summoner question

[jimmyjones]

Can decked out summoners (enigma, beast etc.) kill in pvm as well as hammerdins in 8 player games? Do they have any problems? Also, would you use hoto or aokl? Are PIs a problem?

[Evrae Altana]

Decked out summoners can kill very well.
I would use AOKL. It gives more benefits to your summons than HOTO.
For PIs, Amp can take care of that. If it doesn't, you can always just ditch the monster.

[cynicalcat1]

if you run into a pi call up a few mages.with amp mages can take down a pi pretty quickly.

[Mad Mantis]

Also, would you use hoto or aokl? Are PIs a problem?

Pre-buff with AoKL and then use the HotO if you like, or try to get something better.

Amp breaks most PI's. For those that can't be broken you have LR to combine with CE, Mages and Elemental Revives.

[javasirc]

i recently made a summoner, currently lvl 85. uses beast as weapon, homu for shield (resistance). act 2 nightmare offensive merc (might aura) uses pride for concentration. it does very well, except in act 4 chaos sancuary, the knight's iron maiden takes my merc fast, along with many of my melee skeletons. other than that, i can take on anything, usually faster than a hammerdin.
and because of all the "meat shields" a summoner has, u can usually get to places without taking a hit. i can tele to baal without a single hit.

in pvp, everyone is faily easy, except smiters/zealots. if they cast life tap, its hard to win. also their high defense is a problem against the melee skeletons.

i maxed: skeleton, mage, mastery, amp damage (for the extreme range)
due to the extra skills leftover, i put 1 in every curse, and 1 in the rest of the summons, 0 in pnb. also to keep the skeletons alive, i cast life tap every few minutes. i can do andy-baal without losing a single skeleton.

so to sum it up, i think summoners are the most powerful class, pvp and pvm.

[Mad Mantis]

the knight's iron maiden takes my merc fast

Take your Merc's weapon away. He'll live longer as will your Skellies. Give him some CB on his other gear to make for the loss of damage.

[elmek]

due to the extra skills leftover, i put 1 in every curse, and 1 in the rest of the summons, 0 in pnb

Does it mean that you didn't put a single point in CE? It extremely speeds up killing of monsters, so perhaps it's a good idea to drop a point there. Using CE you'll be able to clear CS much more faster too.

[jag]

LOL take away mercs weapon like he is a child being disciplined....

Never thought of that -- with gilliams and duress he can still deal cb -- wow didnt know that....

I have lvl 91 summoner -- with a ton of summon gcs, 2 bul kathos, +3 summon ammy, hoto, enigma, homoculous, shako, arach, and marrows -- 17 skels, 15 mages - 27 revives (only 1 hard point!!!) - i kill mephy faster than my meteor/orb sorc - plus i can kill the council with little fear - diablo and baal are a piece of cake.

Iron maiden kills a few skells -- snakes and nihlathak are about the only other thing that that really hurt them (besides ubers :) ).

My merc dies more often than my skels lol

By far the most effective tactic is using the teleport to focus the army on particular monsters or regrouping them when they spread out to much or get stuck around corners/in doorways. Take care of them too -- when alot are poisoned, its worth the time to pop back to town to cure them at malah or whoever.

Beast is my next investment -- not a priority right now for me since i am having no trouble now :)

--OMG you must get 1 point in CE - that is by far the fastest killer in the game!!! What other skill can you use 1-3 times and kill whole packs of monsters at a time anywhere in hell???

[jimmyjones]

A few more questions:
1. Around how much fcr would you need to tele decently in pvm, esp in wsk?
2. I heard 48 is the same as a sorc's 63 so is 48 enough?
3. Some item suggestions for good fcr in pvm, pvp.
4. Do maxed mages do decent dmg without using lower resist?
5. Is it better to max CE or will ~ 10+ skill be enough?

[Das Adin]

1. Around how much fcr would you need to tele decently in pvm, esp in wsk?
I belive I have 30fcr on my summoner. Just Arm and Arach. This gets me to 12 frames and I feel it is enough. This is faster than my skeletons swing so more fcr will not help in killing.
2. I heard 48 is the same as a sorc's 63 so is 48 enough?
48fcr for a necro = 11 frames
20fcr for a sorc = 11 frames
3. Some item suggestions for good fcr in pvm, pvp.
Arm of King Leoric and Arachnid Mesh should be enough.
4. Do maxed mages do decent dmg without using lower resist?
In general they will do about half as much as your warriors at moderately high + to skills. Try to have mostly fire magi if you want to micromanage that much.
5. Is it better to max CE or will ~ 10+ skill be enough?
Some people will say max it, others say 10 points. I say leave it at one. If you are going for decked out super expensive gear then you will have about +15-19 to all your skills. That gives you a 7.6-9 yard radius. The same area is covered by lvl10-12 Amp. I think this is enough.

[Qracle]

seriously though what else will you use the points in,
Skellies, mages, and mastery only take 60 points to max, one point on other prereqs and one in each curse, you have a huge killing force. and still have about 20 points left before you hit level 90
the huge radius makes for fun times with lvl 30+ CE

[twelvebagger]

To the original poster:

Can they kill as well? Well, I suppose that depends on how you build and what you define as being "as well". In general, summoners are a very viable build, fun as heck to play, and relatively easy. I have been a summoner fan for a long time. Every time I quit D2 and come back and make new accts (has happened 3 times now), I make a summoner almost immediately as they are a great utility.


When you compare raw killing speed I'd have to answer like this:

1) Players 8, Comparing hammerdin and necro where you are SOLO (running off on your own) in a full game, the hammerdin wins the killl contest.
2) Players 8, comparing while grouped with a full party, the necromancer would probably outshine the hammerdin in both killing speed (CE) and utility.

But, 1) and 2) are entirely different things.


A good necro is much cheaper to build.

For gear, I'd recommend Arm of King Leoric over Hoto.

[jag]

seriously though what else will you use the points in,
Skellies, mages, and mastery only take 60 points to max, one point on other prereqs and one in each curse, you have a huge killing force. and still have about 20 points left before you hit level 90
the huge radius makes for fun times with lvl 30+ CE

Thats whats kinda fun about this build -- you do have some extra points to play around with --

-- you can 1 point iron golem and have some fun raising him with some unique/set weapons
-- get bone prison and wall -- prison can actually be handy to slow down the progress of something really nasty critters so you can partition off the fight and handle things one at a time. (bone wall also fun to annoy other people on baal runs -- spam it everywhere so non-jumpers/teleporters are trapped -- great way to make friends hehehe)

using bone armor can save your hide in many situations -- just 1 point and let your skillers raise that up.

After you get the basics of max rs,sm, mages otional, 1 to all curses, 1 to CE -- anything else is fairly customizable to what you want to do...

[Thynqikan]

To the original poster:

Can they kill as well? Well, I suppose that depends on how you build and what you define as being "as well". In general, summoners are a very viable build, fun as heck to play, and relatively easy. I have been a summoner fan for a long time. Every time I quit D2 and come back and make new accts (has happened 3 times now), I make a summoner almost immediately as they are a great utility.


When you compare raw killing speed I'd have to answer like this:

1) Players 8, Comparing hammerdin and necro where you are SOLO (running off on your own) in a full game, the hammerdin wins the killl contest.
2) Players 8, comparing while grouped with a full party, the necromancer would probably outshine the hammerdin in both killing speed (CE) and utility.

But, 1) and 2) are entirely different things.


A good necro is much cheaper to build.

For gear, I'd recommend Arm of King Leoric over Hoto.

IMHO, you cant make this comparison without also considering the survivability of the toon in Players 8. I guarantee you the Hammerdin dies more than the necro.


*thynqikan

[twelvebagger]

IMHO, you cant make this comparison without also considering the survivability of the toon in Players 8. I guarantee you the Hammerdin dies more than the necro.


*thynqikan

There's very few places hammerdin's die, regardless of the number of players in game.

But we can of course agree to disagree.

[Thynqikan]

Even fewer that a Necro dies is my point.
Having played both to lvl 89 I am positive.
Examples:
1. Lag = Hammerdin dies Necro doesnt
2. surprise encounter extra strong/ multishot/ cursed archer boss = hammerdin dies necro doesnt ( like you go down a level and the group is right at entry )
3. Mana burn tough boss groups can be a problem for Hammerdin

Basically I can list all the times my Hammerdin died, and I know my necro wouldnt have. Since my necro has yet to die...

Patriarch Kavorkian lvl 89 Summoner
Patriarch Hammertol lvl 89 Hammerdin