Help with Faithzon's Skill Allocation

[cassurai]

I feel that I've screwed up the skills on my WF Strafer/LF Hybrid (mainly Strafe, LF only for PIs) and is considering rebuilding her with more careful skill points allocation. She can kill perfectly fine. In fact her damage with a Might Merc is so good it's overkill for PvM, and I have problems surviving due to poor resists and such. Also, she's my first real character this Ladder (after MF Sorc) so back then I was really poor and never even imagined getting a Zon Torch and Anni, so I totally overshot some of my skills (112% Pierce :lol: ). So I'm gonna get rid of my 45 IAS Mav's Diadem and WF and swap for a Faith and Giant Skull (just for a change) and restart all over. My dream is to make her a shieldless Bowazon who has maxed resists to be able solo Hell Baal.

Thing is, I have no idea what skill points to put other than those below:

20 Strafe
20 Valk
20 LF
1 Pierce
1 D/A/E
1 Critical Strike
1 Penetrate
6 Prereqs

That's exactly 70 points spent. Complete at Level 58. :rolleyes:

I really don't know what else to put in. For Pierce I have exactly +8 Passive & Magic Skills so it's already 102% with Razortail. CS and D/A/E are also at Level 9 with HUGE diminishing returns. So no points there either. "Faith" gives ITD so Penetrate is useless too. And recently I found that ITD doesn't work on Champions and Uniques, but annoyingly, Penetrate is a Prereq for Pierce so with +8 Skills it's again at Level 9 so it's decent enough. Besides I have close to 400 Dex with gear and Faith gives 300% bonus to AR. So Penetrate's out as well.

Oh, and don't tell me to leave Valk at 9 points just because I have +8 skills! My problem is too many leftover skill points lol. Not too little. Heh. Just kidding. You can suggest anything you want. ;)

Ok so what should I do? Oh, and I don't wanna put points into LF Synergies because on switch I have a nice Level 30 LF already which kills PIs pretty fast. Remember I'm a Strafezon who uses LF rarely, only for PIs. And people are telling me Faith is better for Multishot and I should stick to WF for Strafe. Why is that so? I don't mind switching to Multi because I've been using Strafers all my life (loved the machine gun style) but goodness me, if I used Multishot which requires only like 3-4 points and 9-10 after skills, this build is going to be complete at Level 40 (52 Skill Points)! :lol:

So what points to put in? Any suggestions by anyone is welcome. If you guys want gear and stats and merc info I can post also.

[Anelka]

Isn't pierce also capped at 95% ?

I will reskill my amazon too:

Magic Arrow: 20 (no LF but MA, for pure bowzon)
Multi Arrow: 10
Cold Arrow: 1
Guided Arrow: 1
Strafe: 20

Inner Sight: 1
Slow Missles: 1
Decoy: 1
Valkyrie: 15
Dodge: 1
Avoid: 1
Evade: 1
Critical Strike: 8+
Penetrate: 20
Pierce: 1

I got WF and I am searching for the complete Amazon, too.

So why dont you put your next points into critical ? and penetrate (for WF using.)

[windwingwind]

If you kill fine and can finish the game at a speed you feel alrite, why force urself spending the skill points? I myself left ~20 skill points never spent. Well, u can say I have the same problem as u do then.... but I am fine with that :rolleyes:

[cassurai]

Isn't pierce also capped at 95% ?

I will reskill my amazon too:

Magic Arrow: 20 (no LF but MA, for pure bowzon)
Multi Arrow: 10
Cold Arrow: 1
Guided Arrow: 1
Strafe: 20

Inner Sight: 1
Slow Missles: 1
Decoy: 1
Valkyrie: 15
Dodge: 1
Avoid: 1
Evade: 1
Critical Strike: 8+
Penetrate: 20
Pierce: 1

I got WF and I am searching for the complete Amazon, too.

So why dont you put your next points into critical ? and penetrate (for WF using.)

Oh no, my CURRENT Zon has Max Penetrate, LF, Strafe, Valk, and like 5 each in D/A/E, CS, Pierce, etc. The usual Strafer-with-LF-for-PIs build I guess. And she's using a WF. But because I put way too many in the Passives (never thought I'll get so many + skills), I'm going to rebuild her, changing her weapon in the meantime to Faith just because Faith + GSkull = Way Cool :D and I never used a Faith in my life before. :eek: My problem is, as I think about my new Zon, I don't know what to put. If I just max CS it'll be Level 28 CS. What % Double Damage is that? I don't think it's worth it because the % Double Damage is probably the same from Level 22 all the way to Level 30 lol. :lol:

windwingwind: Well same problem heh. Not forcing myself to spend skill points just wondering what others are doing maybe there's a skill that's really good that I don't know about or something. PJ? CS for bosses? I don't know. Considered CS for bosses but I use Strafe on them pretty fine with my current Zon... Never tried CS before though. Is it really that good?

[windwingwind]

windwingwind: Well same problem heh. Not forcing myself to spend skill points just wondering what others are doing maybe there's a skill that's really good that I don't know about or something. PJ? CS for bosses? I don't know. Considered CS for bosses but I use Strafe on them pretty fine with my current Zon... Never tried CS before though. Is it really that good?

Oh yea, forget that u can use CS :). I dont put any point in the java/spear skill tree for my bowie. And not any point in the bow/xbow tree for my javazon, that's why :lol: . Yes CS is the fastest boss killing skill I ever tried.

[cassurai]

Oh yea, forget that u can use CS :). I dont put any point in the java/spear skill tree for my bowie. And not any point in the bow/xbow tree for my javazon, that's why :lol: . Yes CS is the fastest boss killing skill I ever tried.

Hmmm... Maybe I'll try dump 20 into CS. Do I need an Eth Titans just for that? Even with lots of Charged Bolts coming out I'm sure Physical Damage still makes it faster right? Especially with Fort...

So max CS, that's 90 points altogether... Still got about 10 points left for a level 88. lol... :lol:

btw I either do Frostmaiden or Pure Lightning Javazon, but with Strafers and Multishooters, I almost always go with LF to kill PIs. It's such a great investment. Huge damage even with no synergies. :p

[Omikron8]

I feel that I've screwed up the skills on my WF Strafer/LF Hybrid (mainly Strafe, LF only for PIs) and is considering rebuilding her with more careful skill points allocation. She can kill perfectly fine. In fact her damage with a Might Merc is so good it's overkill for PvM, and I have problems surviving due to poor resists and such. Also, she's my first real character this Ladder (after MF Sorc) so back then I was really poor and never even imagined getting a Zon Torch and Anni, so I totally overshot some of my skills (112% Pierce :lol: ). So I'm gonna get rid of my 45 IAS Mav's Diadem and WF and swap for a Faith and Giant Skull (just for a change) and restart all over. My dream is to make her a shieldless Bowazon who has maxed resists to be able solo Hell Baal.

Thing is, I have no idea what skill points to put other than those below:

20 Strafe
20 Valk
20 LF
1 Pierce
1 D/A/E
1 Critical Strike
1 Penetrate
6 Prereqs

That's exactly 70 points spent. Complete at Level 58. :rolleyes:

I really don't know what else to put in. For Pierce I have exactly +8 Passive & Magic Skills so it's already 102% with Razortail. CS and D/A/E are also at Level 9 with HUGE diminishing returns. So no points there either. "Faith" gives ITD so Penetrate is useless too. And recently I found that ITD doesn't work on Champions and Uniques, but annoyingly, Penetrate is a Prereq for Pierce so with +8 Skills it's again at Level 9 so it's decent enough. Besides I have close to 400 Dex with gear and Faith gives 300% bonus to AR. So Penetrate's out as well.

Oh, and don't tell me to leave Valk at 9 points just because I have +8 skills! My problem is too many leftover skill points lol. Not too little. Heh. Just kidding. You can suggest anything you want. ;)

Ok so what should I do? Oh, and I don't wanna put points into LF Synergies because on switch I have a nice Level 30 LF already which kills PIs pretty fast. Remember I'm a Strafezon who uses LF rarely, only for PIs. And people are telling me Faith is better for Multishot and I should stick to WF for Strafe. Why is that so? I don't mind switching to Multi because I've been using Strafers all my life (loved the machine gun style) but goodness me, if I used Multishot which requires only like 3-4 points and 9-10 after skills, this build is going to be complete at Level 40 (52 Skill Points)! :lol:

So what points to put in? Any suggestions by anyone is welcome. If you guys want gear and stats and merc info I can post also.

If your +skill boosted base penetrate + 400 dex + faith's aura gives you a 80%+ chance to hit in later parts of hell against most monsters then don't invest more points in it, otherwise some points should go there because you will run into champions/uniques very often.

Massive speed + a godly damage aura is bad for strafe? sounds like bullcrap to me

If you are using a faith GMB you will require 50% IAS for an 8/2 strafe which could be gotten from cat's eye + nos coil + laying of hands, but you are wearing razortail. If you invested more points into pierce you could put on nos coil instead and strafe faster with a GMB, unless of course your armor or helm has an IAS jewel which makes this investment pointless due to not needing nos coil then.

Investing more in D/A/E will only hurt your strafing

LF synergies are pointless

For those people advocating "OMFGZ NOOBZ SPAM HI LEVEL MULTISHOT" i tell them "have fun when you reach a boss/high HP single target". I'm sure your precious multishot will do approximately NOTHING then and guided arrow sucks for single targets as well in 1.10/1.11 in terms of killing speed compared to strafe. LF will also do practically nothing against single targets, unless you are in low player # hell. I'm certain multishot wins out against strafe against big wide angle monster crowds but that advantage rapidly disappears as the monster pack becomes tighter or smaller.

Your setup is just another example of how zons are the least skill dependent class in D2 once they max 1-2 killing skills because their synergies suck (except FA or CS or LS synergies).

The only options i can see, none of which help you much

1) invest in charged strike
2) more in penetrate
3) more in pierce
4) some in FA for better crowd control?

None of these really help you

stay far far away from Magic Arrow, that is what reaper's toll/atma's/WWS is for

[cassurai]

If your +skill boosted base penetrate + 400 dex + faith's aura gives you a 80%+ chance to hit in later parts of hell against most monsters then don't invest more points in it, otherwise some points should go there because you will run into champions/uniques very often.

Massive speed + a godly damage aura is bad for strafe? sounds like bullcrap to me

If you are using a faith GMB you will require 50% IAS for an 8/2 strafe which could be gotten from cat's eye + nos coil + laying of hands, but you are wearing razortail. If you invested more points into pierce you could put on nos coil instead and strafe faster with a GMB, unless of course your armor or helm has an IAS jewel which makes this investment pointless due to not needing nos coil then.

Investing more in D/A/E will only hurt your strafing

LF synergies are pointless

For those people advocating "OMFGZ NOOBZ SPAM HI LEVEL MULTISHOT" i tell them "have fun when you reach a boss/high HP single target". I'm sure your precious multishot will do approximately NOTHING then and guided arrow sucks for single targets as well in 1.10/1.11 in terms of killing speed compared to strafe. LF will also do practically nothing against single targets, unless you are in low player # hell. I'm certain multishot wins out against strafe against big wide angle monster crowds but that advantage rapidly disappears as the monster pack becomes tighter or smaller.

Your setup is just another example of how zons are the least skill dependent class in D2 once they max 1-2 killing skills because their synergies suck (except FA or CS or LS synergies).

The only options i can see, none of which help you much

1) invest in charged strike
2) more in penetrate
3) more in pierce
4) some in FA for better crowd control?

None of these really help you

stay far far away from Magic Arrow, that is what reaper's toll/atma's/WWS is for


Thanks a lot Omikron! Extremely insightful Zon advice as usual. :thumbsup:

I totally agree with most of the things you said, especially the part about Strafe vs Multishot and the fact that Zons are the least skill dependent and yet highly effective PvM killers in the game! :D A few things though.

1) 50% IAS for 8/2? I checked the German IAS Calculator and it says 35% IAS for 2-frame Strafe (GM Bow, Level 14 Fanaticism), although it's 9 frames for a regular attack, not 8. I never EVER use regular attacks with my Strafezons (since I use LF for PIs) and even less now that Guided is crap in PvM. But you sounded as if 8/2 is faster than 9/2 even for Strafe attacks? Shouldn't both be 2-frames? I don't really want to sacrifice gear for another 15% IAS. :(

2) This new Zon is still in her early stages. Later I will check to see if she gets 80+% Chance to Hit on most monsters in Hell. Faith's aura, Level 9 Penetrate, Raven Frost, 400 Dex, and Faith's 300% AR Bonus mod looks absolutely impressive even for monsters that ITD doesn't work on though! But I'll check. If it isn't 80+% I'll invest throw 1-5 points into Penetrate.

3) Regarding your advice on single targets, I agree completely that 2-frane Strafe with knockback is absolutely insane. But I've been hearing things about Charged Strike, which I might dump 20 points into since I have so much leftover. Is it worth it if Strafe is already so good? For the Act bosses? Maybe?


Regarding my gear, here's what I have waiting for her. This is going to cost me an arm and a leg on Ladder, but I really want to build a Bowazon that can take on Hell Baal even without a shield.

Gear:
2-socket Giant Skull (14 All Resists jewel + 15 IAS jewel)
Fortitude Dusk (21 Resists)
Faith GM Bow (2/14)
Titans + Spirit on switch
Cat's Eye
Raven Frost
Mana Leech Ring (looking for one with 9+ all resists atm)
Dracul's Grasp (10/11)
Razortail
War Travs

Charms:
19 Res Anni, 19 Res Zon Torch, 15 Res GC, 6 Res LC, Light Res SC, 3x 27 Single Res GC (Fire, Light, Cold), 2x Passive Skillers (found these and no one wants to buy Passive Skillers anyway)

-

As you can see, I have exactly 35 IAS for 2 frame strafe, although it is 9/2 and not 8/2. I don't use regular bow attacks so it's not necessary to get another 15% somewhere right? I'll have to wait for your answer to point 1 above. I don't want to use Laying of Hands because as you can see I have no Life Leech anywhere and Dracul's 10% LL and Life Tap with casts so bloody often really, really makes me feel comfortable so I don't want to take that off if possible. What I really like about this setup is that you get 80 L, 75 C, 75 F and about 50 P Resists in Hell which is very good for a non-shield user, at the same time maintaining decent Life and insane damage (possibly 1k-4k with Might Merc?) I can't think of anything else besides resists to use as charms anyway, since it's not meant for PvP at all. Oh, and another question, must I get myself an Eth Titan's if I use Charged Strike on Act bosses or is the damage mainly Lightning?

Thanks. Any help by anyone is appreciated. :thumbsup:

[Omikron8]

Well as i have said many times laying of hands beats all other pvm bowazon gloves, especially if you want to run pits or any act bosses, and LoH will also give you 20 IAS which means more equipment flexibility. Combine this with cat's eye/highlords and you have your IAS requirement for 9/2 strafe.

I've never been a fan of giant skull because an item like andy's visage gives tons of str as well but gives you IAS, an extra socket for IAS, life leech and +2 skills. Alternatively you could use the old reliable tal's mask which would allow you to put on dual ravenfrosts for a massive damage + AR boost as well as near cold immunity.

Light immunes are far more common than physical immunes so strafe wins out against charged strike for the majority of single targets in hell difficulty. A strafe/fury hybrid is meant to use strafe for tight monster packs or thin but long packs of monsters, or for single targets. The LF is meant to clear out most of the monsters in a huge pack of low HP monsters like devilkin in the pit.

I am sorry to tell you but torch is simply not feasable on any pvm char that can trigger the firestorm with any sufficient frequency, and you will trigger it a lot with a 2 frame strafe. You will have constant spikes to thousands of ping for everyone in the game (even if they are in a different act) and will have to wait for 10-15 seconds for the lag to subside, only to come back if you spam strafe firestorm again.

If you are set on charged strike as a third killing skill after strafe/LF then normal exceptional titans will suffice.

With a faith GMB + fort + ~400 dex + maxed strafe + level 90+ might merc your final strafe damage should be around 3900 max because mine is 4400 max with a similar setup but with dream diadem as helm (i use dual leech rare ring + raven).

I myself am a speed freak so i use 50% IAS to get the 8/2 strafe, which means i substitute nos coil for razortail. My pierce is around 60% then but i don't notice a big difference in strafe killing speed compared to 100% pierce.

[cassurai]

Well as i have said many times laying of hands beats all other pvm bowazon gloves, especially if you want to run pits or any act bosses, and LoH will also give you 20 IAS which means more equipment flexibility. Combine this with cat's eye/highlords and you have your IAS requirement for 9/2 strafe.

I've never been a fan of giant skull because an item like andy's visage gives tons of str as well but gives you IAS, an extra socket for IAS, life leech and +2 skills. Alternatively you could use the old reliable tal's mask which would allow you to put on dual ravenfrosts for a massive damage + AR boost as well as near cold immunity.

Light immunes are far more common than physical immunes so strafe wins out against charged strike for the majority of single targets in hell difficulty. A strafe/fury hybrid is meant to use strafe for tight monster packs or thin but long packs of monsters, or for single targets. The LF is meant to clear out most of the monsters in a huge pack of low HP monsters like devilkin in the pit.

I am sorry to tell you but torch is simply not feasable on any pvm char that can trigger the firestorm with any sufficient frequency, and you will trigger it a lot with a 2 frame strafe. You will have constant spikes to thousands of ping for everyone in the game (even if they are in a different act) and will have to wait for 10-15 seconds for the lag to subside, only to come back if you spam strafe firestorm again.

If you are set on charged strike as a third killing skill after strafe/LF then normal exceptional titans will suffice.

With a faith GMB + fort + ~400 dex + maxed strafe + level 90+ might merc your final strafe damage should be around 3900 max because mine is 4400 max with a similar setup but with dream diadem as helm (i use dual leech rare ring + raven).

I myself am a speed freak so i use 50% IAS to get the 8/2 strafe, which means i substitute nos coil for razortail. My pierce is around 60% then but i don't notice a big difference in strafe killing speed compared to 100% pierce.

Thanks. I really don't mind 9/2 though. I'll also take your advice regarding Strafe and LF and will use regular Titans and Charged Strike only a tertiary skill.

Where do you get Knockback if not for Giant Skull? IAS jeweled Tal's Mask gives same IAS and resists as the 15/15 Giant Skull I planned on using but has a dual Leech, which is good but then there isn't knockback. Then comes the looks factor which is really important to me (yes, it's just me I know), so I'm not really considering anything else.

Regarding what you said about Torch, is it really that bad? It casts every second yes, but it doesn't affect me at all. The other day I tested it (with my old WF Zon) with a friend killing monsters in the Black Marsh and he said it wasn't laggy either, and in fact it looked cool. Well I don't know... I myself have never played with a Strafezon using a Torch before so I don't know how it feels, but my friend found it okay. :(

[Omikron8]

I have an athlon XP 2200+ with 1 gig of pc333 DDR RAM, a 128 MB Geforce Card and a pretty damn good stable cable connection. Even with all of this all i need is for 4-5 firestorms to go off in 1-2 seconds and i spike up to thousands of pings for 10-20 seconds.

If you don't suffer from firestorm lag then you must have one truly sick PC and internet connection.

Yes the firestorm lag really IS that bad. Also i hope anyone playing with you when you are spamming this firestorm have amazing PC setups as well.

Knockback is nice but unless i am using WF (which i did in season one) i don't consider it a necessity. I look at the mod's on tal's mask + dual ravens or andy's visage + raven + rare ring and compare it to giant skull and the giant skull just does not compare. Also smart valk recasting (and decoy if necessary) to the proper positions + a hearty might merc should mean no need for knockback.

A big fat oversized skull on your head looks good to you? to each his own but i think anything but a circlet looks hideous on a zon. Unfortunately the best zon helms are ugly (andy's, tal's) so we don't have a choice unless we want to handicap ourselves.

[cassurai]

A big fat oversized skull on your head looks good to you? to each his own but i think anything but a circlet looks hideous on a zon. Unfortunately the best zon helms are ugly (andy's, tal's) so we don't have a choice unless we want to handicap ourselves.

That's true. I love circlets and those blonde locks. :lol:

[Freezing Rain]

I had a faithzon and she did pretty good.. her skill allocation:

20 Penetrate
20 Critical Strike
9/9/12 D-A-E
20 Guided Arrow
1 In all P&M's

Multi had 25k AR, Guided did 6k damage, i messed up on her life though...

*Zons. Do. Not. Need. 550. Dexterity.*

[cassurai]

I had a faithzon and she did pretty good.. her skill allocation:

20 Penetrate
20 Critical Strike
9/9/12 D-A-E
20 Guided Arrow
1 In all P&M's

Multi had 25k AR, Guided did 6k damage, i messed up on her life though...

*Zons. Do. Not. Need. 550. Dexterity.*

That's for PvP I supposed? Heh good to know but mine is fully PvM. So ITD works and no Penetrate. Also no Guided and need LF to handle PIs. HUGE difference in builds.

I don't have the resources to maintain both a BvB Barb and PvP Zon on Ladder! :lol: