Backstabbadin: Teleport, Charge, a Dagger, and Open Wounds.

[LeegionOnEast]

While experimenting with a Charger, I accidently picked up a dagger when looking for my corpse. I was Cowing, so I ran into like 3 Cows and wanted to dispose of them. I was trying to spread them out, and in the process ended up behind on. After charging it, it got knocked back, got cold damage from my SC, and didn't turn around. I charged it 4 or 5 times, and it died without hitting me. I realised that do to the small range of the dagger, I could keep charging at a rapid rate, and with cold damage/freezing/slowing you can easily rapidly attack someone without any defence.

I looked around for a good dagger or small axe so I could charge after knockback. Right now I'm going to use Fleshripper, because I found another hidden gem. Open Wounds is a better version of poison. In lvl90 duels, it can deal 500+ damage over 8 seconds, at about 65 per second. It may not sound like alot, but with cold and the fact OW can't be prevented or reduced, you have a good source of damage.

The strategy of this melee character is to teleport behind and basically rape their character, killing them with OW and CB while they keep getting knocked back. I'm thinking it might even lag them, loading turning graphics, blocking graphics, bleeding graphics, knock back graphics all at the same time. I have insane attack speed because of Charges automatic Charge-Hit. With name lock, it's a blood bath. Here's how I've built it:

Helm: Vampire Gaze
Armor: Enigma Wire Fleece
Gloves: Immortal King
Belt: Trang-Oul
Boots: Immortal King
Weapon: Fleshripper
Sheild: HoZ, SS, or 4s Sacred Targe (UMx4 or PDiax4)
Ammy: Angelic
Rings: Angelic

So when it comes down to it, I can teleport, I have CB,OW,and DS, I have both leeches, insane attack rateing, alot of life, can't be frozen, damage reduction, and decent defence.

My skills are like this:

20 Charge
20 Might
20 Vigor
20 Concentration
All Pres
1 Holy Shield
1 Salvation

I have 110 Base Strength, 56 Dex, 10 Energy, and the rest Vitality.

How could this do against other melee? How about bowzons and sorcs?

[Noite Escura]

The problem with charge IMO is that a player with Max Block will most likely cut your advantage. Not to mention Bone Necros will be untouchable.

[LeegionOnEast]

That's why I have Concentration, I end up with basically a 45% chance that I'll hit even if they have max block. I haven't tested this yet, but I think that when you hit from behind it "flanks" them and they don't get to block. The only reason I think this is because it has to go through block animation which means they have to be facing you. In order to turn and block it will take more time then a normal block and would basically mean that I hit them and they turn and block, which in case I can attack again.

Has anyone else experimented with Charge?

[Phyrexial]

While experimenting with a Charger, I accidently picked up a dagger when looking for my corpse. I was Cowing, so I ran into like 3 Cows and wanted to dispose of them. I was trying to spread them out, and in the process ended up behind on. After charging it, it got knocked back, got cold damage from my SC, and didn't turn around. I charged it 4 or 5 times, and it died without hitting me. I realised that do to the small range of the dagger, I could keep charging at a rapid rate, and with cold damage/freezing/slowing you can easily rapidly attack someone without any defence.
Against another player, I'm fairly certain that despite what direction the player is looking they can instantly turn around and attack you when they click an attack. The reason the cow didn't hit you is simply because they have a fairly slow attack, especially after cold/slow/knockback. A player will most likely have CBF (cannot be frozen), slow only effects non-caster's attack speed, and knockback can be greatly reduced with fhr gear and avoided with max block to an extent. Knockback will be your primary stunning method though if you were to go with this build and can stunlock quite a few characters to death if you manage to keep hitting.


I looked around for a good dagger or small axe so I could charge after knockback. Right now I'm going to use Fleshripper, because I found another hidden gem. Open Wounds is a better version of poison. In lvl90 duels, it can deal 500+ damage over 8 seconds, at about 65 per second. It may not sound like alot, but with cold and the fact OW can't be prevented or reduced, you have a good source of damage.
No offense, but it's not really a "hidden gem" to most of this community. It's pretty well known that OW is a powerful addition to any character that can make use of it. You'll see it is brought up in alot of the WW sin and WW barb threads all the time.


The strategy of this melee character is to teleport behind and basically rape their character, killing them with OW and CB while they keep getting knocked back. I'm thinking it might even lag them, loading turning graphics, blocking graphics, bleeding graphics, knock back graphics all at the same time. I have insane attack speed because of Charges automatic Charge-Hit. With name lock, it's a blood bath. Here's how I've built it:
Unless this is something that the entirety of the D2 community has missed over the course of the 4-5 years that it has been around, hitting a target in the back doesn't have any further knockback or stunning. It still is a good idea to approach casters from behind as they are most likely spamming attacks in your general direction. If you can get the jump on them, you won't be running through as many attacks to get to them. Even less if you can accurately teleport close to them but far enough away to charge.

Just remember that Charge is NOT auto-hit. It does require Attack Rating to hit so high defense characters can still make you miss and characters with max block will completely ignore your charge damage and knockback 75% of the time at which point you are a sitting duck since you are now too close to them to charge and that's practically a free hit for many duelers.


Helm: Vampire Gaze
Armor: Enigma Wire Fleece
Gloves: Immortal King
Belt: Trang-Oul
Boots: Immortal King
Weapon: Fleshripper
Sheild: HoZ, SS, or 4s Sacred Targe (UMx4 or PDiax4)
Ammy: Angelic
Rings: Angelic

Vamp Gaze is decent, but a CoA would probably be ideal albeit more expensive if DR is what you are aiming for. Another good choice is Guillaume's Face as it has a load of fhr (faster hit recovery), cb (Crushing Blow), and most importantly for your build is ds (Deadly Strike). DS grants you a chance to do double damage if you didn't already know, which with a high damage weapon can grant you 1-2 hit KOs on most casters and even some melee.

Enigma Wirefleece isn't a terribly good choice of armor for an Enigma since you can get more defense for less strength using a number of armors. For example, a Wyrmhide has 4 less possible max defense but costs 27 less strength. That's 54 life before Battle Orders multiplies it.

Gloves would probably be better off as Steelrends for more damage or more likely Dracul's Grasp for more Open Wounds and chance to cast lifetap which is basically full life back for you in 1-2 hits.

Belt should probably be Verdungo's for 15% more damage reduction and alot more life.

Boots should be Gore riders for even more CB and DS.

Overall, your build also lacks any faster cast rate (fcr) gear at all. This means you will be teleporting terribly slowly and most characters will see you coming a mile away and most likely avoid you easily.


So when it comes down to it, I can teleport, I have CB,OW,and DS, I have both leeches, insane attack rateing, alot of life, can't be frozen, damage reduction, and decent defence.

My skills are like this:

20 Charge
20 Might
20 Vigor
20 Concentration
All Pres
1 Holy Shield
1 Salvation

I have 110 Base Strength, 56 Dex, 10 Energy, and the rest Vitality.

How could this do against other melee? How about bowzons and sorcs?
Why do you have maxed Concentration? You had to max Might anyway for the synergies to Charge, why not use that aura and save 20 points?

Also, roughly how much AR and defense do you have?

Lastly, leech from anything other than Lifetap is reduced alot in dueling against other players to the point that it is largely useless.

[Phyrexial]

That's why I have Concentration, I end up with basically a 45% chance that I'll hit even if they have max block. I haven't tested this yet, but I think that when you hit from behind it "flanks" them and they don't get to block. The only reason I think this is because it has to go through block animation which means they have to be facing you. In order to turn and block it will take more time then a normal block and would basically mean that I hit them and they turn and block, which in case I can attack again.

Has anyone else experimented with Charge?
First off, they don't need to turn in order to block. On many occassions I have blocked against attacks coming from various directions including behind me and from the sides with my character not changing the direction he/she was facing. There is no increased delay at all.

Blocking can be done from any direction.

Lastly, Concentration grants a chance to have an uninteruptable attack which means that you won't be sent into hit recovery frames from what I understand. Zeal for example is also uninteruptable thus they will continue to zeal even if they are hit while zealing. Dragon Talon (an assassin's kick skill) is interruptable thus they can be stunned out of it. I may not have a full understanding of how the above works, but I know that uninteruptable doesn't mean the attack ignores defense or block of your target.

[LeegionOnEast]

First off, they don't need to turn in order to block. On many occassions I have blocked against attacks coming from various directions including behind me and from the sides with my character not changing the direction he/she was facing. There is no increased delay at all.

Blocking can be done from any direction.

Lastly, Concentration grants a chance to have an uninteruptable attack which means that you won't be sent into hit recovery frames from what I understand. Zeal for example is also uninteruptable thus they will continue to zeal even if they are hit while zealing. Dragon Talon (an assassin's kick skill) is interruptable thus they can be stunned out of it. I may not have a full understanding of how the above works, but I know that uninteruptable doesn't mean the attack ignores defense or block of your target.

From what I understand from reading the skill multiple times, there's a 20% chance they can not block it.

"Those within the sphere of influence of this skill gain the gift of clarity. A serene sense of lucidity eases the minds of those within, giving them the freedom to focus on individual tasks despite the chaos and distractions of battle. This sense of tranquility allows the Paladin and his comrades to strike calculated and devastating blows.

Effect: Reduces the chance that your attacks will be interrupted.

Concentration offers two things, a chance for an uninterrupted hit, and increases greatly the damage you will do. This can also be combined with other high damage combat skills such as Sacrifice and Charge for high levels of damage. If you want to do a lot of damage, this is a good aura for you. This can also be shared with other party members which is great especially for other Paladins, Barbarians, and Amazons.

Concentration increases the damage for Blessed Hammer at 50% efficiency. "

From The Arreat Summit.

That would lead one to believe that the attack itself hit uninterrupted 20% of the time. With Zeal, it means all 5 hits happen, blocked or not, it doesn't go 2 then stop if blocked.

Does anyone know how Charge's knockback works with weapon range? I've been planning on the Dagger because of it's small range, but I think a regular sword has range small enough for a Charge lock also.

I'm fairly sure my attack rating will be fine. In between dual Angelics and the Charge bonus, I think it will be fine. If I'm wrong, let me know.

[mastermind]

hmm no this build wont work well in duel.
Fighting a ww barb with this setup is suicide for a start cuz ul be in range or charge into a ww plus barbs have max block and high def also even against sorcs most sorc now have max block in dueling and so do most of theo ther chars and builds, this will leave u way too much exposed to dmg from mele chars or even elemental dmg.

The only thing i can see healpfull is to get ur opponment in hit recovery mode a char with slow hit recovery an use clegclaw to slow ur opponment and for the kkockback effect u could get ur opponment in stunlock.

But the problem with charge is that the charge bug still exists so you could charge and freeze then its gg

[LeegionOnEast]

hmm no this build wont work well in duel.
Fighting a ww barb with this setup is suicide for a start cuz ul be in range or charge into a ww plus barbs have max block and high def also even against sorcs most sorc now have max block in dueling and so do most of theo ther chars and builds, this will leave u way too much exposed to dmg from mele chars or even elemental dmg.

The only thing i can see healpfull is to get ur opponment in hit recovery mode a char with slow hit recovery an use clegclaw to slow ur opponment and for the kkockback effect u could get ur opponment in stunlock.

But the problem with charge is that the charge bug still exists so you could charge and freeze then its gg

Yes I understand maxblock. All anyone talks about these days is max block. Let's put it this way: Can anyone make a non-smiter/zealer/caster/ww and actually hit someone?

[aznbboi16]

Ok, you definitely don't understand what concentration does. It gives you a chance of being uninterruptible. That does not mean it gives you 20% chance to auto hit. It means during your attack, you have a 20% chance that stunning damage incurred while in attacking animation will not interrupt you.

Max block is especially devastating to chargers because they do not get knocked back if they block, and you will end up using mana for a normal attack. Since most chargers do not focus on IAS, this tends to be a very slow/weak/inaccurate attack that leaves you incredibly vulnerable. If you're smart enough not to hold charge down after being blocked, you will have to charge/run back and charge them again.

Charge is already uninterruptible, so you might as well spend those 20 points in a more useful aura like Fanatacism, which offers much more damage than might or conc and gives you AR and attack speed on top of that.

Honestly, I think this build is really bad as far as pvp goes. Creativity may be fun in pvm, but if it doesn't work for pvp, you will probably not enjoy it. Killing cows is one thing, killing another player is a totally different story.

[Rauth]

The rule is: if it hasn't been thought of by now, it won't work.

Aside from unknown bugs or unknown game mechanics, this rule works pretty well :).

[De4dEyE]

I give an A for coming up with the build name.. :teeth:

[Rauth]

I give an A for coming up with the build name.. :teeth:

That would be my nickname for a desynching hammerdin actually. I'll be just chilling out in the blood moor, minding my own business, and wham, hammer to the face outa nowhere.

[De4dEyE]

That happened hella times to me.. sitting far away in the bloodmoor and had the chat screen up, and suddenly I'm dying

[Phyrexial]

Does anyone know how Charge's knockback works with weapon range? I've been planning on the Dagger because of it's small range, but I think a regular sword has range small enough for a Charge lock also.

I'm fairly sure my attack rating will be fine. In between dual Angelics and the Charge bonus, I think it will be fine. If I'm wrong, let me know.
Well, if you feel Concentration does that and we can't convince you otherwise go for it and good luck.

Charge's knockback is not dependant on the weapon type/range/damage at all, it is fixed as far as I know. However, you should have realized by now that charge has a minimum distance you need to be away from a target so you can charge them right? This changes depending on your weapon's range I believe, the minimum distance required for a successful charge increasing as your weapon range increases. There have been alot of theories and tests done with charge and if I remember correctly the conclusion was that lower range weapons have a greater chance of repeated hits while a longer range weapon has better a better chance of hitting a sidestepping target as it's area of effect is larger. You can run a search for that in the Paladin forum, I'm sure you'll find much more definitive answers concerning the effects of range on charge.

As for your attack rating, you didn't actually give us a number (unless I missed it) so it's kinda hard for us to judge it. Most high def characters have around 20-40k def from what I hear, BvB barbs for example having around 30k defense and zealer and smiter pallies having up to 40k if not more. If you want to hit either of those, you will probably want at least 30k AR to manage around a 50% chance to hit if you are of the same level. That is before calculating in their chance to block. If you need more AR, try prebuffing yourself by using Enchant charges from the weapon Demon Limb which should boost your AR by alot.

[LeegionOnEast]

Ok, you definitely don't understand what concentration does. It gives you a chance of being uninterruptible. That does not mean it gives you 20% chance to auto hit. It means during your attack, you have a 20% chance that stunning damage incurred while in attacking animation will not interrupt you.

Max block is especially devastating to chargers because they do not get knocked back if they block, and you will end up using mana for a normal attack. Since most chargers do not focus on IAS, this tends to be a very slow/weak/inaccurate attack that leaves you incredibly vulnerable. If you're smart enough not to hold charge down after being blocked, you will have to charge/run back and charge them again.

Charge is already uninterruptible, so you might as well spend those 20 points in a more useful aura like Fanatacism, which offers much more damage than might or conc and gives you AR and attack speed on top of that.

Honestly, I think this build is really bad as far as pvp goes. Creativity may be fun in pvm, but if it doesn't work for pvp, you will probably not enjoy it. Killing cows is one thing, killing another player is a totally different story.

Should I even spend the point in Fanaticism? I'll only need the speed half the time, and life you said I do have Might.

Diablo was so different in .09. Maybe I shouldn't have come back after such a long break. :(

[LeegionOnEast]

Well, if you feel Concentration does that and we can't convince you otherwise go for it and good luck.

Charge's knockback is not dependant on the weapon type/range/damage at all, it is fixed as far as I know. However, you should have realized by now that charge has a minimum distance you need to be away from a target so you can charge them right? This changes depending on your weapon's range I believe, the minimum distance required for a successful charge increasing as your weapon range increases. There have been alot of theories and tests done with charge and if I remember correctly the conclusion was that lower range weapons have a greater chance of repeated hits while a longer range weapon has better a better chance of hitting a sidestepping target as it's area of effect is larger. You can run a search for that in the Paladin forum, I'm sure you'll find much more definitive answers concerning the effects of range on charge.

As for your attack rating, you didn't actually give us a number (unless I missed it) so it's kinda hard for us to judge it. Most high def characters have around 20-40k def from what I hear, BvB barbs for example having around 30k defense and zealer and smiter pallies having up to 40k if not more. If you want to hit either of those, you will probably want at least 30k AR to manage around a 50% chance to hit if you are of the same level. That is before calculating in their chance to block. If you need more AR, try prebuffing yourself by using Enchant charges from the weapon Demon Limb which should boost your AR by alot.

Should I use Fanaticism for the AR then? I should have enough points to pump it in all 20, even though I accidently added an extra into Concentration. I was thinking of not using Fanaticism because I don't really need IAS.

[Phyrexial]

Should I use Fanaticism for the AR then? I should have enough points to pump it in all 20, even though I accidently added an extra into Concentration. I was thinking of not using Fanaticism because I don't really need IAS.
If you are a pure charger, stick with Might and use the extra points for Holy Shield or something.

If you do decide to load up on fanatacism, you could consider getting Smite as a backup attack for when your target fails to get knocked back. Smite ignores block entirely and it would carry alot of your nasty effects like CB and OW and benefit from the ias. Depending on what your AR is now (which you still haven't told us) you may or may not need the additional AR.

[LeegionOnEast]

If you are a pure charger, stick with Might and use the extra points for Holy Shield or something.

If you do decide to load up on fanatacism, you could consider getting Smite as a backup attack for when your target fails to get knocked back. Smite ignores block entirely and it would carry alot of your nasty effects like CB and OW and benefit from the ias. Depending on what your AR is now (which you still haven't told us) you may or may not need the additional AR.

I'm not sure what it will be exactly.

Dual Angelics bonus, lvl 22 (26 if I use HoZ) Charge bonus, 86 dex, and then possibly 22 or 24 Fanaticism bonus. I know it will be quite high. The character is level 36 right now, and I have 6.5k AR.

[TheDanRathersProject]

If you are a pure charger, stick with Might and use the extra points for Holy Shield or something.

If you do decide to load up on fanatacism, you could consider getting Smite as a backup attack for when your target fails to get knocked back. Smite ignores block entirely and it would carry alot of your nasty effects like CB and OW and benefit from the ias. Depending on what your AR is now (which you still haven't told us) you may or may not need the additional AR.

That would result in an extreamly week smite i bealive, that would have a hard time killing alomst everything. A no grief, no pally combats, hardley any +skill equip, not nessisarely a maxed holysheild, smite, or fanat = points better spent elsewhere.

This is just my opinion. after dr and peniltys it will just not hurt that much.

[ROMVS]

That would result in an extreamly week smite i bealive, that would have a hard time killing alomst everything. A no grief, no pally combats, hardley any +skill equip, not nessisarely a maxed holysheild, smite, or fanat = points better spent elsewhere.

This is just my opinion. after dr and peniltys it will just not hurt that much.

The smite damage would be weak, true, but I think you missed his point. He is saying use smite to activate OW and get some CB damage as well.

[LeegionOnEast]

So far I'm doing good. I just got rushed for NM and am at level 44. I deal 800ish damage with Charge and a Coldkill I found, with level 8 Fanaticism right now. Charge is maxed, with 12-14 in Might. I have 9k AR.

[TheDanRathersProject]

The smite damage would be weak, true, but I think you missed his point. He is saying use smite to activate OW and get some CB damage as well.

but you wont be able to kill most peope with OW and CB. The point of a pvp char is too kill people.

[Valvolux]

LeegionOnEast you started another thread about your charger in the pally forum i think and never addressed the problems that were pointed out to you about the build. You seem determined to make this kind of pally, so all the best with it, don't let any amount of logic or experience get in your way lol

[Rauth]

The point of a pvp char is too kill people.

Lies! The point of a pvp char is to annoy the other guy more than he annoys you. At least, thats how it is in most public games ;),

[LeegionOnEast]

LeegionOnEast you started another thread about your charger in the pally forum i think and never addressed the problems that were pointed out to you about the build. You seem determined to make this kind of pally, so all the best with it, don't let any amount of logic or experience get in your way lol

I'm sorry, I could just build the same exact character as everyone else in the world, and then have little to no fun. I mean, c'mon, wasn't Diablo made to have fun? That one win after a few loses is always fun. When you own the same builds consistantly and lose to the same ones consistantly, it isn't fun.

[Baranor]

I'm sorry, I could just build the same exact character as everyone else in the world, and then have little to no fun. I mean, c'mon, wasn't Diablo made to have fun? That one win after a few loses is always fun. When you own the same builds consistantly and lose to the same ones consistantly, it isn't fun.'


True, true, yet stilll...

warhammers and their legendary mallet equivalents have a range of 1 too. in our beloved yet departed 1.09 I once saw a Cruel Legendary Mallet of Evisceration, ethereal... now that would have been a nnice toy to use ^_^

Anyways, I tend to stick to warhammers and just keep on smacking. No matter how much damage your open wounds does over 8 seconds, a few good hits with a hammer will do more in two seconds ;)

[Rauth]

When you own the same builds consistantly and lose to the same ones consistantly, it isn't fun.

Heh, as oppposed to losing to ALL builds? Yeah, that's way more fun. I've never understood people's aversion to having fun with a commonly used build, but whatever works for ya.

[mastermind]

it good to see ur trying another build out but realistically pure charge like that against most chars like that ur just going to get ownt.
I think the best suggestion would to be to follow up ur charge with the smite so if it is blocked u can still do some dmg with the ow and cb if activated cuz smite dont miss.

Even against a sorc that method probably wont work cuz sorc now ususally have good fhr and fcr and max dr plus max block.

This definetly wont work against mele builds i.e smiters, zealers, WW barbs etc

There are alot of issues u need to address before u can consider this a good dueling solution.

This is not supposed to put u down but u have to be realistic when dueling charging into anything is a dangerous manouver. unless u get ppl unsuspected, but even then chances are low on that plus even with knock back other chars will just simply start to attack

[RealmOftheWolf]

Actually ive made a charger lvl 85 usein a fleshripper and ive dueled with him. Im yet to find a max block dr sorc and max block aint 2 big a thorn in my side.
20k ar atm i cant beat ww barbs but zealers and smiters are owned if your quick enough but you have to be quick with the charge.
If they block Charge away.
If they are smack CHARGE at them
Repeat this process and you can win.

Its a hard build to master but can be effective.

[Rancors]

i dont see this build has a big different than a regular charger beside using dagger. two-handed weapon or one-handed wep with range of 3 is a better option for charge.

[RealmOftheWolf]

i dont see this build has a big different than a regular charger beside using dagger. two-handed weapon or one-handed wep with range of 3 is a better option for charge.


lol theres no differance its just pubby people hate gettin owned by a dagger.
Fleshripper has some pretty mean mods on it too. oh and a longer range weapon makes u need more space to charge than a range one fleshripper.

[aznbboi16]

Actually ive made a charger lvl 85 usein a fleshripper and ive dueled with him. Im yet to find a max block dr sorc and max block aint 2 big a thorn in my side.
20k ar atm i cant beat ww barbs but zealers and smiters are owned if your quick enough but you have to be quick with the charge.
If they block Charge away.
If they are smack CHARGE at them
Repeat this process and you can win.

Its a hard build to master but can be effective.
If you can beat zealots and smiters with that then you are dueling some really bad people. Zealots and smiters have high defense, max block and can charge you right back.

[Rancors]

lol theres no differance its just pubby people hate gettin owned by a dagger.
Fleshripper has some pretty mean mods on it too. oh and a longer range weapon makes u need more space to charge than a range one fleshripper.

the longer range weapon gives u the first opportunity to activate charge. so u can hit ppl from a certain distance when charging.

short range weapon doesnt give u more space to do it. u cant use charge when ur closed to another person.

Beside, ur charge dmg will really suck with a dagger. i'd rather stick two-handed.

o ya, show me a charger that can beat a decent zealot or smiter.

[mastermind]

Actually ive made a charger lvl 85 usein a fleshripper and ive dueled with him. Im yet to find a max block dr sorc and max block aint 2 big a thorn in my side.
20k ar atm i cant beat ww barbs but zealers and smiters are owned if your quick enough but you have to be quick with the charge.
If they block Charge away.
If they are smack CHARGE at them
Repeat this process and you can win.

Its a hard build to master but can be effective.

listen charge is disadvanted to ww even if he was used 2 weaps all he has to do is start a ww and ur dead listen u cant charge into a ww and expect to live, any smiter or charge does that to me usally dies

hmm i have to agree with the rest a charger should not be able to beat a decent smiter. As somone stated these type of chars have high def and can charge back 2. In 90 % of the times a charger will always lose, unless u get ppl unware and the charge desyncs or the zealer or smiter dotn have max block