Am I the only javazon who's like WTF?

[remsy]

I see all these best character discussions and they always say stuff about this character and that character being the best. They never mention a LF/CS amazon.

My javazon is nowhere near top-level of even lightning amazon play yet she has defeated alot of characters. From 'godly' hammerdins to trappers to ww sins and barbs.

And I can say that there are javazons out there who have gear that's up to 5times better than what I wear and I wonder why they have nothing to say about this matter.

Most people are dispatched with a poke or 2. Good characters with absorb take 5-10 pokes and they're too busy blocking to attack so they just wait for death.

Godly characters are almost immune to poking so in comes strategy 2. Run around the area letting them chase you until they get to a bunch of trees or something turn around and let the pierce and LF take effect. Even if they absorb all the light dmg, no one can absorb all the physical damage from that many javs.

I also love the characters who summon minions.
The players obviously have the good sense to keep back but the minions don't have that sense and come towards me.:thumbsup:
So while they're safely off screen, their minions aren't and I just aim at those and LF makes them feel it a screen away. Good times.

Characters that are pretty much unkillable though?
Good summoners and windy druids. No one can tank like these guys when they have enigma on and port right on top of you.

Although when I get my griffs and my 4 extra jav charms(only have 3 now) we'll see...

And my funniest duel was when it was me against these two ga bowazons.

They'd been tging and nking and had done so to my druid so I went and got my mediocre java and managed to kill them both at the same time 7/10 times.

When I asked to see what the lvl 86 one was wearing, she showed me:
the skull helm with 3 40/15s and an armor with 4 40/15s.
Perfect faith, and the other standard jewelery of a pvp bowazon. Anni and torch in stash. You know? The works.

And if my useless zon could do it, so could about 30% of the other zons out there.

Go lightning java!!

[DarkMousy]

You have a very one sided matchup vs smiters. NO competent smiter will lose to a cs zon in a series.

[DjSlayer]

True, don't even need to absorb them really, fortitude gives 5% extra light res and in a fair duel (with a "go") the zon is dead within seconds. I've seen CS zons take out windys and hammerdins pretty easy, but usually I see them standing at the entrance of rouge camp and pk anyone who go out.

- D.J.

[remsy]

Oh I forgot about smiters. Yeah I don't even bother going out of town when they're around...

Why does blizzard love pallies so much?

[sorceressgod]

javazons aren't that hard to kill actually. unless you have lots of dodge/evade/avoid skill points. like this zon, whom i blasted 20 over lightnings at her and dodged ALL lol.

[Omikron8]

one word

teleport

other classes can achieve reasonable casting breakpoints easily, zons cannot

sorcs will dance around you
barbs will rip you apart
pallies will charge or spam foh/hammers/smite/whatever
necs will tele/prison/spear/spirit
assasins will tele/trap/mb spam
druids will tele/minion stack/tornado spam

this is the same reason why shapeshift druids in general suck in public duels

[mastermind]

You have a very one sided matchup vs smiters. NO competent smiter will lose to a cs zon in a series.

that right chances are the smiter will be able to take a good few pokes also the fact that smite does not miss u will get lifetaped in seconds then it would be game over.

EDIT

The duel would only last mere seconds

Well ppl like pallies becasue they are some very strong demanding pvp builds, i.e a Hammer build, FOH, Smiter, chargers, Mages all of these build are very tough to go up against in the duel arena.

[Fart]

I find javazons fairly easy on my hammerdin unless they use Lighting Fury then it gets complicated. But once I put on a Lo shield they are terribly easy. I've yet to find a CS zon who can compete with holy freeze and level 1 smite with grief.

I agree that CS zons can whipe out entire pub games depending on whose in the game, but any mainstream build can.

[remsy]

one word

teleport

other classes can achieve reasonable casting breakpoints easily, zons cannot

sorcs will dance around you
barbs will rip you apart
pallies will charge or spam foh/hammers/smite/whatever
necs will tele/prison/spear/spirit
assasins will tele/trap/mb spam
druids will tele/minion stack/tornado spam

this is the same reason why shapeshift druids in general suck in public duels

Sorcs aren't a problem for any good zon I'm sorry.
Not alot of barbs either unless they came to that game prepared to deal with lightning.

Hammerdins are 60-40 in their favor and that's because I haven't gotten all my gear yet.

Assassins only get me when they've faded

Only the godly necs can take on zons so I don't know what you're talking about here.

How can foh get me anyway? Ever hear of dodge?

Only smiters and good windies for the consistent win.

Smiters because they're smiters and don't miss. Windies because of the cyclone armor.

Fighting any good lightning zon will reveal that unless you have full confidence in your resists, minion stacking is stupid. Why do you think LF is great in cow games? It's because of the large groups

Whenever you get those necro summoners who tele on top of you, all I did was run out of his crowd and throw two bolts. First one got his merc and leeched me back all my life and the next one got him and all his minions. He had absorb so I couldn't finish him off but unless he was gonna curse me to death that fight was over.

Hammerdins are simply a matter of running away from them when they tele on top of you. Some have the good resists though so 2 pokes won't finish them off and those are the ones that get me alot. But most of the hammerdins I meet admittedly are those pvm noobs who think because their hammers do 14k damage means they can own anything even if they aren't built for pvp.

True pvp hammerdins are good...

And what are you even talking about with casting breakpoints?
My zon can run almost as fast as people teleport at this point. My game lags because of how fast I run sometimes. Enigma, 8 r/w scs and gore-riders. The only reason I don't add cats eye is I'm a jav and I really like highlords mods.

We need IAS not cast rate. Have your enigmas.

And considering we are one of the characters that can kill from off screen...

And once again where are the better javazons to chip in here?

I tell you, since faith came out, I've seen too few javs in pvp.

There was this one cool plague-zon though. The one with the guided arrow switch. I liked her.

[kabal]

How exactly do you keep pace with teleporters with just Enigma, Gores, and 8 frw SC's? Even assuming you have 1.09 frw SC's (5% per SC) you still only have 115% frw total (all from gear and charms) which translates to +2.64 yards per second according to this page:

http://diabloii.net/items/modifiers/fastrw.shtml

For comparison's sake, the typical BvC barb (40% Increased Speed, 45% Enigma, 30% Gores/rare boots) has +3.6 yards per second which is substantially faster than your zon, and yet they still can't chase down teleporters on foot.

[TarnishedHope]

Wrote a VERY long reply, and it didn't went through and vanished. Don't feel like typing the whole thing over again, so here's the summary.

JAVAZON CAN ONLY KILL INEXPERIENCED PPL.

WIth max resist/BO, most character will take 2 hits to kill.


Against casters, you are meat. Any experienced/smart casters will be awared of the fact that javazon can suddenly appear out of nowhere and kill you. While you claim to be able to keep up with them, I doubt it. Even with MAX run walk possibily from items, any good casters with enough FCR will be able to teleport away to a safe distance, spam, and teleport again.

Bone Necro/sorc with good FCR = Dodge Lock. Sry, but gg. Bone necro can even spam bone spirits and BP you when you get anywhere near him.

WW barb? Some1 fill him in please. There's NO WAY a good, or half decent, BvB/BvC WW barb will ever lose to Javazons. If they do, they suck.

Against assa? Seriously, who needs Fade? (unless you use C/C) Good WW sin can put you in a stunlock with trap/mb/ww. A good trapsin will stun you with mb and won't ever let you get close enough to CS him. Trust me, your LF will barely be hurting against any good characters that aren't necro. (meat :jig: ?)

Palis? Spam hammer, run, and repeat. He'll never die. Zealots will probably get owned tho. Then again, zealots pretty much lose to everyone now. (fun to use nevertheless)

FoHdons? They'll eat you alive. Even if you stack sorb/resist, a good FoHdon can always hit you with FoH for SEVERAL SEVERAL times, and leave you running behind him forever. Seriously, do you expect them to sit there and keep FoHing you? Sure, you can dodge... So? They can always FoH some more while you do your lil dodge animation.

Auradon? Huh, don't go there.

Wind druids? Whoo, spam tornado/good tele.

No offense, but any decent PvP character should have full resist in hell. If they don't, then they probably should grab some charms.

Without Tele., YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO EVEN GET CLOSE TO ANY GOOD CASTERS. (unless they just sit there and lock you in Dodge lock with Bone Spear/etc., or tank you with ES)

LF/CS javazons are more or less of a fun character, and arguably the best PvM character. In PvP? You'll only be able to kill inexperienced ppl/noobs/people who make too much mistakes.

OOooOO, you can kill people off screen... WEEEH.

Experienced players will recognize that, and will not allow you to close in on them. WWbarbs and smiters will probably be the ones to chase you around the map.

Everything that I mentioned above, I did not include using dual wisps + T-God, which will utterly waste a LF/CS zon.

Another way to guarantee a win on LF/CS javazon? Decrepify/Holy Freeze them... or perhaps both?

My point? There's a very good reason why Javazons are the diminishing class for PvP.


And of course, there are some exceptional players in every build, and will just be owning people in PvP with a LF/CS javazon. However, those are the minority.

Javazons might wipe the floor with pub. duelers, but when they are thrown against an experienced PvP character... Sry, but GG. :evil:

[remsy]

You are wrong...

You don't need enough r/w to actually catch a sorc or any porter as a javazon.

As it turns out I have projectiles aswell that work even off screen.

I only run to make sure I see their names on the map and then I throw in that direction.

That means that they can either cast or teleport away, 9/10 times they teleport away and if they're not cowards they're usually coming towards me to try to finish me and for the most part all I have to do is run right up to them while dodging their projectiles with my passives and poke, poke, poke away.

And no. Just like with sorcs, you can only stack so much in resistances and these can always be broken.

So my comment about lightning stands. Unless they came prepared to take on lightning, alot of people will go down. My negative lightning's only 15% from tstrokes and that hurts quite a few people.

If I were to get my hands on a griffs and 2 facets, I'm pretty sure I'm gravy.

And about that whole stunlock thing with the trappers, I found I could still throw enough javelins to make them think about backing off to a safer distance or recasting traps i.e. even that isn't infallible.

As for this dodge lock, you make it seem like it's the easiest thing in the world to pull off. It isn't. And it doesn't even happen everytime the scenario might occur.

A scenario where it happens is the chaos sanctuary where you have all of Lord Venitars goons plus the Lord himself on you and he's lightning enchanted.

Sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't. There isn't a dodge-lock formula so I doubt any necro goes into a duel hoping for that.

And since when was this a CS zon? It was a LF/CS hybrid from the get go.

WW sins also need to get close to do damage as their traps aren't nearly as strong as an actual trappers traps. And it's either ww or MB, not both.
Another worthless point.

The thing that makes wwsins good is what makes them good agaisnt all and isn't a javazon weakness.

As for the killing off screen thing, you just proved you must be some sort of retarded juvenile.

Which experienced player would spend the duel trying to runaway from my screen? I thought the point of the duel was to kill each other and if I can't get to you, you can't get to me as I too have an attack that has the maximum range.

And LF barely hurting? The javelin alone does a max of 2.5k damage not upped. This is before lightning kicks in. SO what are you talking about man? How do you think javazons get life leech?

Javazons can beat even experienced players when at their best, just like other characters can do the same. What you're attempting to say is javazons can't beat any good players and that's stupidity.

[Uncle_Mike]

Wrote a VERY long reply, and it didn't went through and vanished. Don't feel like typing the whole thing over again, so here's the summary.

JAVAZON CAN ONLY KILL INEXPERIENCED PPL.



I second that - on the basis of my wins vs zons I can also say that even unexperienced players stand a chance. I have only duelled them with my hammerdin and a newly built windy and to be honest zons are by far the only class I have hardly experienced problems with. The dodge evade part is annoying but does, eventually, little in their favour.

That is if they duel, in public games most zons prefer to just nk and town guard - which is in fact where they shine :wink3:

Mike

edit:

Sure, it is possible to kill with zons but they are just not among the top-of-the-line killers. Most of your attacks are blockable, there also is absorb.

[Skribblle]

Javazons are a joke.. im sorry. I don't even need to resort to bone prison or decrip. Dance(teleport) around them 2-3 spirits and they die. They decide to throw javs IN A STRAIGHT LINE, yea, real hard to dodge these.. rofl, Doesnt work. Kill offscreen kill what offscreen? People that cant step down an inch? Ok if your standing still not expecting a CS zon, let them run up and start poking you, you might die. Me, being a necro level 97 BO'ed at almost 2.5k life(max block) Assuming i dont have any wisps or t.god on it takes them about 4-5 pokes to kill me. Now i get hit by the first because i dont expect it. I can usually just stand there and tank your pokes while throwing spirits at you. Now one of 2 things happens here, you go into dodge lock and die, or you dont dodge at all and die. This is assuming the BEST POSSIBLE conditions for YOU. Me expecting you, with light sorb... please you wouldnt even stand a fraction of a chance(wont even mention decrip or prison lol...)

[kabal]

Javazons can win duels, but they won't win them the way you're describing. What sorc or necro would let you actually run up to them and hit them with CS point blank? If you had said that you kill them with farcast CS once you get a namelock then that's at least plausible, but for you to "run right up to them while dodging their projectiles with my passives and poke, poke, poke away" is ridiculous. By the time you run to where they were, they would have already tele'ed 2 screens away.

Contrary to what you might think, LF only goes to about the upper corners of your screen. What that means is that you're out-ranged by fireball, bone spirit/spear, traps, etc. so they can stay out of your range and snipe away at you from afar.

Can I get the resident javazon pros to confirm that you don't beat good teleporting casters just by running up to them for CS and/or spamming LF?

[sorceressgod]

actually i think i've a better solution to this, though i have TOTALLY NO experience with javazons :).

first. stock mad madly with facets, gcs, and all those stuff which gives you a nice one hit kill one most chars(particularly CS).

and oh, wear arachnids and magefists and griffons as well(for the FCR)

so here's what you do basically - rightclick telelock, quickly switch hotkeys(on ur right click) to charged strike just like how a hammerdin namelocks.

if u've got a retreating enemy, throw some of your powerful matchsticks at him :)

[AlphaStrikeII]

Have been duelling a bit with my budget amazon and it will lose to almost any really skilled dueller with top of the line gear, but it's damned fun to play and does ok in pub games.
What I've found to be the key is using diffrent strategies for different situations.
Basicly I'm a javazon with LF and CS maxed, 1 point GA and the rest in the passive tree. Bow amas are usually possible to take down with jab, rush inn and 4,5 frame speed sends them into hit recovery, biggest problem is the kb users. Javazons can take me if they have huge dmg, some of them jab is best on some CS works better on.
Barbs is where the bow comes in, Harmony great bow at 8 frame, never stand still and fire as often as possible, a good tele ww wil most likely get you but as we all know not all of them are good......
Sorc is bowtime again, Harmony for some, Lycander's with shael for others (7 frame), always move so they can't easiely hit you and if they teleport on top of you as many sorc will do, they better be fast killers and get me before i switch to java(townshooters is plain fun with this one).
Necro, usually Bone prison->gg
Pala, gg
Druid, can take out the minions easily enough but usually get killed shortly after.

Not a uber build no, but a char with 1,4K life 75 block 51, 62, 51 evade...and 117 frw with java and 97 frw+10 vigor with bow is not an easy match. Now if only I had the funds to make a real top line dueller.......

[remsy]

@Kabal actually you do.
It's called a kamikaze run. You depend on the fact that they know that if they get in one hit with their lightning or orb or whatever projectile, I'm as good as dead and they bank on this being granted because they clicked on you with their mouse.

You simply take for granted that your dodge is gonna work and run up to them and poke.

It has worked for me too many times so you guys can scream all you want about zons being jokes but from experience that isn't true.

Once I get full gear, I'll challenge you to a duel if you want. My acc is *remsy.

@Skirbble: What are you talking about? I've been accused of h4x enought times to know that my javs go off screen.
And a very simple place to see that javs go atleast 1 and a half screens is arcane sanctuary. Throw a jav and run after it and see what happens.

You speaking from what you think. I speak from what I've experienced so far.
You are of the school that just likes to yell extremely loudly until everyone gives up and agrees with you but not everyone backs off.

@The post above: Exactly, javs aren't the underpowered gimps the other guys are making them out to be, they win duels. And they win enough that you comeback with them to duel some more.

Anyway, my accounts been given.

[Skribblle]

OH, its not from what i think at all. I've dueled MANY level 95+ Javazons. While i have lost a few fair "Go" Duel's, i win alot more than i lose. Everything i wrote is from experiance. Javazons with 9 gc's, anni, torch and TOP TOP gear(which i HAVE DUELED) can't beat me. Thats just the way it is. If your beating necro's i would suggest trying to find decent duelers who know how to prison and name lock. Who's yelling loud? Im just stating the fact's. Javazons are not a top pvp class... thats just the way it is.

[De4dEyE]

It should be obvious that if you stack resists to 90-95% with Lo or use a tgods that Javzons are disadvantaged. Saying that you beat them EZPK because you almost negated them is lame.

Also, duel a zon that can farcast well, there's a difference.

[fredsta54]

Dont forget about farcast. Really makes a world of diffirence when you can do it consistently









Fred

[CupOfTea]

I dont know the point of those flames, but there *are* good pvp javazons, who realy are tough. With bo, max block and avoids they tank much hits, they run/walk fast and spam fury that also do physical and light damage, also if you are standing in one place for moment , you can be poked by tele-cs too

IMO javazons are good in pvp in case player is skilled

[Phyrexial]

Decrep = You lose against a decent bone necro. Anyone that slaps on a Doom weapon or uses HF aura will also smack around zons.

If you are USeast NL I'd be glad to use my very mediocre necro against your cs zon. Gear wise we should be fairly evenly matched if not moreso in your favor, trust me when I say my necro is very low budget.

[Rancors]

javazon = lose to daggermancer.

[Phyrexial]

javazon = lose to daggermancer.
I wouldn't go that far... CS zons still hurt alot if they can get to you.

[BrettTheJet]

Honestly, with an assassin I just lay down wake of fire and mind blast them then tele in to finish them off, if done right you don't even get hit.

[TarnishedHope]

Healthy, heated arguments are always great to have... However, please don't say it as if everyone = idiot and will just let you CS them.

Personally, I rarely allow CS zons to namelock me...

Oh and, as a respond to remsy's earlier statement... Do you seriously expect someone to be scared of your LF? In comparison with Lightning/LS, your LF is but a piece of cake to tank.

Farcast is annoying, but can actually be easily avoided. First of all, they'll need to get a good namelock on you. Also, I believe that namelocks will wear off if you simply fly away far enough.

Against good trapsin/bone necro, mind blast will make the duel hard for you (after all, that's the most important skill of a trapsin), and good usage of Decrep./BP will make it nearly impossible for you.

As for resist., almost ALL my characters have max resist in hell... It's simply a goal that I like to hit with my setups, and most of them have enough resists to tank a mere 20~25% -light resist. I don't know about other people, but I personally believe that any good PvP characters would need it.

I did not flame, but merely stated the obvious. I said that there ARE exceptionally skilled javazons that are tough to duel against... just not many. If you compare a skilled javazons with a skilled FoHdon/Sorc./Windy/BvB/BvC/necro, who do you think have the obvious upperhand?

No offense, but those people who get killed by Tele-CS needs to work on their tele... Afterall, Javazon's FCR are, unfortunately, pathetic, and most people should be able to see their lil raise-java-and-get-ready-to-tele animation. (if they are close enough to see it, then javazon probably isn't close enough to tele. CS at an efficient speed).

Errr, remsy? Do you not realize that you'll be in a Dodge animation if they fire Orb/projectile item at you? And that with a decent FCR, your javazon will be in a Dodge lock?

My friend, Steven (USWest ladder, accnt not going to be given without his permission), has an exceptional javazon, and is rather good in PvP. However, he never won a duel against me, since I already know the exact tricks that he'll try to pull. What I'm saying is that javazons only have so many options... and you'll eventually see a pattern in their strategies. With my 125 FCR bonenecro, and can easily decrep/spam bone spirit/BP/or Bone Spear when he get close (Dodge lock + the lil spirits chasin behind him as he tried to namelock me)

I have dueled several exceptional javazons, but they simply are not a good class of duelers. With good tele./experiences, a javazon is nothing but an easy PK.

[DarkMousy]

If you don't believe in tele/cs, then you don't believe in telezerking either. 11 frame teleport on a zon more than does it if you get a delaylock, and it's the timing that makes it effective, not the actual teleport. If done at the proper time, your opponent won't be ready for it/expecting it. It's essentially a tele-zerk, but it doesn't miss. Also, say I teleport on you and poke while you're teleporting away. 1/2 the time if my poking animation has more/less gone through, when you teleport away and reappear the CS will hit you then. It's like a farcast. I've killed alot of people this way, then they cry that I hack. Also, to add to the pandemonium, I use a CS/plague hybrid. 6.4k cs is enough to deal with most casters, 2-3 pokes and they're gone, 82k plague helps alot when I get the chance to throw one and score a hit.

Duel vita/marvel if you don't believe me.

[Omikron8]

if you consistently get tricked by an 11 frame teleport melee attempt then i doubt your dueling skills

[DarkMousy]

Mix in FC/light fury and the fact that you're not a flawless teleporter and it's a very real situation. Again, you don't teleport constantly, you're running around and tossing fury/fcing most of the duel. When the opportunity presents itself, you use it. A BVC with arach teleports @ 11 frames and telezerks are an easy way to kill characters without maxblock. 12 or 11 frame teleCS achieves roughly the same thing except for the fact that CS > zerk in that it's unblockable and it has the chance to FC. Furthermore, chain telelocks present a problem as well; namelock tele + cs, if you miss then relock quickly with unsummon and rinse/repeat. Works wonders if your connection is good.

[Skribblle]

Delete double post lol.

[Skribblle]

Ok, after the first TeleCS, you wont be able to get another one off... your not making any sense. CS sucks, im sorry. How many telezerkers do you see in a duel game? Not too many lol. 11 frames is nothing, i can teleport 3 times, and cast 3 spirits before you teleport once. As soon as you land where your teleporting ill be gone again and 3 more spirits are coming. So what can you do now? You cant CS, that option was gone from the start.. soooo you start throwing javs at me? lol... Sorry, that doest work. They just don't hit, After the zon realizes she cant run up and poke me they usually run into town unhostile and ask me to also.. always the same thing. All im saying is CS zons cant beat necros. I have a smiter also, CS zons cant beat smiters. I cant speak for the other classes since my main duelers are the necro and smiter.

Out of every class and every build, after dueling many 90+'s of each class over and over i have to say without a single doubt in my mind CS zons are by far and away the easiest class to beat for both my smiter and necro. I really don't know how you two keep arguing about this, i can't even imagine how you guys would think CS zons are top tier... it just doesnt make sense.. i cant even fathom it. IF your on useast ladder feel free to leave me your account name, we can duel untill your satisfied...

[Phyrexial]

I don't have much confidence in CS zons but plague/cs hybrids are an entirely different matter. I've seen some very well played versions of that build that can do very well against even good players with top builds.

[DarkMousy]

As I explicity stated, CS zons have a nearly 1 sided matchup against smiters. Necros are possible gm, but decrep > zons. Even then about 75/25 in necro's favour. I'll explain chain telenamelocking. Namelock teleport, CS on leftclick. Teleport on the other char, click CS once hold, and you have them lock again. So, in short, nl with left click CS or right click unsummon, tele, renamelock with left click CS.

http://www.zippyvideos.com/6783480212008626/moviemovie/*tehfizzle

@ phrex: I remade my cs/plague zon (although she's missing some charms still) and having fun with her again =). No bow switch, just straight plague/cs with some light fury tossed in there. 82k plague and 6.2k cs get the job done vs most characters.

[Phyrexial]

@ phrex: I remade my cs/plague zon (although she's missing some charms still) and having fun with her again =). No bow switch, just straight plague/cs with some light fury tossed in there. 82k plague and 6.2k cs get the job done vs most characters.
A friend of mine made a build like that but in order to have the bow switch but keep versatility he made a CtA bow. So he gets to keep his BO/BC and he still has a bow to finish off those 1 hp targets leftover from getting hit by Plague.

[remsy]

After this conversation, I went back home and had some duels with my zon in a public game.
I beat a grief charger a couple of times, beat a bowazon, beat a zealer, and beat a dude with smite. The necro stood by the entrance and stole gold when anyone died...

The smite guy beats me when he gets close enough to use smite but he doesn't since after I found out he had smite I just threw my javs at him and then ran around a tree when he tried to charge me. Easy strategy.

[Skribblle]

maybe you should duel better players? What level are you? Are the smiters and necros 90+? Your obviously beating noobs, or that wouldnt be happening.

[remsy]

First of all, I'm not in the 90s. Second of all, since when did you have to be in the 90s to not be a noob?
Third, who says only noobs lose to javazons?

You see, you try to make your points but you were so biased from the get go that I just don't give a d@mn anymore.

[Skribblle]

I don't lie... If javazons were beating me, i would be the first to admit they are strong. Im not being biased at all, just stating facts... well usually the better duelers are in the 90's... thats all i was getting at. I specifically challanged 2 level 96 javazons from my old clan to duel(mind you, these are some of the best javazons on east ladder) I dueled each 20 times. First zon i lost twice out of 20. I had to use prison 3 times. Second zon i lost 3 times out of 20, didn't even bother using prison(i really hate to do it, it's really cheap lol). These are all facts. You get to the 90's on your server, fight the top ranked necro's and ask for some duels. You'll understand why im acting like this...

[Phyrexial]

@remsy: What realm do you play on again?

[morotsjos]

Mix in FC/light fury and the fact that you're not a flawless teleporter and it's a very real situation. Again, you don't teleport constantly, you're running around and tossing fury/fcing most of the duel. When the opportunity presents itself, you use it. A BVC with arach teleports @ 11 frames and telezerks are an easy way to kill characters without maxblock. 12 or 11 frame teleCS achieves roughly the same thing except for the fact that CS > zerk in that it's unblockable and it has the chance to FC. Furthermore, chain telelocks present a problem as well; namelock tele + cs, if you miss then relock quickly with unsummon and rinse/repeat. Works wonders if your connection is good.
problem with telezerk/tele cs or delayed namelock in general is that it's useless if opponent is clued and teleports off minimap after each contact.

[DarkMousy]

Add in farcast to that mix, things get alot dicier. Zons like vita take a split second to namelock and LEGIT farcast. Others like fenix (spd-neko) use the hax, making it infinitely easier.

[morotsjos]

Add in farcast to that mix, things get alot dicier. Zons like vita take a split second to namelock and LEGIT farcast. Others like fenix (spd-neko) use the hax, making it infinitely easier.
definately. but it's still hard and very boring vs casters who think teleporting 782878374 screens away equals dueling...

[DarkMousy]

Agreed. However, teleporting super defensively against a CS zon with 55+% dodge isn't gonna ensure you a win. Add SM to the mix and it makes things even worse *laffs*

[morotsjos]

Agreed. However, teleporting super defensively against a CS zon with 55+% dodge isn't gonna ensure you a win. Add SM to the mix and it makes things even worse *laffs*
True, but still invisible spirits/blizz/fireballs are a pain in the ***. Hmpf.

[FattyMcGee]

This is only from my experience...

I dueled a lot with bone necros in 1.09/1.10, before i quit a couple years ago. I hate to say it, but (esp.in 1.10) javazons w/ cs were the least of my problems. good necs will usually have the 9frame tele bp, and with at least 2 frame faster tele than you, you'll never the chance to tele and poke before they tele away. Plus.....

cg + ibs fields + decrep + teeth fields.


theyr'e really easy. even the really good/powerful cs javazons; if you don't know they're javazons, they might catch you by surprise the first time (if you're watching out for GAs or something). after that, never let one get close enough to hurt you, while hurting them w/ ibs fields all the while.

I just got back into the game, and am currently building up wealth for my first pvp char again. what realm are you on remsy? I'd like to duel you in a couple weeks if you're up for it. with or without your eventual end-game gear.. i promise i won't have godly gear but it shouldn't be a problem.



-f

[Rauth]

The ONLY reason a javazon can be a top dueler is if they use teleport and farcast. Without those, too many classes simply crush you. Even With those, you will always suffer from the same problem as sorcs, +maxres or absorb or both.

[mastermind]

Well i find CSZons a bit hard on my BvC. This is one fight i dont go into unless i have 90 + res and a tg and some stacked res + Doom in most cases.

As Rauth said the good ones i have seen that know how to fastcast and tele can pose a high threat

Ive been overconfident a few times and got owned in like 2 hits due to being badly equiped to fighting them.

[Rabbitz]

You have a very one sided matchup vs smiters. NO competent smiter will lose to a cs zon in a series.

yeah, we know that, thats why the hybrid is invented duh :P

no serious, i mean i just 'nef'ed a Lycanders aim on switch so they'd be to busy, but if u can get the first hit...there dead

[blobswannabe]

This is only from my experience...

I dueled a lot with bone necros in 1.09/1.10, before i quit a couple years ago. I hate to say it, but (esp.in 1.10) javazons w/ cs were the least of my problems. good necs will usually have the 9frame tele bp, and with at least 2 frame faster tele than you, you'll never the chance to tele and poke before they tele away. Plus.....

cg + ibs fields + decrep + teeth fields.


theyr'e really easy. even the really good/powerful cs javazons; if you don't know they're javazons, they might catch you by surprise the first time (if you're watching out for GAs or something). after that, never let one get close enough to hurt you, while hurting them w/ ibs fields all the while.

I just got back into the game, and am currently building up wealth for my first pvp char again. what realm are you on remsy? I'd like to duel you in a couple weeks if you're up for it. with or without your eventual end-game gear.. i promise i won't have godly gear but it shouldn't be a problem.



-f

you are talking about pub noobs who just nl and charge at you in straight line. A good one will kill you unless you sorb or stack res.

[blobswannabe]

Well i find CSZons a bit hard on my BvC. This is one fight i dont go into unless i have 90 + res and a tg and some stacked res + Doom in most cases.

As Rauth said the good ones i have seen that know how to fastcast and tele can pose a high threat

Ive been overconfident a few times and got owned in like 2 hits due to being badly equiped to fighting them.

Try using triangle wws. It makes all the bolts pop out right behind you. THe only problem is the zon might not die before you run out of mana and you'll have to stop wwing and chug a pot.

[mastermind]

Try using triangle wws. It makes all the bolts pop out right behind you. THe only problem is the zon might not die before you run out of mana and you'll have to stop wwing and chug a pot.

Yeah that is a problem i have noticed as well. When doing the triangle WW im usally fine but when run out of mana and stop, i then get hit badly.

[FattyMcGee]

you are talking about pub noobs who just nl and charge at you in straight line. A good one will kill you unless you sorb or stack res.

how do you figure? :scratch:


i'm sorry, i just don't understand your response. i dont' see anything in my post that distinguishes fighting pub zons from higher quality private duels (and as is the subject of the thread, i'm talking about javazons only not hybrids). Could you tell me what i did to make it sound like that, because i certainly didn't mean to. I've dueled in my fair share of pubbies, but i've also dueled many good duelists who have javazons, and in my experience they are a far easier class to beat w/ necros than most any other well-built duel types.


If you still think i dueled in just pubbies, feel free to ask the older members of the druid or necro forum :rolleyes:


-f

[FattyMcGee]

Yeah that is a problem i have noticed as well. When doing the triangle WW im usally fine but when run out of mana and stop, i then get hit badly.

i haven't dueled really at all w/ ww barbs before (only real experience is LLD throwbarbs lol) but perhaps you could ww until you were fairly low on mana, and use the last bit after you finished yoru short whirl to tele away? I'm not sure whether or not the zon's hit recov + their jab attempt would be faster than your tele frame speed. their hit recov is pretty nice IIRC, so... ya maybe that wouldn't work. You usually have 10fpc on a BvC right? (40% fcr?)


-f

[no2fakeshakes]

y is there so much javazon hate =(

a barb that knows how to triangle > any javazon usually. otherwise they are ez

paladin...a bit tricky BUT if u stack enough fcr and ias you can summon a valk and tele cs and tele out.

necros i will say are a 50/50 chance. if decrep, slow missile away.

trappers... just pray when u are stunlocked or u can try tele cs. hard battle...

bowazons... are very easy as long as u have enough fcr

druids... HARD, u have to lightning fury the dogs/bear first.

sorcs... a bit harder than necro since they can spam more and avoid can screw you over...

as a 100fcr 70ias max resist javazon and i usually did most of the chasing.

for those that ibs allday or run away 2 screens everytime u land in their minimap...i dont even bother chasing



javazons are definetly not the best dueler...but they are pretty damn fun

hammerdins, druids, and BvCs are best all around duelers imo

[swiftrunner]

@no2fakeshakes, how do you attain 70 ias and 100 fcr at the same time?

[Rauth]

javazons are definetly not the best dueler...but they are pretty damn fun

hammerdins, druids, and BvCs are best all around duelers imo

Get d2 again ya bastard :/.

[no2fakeshakes]

@no2fakeshakes, how do you attain 70 ias and 100 fcr at the same time?

well, i have several setups, on the top of my head my setups were (i dont have d2exp installed and i moved onto wow)

Helm: Griffon (Cham)
Amulet: 2zon 15fcr + (resists over stats)
Chest: Enigma
Weapon: 40 ias javas. +skills are a bonus, replenish is a bonus too
Shield: Stormshield (15ias/15resistall)
Belt: Spidersash
Rings: 10 fcr rings x 2
Boots: Resist boots
Gloves: Trang

100 fcr 55 ias

whoops, no 70 ias =(. i am sorry about the incorrent info. But this was my build probably but to get the correct gear status, ask blobswannabe, dkay, or rauth.

[blobswannabe]

well, i have several setups, on the top of my head my setups were (i dont have d2exp installed and i moved onto wow)

Helm: Griffon (Cham)
Amulet: 2zon 15fcr + (resists over stats)
Chest: Enigma
Weapon: 40 ias javas. +skills are a bonus, replenish is a bonus too
Shield: Stormshield (15ias/15resistall)
Belt: Spidersash
Rings: 10 fcr rings x 2
Boots: Resist boots
Gloves: Trang

100 fcr 55 ias

whoops, no 70 ias =(. i am sorry about the incorrent info. But this was my build probably but to get the correct gear status, ask blobswannabe, dkay, or rauth.

ur build sucks i hate the fcr rings you are using. Plus you have low life and damage, need tstroke.

[Rauth]

ur build sucks i hate the fcr rings you are using. Plus you have low life and damage, need tstroke.
Rebuild if you think you can do better :smiley: .

I'm tempted to try it out myself. Never played any zons, but it looks like more fun than holding down GA and waiting for the slain message to come up.

[Skribblle]

well u forgot necros get bone prison.. slow missle really doesnt do much.. i alwayts laugh at zons when they use it lol, funny stuff. Necros should be on your top duelers list =/.

[TarnishedHope]

Slow missile actually does alot.

If a good javazon use it on a bone necro, you'll never get them. Usually, BP can only hold them for less than a sec, and is usually used to let spirit hit javazons. If you cast BP and you are standing too close to them, you are just asking to be LFed.

[remsy]

For those who asked what realm I'm on, it's useast ladder.

And slow missile does work. But I personally never use it as I feel it's too cheap. Same thing with necros that use prison. When I kill them I nk them afterwards. Same with any zon that uses slow missle.

[DarkMousy]

Any necro that bone prisons me while slow missiled gets farcasted to hell. End of story. I can tank alot more spirits than they can tank CS, if I can namelock for even a split second i have time to farcast. For them to actually sorb farcasted CS with all my little tricks (if they're using prison or decrep in the first place, well I'll SM/lower res wand/convic merc) they need to stack a hell of alot of res. Even if they teleport offscreen, farcast still sometimes hits if I finish the hotkeying before they teleport (which they never do as they're busy casting). Prison's kinda useless against even a decrepped zon if the necro is SM'd. Even then, decrep lasts maybe ~5 seconds on me or so before they have to recast (fade buff from treachery). When they recast, perfect chance for a farcast. If I'm not decrepped, telepoke after LFing gumby down tends to work well enough. I notice alot of stupid necros seem to think that they can outtank me if I'm not decrepped. Even if dodgelocked, I can usually CS twice or 3 times before I die, and with 10k cs that should be enough to do the trick. Good necros don't use prison or decrep, they set spirit traps and/or spear snipe. The duels actually take quite a long time.

[Phyrexial]

Slow Missiles isn't that big of a deal for a necro that knows what he's doing. Have you seen what happens when a Slow Missiled necro starts spamming Teeth? Against a zon that means dodge lock like hell from the cloud of Teeth and death soon after via Spear. In some matchups, SM might even be looked upon as an advantage.

Also, I would hardly consider Slow Missiles or Bone Prison cheap. They are effective tools that just need to be taken into consideration like any other skill. If you know the necro uses prison you must make sure you get used to their habits/tactics. For example, most necros will try to time prison when a BS train is close to you while you are running away. So, tele a bit sooner. I already explained SM, just start using your slow projectiles to set traps and try to bait your opponent in the case of a melee attacker. They won't want to get close to you if you are SM'ed so you can simply spam until SM wears off and then resume killing or you could use the aforementioned tactics.

Anyone that NKs over either of the above mentioned skills is just a whining. Prison is only broken against non-tele opponents and if you don't have tele in this dueling environment you were probably doomed from the start anyway simply by being horribly outclassed in gear.

[DarkMousy]

@ Phrex - exactly, but in that case, it all comes down to where you are in your slowed teeth/spear fields and at what time, and how defensive you're being. If I can get on even the corner tip of your screen while you're spamming, I can farcast once then teleport away. For some reason, alot of necros teleport once after farcasted and start spamming. Since I already have the namelock from farcast, I hotkey to unsummon to hold the lock or I left click then hotkey teleport and poke away. They rarely expect that and that gets most of them. Prison is a waste of time unless like you said, you use it while someone is running and there's a spirit train close to them. If I'm prisoned any other time, it's an easy chance to farcast and tele away. Although I admit that a good necro has at least a 60/40 against a good cs zon, the zons still do have a decent chance. If anyone is still wondering, I don't use an fc program, hotkeying it is easy enough already.

And yes, if you nk/cry because of slow missile or prison, that's pathetic.

[Phyrexial]

@DarkMousy: Prison shouldn't be the main concern of a javazon against a necro, Decrep should since the zon's attack rate is based on IAS. Between Decrep and a naturally slow tele the zon will be hardpressed to hit the necro even with farcast which from what I understand is not 100% reliable. If I am SM'ed, I will normally tele closer to the zon so my projectiles reach them faster as long as they are decreped. If it comes down to a tank match I put my money on the necro since between decrep and constant dodgelock very few hits will be getting through. Throw in the Clay Golem for kicks if you want, if he gets a hit on the zon it's going to be all uphill from there.

[blobswannabe]

Slow Missiles isn't that big of a deal for a necro that knows what he's doing. Have you seen what happens when a Slow Missiled necro starts spamming Teeth? Against a zon that means dodge lock like hell from the cloud of Teeth and death soon after via Spear. In some matchups, SM might even be looked upon as an advantage.

Also, I would hardly consider Slow Missiles or Bone Prison cheap. They are effective tools that just need to be taken into consideration like any other skill. If you know the necro uses prison you must make sure you get used to their habits/tactics. For example, most necros will try to time prison when a BS train is close to you while you are running away. So, tele a bit sooner. I already explained SM, just start using your slow projectiles to set traps and try to bait your opponent in the case of a melee attacker. They won't want to get close to you if you are SM'ed so you can simply spam until SM wears off and then resume killing or you could use the aforementioned tactics.

Anyone that NKs over either of the above mentioned skills is just a whining. Prison is only broken against non-tele opponents and if you don't have tele in this dueling environment you were probably doomed from the start anyway simply by being horribly outclassed in gear.

the same argument you made about sm and prison can be made for nking. Prison completely takes away the chance of non teler's chance of winning not to mention it causes horrible lag.

SM may not be that bad if you are a spammer nec but it hinders a necro's offensive abilities by a lot. It makes it impossible to chase people without tele locks. And tele locking is not the smartest thing to do against a lot of classes since you'll simply get tanked.

[blobswannabe]

Rebuild if you think you can do better :smiley: .

I'm tempted to try it out myself. Never played any zons, but it looks like more fun than holding down GA and waiting for the slain message to come up.

bowzons arent' that easy to use espeically in 1on1s. If you've ever played one in 1.10 you'd know. It's just they are easy to nk with and easy to get body while naked . ^^

[Imbecile]

@DarkMousy: Prison shouldn't be the main concern of a javazon against a necro, Decrep should since the zon's attack rate is based on IAS. Between Decrep and a naturally slow tele the zon will be hardpressed to hit the necro even with farcast which from what I understand is not 100% reliable. If I am SM'ed, I will normally tele closer to the zon so my projectiles reach them faster as long as they are decreped. If it comes down to a tank match I put my money on the necro since between decrep and constant dodgelock very few hits will be getting through. Throw in the Clay Golem for kicks if you want, if he gets a hit on the zon it's going to be all uphill from there.

Farcast is dependent on IAS, though it may not appear that way. So being slowed means less farcasting

[morotsjos]

SM may not be that bad if you are a spammer nec but it hinders a necro's offensive abilities by a lot.
which is why i find necs utterly useless in pubs.

[Phyrexial]

the same argument you made about sm and prison can be made for nking. Prison completely takes away the chance of non teler's chance of winning not to mention it causes horrible lag.
That is true depending on what your definition of "dueling" is. Personally, I believe one of the requirements for a battle in D2 to fall under the category of a "duel" is the presence of gear (unless otherwise agreed upon) and the consent of all participating parties. Anything else is "PKing" in my book. This is just my opinion, I don't expect anyone else to agree.

If you define dueling as simply killing another player, then you can certainly make that same argument for NKing.
SM may not be that bad if you are a spammer nec but it hinders a necro's offensive abilities by a lot. It makes it impossible to chase people without tele locks. And tele locking is not the smartest thing to do against a lot of classes since you'll simply get tanked.
This obviously depends on how you play. After seeing how you play, I can see how SM would be potentially crippling against certain builds. I personally play a more defensive necro style and prefer to bait my opponents into teleing/walking into my attacks more often then not so SM actually does benefit me in some cases. Still, I do agree with you. If I had a choice of having SM on or off I would choose off in 99% of cases.

Farcast is dependent on IAS, though it may not appear that way. So being slowed means less farcasting
I believe that is what I was stating, all of the zon's attacks are based on IAS including farcast.

[xtc]

Ive always wonderd how the #@$@ can a cs zon attack me from 2 screens away.. its like no one can run from them.. i dnt know if its a glitch. or auto aim.. but it sucks.

[Jerion]

Farcast was released publically.