V/T or Mage?

[GkT]

Hi all,

I've been wondering this for a while, why do V/Ts get way more 'support' than Mages do? Mages generally will have a higher FoH, and I think Hammers are way more effective than Smite.

So, which one do you prefer and why?

[Speederländer]

Smite with tap allows you to suck back all your life in an instant. Hammers can be dealt with over time and with experience. My assassin always had an easier time with FoH/hammer than FoH/smite or hammer/smite. Grief powered smite and FoH powered by conviction is a very nasty combination. It provides big damage in both cases, the ability to get full life back with very little effort, and even allows for a 1 pt. invest in charge to cause real damage thanks to grief.

[Choson]

Mage all the way you can also just slap a greif on and you will have more smite damage then nonladder smiters had before greif came which is really good in my opinion

[-Ferro-]

I agree with both Speeder and Choson. Speeder points are right but after ladder reset I just slap with grief and few IAS my mage and now has 3 very powerfull attacks, no BO though :) .

[Davie.]

lol, speeder and choson are disagreeing you cant agree with both of them ^^.

[Bigrob]

mage will do better than v/t but harder to control. mage also get teleport.

when they both duel, mage will kill v/t.

[dkay]

mages are one of the most versatile builds ever. i know because i had a decke out one. ive dueled a couple v/ts in my days but none ever even hit me with smite. most times they would duel me then get tired and bring THIER mage. ^^

when it comes to PvA.. mages are still on top because they have a much better chance against casters. hammers hit things easier than smite, simple as that.

[Bigrob]

mages are one of the most versatile builds ever. i know because i had a decke out one. ive dueled a couple v/ts in my days but none ever even hit me with smite. most times they would duel me then get tired and bring THIER mage. ^^

when it comes to PvA.. mages are still on top because they have a much better chance against casters. hammers hit things easier than smite, simple as that.

imo, hammer is harder to hit than just go on someone and smite. Like, u have to switch between concentration and convcition is just ***.

[dkay]

you mean *** how you have to switch between convic and fanata with a v.t?

if hammers are harder to hand hits than smite.. then please explain why all casters own smiters while hammerdins own most casters. :O

i personally had no trouble hitting ANY cahracter wit hammers. its all about placement.


brb afk ez. emerial live is on.

luis19 i pwnzz you ez . cry more k k.

[Duelskull2]

All casters own smiters? Since when :/. I have no problem vs casters on my v/t. Havent dueled any mages but v/ts have the advantage of high charge damage grief without hurting their fcr like it would to a mage. I dont really think mages have it easier against casters..

[dkay]

All casters own smiters? Since when :/. I have no problem vs casters on my v/t. Havent dueled any mages but v/ts have the advantage of high charge damage grief without hurting their fcr like it would to a mage. I dont really think mages have it easier against casters..

i was talking about how pure smiters cannot take on casters while pure hammerdins own casters.

assuming that hammers kill casters better as well as meleers. we can safely assume that when adding foh into the equation, nothing changes and mages are still superior. i know from personal experience of using both that mages are much better.. especially since they can desync charge and just make you run into invisible hammers by leading you into directions with your foh. hammer are all about placement.

[luis19]

hammers>smite in nearly ever situation.
mage's hammer damage > smite assuming opponent is using 50dr
desynced hammers is more effective than charge+smite

only advantage i c a v/t has over a mage is a possibly higher FoH damage. however foh can be sorbed.

[Rane-]

V/T's are a lot easier to design and play effectively. I'm not saying they're scrubby or anything quite the opposite in fact, but Mages are harder to learn how to use properly, and MUCH more difficult to design. Viet and I had a long-running discussion on the optimal balance between FoH/Hammers/Charge and there was never a clear cut answer. This is why V/T's are far more common that even sub-optimal Mages.

[dkay]

acually there should be a perfect max damage setup created by dimoak (fenris) a while back. though im not sure where it is.

no a v.t wont have higher damage than a mage unless its a t.v. my old mage had 7k foh and 8k hammers.

yes it is harder to get used to and master a mage than a v.t but like luis pointed out. once you get the feel for it, it outshines v.ts in every single way.

[luis19]

IMO, tv >vt since you wont be hitting good casters with smite often, and grief lets you get away with most of your points into foh/synergies.

dkay how did you get that damage? silly noob trix are for kids.

but seriously, whats gear setup/charms zzz

[dkay]

i dont remember the exact but ill try to go back and find it. i followed fenris' setup / distribution with a slight tweak. but i do have to mention that i didnt have -150 resist. but it was enough to make them stack. like 100-125ish.

[dkay]

"Nice guide.

What about Griffon's Eye for a helm? Can add quite a bit to FoH.

BTW, I calculated the 'best' skill placement at 90 with
HoTO
Enig
Griffon (faceted)
Mara
HoZ (faceted)
2x Soj (or bk)
Arach
Anni
10x Combats
CTA

20 Vigor
16 Holy Shock
15 Blessed Hammer
13 FoH
10 Conviction (-150)
9 Blessed aim
1 Concentrate, 1 Holy Shield, 1 Salvation, 1 all prereqs. This is the best dmg output as far as synergy/skill goes.
Gives you a 6.5k Blessed Hammer and a 5.2k FoH

Not quite sure about points after 90 but I think Blessed Aim would add the most. Can get you up to 8k + hammers."

cept i had very little in convic, none in salvation, and maxed holy shock and almost foh. my char was level 94 when i was complete. though i cant remember the exact foh damage, my hammers were 8k for sure. 10k with pure hammerdins concentration.

which makes my skill point something like.... (not exact, and may be far off)

20 vigor
10 blessed aim <--- skeptical, dont remmeber
1 in concentration <--- skeptical, dont rmemeber
18ish hammer
20 holy shock
18 foh
1 in convic. (gave 105 resist)

18ish into prerequisites. (This is all off the top of my head)

best way to see what gets your max damage is to go on single player and check for yourself. and with hellfire torch it should actually be more.

[-Ferro-]

lol, speeder and choson are disagreeing you cant agree with both of them ^^.

Well, if you read all my post I mean you can have both smiter and mage in one build. Just remove 2 skillers and place cta in there while having Grief/exile on secondary swich. Go out of town, slap cta, Bo, remove and place grief again. Now you have a pala that deals nice damage (+6k hammers +6k foh for sure) with 2 atacks in on main swich, and a secondary melee atack if needed on secondary.

Doing this you lose some hammer and foh damage, but there are some builds, as Seederlander says, like kickers or WW sins, that can take hammers/foh very easy. You can smite them without any trouble. Vs any v/t use all time the hammer/foh swich, they can do nothing since hammers>>smite. This is what I was trying to explain.

[morotsjos]

Well, if you read all my post I mean you can have both smiter and mage in one build. Just remove 2 skillers and place cta in there while having Grief/exile on secondary swich. Go out of town, slap cta, Bo, remove and place grief again. Now you have a pala that deals nice damage (+6k hammers +6k foh for sure) with 2 atacks in on main swich, and a secondary melee atack if needed on secondary.

Doing this you lose some hammer and foh damage, but there are some builds, as Seederlander says, like kickers or WW sins, that can take hammers/foh very easy. You can smite them without any trouble. Vs any v/t use all time the hammer/foh swich, they can do nothing since hammers>>smite. This is what I was trying to explain.
How can you smite a wwsin without any trouble?



dkay: It's probably better to leave conv at base. It still forces stack, which competent players will do anyway.

[-Ferro-]

[QUOTE=morotsjos]How can you smite a wwsin without any trouble?

QUOTE]

*Sigh*

Could be I better make a guide for a hammer/foh/charge/smite pala, aka **"">>THE OMNIKNIGHT<<""**

A ww assa is easy to kill with a hammerdin. Just spam hammers and let her to come on you. Or namelock with tele and 2 hammers shes gone; if you got max block, good poison resits and over 15k def is gonna be hard for them to hit you. The ones to be smitted , the bane of the hammerdins/fohers are kickers; I would use smite vs those.

Anyway, using exile and grief (+20k def, lifetap) I think any hammerdin smiting at 7 fps would take a ww sin most likely.

[morotsjos]

[QUOTE=morotsjos]How can you smite a wwsin without any trouble?

QUOTE]

*Sigh*

Could be I better make a guide for a hammer/foh/charge/smite pala, aka **"">>THE OMNIKNIGHT<<""**

A ww assa is easy to kill with a hammerdin. Just spam hammers and let her to come on you. Or namelock with tele and 2 hammers shes gone; if you got max block, good poison resits and over 15k def is gonna be hard for them to hit you. The ones to be smitted , the bane of the hammerdins/fohers are kickers; I would use smite vs those.

Anyway, using exile and grief (+20k def, lifetap) I think any hammerdin smiting at 7 fps would take a ww sin most likely.
It doesn't sound like you've dueled any competent wwsins. Care to enlighten me how kickers are harder for hammerdins than wwsins anyway?

Lastly, while smite>>>kicks, smite<<<<<<<<<ww. Hence my question...

[GkT]

Hmm, the Mage I'm using is only FoH/Hammer.

I'm Level 98 so I have a small advantage on the Damage.

Here is the Skill allocation I'd use if I remade him:
20 Blessed Hammer
15 FoH
20 Holy Shock
20 Blessed Aim
20 Concentration

This wouldn't allow for Salvation or Meditation but my Setup gives me more than enough Res.

Here's my Setup:

Helm: 'Ber''Ber' CoA
Armor: 'Enigma' Archon Plate
Shield: 'Ber' E-Bug HoZ
Weapon: 'Spirit' Sword
Belt: Arachnid Mesh Spider Sash
Ring 1: Chaos Band (10 FCR/62 CR/62 LR/15 FR/15 PR)
Ring 2: Chaos Band
Gloves: Wizardspike Glove
Boots: Wraith Brand LPB
Amulet: Mara's Kaleidascope

Annihilus/Hellfire Torch/9x Vita Combats GCs/10x 20/5 Res SCs

9 Frame Casting is reached, so is 86 FHR.

With this, I have 280 Res All in Hell-with an addtional ~175 CR and 175 LR.

No need to swap gear for Blizz Sorcs or FoHers.

IMO, Hammer Damage is more important than FoH Damage.

[Neuroff]

ferro is the one that thinks smiters can beat barbs and that grief doesn't help barbs.

[morotsjos]

ferro is the one that thinks smiters can beat barbs and that grief doesn't help barbs.
I sorta figured...

[luis19]

well a smiter does have a much easier time vs a wwsin than vs a barb, unless they have -100 psn resist.

[morotsjos]

well a smiter does have a much easier time vs a wwsin than vs a barb, unless they have -100 psn resist.
True, but the wwsin still has the advantage. Mb+ww away with 20k ar isn't exactly fun for any smiter.

[luis19]

most wwsins cant get 20k ar, even then they are range 1 remember.

[-Ferro-]

ferro is the one that thinks smiters can beat barbs and that grief doesn't help barbs.

Dont put in my mouth words I never said.

I think an smiter can beat WW barbs many times, not than a barb would never beat an smiter.

And I never stated grief doesnt helps barbs, I just pointed out grief helps smiters much more than WW barbs if compared with weapons available before grief was released.

And if someone cant see how a kicker is much better vs hammerdins than a WW sin, well, not trying to be ofensive but you dont know too much about melee assasins.

Also many people here ar trying to show smiters as a char much more weaker than he is. I can understand you guys hate smiters and support your WW barbs no-matter what, but that doesnt matches the reality at all.

[morotsjos]

most wwsins cant get 20k ar, even then they are range 1 remember.
I thought range 2?

Anyway, my freshly built wwsin kills most smiters quite easy with 5k ar and pathetic damage. Mb+ww away = haha. When I switch to 1 angelic ring and enchant (14k ar) the only way I can possibly lose is if I screw up major (which happens since this is day 1 of playing her ^^).
With fools claw+angelic ring you get 20k ar easy, which cuts through anything like butter.



Dont put in my mouth words I never said.

I think an smiter can beat WW barbs many times, not than a barb would never beat an smiter.

And I never stated grief doesnt helps barbs, I just pointed out grief helps smiters much more than WW barbs if compared with weapons available before grief was released.

And if someone cant see how a kicker is much better vs hammerdins than a WW sin, well, not trying to be ofensive but you dont know too much about melee assasins.

Also many people here ar trying to show smiters as a char much more weaker than he is. I can understand you guys hate smiters and support your WW barbs no-matter what, but that doesnt matches the reality at all.
I have barb and wwsin in Europe NL. Bring any smiter. Account?

And no, care to explain how the hell you are able to kick a desynching hammerdin? Oh you cant? Surprise surprise...
Not all hammerdins are imbecills who stand still in their hammerfield for blindspot abuse. Sorry.

[luis19]

speederlander would concur that hammerdins are hard as hell for a kicker, prolly why his assassin is a hybrid.

i had a kicker too, i can see how to beat teleing hammerdins (blindspot) but desync will gg any kicker.

i thought claws were range 1? eitherway you have less or the same range as a smiter (most smiters use pb from what im seeing so baba has greater range). still must be a harder duel and on top of that wwsins ww slow as hell, if you mess up ur in range for smite way too long and if the smiter can move right in front of you it could be over.

[Neuroff]

Dont put in my mouth words I never said.

I think an smiter can beat WW barbs many times, not than a barb would never beat an smiter.

good barbs beat good smiters at least 90% of the time.


And I never stated grief doesnt helps barbs, I just pointed out grief helps smiters much more than WW barbs if compared with weapons available before grief was released.


Also many people here ar trying to show smiters as a char much more weaker than he is. I can understand you guys hate smiters and support your WW barbs no-matter what, but that doesnt matches the reality at all.

no, you're trying to make smiters seem stronger than they are.

[morotsjos]

speederlander would concur that hammerdins are hard as hell for a kicker, prolly why his assassin is a hybrid.

i had a kicker too, i can see how to beat teleing hammerdins (blindspot) but desync will gg any kicker.

i thought claws were range 1? eitherway you have less or the same range as a smiter (most smiters use pb from what im seeing so baba has greater range). still must be a harder duel and on top of that wwsins ww slow as hell, if you mess up ur in range for smite way too long and if the smiter can move right in front of you it could be over.
Yes, that's one of many matchups where ww is superior.

The "blindspot" is a myth as far as I'm concerned. Noone half-decent would stay stationary long enough, not to mention that he only has to WALK 0.000001 inches away to screw up everything. But ye, 1-hit-ko zerks vs pubdins are hilarious...

Good smiters always use BA (except in smite vs smite where pb is nice to counter slow). Anyway, while wwbarbs have to either use widowmaker or resort to clipping whirls (which are easier for the smiter to get inside than ww away) wwsins can rely purely on mb+ww away. Yes, they aren't as effective as barbs due to less range and damage, but they're still potent enough. Mb is also nice vs morons who like to charge around 90% of the duel and fade is lovely vs lifetap.

[ROMVS]

speederlander would concur that hammerdins are hard as hell for a kicker, prolly why his assassin is a hybrid.

i had a kicker too, i can see how to beat teleing hammerdins (blindspot) but desync will gg any kicker.

i thought claws were range 1? eitherway you have less or the same range as a smiter (most smiters use pb from what im seeing so baba has greater range). still must be a harder duel and on top of that wwsins ww slow as hell, if you mess up ur in range for smite way too long and if the smiter can move right in front of you it could be over.

luis, blizz updated the range for claws so now it's 2 although the statistic or sin people have been saying that for a while

[luis19]

luis, blizz updated the range for claws so now it's 2 although the statistic or sin people have been saying that for a while

ok, but the range is still a problem. most smiters i c are range 2 so they rarely get a hit, but a wwsin being the same range will probably get hit more

[morotsjos]

ok, but the range is still a problem. most smiters i c are range 2 so they rarely get a hit, but a wwsin being the same range will probably get hit more
Not with ww away, although sins wont hit the pally as much as the barb. I've had numerous smiters charge and charge/smite me with range 3 and they _rarely_ hit when i whirl away. If sins didn't have mindblast it would be a problem though.

[Bigrob]

if the smiter switches to defiance, the wwsin can barely even hit.

right now with grief, even without fanatcism the smiter will still dish out tremendous dmg, and wwsin has lower life compare to barb. switching to defiance only lose some dmg and speed, like 7 frame smite. But with like 60+k def wwsin is not going to hit much.

[Neuroff]

ww sins can take more smites on average because they block the smites.

[dkay]

ferro-, i know the forums are biased towrads bvcs. but ever wonder why? smite is a much cooler attack than ww imo but reality is that Barbs > smiters. only v.ts stand a chance, pure smite alone and the advantage is tipped way too far to the barbs side.

[Bigrob]

i already told u that ww is imba in this game.

[morotsjos]

if the smiter switches to defiance, the wwsin can barely even hit.

right now with grief, even without fanatcism the smiter will still dish out tremendous dmg, and wwsin has lower life compare to barb. switching to defiance only lose some dmg and speed, like 7 frame smite. But with like 60+k def wwsin is not going to hit much.
I hit 60-70k def zealots just fine with my barb. He has 13k ar.
A wwsin with 20k+ ar can hit ANYTHING in the game just fine.

[Bigrob]

I hit 60-70k def zealots just fine with my barb. He has 13k ar.
A wwsin with 20k+ ar can hit ANYTHING in the game just fine.

how though? im having trouble hitting a 30k def barb with 20k ar.

[morotsjos]

how though? im having trouble hitting a 30k def barb with 20k ar.
Ww away = auto hit vs melee...

[Bigrob]

Ww away = auto hit vs melee...

yes i know, but u cant always ww away to win...unless he keeps following u...

[oneBlast]

yes i know, but u cant always ww away to win...unless he keeps following u...

MB his butt, and he'll ww you to get out of MB lock.

Good idea?
Ps: I've played with a WWsin only once.

[morotsjos]

yes i know, but u cant always ww away to win...unless he keeps following u...
Ofc. This is why you have to do clipping whirls with barbs.
Wwsins on the other hand have the lovely skill called mind blast. No smiter will remain stationary when you start mind blasting him, and if they do it's just good for you... =)

[Ce Olba]

I hit 60-70k def zealots just fine with my barb. He has 13k ar.
A wwsin with 20k+ ar can hit ANYTHING in the game just fine.

lol, tell me how u get 60k defense? that would need like prebuffed lvl 50 holyshield, lvl 50 active defiance, all items eth with around +300% defense, and with that u would lose all the dmg u can deal. I don't believe u can get 60k defense. My smiter had 27k defense without exile with 8 pc sks, anni and torch and he had max holy shield and max defiance. and if i when ever i put on my lvl 24 defiance i had 37k defense. over 35k defense is just way too overkill.

[luis19]

lol, tell me how u get 60k defense? that would need like prebuffed lvl 50 holyshield, lvl 50 active defiance, all items eth with around +300% defense, and with that u would lose all the dmg u can deal. I don't believe u can get 60k defense. My smiter had 27k defense without exile with 8 pc sks, anni and torch and he had max holy shield and max defiance. and if i when ever i put on my lvl 24 defiance i had 37k defense. over 35k defense is just way too overkill.

reread what he said, he's talking about hittting 60k def pallys with his barb.
its not that hard, high def armors, high exile, bo switch = 3+hs cta / spirit or hoz, etc.

[morotsjos]

lol, tell me how u get 60k defense? that would need like prebuffed lvl 50 holyshield, lvl 50 active defiance, all items eth with around +300% defense, and with that u would lose all the dmg u can deal. I don't believe u can get 60k defense. My smiter had 27k defense without exile with 8 pc sks, anni and torch and he had max holy shield and max defiance. and if i when ever i put on my lvl 24 defiance i had 37k defense. over 35k defense is just way too overkill.
You can get 60-70k def pretty easily with standard items. Most serious zealots have 50-70k def.
I think the pally forum concluded that 100k+ defense was possible with extreme prebuf etc.
However, with the new ethbug armor and shield will have +50% def, hence 100k+ def should be easy to obtain with standard gear nowadays.

Dont even try to compare smiters to zealots, they're not in the same league. Smiters dont need def while it's among the most important stats for a zealot. No smiter uses eth stone and eth vortex exile, it's simply not needed.

[-Ferro-]

Dont even try to compare smiters to zealots, they're not in the same league. Smiters dont need def while it's among the most important stats for a zealot. No smiter uses eth stone and eth vortex exile, it's simply not needed.

Sorry, I dont get why smiters dont need def. I understand in smite vs smite duel def is irrelevant, but vs any other melee atack is an issue as important as for any zealot or barb.

And yes, now with eth bug armors and shield u can have 100k def easy with eth bugged duress and eth bugged exile in a pure smiter. Have any ww barb here ever dueled vs so high def smiter? I have no experience with such duels. Ive been told +60k def smiters are very hard to hit, I guess if you make an smiter clvl +95 and +100k def will be much more harder. Any input on this anyone?

Back to the topic, we should be discussing Mage vs v/t. dont we?

[dkay]

yes we did discuss it. mage > vt.

on the topic of defence, my old barb and ghost hit 40k smiters with 9k easily. people tend to forget that defence suffers from dimishing returns. now only if i can remember the formula on the % to hit.........

[Bigrob]

on the topic of defence, my old barb and ghost hit 40k smiters with 9k easily. people tend to forget that defence suffers from dimishing returns. now only if i can remember the formula on the % to hit.........

def is easier to achieve than ar doh. ><

in bvb, u will see how def is really important, so as zeal vs. zeal.

[dkay]

reason defence is so important in bvb and z v z is because your putting two EXACT same builds against each other. so the ways thier builds achieve ar and defence is what makes one setup better than the other.

but in cases like whirlwind vrs smiter, your putting up two completely different skills head to head, which is why defence doesnt matter as much.

[morotsjos]

reason defence is so important in bvb and z v z...
You mean zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz vs zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ^^

[-Ferro-]

on the topic of defence, my old barb and ghost hit 40k smiters with 9k easily. people tend to forget that defence suffers from dimishing returns. now only if i can remember the formula on the % to hit.........

%CTH=100*AR/(AR+DR)*2*Alvl/(Alvl+Dlvl)
AR: attack rating of person hitting
Dr: Defense Rating perosn being hit
Alvl: Clvl of the person hitting
Dlvl: Clvl of the person being hit

your actual chance to hit a 40k smiter with 9k barb, assuming you both are same clvl is 18%, after 75% blocking this is...4,6% . As easy as that.

I have made some calculations for a % chance to hit a char when both are same level for a rank of defense and for both 10k and 20k AR. Second colum (CTHAB) is chance to hit after 75% blocking (numbers are rounded):

AR= 10k
DEF %CTH %CTHAB
10k -50- -13-
20k -33- -8-
30k -25- -6-
40k -20- -5-
50k -17- -4-
60k -14- -4-
70k -13- -3-
80k -11- -3-
90k -10 - -3-
100k -9 - -2-
110k -8- -2-


AR=20k
DEF %CTH %CTHAB
10k -67- -17-
20k -50- -13-
30k -40- -10-
40k -33- -8-
50k -29- -7-
60k -25- -6-
70k -22- -6-
80k -20- -5-
90k -18- -5-
100k -17- -4-
110k -15- -4-

Now, whats the difference when going from 50k to 100k def ? They need 70% more attemps for hitting you the same amount of times. For one hit with 20k ar they need 14 swings when 50k def, if 100k def they need 24 swings. For 10k ar is 25 swings (50k def) vs 43 (100k def). Strong dimissing returns? Not that strong at all.

Back to the dueling scene, last night I was dueling with my BvC barb. Most smiters where just crapp and I owned them just ww away, lol, they charged on me. But then there came a pala, smiter, using teleport as crazy. He was chasing me like if he was a wind druid and me a bowazon, you know what a mean. He told me he had 75% fcr and all time namelock and tele, really hard to beat. He was using grief and exile. But Im not an expert with barbs, you now, though my gear is just nice. I wanted to let you all know.

Fer

[dkay]

"AR=20k
DEF %CTH %CTHAB
10k -67- -17-
20k -50- -13-
30k -40- -10-
40k -33- -8-
50k -29- -7-
60k -25- -6-
70k -22- -6-
80k -20- -5-
90k -18- -5-
100k -17- -4-
110k -15- -4-"

thanks for the info.

the difference between you hitting a 50k def smiter and 100k is 12%

with 50k, a barb has about 1/3 chance hitting which is damn good in my opinion. with 100k the barb has 1/5. now assuming that the pally needs to make MAJOR gear sacrifice (which means low dr most likely) and the fact that whirlwind attacks at 4 frames, i think id probably WANT to duel a 100k def smiter than a 40k since you can kill them easier due to low dr, but this is just my opinion.

[luis19]

"AR=20k
DEF %CTH %CTHAB
10k -67- -17-
20k -50- -13-
30k -40- -10-
40k -33- -8-
50k -29- -7-
60k -25- -6-
70k -22- -6-
80k -20- -5-
90k -18- -5-
100k -17- -4-
110k -15- -4-"

thanks for the info.

the difference between you hitting a 50k def smiter and 100k is 12%

with 50k, a barb has about 1/3 chance hitting which is damn good in my opinion. with 100k the barb has 1/5. now assuming that the pally needs to make MAJOR gear sacrifice (which means low dr most likely) and the fact that whirlwind attacks at 4 frames, i think id probably WANT to duel a 100k def smiter than a 40k since you can kill them easier due to low dr, but this is just my opinion.

and they most likely have much lower life since they would need high strength requirement gear and high dex for exile.

[dkay]

ya because hitting that kind of defence requires no enigma ><

this is the biggest downside of having high defence. which is why i think 20-30k defence is fine compared to 60 or 100k.

[valentino]

T/V with defensive play style has better chance against ww barb than pure smiter? (using environmental advantage :uhhuh: )

I hate that barb always have more life than me :P

[-Ferro-]

the difference between you hitting a 50k def smiter and 100k is 12%


Wrong.
Be carefull when doing maths with the % things. 29% compared with 17% is not 12% higher. You can say it is 12 points higer as much, which gives little information. The difference between 29% and 17% is 70%, which is a lot. Also have in mind the blocking, all those chances are reduced by 1/4. So 29% gives a real chance of 7.25% , and 17% after blocking gives a final 4.25%. The 70% difference stands. And now, again, it is a big mistake thinking the difference is an small 3%, like when going 50k def he hits me 10 times in a given number of atacks and when 100k he will hit me 9.7 times, this is totally wrong.

For 50k he will need 14 attacks to land a sucessfull hit.
For 100k he needs 23 atacks for targeting once.
And this is the only way to aproach it. If it worths or not, I have no idea at all, most of you have larger experience on this kind of duels.

Fer

[Bigrob]

Wrong.
Be carefull when doing maths with the % things. 29% compared with 17% is not 12% higher. You can say it is 12 points higer as much, which gives little information. The difference between 29% and 17% is 70%, which is a lot. Also have in mind the blocking, all those chances are reduced by 1/4. So 29% gives a real chance of 7.25% , and 17% after blocking gives a final 4.25%. The 70% difference stands. And now, again, it is a big mistake thinking the difference is an small 3%, like when going 50k def he hits me 10 times in a given number of atacks and when 100k he will hit me 9.7 times, this is totally wrong.

For 50k he will need 14 attacks to land a sucessfull hit.
For 100k he needs 23 atacks for targeting once.
And this is the only way to aproach it. If it worths or not, I have no idea at all, most of you have larger experience on this kind of duels.

Fer

ughhh, i think u misunderstood what the % means.

if u use zeal (which has 5 attacks) and ur chance to hit ur opponent is 23%, that means 4 attacks will be missed and 1 attack will be landed during each zeal. 5 x (1-.23) = 3.85. 5-3.85 = 1.15, round up.

for 100k to need 23 attacks to land a hit once make no sense, that means 1/23. 1/23 = .0435 (round up) = 4% 23% = 23/100 = .23

[morotsjos]

ughhh, i think u misunderstood what the % means.

if u use zeal (which has 5 attacks) and ur chance to hit ur opponent is 23%, that means 4 attacks will be missed and 1 attack will be landed during each zeal. 5 x (1-.23) = 3.85. 5-3.85 = 1.15, round up.

for 100k to need 23 attacks to land a hit once make no sense, that means 1/23. 1/23 = .0435 (round up) = 4% 23% = 23/100 = .23
Do you even have the slightest clue of what you're talking about? Cause I dont...


dkay/luis: This kind of smiter can still keep 46% dr and 4k+ life with ease, especially with torch. Then again we just need to use angelics to reduce the def-advantage while not losing enough damage to make a difference.



Also, forget any kind of t/v reaching this defense. The foh-damage would be pathetic.

[Bigrob]

Do you even have the slightest clue of what you're talking about? Cause I dont...


dkay/luis: This kind of smiter can still keep 46% dr and 4k+ life with ease, especially with torch. Then again we just need to use angelics to reduce the def-advantage while not losing enough damage to make a difference.



Also, forget any kind of t/v reaching this defense. The foh-damage would be pathetic.

watch my math genius skill:

let say ur using normal attack, with 20k ar hitting a 50k def opponent. (both has the same lvl90) ur chance to hit is 100*20,000/(20,000 + 50,000)*2*90/(90+90) = 28.57% = 28% rounded.

28% = 28/100 = 7/25. so u will land 7 hits with every 25 swings on a 50k def opponent.

So u will miss 4 attacks on every 5 attacks per round. (or swing) So basically, you will miss 4 attacks and hit ur opponent once when every 5 attacks is made. (Remember, this is probability. In real dueling the game does not follow this method) ur probability is 28%, which is 28/100, or 7/25. u will be able to landed 7 blows on every 25 attacks, and then the rest of them are missed.

Using zeal will speed up this process, so as the rest of the multiple attacks skill.

what ferro said is that u will need 14 hits to be able to land a hit on a 50k def opponent with 20k ar. 1 over 14 hits = 1/14. In perctange that equals .0714285714 (decimal) = 7% to hit a 50k def opponent, which is total a different number. 7% does not equal to 28%.

[morotsjos]

watch my math genius skill:

let say ur using normal attack, with 20k ar hitting a 50k def opponent. (both has the same lvl90) ur chance to hit is 100*20,000/(20,000 + 50,000)*2*90/(90+90) = 28.57% = 28% rounded.

28% = 28/100 = 7/25. so u will land 7 hits with every 25 swings on a 50k def opponent.

So u will miss 4 attacks on every 5 attacks per round. (or swing) So basically, you will miss 4 attacks and hit ur opponent once when every 5 attacks is made. (Remember, this is probability. In real dueling the game does not follow this method) ur probability is 28%, which is 28/100, or 7/25. u will be able to landed 7 blows on every 25 attacks, and then the rest of them are missed.

Using zeal will speed up this process, so as the rest of the multiple attacks skill.

what ferro said is that u will need 14 hits to be able to land a hit on a 50k def opponent with 20k ar. 1 over 14 hits = 1/14. In perctange that equals .0714285714 (decimal) = 7% to hit a 50k def opponent, which is total different number. 7% does not equal to 28%.
Made much more sense than your previous post, thanks.

Ferro is calculating with 75% block, which means that 28% -> 7% after block.

[Bigrob]

caculating blocking and def is a separate thing.

28% chance to hit is 7/25.

during THAT 7 hits and then u factor in blocks, not total number. cuz block will be made only if the attack passes through defense.

so 7 x (1-.75) = 1.75 = 2 attacks, round up. 7-2 = 5. so 5 attacks will be blocked and 2 attacks will hit successfully.

[-Ferro-]

28% = 28/100 = 7/25. so u will land 7 hits with every 25 swings on a 50k def opponent.

So u will miss 4 attacks on every 5 attacks per round. (or swing)

Yeah, we are talking the same. You are 100% right, ALTHOUG

The only thing you are missing here is the BLOCKING (what, if you read my post carefuly, it is explained).

So cut your chances by 1/4. One of every 5 zeal will land, and 3 of every this "ones" will be blocked. So the real chance to inflict damage is 7/100, not 7/25.

[Bigrob]

Yeah, we are talking the same. You are 100% right, ALTHOUG

The only thing you are missing here is the BLOCKING (what, if you read my post carefuly, it is explained).

So cut your chances by 1/4. One of every 5 zeal will land, and 3 of every this "ones" will be blocked. So the real chance to inflict damage is 7/100, not 7/25.

nope, block wont be made if u miss ur opponent. If u miss, nothing will happen. (no block animation) So those 3 attacks wont be blocked, since it's already missed.

The landed 7 attacks, 5 of them will be blocked and 2 of them will hit.

[-Ferro-]

nope, block wont be made if u miss ur opponent. If u miss, nothing will happen. (no block animation) So those 3 attacks wont be blocked, since it's already missed.

The landed 7 attacks, 5 of them will be blocked and 2 of them will hit.

Yes, thats exactly what Im trying to explain. At the end, of the 7 successfull hits, only 2 of them will inflict damage. Thats why I say chance to inflict damage is 7/100, not 7/25, the last is due both def and blocking.

[Bigrob]

ic, but maybe the 7% thing is wrong. cuz if u do 7/25 x 1/4 thats like counting that only 7 attacks will be made in 100 attacks, which is weird.

all i know is that block and def calculating is separated.

[-Ferro-]

Someone summon RTB plz :lol:

hey dudes, nice thread, isnt it? :thumbsup:


"...a little less conversation and more action..."
Elvis Prestley

Have fun!

[GkT]

Yeah this is totally on-topic. :D

Oh well, it's still interesting to read.

[dkay]

morotsjos: im curious, what is the pallies setup?

[Pravda]

morotsjos: im curious, what is the pallies setup?

morotsjos only uses cracked ethereal items

[morotsjos]

morotsjos only uses cracked ethereal items
Hi Martin. Tired of that other board again? ^^

(omg stfu about my cracked gear plz...giff free?)

[morotsjos]

morotsjos: im curious, what is the pallies setup?
Setup for what? Specifiy please, I've made more than one post here... =)

[De4dEyE]

I've read around the forums about one of you guys [mcm/morotsjos/luis/blobs/notsure/fillintheblank] having a setup made for V\T's specifically, one that was enough to make it a one sided duel. Other than some absorb and a Doom, is there anything else needed to deal with one?

And no, I'm not looking for an 'uberezpkcraimorenubggthx' kinda build/setup, just wondering what kind equip was used. :)

[luis19]

I've read around the forums about one of you guys [mcm/morotsjos/luis/blobs/notsure/fillintheblank] having a setup made for V\T's specifically, one that was enough to make it a one sided duel. Other than some absorb and a Doom, is there anything else needed to deal with one?

And no, I'm not looking for an 'uberezpkcraimorenubggthx' kinda build/setup, just wondering what kind equip was used. :)

mcm came up with it and i stole it.

berber coa
fort/duress
grief/beast (bo weps and to doom flash if needed, also u can switch beast for doom to kill their smite)
2xravens (prolly can switch for a high resist ring if you have the dex to use hel'd widowmaker without a raven)
high LR boots
dracs
tgods
widowmaker hel'd

you can use lite resist scs with good 2nd mods like life/fhr and fade prebuff to further negate their foh if its really strong.

i've found this setup to work very well vs mages too

[dkay]

in west we have rings that gives 40 fire and 40 light resist with 10% fcr and some life mana. then we also have fcr rings specified against fohers that have 60+ light resist. if you are on west use one of those.

[morotsjos]

mcm came up with it and i stole it.
Rofl.


dkay: what pally setup?

[-Ferro-]

Wth...

Who is playing on Europe non ladder here? I want to kill you all who are spaming on this thread :lol:

[Pravda]

mcm came up with it and i stole it.

berber coa
fort/duress
grief/beast (bo weps and to doom flash if needed, also u can switch beast for doom to kill their smite)
2xravens (prolly can switch for a high resist ring if you have the dex to use hel'd widowmaker without a raven)
high LR boots
dracs
tgods
widowmaker hel'd

you can use lite resist scs with good 2nd mods like life/fhr and fade prebuff to further negate their foh if its really strong.

i've found this setup to work very well vs mages too

Enigma is a must for any barb who duels a v/t imo. You assume that the v/t will play offensive against a barb. Just out of curiosity, what if the v/t uses widowmaker himself? Let's say:

dracs and gores for ow
15dr verdungo, berber coa for dr
fortitude or even a ed/ias armor for ed

Switch 1:
Um Widowmaker

Switch 2:
CtA
Exile for tap

You don't have any teleport so how can you catch a shift-charging v/t, unless you're lucky with a desynch whirl? The v/t has the advantage don't you think? Take a look at this:

1) fana gives more damage and faster attack than the barb
2) you only have 31%dr while the v/t has 46%dr
3) the v/t has life tap
4) the v/t can and will block the majority of your shoots. You, on the other hand can't block anything since you don't have a shield.

[morotsjos]

Wth...

Who is playing on Europe non ladder here? I want to kill you all who are spaming on this thread :lol:
I am. My barb isn't ready yet, I had to sacrifice his charms to feed my other chars. My wwsin could put up a good fight against any pure smiter if that's what you had in mind ^^

[Choson]

What v/t will use a widow it will cripple them thats when u stack light res and just put the enigma back on.. with mcms gear setup its bacially impossible for an average v/t to win

[GkT]

mcm came up with it and i stole it.

berber coa
fort/duress
grief/beast (bo weps and to doom flash if needed, also u can switch beast for doom to kill their smite)
2xravens (prolly can switch for a high resist ring if you have the dex to use hel'd widowmaker without a raven)
high LR boots
dracs
tgods
widowmaker hel'd

you can use lite resist scs with good 2nd mods like life/fhr and fade prebuff to further negate their foh if its really strong.

i've found this setup to work very well vs mages too
Without Enigma, how do you plan to do well when the Pally starts Desynching with Hammers?

[Choson]

Without Enigma, how do you plan to do well when the Pally starts Desynching with Hammers?

"Blows the Dirt off the Widowmaker"

[luis19]

Without Enigma, how do you plan to do well when the Pally starts Desynching with Hammers?

since when did you need to teleport vs a hammerdin? its not like you ever attack them, if they are any good anyways.
if they get too close to you, you do alot more damage using fort/duress so its not a good idea. if they stay away they will get owned by 1.5k GA.

pravada - if they use widow i'd just switch back to nigma. they would have low smite damage so it would be a far too easy duel. if they used grief they would have low life.

[Pravda]

What v/t will use a widow it will cripple them thats when u stack light res and just put the enigma back on.. with mcms gear setup its bacially impossible for an average v/t to win

I'm not talking average v/t. I'm talking elite. Against a ranger the barb will need teleport or else he's screwed unless he's lucky to get a desynch hit in. So why shouldn't the v/t use a widowmaker against a barb without teleport then? Obviously if the barb uses enigma, then the whole duel changes...

[dkay]

Enigma is a must for any barb who duels a v/t imo. You assume that the v/t will play offensive against a barb. Just out of curiosity, what if the v/t uses widowmaker himself? Let's say:

dracs and gores for ow
15dr verdungo, berber coa for dr
fortitude or even a ed/ias armor for ed

Switch 1:
Um Widowmaker

Switch 2:
CtA
Exile for tap

You don't have any teleport so how can you catch a shift-charging v/t, unless you're lucky with a desynch whirl? The v/t has the advantage don't you think? Take a look at this:

1) fana gives more damage and faster attack than the barb
2) you only have 31%dr while the v/t has 46%dr
3) the v/t has life tap
4) the v/t can and will block the majority of your shoots. You, on the other hand can't block anything since you don't have a shield.

so instead of cta/spirit on 1 and grief + watever on the other. your going to give the v.t a crap weapon? screw shooting at him with widow, my barb would just mow the hell outta him. smiters have a hard enough time WITH grief, more without.

if hes shooting gas within even a screen away. you can also just leap the crap outta him until he gets pissed and switches tactics.

[-Ferro-]

Do you guys have realized how ridiculous looks a barb with a bow? He does not looks serious!

[Pravda]

so instead of cta/spirit on 1 and grief + watever on the other. your going to give the v.t a crap weapon? screw shooting at him with widow, my barb would just mow the hell outta him. smiters have a hard enough time WITH grief, more without.

if hes shooting gas within even a screen away. you can also just leap the crap outta him until he gets pissed and switches tactics.

Read one more time what I wrote. I don't think you understood. A barb without enigma against a ranger....

[HandofElysium]

Do you guys have realized how ridiculous looks a barb with a bow? He does not looks serious!

Does it matter? When I have hammerdin calling me a ***** cause I'm using a bow on my BvA the bottom line is I won and they whine about it.

It's too bad thorns doesn't work like it did long ago because if did no way a barb could beat a thorns/foh

[morotsjos]

It's too bad thorns doesn't work like it did long ago because if did no way a barb could beat a thorns/foh
Zerk?........

[HandofElysium]

Zerk?........
Very hard when the pally is charging around.

[morotsjos]

Very hard when the pally is charging around.
True. Then again foh could just be absorbed.

[dkay]

Read one more time what I wrote. I don't think you understood. A barb without enigma against a ranger....

ok. i remember having a smiter that had a bow. he did about 1.3k damage which is pretty crap. my barb did 1.4k without fort. now lets see. its a pallies 1.3k ga with OW and 4k life against a barb with 1.4k ga with OW and over EIGHT THOUSAND LIFE. DR should be the same on both. you said something about block. a bvc barb can hit over 120 dex with simple gear switches. put that and a sanc and bam, 50% block at level 90. you can get more if you really wanted to by switching boots and grief to ebotd Z if you want.

[mcm]

Enough blabbing, one of you V/T proponents can fight me and we'll see what happens.

[Choson]

Read one more time what I wrote. I don't think you understood. A barb without enigma against a ranger....

The barb just puts th eenigma back on end of story

[Pravda]

ok. i remember having a smiter that had a bow. he did about 1.3k damage which is pretty crap. my barb did 1.4k without fort. now lets see. its a pallies 1.3k ga with OW and 4k life against a barb with 1.4k ga with OW and over EIGHT THOUSAND LIFE. DR should be the same on both. you said something about block. a bvc barb can hit over 120 dex with simple gear switches. put that and a sanc and bam, 50% block at level 90. you can get more if you really wanted to by switching boots and grief to ebotd Z if you want.

There is no way a barb will do more damage with a bow. A v/t has high level fana and will shoot faster too. 4klife is very very low. It would be more around 4.9-5.1k life with proper gear. More with buff. DR wouldn't be the same. The barb has berber coa and that's it, because he needs tgods, right? And 8k barb life? With a lot of buff maybe. And we both know who regenerates life faster.

What I pointed out was simply that a barb needs enigma against a v/t. Not that v/t > barb. Mcm you want to duel a v/t with a bow without enigma? I'm game if you can find someone to host a game that doesn't lag. I don't live in america so maybe someone in europe.

[mcm]

It would be more around 4.9-5.1k life with proper gear.

5k life Paladin... good one.

Why lie?

[HandofElysium]

True. Then again foh could just be absorbed.

absorb then the pally can charge and ww away isn't going to work becasue of thorns but ...who cares about theroies because blizzard isn't going to change it anyway... sigh...

[Pravda]

5k life Paladin... good one.

Why lie?

Apparently you haven't dueled any high life v/t. My v/t has 5023life with too much dex with stormsheild setup (no prebuff). If I rebuilt I'd have a lot more. Doubt me? I don't care. Just don't be naive and think all v/ts have exile vortex, coa, and 4000life -_-

[ROMVS]

Apparently you haven't dueled any high life v/t. My v/t has 5023life with too much dex with stormsheild setup (no prebuff). If I rebuilt I'd have a lot more. Doubt me? I don't care. Just don't be naive and think all v/ts have exile vortex, coa, and 4000life -_-

I wish I had my high life combats. I can only get 4.4k life at the moment with 5 bo cta. I need 6! :D

[dkay]

i still believe a bvc will win without enigma. why? because i have dueled good v.ts i know how scary they can get. you have never dueled a good bvc(this is an assumption since i dont know any bvcs on europe). for all i care one can leap you against the wall. disabling you to shoot then slowly aprroach and long whirl. even with 5k life the baba has over 3k more.

id like to see a screenshot of your over 5k life. not that im calling you a lier but my pally had base strength, low dex from hoz and invent full of 20 life scs. achieving max block and everything and i only got out 4k life.

by the way what is your v.t complete stat and damage pravda? im curious.

[mrJ]

Here's my own V/T to help show it's not as rare as it sounds, granted this is full svs gear to maximize hp so I'm missing some res, cbf and block.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v718/marcuscjones1985/Screenshot248.jpg

[Pravda]

i still believe a bvc will win without enigma. why? because i have dueled good v.ts i know how scary they can get. you have never dueled a good bvc(this is an assumption since i dont know any bvcs on europe). for all i care one can leap you against the wall. disabling you to shoot then slowly aprroach and long whirl. even with 5k life the baba has over 3k more.

id like to see a screenshot of your over 5k life. not that im calling you a lier but my pally had base strength, low dex from hoz and invent full of 20 life scs. achieving max block and everything and i only got out 4k life.

I don't play on Europe. I've always been on east and I have dueled good bvc barbs. I'm not saying v/t > barb but I definitely believe a barb without tele would run into major trouble against a v/t with bow. I can't see how leap would be such a useful thing against a paladin that mostly charges around shooting arrows from 1.5-2 screens away. I can duel you on open if you want. The only problem would be lag since I assume you live on the west coast. By the way, how do you get 8k+life on a barb. I figured 7.1-7.3k life sounds more realistic. That is, if you don't prebuff.

What would a screenie prove? I know people would accuse me of fixing it so why bother? Make one on open and see for yourself.

[mrJ]

I've fought 8.4k life bvcs on west, it's a lot of buffing obviously.

[morotsjos]

id like to see a screenshot of your over 5k life. not that im calling you a lier but my pally had base strength, low dex from hoz and invent full of 20 life scs. achieving max block and everything and i only got out 4k life.
You must have done something terribly wrong since you get ~4k life @ lvl 95 with PLAIN skillers.

[Pravda]

by the way what is your v.t complete stat and damage pravda? im curious.

Don't know the smite damage since it's hidden and I've never bothered to calculate it. The Foh damage varies obviously depending on what I wear. I think it's like 3k-3.6k. I made my v/t for v/t vs. v/t duels so I expect people to negate conviction and use max light res items. I use:

Jah, Ber, Lo Shako
15/30 BerBer CoA
Enigma
1.5lpl/30res sup Fortitude Archon
20ias,3ll,8cb,15str,14dex,11life,26res light legit crafted sharkskin gloves
40/15/13 Verdungo
399/37 Grief Phase
394/37 Grief Zerk (looking for 400/35+ -_-)
Tgods
Jah Stormshield
Ber up Swordback Hold
113res all Sanctuary Sacred Rondache
43res eth Exile Sacred Rondache
65life Waterwalk
D2C Boots
1.08 Highlords
+2pal,16str,12dex,41life,15res cold,light,fire,20res psn rare legit ammy
+3combat/100life ammy
250/20 Raven
5%BK ring
19str,15dex,30res light, 28res cold, 9res psn rare ring

44,44,42,40,40,40,40,40,40 Paladin Combat
20life/11res lightx10
20/20 Anni
20/20 Paladin torch

spirit and 6/6/x CtA on switch

I could transfer a perfect griffons and other items over too but I don't see what that would do. I guess the only thing I'm missing is a widowmaker.

[Bigrob]

Don't know the smite damage since it's hidden and I've never bothered to calculate it. The Foh damage varies obviously depending on what I wear. I think it's like 3k-3.6k. I made my v/t for v/t vs. v/t duels so I expect people to negate conviction and use max light res items. I use:

Jah, Ber, Lo Shako
15/30 BerBer CoA
Enigma
1.5lpl/30res sup Fortitude Archon
20ias,3ll,8cb,15str,14dex,11life,26res light legit crafted sharkskin gloves
40/15/13 Verdungo
399/37 Grief Phase
394/37 Grief Zerk (looking for 400/35+ -_-)
Tgods
Jah Stormshield
Ber up Swordback Hold
113res all Sanctuary Sacred Rondache
43res eth Exile Sacred Rondache
65life Waterwalk
D2C Boots
1.08 Highlords
+2pal,16str,12dex,41life,15res cold,light,fire,20res psn rare legit ammy
+3combat/100life ammy
250/20 Raven
5%BK ring
19str,15dex,30res light, 28res cold, 9res psn rare ring

44,44,42,40,40,40,40,40,40 Paladin Combat
20life/11res lightx10
20/20 Anni
20/20 Paladin torch

spirit and 6/6/x CtA on switch

I could transfer a perfect griffons and other items over too but I don't see what that would do. I guess the only thing I'm missing is a widowmaker.

that is one sick v/t there.

Btw, why u prefer waterwalk over gore? gore got ow and ds which works good on smite and perfect for charging.

And waht that many shakos with different runes? :)

[Choson]

Pravda your on east duel luis he is like #4 or 5 BvC on east

[Phyrexial]

that is one sick v/t there.

Btw, why u prefer waterwalk over gore? gore got ow and ds which works good on smite and perfect for charging.

And waht that many shakos with different runes? :)
Perhaps I'm misreading you, but ds doesn't work with smite. OW does, but not DS. OW probably isn't that much of an issue for smite vs smite duels as well. I can't imagine the duels lasting that long with Grief around.

Waterwalks in addition to the nice boost in life also grant +15 dex which translates to 3 x 15 = 45 more life if those saved stats are going into life.

[Bigrob]

then why not eth sand trek? :uhhuh:

the ds works on charge.

[morotsjos]

then why not eth sand trek? :uhhuh:

the ds works on charge.
Because treks are useless? Vit doesn't multiply by bo & fhr isn't needed.

[Pravda]

Pravda your on east duel luis he is like #4 or 5 BvC on east

You want me to duel v/t vs. barb? I can duel him if he wants to, but I know barb has the advantage, so what is there for me to prove? Btw, where did you get that ranking from? Jsp? Why don't you duel me on open instead. You, barb with no enigma, me v/t with widowmaker. Just have someone copy our realm characters. Sounds good?

[Choson]

You want me to duel v/t vs. barb? I can duel him if he wants to, but I know barb has the advantage, so what is there for me to prove? Btw, where did you get that ranking from? Jsp? Why don't you duel me on open instead. You, barb with no enigma, me v/t with widowmaker. Just have someone copy our realm characters. Sounds good?

No he clams to be #1 I just like to make him mad My BvC is on east but he is kinda naked on the side note a good BvC isn't really a BvC without a enigm ain almost every situation

[dkay]

I've fought 8.4k life bvcs on west, it's a lot of buffing obviously.

prebuff on barbs dont take too long -_- just like a helm and ring switch haha.

sojstorm: ya maybe its because my pally was only level 83 >< i tend to forget that v.ts need to be at very high levels. (i stopped early since mine was a hammerdin)

id gladly play you open but im still in trouble looking for a d2 original without buying it. i guess your best bet is trying luis and telling him to not use enigma, dunno if he knows how to play like that though.

[dkay]

I've fought 8.4k life bvcs on west, it's a lot of buffing obviously.

whats your v.ts name? and which barbs ar eyou talking about? idont know too many other good bvcs on west ;/

[Choson]

prebuff on barbs dont take too long -_- just like a helm and ring switch haha.

sojstorm: ya maybe its because my pally was only level 83 >< i tend to forget that v.ts need to be at very high levels. (i stopped early since mine was a hammerdin)

id gladly play you open but im still in trouble looking for a d2 original without buying it. i guess your best bet is trying luis and telling him to not use enigma, dunno if he knows how to play like that though.

Luis is a noob who get sownt by my PvM shakodin

[luis19]

maybe ill duel him but im busy nowdays. dont think i can beat a vt using widow w/o enigma since they can play mass def

[mrJ]

whats your v.ts name? and which barbs ar eyou talking about? idont know too many other good bvcs on west ;/Virtuoso_XII

Perhaps I was too hasty using "bvcs", it was more like one bvc that I know has that many hp when buffed and that's Atlas. (Also known as Atheist.)

[Choson]

maybe ill duel him but im busy nowdays. dont think i can beat a vt using widow w/o enigma since they can play mass def

Dodge more please kk thx

[morotsjos]

dont think i can beat a vt using widow w/o enigma since they can play mass def
Perhaps that was Pravdas whole point before everyone started whining?

ROFL @ this thread, I mean;
"what about if the pala uses widow too?"
"then the barb use enigma"
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz anyone?

[Bigrob]

good god, let just say that pally uses widow is not going to work on barb.

[morotsjos]

good god, let just say that pally uses widow is not going to work on barb.
Based on your own experience? Pally with widow >>>>>>>>> non-enigma barb. Period. The pally wont even have to desynch...

[Bigrob]

thats non-enigma barb, all bvc barbs will use enigma, cant change that.

[GkT]

Yeah...so Mages pretty much own V/Ts...

Sorry for this OT spam, just wanted to let you all know.

/End OT :uhhuh: :lol:

[morotsjos]

thats non-enigma barb, all bvc barbs will use enigma, cant change that.
But SIGH... Did you even read this thread?

[Bigrob]

of course i read, and i think is bull.

maybe i can use the enigma but just not tele, i can still be able to do it.

[morotsjos]

of course i read, and i think is bull.

maybe i can use the enigma but just not tele, i can still be able to do it.
So how are you going to catch a desynch-charging paladin without tele? Oh you cant? Thought so...

[Bigrob]

hey, getting insane frw with ww dysench still have a chacne to catch a charing paladin.

[morotsjos]

hey, getting insane frw with ww dysench still have a chacne to catch a charing paladin.
And how do you plain getting that "insane" frw? Charms? Goodbye life...

Even with that much frw/desynch you're a total lucker if you hit the pally once. Think about it, it's totally random. You have no clue of where he is (most likely 2-3 screens away) while he's constantly pumping you with arrows. Impossible duel? Hell yes.

[sheepe2004]

And how do you plain getting that "insane" frw? Charms? Goodbye life...

Even with that much frw/desynch you're a total lucker if you hit the pally once. Think about it, it's totally random. You have no clue of where he is (most likely 2-3 screens away) while he's constantly pumping you with arrows. Impossible duel? Hell yes.

ww-lock would mean your always moving in the right direction... still need far too much faster run though....

[morotsjos]

ww-lock would mean your always moving in the right direction... still need far too much faster run though....
Heh, while he's charging away and pumping you with arrows that always hits. No thanks =)

[luis19]

who said he has to use the widowmaker the entire time. if he did and you wwlocked, theres a good chance you'd kill him since no block on widow.

but if he knows ur wwlocking, he can just switch to a shield and smite you, if he uses grief he can prolly get a good chunk of life off you if u ww locked him.

[Choson]

Here I'll end the topic pretty easy ill take my enigma off vs a v/t run around like a meat head after you untill you kill me. Then I put my Enimga back on and 10-0 you and say "KRAI CUZ OWNT" gg topic over

[dkay]

agreed.
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