A Possible New BvB Setup?

[Ce Olba]

Today, i was really bored, so i decided to mess around with my hero editor. I made a barb, with the following stats:

lvl 99

str 118
dex 136
vita 326

axe mastery 20
shout 20
iron skin 20
bo 20
ww 20
inc stamina 1
nat res 1

He's gear is:

Fury Ba
Eth Sacred Armor Duress
Stormshield with 40/9 (ed/str)
Guillaume's with 40/9 (ed/str)
Verdungo
Perf Rends
Perf, Upg Gores
Angelics

37x 32020's
Perf torch
Perf anni

He prebuffs with 2x +3 wc daggers and enigma. He's stats after bo:

Def: 33760
Ar 18542 (27330 with enchant from demon limb)
life: 5939
Avg dmg 1723 (146.455 after PvP penalty and 50% DR)

With this setup, i got:

63% deadly strike
75% crushing blow
100% open wounds
22% critical strike
effective dmg increase: 65.45%
dmg from ow: 612.5
effective crushing blow dmg to a 6k life opponent: 225

With this in mind, i decided to calculate the dmg:

146.455*1.6622=243.43
243.43+450+612.5=1305

The average dmg is taken from the LCS, though. I was wondering, if this really is correct, or have i screwed up? Since this would be a really excellent setup for a BvB.

Anyone want to call Hal here?

[morotsjos]

Today, i was really bored, so i decided to mess around with my hero editor. I made a barb, with the following stats:

lvl 99

str 118
dex 136
vita 326

axe mastery 20
shout 20
iron skin 20
bo 20
ww 20
inc stamina 1
nat res 1

He's gear is:

Fury Ba
Eth Sacred Armor Duress
Stormshield with 40/9 (ed/str)
Guillaume's with 40/9 (ed/str)
Verdungo
Perf Rends
Perf, Upg Gores
Angelics

37x 32020's
Perf torch
Perf anni

He prebuffs with 2x +3 wc daggers and enigma. He's stats after bo:

Def: 33760
Ar 18542 (27330 with enchant from demon limb)
life: 5939
Avg dmg 1723 (146.455 after PvP penalty and 50% DR)

With this setup, i got:

63% deadly strike
75% crushing blow
100% open wounds
22% critical strike
effective dmg increase: 65.45%
dmg from ow: 612.5
effective crushing blow dmg to a 6k life opponent: 225

With this in mind, i decided to calculate the dmg:

146.455*1.6622=243.43
243.43+450+612.5=1305

The average dmg is taken from the LCS, though. I was wondering, if this really is correct, or have i screwed up? Since this would be a really excellent setup for a BvB.

Anyone want to call Hal here?
Ow-barbs should have as much frw as possible since they are hit-and-run chars. Hence at least 1 pt in increased speed.
Personally I'd use eth stone and dracs and probably arreats too instead of this. Ar/life scs are better than 32020:s in bvb. 9 dex on jewels is much more useful than 9 str for blockbarbs.
Also, how do you calculate chance for double damage? 65.45% seems very low with 63% deadly strike...

If you are interested we could try some different builds on open vs each other. I'm curious how all-dmg-barbs with grief+fort do vs ow-barbs...

[Ce Olba]

Ow-barbs should have as much frw as possible since they are hit-and-run chars. Hence at least 1 pt in increased speed.
Personally I'd use eth stone and dracs and probably arreats too instead of this. Ar/life scs are better than 32020:s in bvb. 9 dex on jewels is much more useful than 9 str for blockbarbs.
Also, how do you calculate chance for double damage? 65.45% seems very low with 63% deadly strike...

If you are interested we could try some different builds on open vs each other. I'm curious how all-dmg-barbs with grief+fort do vs ow-barbs...

Well, i actually made this barb for my friend, and he wanted ed/str jewels. And this char has almost all the possible things i could try: Eth Stone, Fortitude, Enigma, Eth Duress, Fury, Eth Botd Ba, Grief Ba.

I must've written the double dmg wrong. Isn't the formulae (chance of critical strike triggering+chance of deadly strike triggering)*chance of critical NOT triggering? This would give me 0.23+0.63=0.86*0.77=0.6622~66.22%.

I wasn't actually building this character after OW, i was just trying to get the best dmg output, as my friend said that Stone is useless because then your dmg sucks.

[morotsjos]

Well, i actually made this barb for my friend, and he wanted ed/str jewels. And this char has almost all the possible things i could try: Eth Stone, Fortitude, Enigma, Eth Duress, Fury, Eth Botd Ba, Grief Ba.

I must've written the double dmg wrong. Isn't the formulae (chance of critical strike triggering+chance of deadly strike triggering)*chance of critical NOT triggering? This would give me 0.23+0.63=0.86*0.77=0.6622~66.22%.

I wasn't actually building this character after OW, i was just trying to get the best dmg output, as my friend said that Stone is useless because then your dmg sucks.
I see.
Imo stone >>> duress with the new ethbug. Your physical damage is going to suck anyway so why bother? =)

Double damage = cs+ds*(1-cs/100) AFAIK...

[Ce Olba]

I see.
Imo stone >>> duress with the new ethbug. Your physical damage is going to suck anyway so why bother? =)

Double damage = cs+ds*(1-cs/100) AFAIK...

This would give me a rather high dmg increase, 0.23+0.63*(1- 0.23/100)=0.23+0.63*0.9977=0.86*0.9977=0.858022~85.8%. (which would be exactly the same as i have with my BvC on closed)

So, what is this "new" ethbug? All i've heard is some rumor about if u socketed some armor with a Zod back in 1.09 and unsocketed it, the indestructable remained, and thus u could create very powerful ethereal armor and weapons, such as the ethbug fury and the ethbug stone, which can reach up to 3750 defense in a eth perf sacred armor i believe.

[morotsjos]

This would give me a rather high dmg increase, 0.23+0.63*(1- 0.23/100)=0.23+0.63*0.9977=0.86*0.9977=0.858022~85.8%. (which would be exactly the same as i have with my BvC on closed)

So, what is this "new" ethbug? All i've heard is some rumor about if u socketed some armor with a Zod back in 1.09 and unsocketed it, the indestructable remained, and thus u could create very powerful ethereal armor and weapons, such as the ethbug fury and the ethbug stone, which can reach up to 3750 defense in a eth perf sacred armor i believe.
My fault, I meant 0.23+0.63*(1-0.23), sorry...

Ethbug is new in 1.11, it's explained in the trade forum. Basically when you socked an ethereal item with the cube formula the ethbonus becomes 1.25 instead of 0.5 as it should... 5k def stones aren't uncommon.

[Ce Olba]

My fault, I meant 0.23+0.63*(1-0.23), sorry...

Ethbug is new in 1.11, it's explained in the trade forum. Basically when you socked an ethereal item with the cube formula the ethbonus becomes 1.25 instead of 0.5 as it should... 5k def stones aren't uncommon.

oh, that one. I wasn't totally sure on how it worked. I guess that i'll now add some more defense to my paladins exile :P so u mean that the modifier changesfrom 1.5 to 2.25? :xmas22:

Also, that's just what i meant, that 1-0.23 is the "chance of cs NOT triggering", which gives us a 0.77 modifier, thus we end up with 0.6622 which is ~66.22%.

[morotsjos]

oh, that one. I wasn't totally sure on how it worked. I guess that i'll now add some more defense to my paladins exile :P so u mean that the modifier changesfrom 1.5 to 2.25? :xmas22:

Also, that's just what i meant, that 1-0.23 is the "chance of cs NOT triggering", which gives us a 0.77 modifier, thus we end up with 0.6622 which is ~66.22%.
Except that I get 71.51% chance when I calculate it ^^

And yes, gogo 1600 def exile...

[Ce Olba]

Except that I get 71.51% chance when I calculate it ^^

And yes, gogo 1600 def exile...

Yea, because we calculate it in different orders, u calculate the 0.63*0.77 and after that add 0.23, but i add together the 0.23 and 0.63 and then multiply that with 0.77. Well, i'm not totally sure.

But in this calculation, it makes no huge difference, actually it's like 10 more or less dmg.

[morotsjos]

Yea, because we calculate it in different orders, u calculate the 0.63*0.77 and after that add 0.23, but i add together the 0.23 and 0.63 and then multiply that with 0.77. Well, i'm not totally sure.

But in this calculation, it makes no huge difference, actually it's like 10 more or less dmg.
Multiplication/division >>>>> addition/subtraction ;D

[Ce Olba]

Multiplication/division >>>>> addition/subtraction ;D

I know that , i just thought that the actual formulae was (cs+ds)*(1-cs), where u would first calculate cs+ds and 1-cs, and then add them together.

[morotsjos]

I know that , i just thought that the actual formulae was (cs+ds)*(1-cs), where u would first calculate cs+ds and 1-cs, and then add them together.
Nah, my fault again. Formula is:
CHANCE OF DOUBLE DMG = CS + (DS/100)*(100-CS)

[Ce Olba]

Nah, my fault again. Formula is:
CHANCE OF DOUBLE DMG = CS + (DS/100)*(100-CS)

So u were correct all of the time. But that formula bugs me a little, as it's /100, which means that u should calculate the actual percents times 100. I think someone should fix that so that /100 is /1, as a percent is 1/100, and is marked 0.01.

[cassurai]

Why increased stamina?

Not enough poison. You need at least 1k poison damage over a long duration to get OW to really shine, so use some 313 PDSCs instead of 3/20/20s.

Pure Grief/Fort damage Barbs will definitely beat you. I have one with 22K AR without enchant and 34K defense.

If pure OW/Poison I'd go for a zero physical damage custom-made berserker axe, such as "ShaelShaelUmUmBerBer", or something. Then use Eth Stone. You can get 45K-50K defense that way. Opponents will have no mana to WW after the first 10 or so exchanges (and you'll hardly get hurt from those with your huge defense) because you do no physical damage and Damage Taken Goes To Mana does not work. That's when you allow huge OW, huge poison, and big CB kick in and do the simple work.

I love either pure damage or pure OW/Poison with zero damage, not a mix. But it's just me.

[morotsjos]

Why increased stamina?

Not enough poison. You need at least 1k poison damage over a long duration to get OW to really shine, so use some 313 PDSCs instead of 3/20/20s.

Pure Grief/Fort damage Barbs will definitely beat you. I have one with 22K AR without enchant and 34K defense.

If pure OW/Poison I'd go for a zero physical damage custom-made berserker axe, such as "ShaelShaelUmUmBerBer", or something. Then use Eth Stone. You can get 45K-50K defense that way. Opponents will have no mana to WW after the first 10 or so exchanges (and you'll hardly get hurt from those with your huge defense) because you do no physical damage and Damage Taken Goes To Mana does not work. That's when you allow huge OW, huge poison, and big CB kick in and do the simple work.

I love either pure damage or pure OW/Poison with zero damage, not a mix. But it's just me.
Poison has nothing to do with open wounds and is easily negated. Terrible waste of inventory space that could contain life charms...

[Halciet]

Sorry for the delay; it's been a busy couple of days, but everyone seems to have worked out your issues regardless :)

One thing though - you need a point of battle command. Even if it means taking one point away from something else, it means +1 to every skill you have.

-Hal

[mastermind]

Why increased stamina?

Not enough poison. You need at least 1k poison damage over a long duration to get OW to really shine, so use some 313 PDSCs instead of 3/20/20s.

Pure Grief/Fort damage Barbs will definitely beat you. I have one with 22K AR without enchant and 34K defense.

If pure OW/Poison I'd go for a zero physical damage custom-made berserker axe, such as "ShaelShaelUmUmBerBer", or something. Then use Eth Stone. You can get 45K-50K defense that way. Opponents will have no mana to WW after the first 10 or so exchanges (and you'll hardly get hurt from those with your huge defense) because you do no physical damage and Damage Taken Goes To Mana does not work. That's when you allow huge OW, huge poison, and big CB kick in and do the simple work.

I love either pure damage or pure OW/Poison with zero damage, not a mix. But it's just me.

hmm i have seen a setup like that in bvb it can work but the only problem is if the person knows to prebuff on antidotes before the duel the it will render the psn near useless

[cassurai]

Poison has nothing to do with open wounds and is easily negated. Terrible waste of inventory space that could contain life charms...

Not true at all. With Grief which lowers poison resist by a good 25% and the Anya bug taking another 30 away, most Barbs end up with very little Hell Poison Resists left (like 40-50). Also, I never said Poison has technically anything to do with OW, but it compliments OW (you can almost call it "increasing OW damage per second") really well if you're that sort of life drainer BvB-er.

For the King of Kings BvB Tourney I used about 1.2k total poison and everyone used so much poison that I had to use 2x 11 Poison Resist / 19 Life SCs to keep my resist up. Poison is great in that it prevents your opponents from being defensive. Because of poison, they have no choice but to WW offensively after getting hit which is to your advantage (you get to WW backwards etc).


hmm i have seen a setup like that in bvb it can work but the only problem is if the person knows to prebuff on antidotes before the duel the it will render the psn near useless


Not in a GM duel or a BvB tournament such as KoK. :)

[morotsjos]

Not true at all. With Grief which lowers poison resist by a good 25% and the Anya bug taking another 30 away, most Barbs end up with very little Hell Poison Resists left (like 40-50). Also, I never said Poison has technically anything to do with OW, but it compliments OW (you can almost call it "increasing OW damage per second") really well if you're that sort of life drainer BvB-er.

For the King of Kings BvB Tourney I used about 1.2k total poison and everyone used so much poison that I had to use 2x 11 Poison Resist / 19 Life SCs to keep my resist up. Poison is great in that it prevents your opponents from being defensive. Because of poison, they have no choice but to WW offensively after getting hit which is to your advantage (you get to WW backwards etc).

Sorry, I interpreted "You need at least 1k poison damage over a long duration to get OW to really shine" as you thought poison was somehow connected with ow.

BM is arbitrary but I guess if you duel in a league/tourney that prevents things like antidote-prebuf poison would be more effective. Thats outside my concern though since I despite pesky rules =)
Still, with 75% res (rejoin if you die ^^), your 1.2k poison is lowered to 100 damage. Thats less than 10 dmg/second, personally I dont think that's much vs 6k life chars...

How much poison damage in total is allowed in KoK btw? It feels like you could stack up on poison and ridicule pure bvb:ers without natural res...

[cassurai]

Sorry, I interpreted "You need at least 1k poison damage over a long duration to get OW to really shine" as you thought poison was somehow connected with ow.

BM is arbitrary but I guess if you duel in a league/tourney that prevents things like antidote-prebuf poison would be more effective. Thats outside my concern though since I despite pesky rules =)
Still, with 75% res (rejoin if you die ^^), your 1.2k poison is lowered to 100 damage. Thats less than 10 dmg/second, personally I dont think that's much vs 6k life chars...

How much poison damage in total is allowed in KoK btw? It feels like you could stack up on poison and ridicule pure bvb:ers without natural res...

BvB-ers have 1 point in natural resist. Also they don't have 6K life. They have about 5K. This is due to using AR/Life and Mastery/Life GCs rather than the 37x SCs that BvC-ers use.

I actually have 92% poison resist if I die and rejoin, and 62% if I don't. Either way, I can still feel the life draining down when I fight Grief users with -25% Poison Resist on their weapon, worse still if OW also comes into effect in a lucky hit. Prevents you from being offensive.

I also use a few mana/life SCs to prevent conc duels because of where I duel, and I feel it's only fair that way or else BvB would be very little skill involved and mostly just about wealth (27x 3/20/20s wtfhax), hence leaving games every death is a no-no. With additional elements such as poison, poison resist, and mana to consider, more effort and experience is needed to make your character shine.

[morotsjos]

BvB-ers have 1 point in natural resist. Also they don't have 6K life. They have about 5K. This is due to using AR/Life and Mastery/Life GCs rather than the 37x SCs that BvC-ers use.

I actually have 92% poison resist if I die and rejoin, and 62% if I don't. Either way, I can still feel the life draining down when I fight Grief users with -25% Poison Resist on their weapon, worse still if OW also comes into effect in a lucky hit. Prevents you from being offensive.

I also use a few mana/life SCs to prevent conc duels because of where I duel, and I feel it's only fair that way or else BvB would be very little skill involved and mostly just about wealth (27x 3/20/20s wtfhax), hence leaving games every death is a no-no. With additional elements such as poison, poison resist, and mana to consider, more effort and experience is needed to make your character shine.
Why dont make an ow/mass-psn-build and play very defensive instead of offensive physical damage builds then? Also, why not use ar/life scs instead of those charms? Especially mastery gcs...

[Ce Olba]

BvB-ers have 1 point in natural resist. Also they don't have 6K life. They have about 5K. This is due to using AR/Life and Mastery/Life GCs rather than the 37x SCs that BvC-ers use.


Lol i've never seen a good BvB who would rather use Mastery/Life GCs rather than 32020's or 20/36's. And the less life than BvC is due to huge points in str and dex. But of course u will see people who have a very good stats plan who can actually hit 6k life. But that is pretty rare.

Someone put Amplify Dmg on Morotsjos plz... :xmas16:

Also, having a buttload of 32020's is nothing out of order. Many rich people have those, except that most rich people make Smiters or Sorcs. I've had a few damn good laughs when smiters have claimed how Btals is the best armor for any melee. Some have even asked why I do not have a Btals and why i whine about one.

As for what comes to conc duels, it's like smite duels: The one that has more frw, gets the namelock first, and has more range, wins. I tell u i've lost SO many smite v smite duels due to bad timing (no namelock charge at a shift-smiting smiter).

Also, there is no reason depending on Pure Ow, when u can have both (Fury+Forti). And depending on pure Ow with some poor weapon like ShaelShaelUmUmBerBer Ba is just stupid, as it doesn't give u 100% ow, unless u have 25% ow gloves.

But we are going way too off-topic here. Who cares? But the original idea was really to see if the setup in the first post could really be as godly as it seemed. I guess it can, and even more (as i calculated the effective dmg increase wrong)

[cassurai]

Lol i've never seen a good BvB who would rather use Mastery/Life GCs rather than 32020's or 20/36's. And the less life than BvC is due to huge points in str and dex. But of course u will see people who have a very good stats plan who can actually hit 6k life. But that is pretty rare.

Someone put Amplify Dmg on Morotsjos plz... :xmas16:

Also, having a buttload of 32020's is nothing out of order. Many rich people have those, except that most rich people make Smiters or Sorcs. I've had a few damn good laughs when smiters have claimed how Btals is the best armor for any melee. Some have even asked why I do not have a Btals and why i whine about one.

As for what comes to conc duels, it's like smite duels: The one that has more frw, gets the namelock first, and has more range, wins. I tell u i've lost SO many smite v smite duels due to bad timing (no namelock charge at a shift-smiting smiter).

Also, there is no reason depending on Pure Ow, when u can have both (Fury+Forti). And depending on pure Ow with some poor weapon like ShaelShaelUmUmBerBer Ba is just stupid, as it doesn't give u 100% ow, unless u have 25% ow gloves.

But we are going way too off-topic here. Who cares? But the original idea was really to see if the setup in the first post could really be as godly as it seemed. I guess it can, and even more (as i calculated the effective dmg increase wrong)

First and foremost, I duel on Ladder, without any hacked items, and no dupes other than runes. 3/20/20s don't exist.

Even so, IMO 3/20/20s aren't as good as AR/Lifers or Mastery Lifers for BvB since AR > Damage in BvB. Heard of okamichan13? Winner of KoK2 and now the organiser of the tournament itself. He uses only Mastery Lifers I thik. A good AR GC gives about 1.2K AR and a Mastery GC gives about 600 AR and 600 defense. Tested it myself. Basically find a combination of AR/Lifers and Mastery/Lifers and aim for 21K AR (without enchant) and 30K defense (without chilling armor) with Grief/Fort which is what most of us on Ladder use.

You're not going to win good BvBs with just 18K AR and 25K defense, no matter how much more life and damage you have from using 3/20/20s instead of AR/Lifers and Mastery/Lifers.

Regarding Conc. duels, you wanna try running out of mana and Concentrate a WW user? You'll get owned pretty bad for that instant until DTM kicks in, and that instant can mean death.

And you're TOTALLY wrong regarding pure OW. Fury + Fort will get owned by an offensive Grief + Fort user (your OW isn't going to kill faster than his physical damage) hands down, given the same skill. A Custom OW Zerker + Eth Stone/Prudence will stand a good chance against an unwary Grief + Fort user (without Mana charms) because the moment he runs out of mana, there's no way he can regain it as DTM doesn't work with so little physical damage dealt by the OW barb. As a result he'll have to Concentrate for the ENTIRE rest of the duel against a 45-50K defense WW opponent with full OW, which is as good as GFG. Why use Fury and give them their mana when you're built for OW anyway?

Of course, I know nothing about NL BvB, so if things like BTals and Mana Pots are the norm, I rest my case completely.


EDIT:

ShaelShaelUmUmBerBer + Eth Toothrow + Rends + Gore Riders = 100 OW 65 CB

No physical damage + HUGE (e.g 45K) defense + 100 OW 65 CB = No Mana For Opponent At All = Not stupid.


You can also try ShaelShaelUmUmUmUm + Eth Stone/Prudence + Eth Treks. This one gives 100 OW and just 10 CB from rends, but even more MONSTER defense, like 50-55 K I believe, with a good base EBugged Armor

[morotsjos]

I assume you mean that masteries give 600 def/ar.
Anyway, wouldn't scs with 30+ar and 20 life still be better than 4x life mastery skillers? A bit lower def but more ar and more life. Have you tested?

Also, a pure ow/psn build with close to zero physical damage (i.e. eth stone and your nice suggested zerker) would force grief-barbs to stack up on mana charms. Also, with more or equal speed they should be able to avoid grief-barbs by just running and whirling away no? Unless there's a rule against weak defensive play? Otherwise this build should have a nice advantage with more def and better chance to hit if he uses shaelshaelumumetheth zerker...

[cassurai]

I assume you mean that masteries give 600 def/ar.
Anyway, wouldn't scs with 30+ar and 20 life still be better than 4x life mastery skillers? A bit lower def but more ar and more life. Have you tested?

Also, a pure ow/psn build with close to zero physical damage (i.e. eth stone and your nice suggested zerker) would force grief-barbs to stack up on mana charms. Also, with more or equal speed they should be able to avoid grief-barbs by just running and whirling away no? Unless there's a rule against weak defensive play? Otherwise this build should have a nice advantage with more def and better chance to hit if he uses shaelshaelumumetheth zerker...


Hehe. Oops. I meant 600 and 600 yes. In fact I just checked the numbers, it's more like 600 AR for AR/Life GC and 300 AR 300 Def for Mastery/Life GC, but the idea is the same. Personally I use just one of those (Mastery with 39 Life), the rest being 125+/35+ GCs, and one column for 20/15 Torch and 19/19 Anni. My bottom row changes depends on the type of BvB I duel, but usually consists of 2x 11 PR 19 Lifers, 2x 100 PD 19 Lifers, 3x 313 PDSCs, and 3x 32+/18+ AR Lifers. I keep more AR Lifers in stash for Barbs that don't use Poison, and also have 3x Mana Life SCs and one big fat Mana Life GC to handle the sort of OW Barb I mentioned in my previous post (custom axe users that sucks mana so fast).

This is on Ladder. I don't know how it is on NL but I don't suppose there are no hacked charms save for duped 3/20/20s and 36/20s. Anyway, I've tested and with my setup I have about 21.1K AR and 29.6K defense (without enchant and CA of course), 5.1K Life. A good combination from my experiences. Like I said, any combination of Mastery/Life and AR/Life is fine as long as you hit about 21K AR and 30K defense. Varies from people to people. Oh, and I'm a Grief + Fort Barb btw. I don't use that Custom Axe but I know a few very good duellers who have mastered it. If you're those kind of OW barb I would assume Mastery/Life would be better than AR/Life since defense is even more important than AR (you hit once and then go on total defense mode).

Regarding having an entire stash of AR/Life SCs instead of GCs, that would mean a lot less AR and a bit more Life. I rate importance in BvB this way:

DR > Block > AR > Defense > Life > Damage (for damage barbs)
DR > Block > Defense > AR > Life > Damage (for OW barbs)

Hence, you'd rather want AR/Life GCs than SCs, at least for the top 3 rows. If you're on NL dupeland then a row of 132/45 GCs would be ideal. Ladder users don't get that sort of luxury of perfection.

There's a rule against running away in KOK, but it's okay to stay stationary. So just doing that is fine. When the Grief + Fort barb sees his life bulb draining so fast (100 OW, 2K poison over a long duration), the less experienced ones will panic and WW straight at you to finish you before their mana runs out, forgetting your huge defense. Just WW in a 45 degree angle from his direction of approach and you should be able to dodge it and even score another hit. The point is to get his mana bulb dry while OW does the work.

Good suggestion about 2x Eths. Haven't tried it yet though.

[RetroStar]

I always thought 36/20 are better than 32020s. That's why I use them on my baba.