View Full Version : My concerns about sages in PvP and why I use HOW > Oak
creamofthesoup
10-01-2006, 23:28
Dueling with my shaman, I've been asked many times why I would rather use HOW over Oak, when both are level 1 base.
A long time ago, I figured I'd have to choose between one and the other. Sure, oak gives you a massive life boost, while HOW gives you a pathetic damage boost, but from what I can tell, oak does nothing in 90% of duels.
Thinking honestly about this, how many builds will hit the druid without first killing his oak? If a fireball hits you and your oak, it just acts as if you had never cast it (oak dies, you take full damage). Same goes with pretty much any duel.
So basically I've come to the conclusion that the Oak's life bonus is essensially useless, since any time you would be taking damage, your oak is already dead (this is for caster druids, not shapeshifters). So you can exploit this against wind druids and such, as it is much much easier to FHR lock a druid and be confident about it when you realize that he has only 1/2 the hp that he thinks he does.
HOW on the other hand, tends to die just after my bear hits someone (I tele on top of them, bear hits them, they hit me) and thus actually gives it a real use.
So uh, my point is that oak sage is really alot more useless in pvp then most people think. Dont waste 20 points on it if theres something else thats actually worth it.
Speedwrath
11-01-2006, 10:23
Meh... LOL
I'm no expert, but if what you say is true, then NO spirit is worth investing more than 1 point in. :p Except maybe Spirit of Barbs. I guess a mini-Iron Maiden-like effect would be a teeny help.
the boss
11-01-2006, 12:37
Except maybe Spirit of Barbs. I guess a mini-Iron Maiden-like effect would be a teeny help.
Well, not if casters kills them first.
Well, im not expert either, but one thing i know is that HOW has more life than oak sage so...that's so suppose so. (Don't forget plus skills, if you have more spare points you can put HOW but iono if it helps MAJORLY though...)
Since maybe you might just put rest of points into firestorm after you're done.:confused:
After Bo it will be around 800-1000 life HOW spirit? would it be?
If you use beast, you can use oak for even MORE life...but i dont think its that great of a sacrifice for hoto...
Spirits are more useful in nightmare in melee duels since they spawn physical immune in nightmare.
Against any decent aoe attacker, any spirit will be near useless, so it doesn't matter which you use. For everyone else, a bit more life is better than a bit more damage. Key duels where they don't use aoe would be any melee char(some are decent enough to give you trouble, and a bear would just give them free leech anyway, so HoW would be useless) and zons(bear tanking more arrows is Good, since most zon will die in 1 hit anyway).
In general, life is nearly always better than more damage, particularly if they are equal amounts. 100 more life might make you tank an extra hit, or not go into fhr from something, but 100 more damage is nearly nothing after pvp penalty and dr. Oak also provides a massive life boost to your bear, which might make him tank that extra bone spear, or arrow, or whatever, letting him get an extra hit in before you have to recast.
Also, any good windy will recast his oak if it gets killed nearly instantly, and its So easy to use it as bait for people that like to kill the oak first.
I do agree that spirits are way crappier than they should be(if they just weren't so suicidal :(), but until they let us tele in wolf form, its all we got.
creamofthesoup
12-01-2006, 06:21
In general though, any real melee char is either going to get completely destroyed by fissure, or is using absorb.
So in a duel against a charger, HOW is going to be more helpful if they are sorbing, cuz 1 good hit and I'll be dead either way, whereas I need as much damage on the bear as I can for those lightning-fast drive-bys that I love doing. Course, if they don't absorb, I could beat them without a spirit or a bear -_-
Same problem with bowazons, except it doesnt matter if they sorb.
what does aoe stand for. I know this may be a stupid question yet I have not seen this before?
Sometimes you get hit and spirit does not. He moves a bit away at his own. He only dies right before you take the damage when u tele and get hit. Practise and being aware about when hes dead is the key to make profit of it, otherwise what you point is true.
In general though, any real melee char is either going to get completely destroyed by fissure, or is using absorb.
So in a duel against a charger, HOW is going to be more helpful if they are sorbing, cuz 1 good hit and I'll be dead either way, whereas I need as much damage on the bear as I can for those lightning-fast drive-bys that I love doing. Course, if they don't absorb, I could beat them without a spirit or a bear -_-
Same problem with bowazons, except it doesnt matter if they sorb.
A GOOD melee char(talking smiter here, or the very rare zealer) will have max res(spurs is all it would take, but there's plenty of other options without sorbing) to make your fire useles, and max dr to make your phys near useless, and 4k life to tank whatever is left. A lightning fast drive by is the Perfect opportunity for a smiter or zealer to shift-attack you, which Really messes you up. HoW will do nothing to make them die faster, since bear is just a Giant leech opportunity for them(well, smiter needs tap for that, but how many smiters Don't have tap), while oak Might save your life by 1 hit. Its all about the odds here. 100 life has a much better chance of letting you tank an extra hit, than 100 dmg does of killing them in one less. Not to mention oak benefits you And your summons, while HoW only benefits the bear.
Bowazons are different. Oak will let your bear tank more arrows, which will make it that much easier to get in range for a kill. Obviously, zons aren't much of a problem for, well, just about anyone(poor zons :( ), but still, a little more life would help more than a little more bear dmg, since you'll probably kill them with fissure/volcano/whatever anyway.
Don't get me wrong here, It is important to realize that BOTH of the lvl 1 spirits will be near useless, due to them being low lvl, And their inherent suicidal tendencies. So, when it comes right down to it, it shoudn't matter which one you use. :)
Oh yeah, and AoE means area of effect. Things like fireball, and blizzard.
slightly off subject but I will post here first.
Is a Ravenlore (the -20% part) pretty much useless in PVP since most people stack at least 30% deep, use hotspurs, etc. or does the -20% help a bit.
Example: Max Res 30% deep. Does this eliminate the Ravenlore's -20% or does the -20% still help a little?
Does hotspurs completely eliminate the -20%?
creamofthesoup
13-01-2006, 06:31
A GOOD melee char(talking smiter here, or the very rare zealer) will have max res(spurs is all it would take, but there's plenty of other options without sorbing) to make your fire useles, and max dr to make your phys near useless, and 4k life to tank whatever is left. A lightning fast drive by is the Perfect opportunity for a smiter or zealer to shift-attack you, which Really messes you up. HoW will do nothing to make them die faster, since bear is just a Giant leech opportunity for them(well, smiter needs tap for that, but how many smiters Don't have tap), while oak Might save your life by 1 hit. Its all about the odds here. 100 life has a much better chance of letting you tank an extra hit, than 100 dmg does of killing them in one less. Not to mention oak benefits you And your summons, while HoW only benefits the bear.
Bowazons are different. Oak will let your bear tank more arrows, which will make it that much easier to get in range for a kill. Obviously, zons aren't much of a problem for, well, just about anyone(poor zons :( ), but still, a little more life would help more than a little more bear dmg, since you'll probably kill them with fissure/volcano/whatever anyway.
Don't get me wrong here, It is important to realize that BOTH of the lvl 1 spirits will be near useless, due to them being low lvl, And their inherent suicidal tendencies. So, when it comes right down to it, it shoudn't matter which one you use. :)
Oh yeah, and AoE means area of effect. Things like fireball, and blizzard.
seriously mate, please don't waste my time by theorycrafting.
I have a shaman on both NL and L, and one from last ladder. I have dueled every imaginable build in private and pubby, and I know what works against what.
The only way a *zealot* is going to kill me is by slapping on absorb, desyncing, and trying to namelock/charge as madly as possible. Any not-quite-so skilled sorber easily falls prey to my bear, and any non-sorber falls prey to fissure. Thats just how it works.
Bearswipes are incredibly effecient once you get good with them (tele near a pally who is running, not walking or charging. If they walk or charge, fissures/volcanos eat them alive). Its fairly easy to tell when one is shiftzealing, and if he is, he dies to volcanos/fissures (volcanos only if they sorb anyway). So that leaves them with a doublepronged attack where they are on the downside whichever way they choose. And yarr, pretty much all zons are a joke in this matchup, so I'm not really concerned.
Valvolux
13-01-2006, 11:50
Yet as pointed out 100 times before a barb tele/stomps you into dust.
creamofthesoup
13-01-2006, 22:45
Yet as pointed out 100 times before a barb tele/stomps you into dust.
and yet I have yet to be tele/stomped to death even once so far. funny that.
Valvolux
14-01-2006, 00:33
and yet I have yet to be tele/stomped to death even once so far. funny that.
You must duel some horrible barbs then. I don't know why you keep making out that shamans are even in the top 10 char to duel with.
Slap on hotpurs and watch as a weak bear takes 10 mins to kill someone.
creamofthesoup
14-01-2006, 03:03
You must duel some horrible barbs then. I don't know why you keep making out that shamans are even in the top 10 char to duel with.
Slap on hotpurs and watch as a weak bear takes 10 mins to kill someone.
Slap on two wisps, a tgods, and some LO's, and a trapper won't hurt either.
Valvolux
14-01-2006, 04:33
Slap on two wisps, a tgods, and some LO's, and a trapper won't hurt either.
Exactly, thats why trappers make horrible duelers.
creamofthesoup
14-01-2006, 20:37
Exactly, thats why trappers make horrible duelers.
And yet volcano + aa will kill any barb eventually
I think this build is a great build for GM duels and where you can only use 1 abs item per element (Sorta like the old clan honor dueling). This build is not a cookie cutter build in any way like many of the builds out there that take no brains to play. I am starting to like this build for the pure enjoyment of the game again & I have been around since Diablo was a 4 lvl game (remember that - oh so long ago!). The shaman build is a great build for GM duels yet gets rough in BM duels where some chr's excell better in BM duels and absorbing, potting, etc.
Damn easties. :/
Nothing I said was theorycrafting. If you have never been shift-smited you have never dueled a decent smiter(they don't just sit there waiting for you to tele on them, but they Are ready to pound the crap outa you when you do). Regardless of what you think, a smiter with 95 fire res(no sorb needed), 50dr, and 4k life IS going to crush you. Feel free to do the math on your actual damage against 95 fire res, and see for yourself. As for desynch, it is a viable tactic, and DOES catch you offguard, no matter how good you are, so a zealer has as good a chance as any other pally vs you if played right.
Since I'm not on east, I invite you to post in the pvp forum asking for a decent smiter/barb on east to show you how to duel :).
Damn easties. :/
Nothing I said was theorycrafting. If you have never been shift-smited you have never dueled a decent smiter(they don't just sit there waiting for you to tele on them, but they Are ready to pound the crap outa you when you do). Regardless of what you think, a smiter with 95 fire res(no sorb needed), 50dr, and 4k life IS going to crush you. Feel free to do the math on your actual damage against 95 fire res, and see for yourself. As for desynch, it is a viable tactic, and DOES catch you offguard, no matter how good you are, so a zealer has as good a chance as any other pally vs you if played right.
Since I'm not on east, I invite you to post in the pvp forum asking for a decent smiter/barb on east to show you how to duel :).
LOL. Ya a good smiter using shift/smite will ruin the drive bye idea real fast. I do not know how any dueler who duels a lot with a shaman build thinks it will not. It is not us easties, lol, just maybe some that post in these forums.
Lol I really want to see a 6-8k life BvC getting killed by namelocked volcanos. That's just bull****. A volcano would do almost no dmg with 39% dr and 90% fire res (hotspurs+coa berber+enigma). As for the bear, dooms on switch>bear. there goes your idea of both minionstacking AND the bear doing any dmg. Then just a quick tele-leap-whirl, and we are done. Unless we are talking about a gosu max dr druid with 6k life and max blocking. Then it gets tricky, but yet again, coa berber+hotspurs+doom>shamans.
Valvolux
14-01-2006, 23:46
And yet volcano + aa will kill any barb eventually
Looks like ppl don't agree with you sorry mate, and i hope your meaning namelock not autoaim, cheating is a no no ;)
Even a high level volcano is pushing 1k damage (physical) and can be blocked, oh and don't forget the 4 second cast delay...who ya kidding? that isn't killing any good barb.
Oh and your tactics about just dodging a bvc, a 99fcr druid is tele'in at 11fps, while a barb only needs 20fcr to get the same tele speed. So guess who’s controlling the duel?
A grizzly is just life leech for a barb btw.
creamofthesoup
15-01-2006, 00:23
Thinking that the bear is just a leech is usually the easiest way to kill a barb. It's usually my #1 source of damage against barbs, besides fissure. Once you learn how to aim it, its very easy to hit someone in a way that won't get you hit.
In the meantime, I've dueled a bajillion shift smiters. In a GM duel, they have no chance. If they are shift/zealing, I can fissure. If they are charging me, I can fissure. If they are dodging fissures, they are the easiest target in the world for a wellplace bear-hit.
creamofthesoup
15-01-2006, 00:23
And I love how your argument is that you need absorb to kill me. :D
creamofthesoup
15-01-2006, 00:26
Lol I really want to see a 6-8k life BvC getting killed by namelocked volcanos. That's just bull****. A volcano would do almost no dmg with 39% dr and 90% fire res (hotspurs+coa berber+enigma). As for the bear, dooms on switch>bear. there goes your idea of both minionstacking AND the bear doing any dmg. Then just a quick tele-leap-whirl, and we are done. Unless we are talking about a gosu max dr druid with 6k life and max blocking. Then it gets tricky, but yet again, coa berber+hotspurs+doom>shamans.
Yes, because 2 weapon BvC barbs are perfect for dealing with my bear. Oh wait, thats suicide.
Whenever I duel a dual-wielder, I dont even bother with fissure, I just knock the crap out of him with my bear.
Valvolux
15-01-2006, 01:33
Hmm you tele slower, have worse fhr, less life, less damage. Even with just hotspurs (no absorb) on a barb is gonna walk over you.
The barb would have to stand still for 5 mins for a volcano + grizzly to kill him.
I've used a level 44 grizzly with fan against barbs and believe me it does nothing, unless your dueling ik barbs? lol
Grizzly just DOESN'T work vs high def/max block/Dr chars, just somein for em to heal off.
You can tell the same story of how great 'shamans' are, and how easy it is to beat everyone with one, but it just fiction, nothing more.
creamofthesoup
15-01-2006, 04:35
Hmm you tele slower, have worse fhr, less life, less damage. Even with just hotspurs (no absorb) on a barb is gonna walk over you.
The barb would have to stand still for 5 mins for a volcano + grizzly to kill him.
I've used a level 44 grizzly with fan against barbs and believe me it does nothing, unless your dueling ik barbs? lol
Grizzly just DOESN'T work vs high def/max block/Dr chars, just somein for em to heal off.
You can tell the same story of how great 'shamans' are, and how easy it is to beat everyone with one, but it just fiction, nothing more.
Funny, I've been dueling with a shaman for 1-2 years. You haven't. Which of us is more qualified to make such assertions?
Valvolux
15-01-2006, 06:48
Funny, I've been dueling with a shaman for 1-2 years. You haven't. Which of us is more qualified to make such assertions?
Its not that funny, i've played a few 'shamans' since 2003 (1.09), aswell as pure fire druids and pure summoners aswell as some less common builds of druids ie. shockbears, geddonbears. So please don't tell me what i have and have not done thanks.
Hmm you tele slower, have worse fhr, less life, less damage. Even with just hotspurs (no absorb) on a barb is gonna walk over you.
The barb would have to stand still for 5 mins for a volcano + grizzly to kill him.
I've used a level 44 grizzly with fan against barbs and believe me it does nothing, unless your dueling ik barbs? lol
Grizzly just DOESN'T work vs high def/max block/Dr chars, just somein for em to heal off.
You can tell the same story of how great 'shamans' are, and how easy it is to beat everyone with one, but it just fiction, nothing more.
Actually just wearing hotspurs will not help as much as everyone thinks against fissure/I have tested this. Test it first you will see. But with that being said it is possible to abs the fire damage with more then hotspurs and max block and Max PDR will be a thorn in a shaman's foot if the opponent is teleing and not running which every good PVP will do that understands how block works with physical damage, etc.
Oh, I want to say I still love this build, especially in GM duels where it shines. Heavy abs negating the fire damage part of the build makes it hard for just the physical damage aspect of this build to win by itself against any good dueler.
That said you do need more then just hotspurs to negate the fire damage.
creamofthesoup
15-01-2006, 20:10
Actually just wearing hotspurs will not help as much as everyone thinks against fissure/I have tested this. Test it first you will see. But with that being said it is possible to abs the fire damage with more then hotspurs and max block and Max PDR will be a thorn in a shaman's foot if the opponent is teleing and not running which every good PVP will do that understands how block works with physical damage, etc.
Oh, I want to say I still love this build, especially in GM duels where it shines. Heavy abs negating the fire damage part of the build makes it hard for just the physical damage aspect of this build to win by itself against any good dueler.
That said you do need more then just hotspurs to negate the fire damage.
Yarr, due to my ravenlore, and 99% of battle.nets unawareness that they have 30% less resists then they think they do, hotspurs alone almost never help against fissure. Even with 90% resist after everything, however, you are still looking at 3000/6/10 * 5 = 250 hp lost/second from just running through a fissure. Even against a 5k life barb, I can hit them 20 times before they hit me once. And when you WW through a fissure, it tends to hit more then 5 times anyway.
The really interesting part is that for the majority of builds, absorb will not help them at all.
Or really, no caster at all gets any help from sorbing you. Only melee builds/quasi melee such as WWsins or WW barbs, that would all be normally destroyed by fissure, get any advantage at all. And even then, they arent impossible to kill. Hell, if all they have are spurs on, you can still kill them with fissures anyway.
hotspurs+dwarf makes things really harder. Chances are you will lose.
Anyway i agree in the part it is good on GM duels.
creamofthesoup
15-01-2006, 21:17
if its a WW barb with hotspurs/2x dwarf/rising sun, I'll just ignore him.
Yarr, due to my ravenlore, and 99% of battle.nets unawareness that they have 30% less resists then they think they do, hotspurs alone almost never help against fissure. Even with 90% resist after everything, however, you are still looking at 3000/6/10 * 5 = 250 hp lost/second from just running through a fissure. Even against a 5k life barb, I can hit them 20 times before they hit me once. And when you WW through a fissure, it tends to hit more then 5 times anyway.
The really interesting part is that for the majority of builds, absorb will not help them at all.
Or really, no caster at all gets any help from sorbing you. Only melee builds/quasi melee such as WWsins or WW barbs, that would all be normally destroyed by fissure, get any advantage at all. And even then, they arent impossible to kill. Hell, if all they have are spurs on, you can still kill them with fissures anyway.
with Ravenlore I agree and I also agree that it is hard to absorb the fire but some melee builds that want to can and will in pub games. Being a shaman means you have to accept that as part of the dueling arena.
In GM duels this chr really rocks and that is why I like it along with the fact it is not the average cheesy build/cookie cutter no brainer.
?????? do you think a facet in ravenlore is worth the extra -5% or do you think stacking resists with a 15/7 jewel is better all around. If I ever can craft a 19% +2 ammy it would rock along with a 20/20 shield when needed against sorbers in pubs (yet trying to craft an ammy like that may take years lol).
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