, Cobra Strike...etc...etc...)

So when you start claiming the assassin is too weak, try not to compare her to a barbarian or paladin and state that she 'cannot' melee. She can do it perfectly fine, if you're willing to put effort into it. If you're not willing to put effort in, then pick your cookie cutter build of choice and have fun.

~Cen

[Terenas]

lvl 54 frenzy WW druid
Ehm...what is that ? :scratch: I am losing some rw here ?

[Cenerae]

Werewolf with frenzy (I forget the name apparently? The zeal-esque attack)

[Evrae Altana]

Werewolf with frenzy (I forget the name apparently? The zeal-esque attack)That would be Fury.

[kingdryland]

Paladins are inferior Barbs in melee combat, this is true in PvM and PvP, by this I mean, Barbs have greater health, generally higher defense, resists and more overall damage... thus, paladins are not as strong as barbarians.



In my opinion a barb is more offensive type of meleer and pally is more defensive. A viking with dual weapons vs a knight in full plate. Funny enough both classes have no big difference in melee damage output and defense. Barbs have only one real pvp combat skill ,ww (which at least can be easily adapted to various conditions) while half of the pally combat skill tree can produce duelers,that's why there are so many great paladin melee/caster hybrid builds.

[Valvolux]

Let me get this straight, if Blizzard comes out with new characters which few people like or play then that is a good thing? Even though the "Assasin" has a whole tree and synergies devoted to fighting skills it's good that she can't fight?

Why can't you understand that assassins can melee just fine? Just because you're to dim to make one that works you assume that everyone else is as well. Sure if an assassin used only the 'Martial Arts' tree then they're limited but the same can be said for a barb that uses only the 'Combat Masteries' tree can’t it.

Not withstanding, there are already plenty of "off the wall" and dificult builds to play out there. Try a fire aura paladin, a throw barb, a pure singing barb, a healing paladin etc. Why do you need a whole character type devoted to, "It won't play?"

Again you associate 'different/non standard' builds with 'It won't play'...which is totally wrong. Throwers work great, Singers work great, and guess what? Melee sins work great as well. Go read about assassins and druids before you spout more dribble.

[Terenas]

Werewolf with frenzy (I forget the name apparently? The zeal-esque attack)
I got the ww part from elsewhere here, as for the Frenzy part...well, gz on the "zeal-esque" term, it is just great ! :thumbsup:

[SirGalahad]

Again: The assassin CAN fight. If you take the assassin and expect her to perform as well as a barbarian or a paladin in combat, you're going to be dissappointed. She is quite capable of handling herself in a fight, but obviously is not going to beat a barbarian at the job. After all, that's what the barbarian is good at, hitting things. Assassins can do it well, and they also have things the barbarian doesn't, to make up for their lack of raw power.

So the assassin is NOT useless, and NOT weak. You just need to stop looking at one aspect of the class and look at the whole thing. She isn't going to be as powerful as a barbarian in toe to toe combat, because she was never meant to be.

The majority of the people who take classes just want to look at one facet of the class and use it to make an uber build. The reason you see few assassins is because they require different techniques to work. And the end result, while well powered, is not going to have the big damage figures that the cookie cutters have.

~Cen

Hi,

Y'know you are losing a bit of credibility here when you say that the Melee Assasin is "quite capable" and then turn arround and admit that not many people play them. The Paladin is quite capable of handling himself in a fight, if the Melee Assasin where "quite capable" of doing the same, then more people would be playing them.
Actually I don't expect the Melee Assasin to do as well as the Barbarian but I do expect her to be able to do the job. Let me explain it this way, I was in the Army for a number of years and learned a few things about combat. For instance, there are a number of things that can kill a tank on the battle field. One is another tank. The tank has heavy armor and moves on the ground. It's main advantage is that it can use the terrain for cover and concealment when engageing the enemy. Another good tank killer is the A-10 Thunderbolt. I also has pretty heaver armor but it is unhamperd by things like mountains and rivers. It needs the heavy armor though because it takes a lot more fire than the tank does. I've seen A-10's come in with only one engine and parts of the wings blown off. The Apache helicopter is even better, it can use the terrain for cover, pop up, unleash fire and then drop back down presenting the enemy no target to return fire to. But helicopters have been know to be taken down by small arms fire, something unheard of for tanks.
All of these war machines deliver the same type of damage in different ways, they have different advantages and disadvantages but they all have one thing in common, they can get the job done!

You seem to be argueing for something that can't get the job done as well. This may have been Blizzard's intention but we will just have to disagree as to wether that is a good thing or not.

Agian: My view of things would be to have all the main builds (including the Melee Assasin, the Summon Druid and the Elemental Druid) fun and playable up until the end of Hell level. (That means that a greater number of people would be playing them resulting in greater customer satisfaction and therefore increased revenue for Blizz.) Then, leave the Uber Bosses, the Ubers and any more dificult build to the more creative players.

[asphoRe]

Agian: My view of things would be to have all the main builds (including the Melee Assasin, the Summon Druid and the Elemental Druid) fun and playable up until the end of Hell level.

They all are, people don't play them because there are better choices out there.

I think you are missing on the fact that, most of the bnet players strive for efficiency more than anything else. So them not making a melee sin, summon druid or elem druid has nothing to do with the fact that they aren't playable to endgame. Like I said they all are, but there are better choices out there. It is inevitable that some builds are better than others.

[Valvolux]

Using that logic EVERYONE should ONLY play Hammerdins in pvm, because nothing can compare to the speed at which they kill monsters.

Strange that i see lots of other builds apart from hammerdins.

If you want to use analogy about unplayed builds. London is a popular holiday spot, having hundreds of thousands of ppl visit each year. Whereas a beach in Cambodia only gets a few hundred ppl visit it per year. Does this make London a better place to visit? No of course not, different ppl prefer different things.

Bottom line, go make a hammerdin and stop whining about how useless melee sins are. If you don't like melee sins...exercise your choice and DON'T PLAY ONE!

[Nimbostratus]

Using that logic EVERYONE should ONLY play Hammerdins in pvm, because nothing can compare to the speed at which they kill monsters.

Strange that i see lots of other builds apart from hammerdins.

If you want to use analogy about unplayed builds. London is a popular holiday spot, having hundreds of thousands of ppl visit each year. Whereas a beach in Cambodia only gets a few hundred ppl visit it per year. Does this make London a better place to visit? No of course not, different ppl prefer different things.

Bottom line, go make a hammerdin and stop whining about how useless melee sins are. If you don't like melee sins...exercise your choice and DON'T PLAY ONE!

The problem isn't that they're just unpopular; the reason behind their unpopularity is the problem. Yes, <insert unpopular build> is capable of going through Hell difficulty just as easily as <insert cookie-cutter build>, but only with certain equipment and certain playing styles.

People most oftenly use characters such as Hammerdins, Zealots, and Meteorb Sorceresses because they're fairly cheap and very easy to use, almost regardless of the player's ability. Here's a pretty simple analogy for different builds:

Imagine you are trying to hit a target at medium range. The things you can use to accomplish this are a sniper rifle (meteorb sorceress), a good crossbow with a scope (zealot), a pistol (melee enchantress), and a slingshot with a rock (martyr paladin). Killing the target = the character is very successful and easy to use throughout the game.

-Sniper rifle: Highly accurate; If all goes well, a headshot is scored. Even if it isn't a headshot, there's still a high chance of killing or severely injuring the target. (in otherwords, the meteorb sorc annihilates nearly everything, even with mediocre gear.)
-Crossbow: Similar to the sniper rifle, but a bit less power and accuracy. Still pretty good at hitting and injuring/killing the target. (Zealots are probably one of the cheapest melee characters and are very simple to use.)
-Pistol: Lower power and accuracy. It'll probably take a few tries to score a good hit. (For an enchantress to be effective, they need fairly good equipment and more skill, as sorces weren't meant for melee)
-Sinlgshot: To do any real damage with this thing, you'll have to be VERY lucky. (Martyrs are very expensive and require the player to constantly think of how dangerous the situation is, since hitting something they can't leech from = high damage/death to self.)

Beating Hell difficult is possible with pretty much anything, its just that most people don't want to spend a dozen high runes (or $50 on Ebay...) or take 5 minutes to kill a single monster to finish the game with an unpopular build.

[Valvolux]

That’s great, but most the unpopular builds don't cost as much as the popular ones. Pally combat gcs cost LOTS, whereas Martial arts gcs/Druid summoning gcs cost next to zero, making unpopular builds is far cheaper actually.

As for that whole 5 mins to kill a single monster...think we can safely assume that the build isn't at fault, more like the player is.

I've seen some horrible hammerdins, that had died very easily and failed to kill even quill rats! Yet ppl don't start labelling all hammerdins as 'unplayable', why do it with other builds.

Most ppl choose to play a hammerdin etc over a melee sin because their UBeR L33t 10 year old friend does.

[Nimbostratus]

That’s great, but most the unpopular builds don't cost as much as the popular ones. Pally combat gcs cost LOTS, whereas Martial arts gcs/Druid summoning gcs cost next to zero, making unpopular builds is far cheaper actually.

As for that whole 5 mins to kill a single monster...think we can safely assume that the build isn't at fault, more like the player is.

I've seen some horrible hammerdins, that had died very easily and failed to kill even quill rats! Yet ppl don't start labelling all hammerdins as 'unplayable', why do it with other builds.

Most ppl choose to play a hammerdin etc over a melee sin because their UBeR L33t 10 year old friend does.

-True, +skill charms for the popular builds ARE expensive, but they're simply an accessory; You only need them if you're going to do PvP or just want to be t3h uber 1337. And since the basic mentality of so many players is to just have the highest damage possible, it's simply supply & demand at work.

-5 minutes to kill something = exaggeration. I was just saying that some builds almost NEED an expensive weapon to work effectively, while others can hack away with something that costs only a couple pgems.

-That's either because A) the player is really bad, or B) they were using some REALLY craptacular gear.

-They try something that they know will work first, then, once they get bored of spamming hammers all day, they go on and try something else.