Maphack: Scapegoat or a REAL problem? [Archive]

Ubiquitous Chaos

17-07-2005, 07:01

Before I say anything, as of several years now, I do not use or condone maphack. I Was a maphacker a long time back though, and that came around full circle several times over. In any case, that's long over. On to the point.

On this forum, over the months/years, I've seen so much of ''maphack is such an unfair 3rd party program to us legit players!'' followed by ''people who use maphack have no skill of their own.''

My question: Are these people just using maphack as a scapegoat to make up for a lack of wealth or something similar? Think abouting, what significant advantage does it give over legit players? MFing; you (a legit player) and a maphacker start an MF run on Meph at the same time, now of course the maphacker probably finds the Durance level 3 first, gets to meph, and starts the attack. Shortly after, you find it and kill Meph. The maphacker has started game #2, a series of seconds -- maybe 30, 40, even a minute later. Lets say the maphacker's run took 3 minutes, yours took 3 minutes and 30 seconds. There is a 30 second difference. Although that can add up, it still isn't going to amount to an amount of runs that would make a huge difference in wealth between you and that of the maphacker's. If you think having a bit less from MFing than an MFer using maphack is enough of a reason to blame MH for wealth you don't have, you should think again. Lets look a bit deeper into the MF aspect and say that you two are MFing for PvP items. Are those few extra runs enough to afford the maphacker anymore than you? Did those extra runs earn him enough to get that godly perfect Fathom? Unless it dropped for him, no. And if those few extra runs were all it took for that Fathom to drop, what are the odds that it wouldn't have dropped regardless of whether or not he maphacked?

As far as exp running goes, if you're partied with a maphacker, and he finds an exp shrine first, it's not gonna provide enough exp for him to suddenly take a 30 level advantage over you unless he was already there. If he found a boss pack before you could...you were probably not following your team very closely or in town. If it's a Baal run, and he spots a boss pack, he isn't up in the throne where MOST of the exp is at. Competing on ladder for a spot as one of the first level 99's is about the only reasonable excuse I can see for putting such flak on maphackers, but still, it usually isn't enough to make a discernable difference, and in any case, shouldn't botters take the brunt of that anger towards illegit/3rd party programs since they actually CAN make a difference in a big way? A maphacker is still a human being playing the game, that maphacker still has the same limits as far how long they can [stand to] play.

Point: Stop moaning about maphack so much please, it is not the root of your problems. I can understand wanting to keep DII legit, but worrying about a problem as minute as maphack is just stupid, instead, keep yourself legit, know your legit, accept that there are maphackers, accept that they aren't harming you, and know you're a good person for staying legit.

-Chaos, legit and proud

Orphan

17-07-2005, 07:19

You forgot to mention several other aspects that MH provides to people. Sure, it lets them see the map, and what shrines are where, but it also lets them see monster packs and see items on other players.

Additionally, I believe some also let them have runes high-lighted when they drop, as to not miss them, not to mention the screenshot that was posted in another thread here actually showed the MH telling the player where the set items dropped (NorthEast).

So, in addition to what you've mentioned, now you have a player who can spot runes (like, oh I don't know, Zod?) before you do and see what equipment you have in duels or for pk'ing purposes (which, btw, they can make a beeline to their victims because of MH; What happened to the thrill of the hunt?). These people will never get surprised by a boss monster pack either, and as such, theoretically their builds can be significantly weaker than the legit player.

And lets face it, even on Hell difficulty, the game isn't that difficult. There's nothing to justify the use of hacks. Using hacks in D2 is like playing a water-downed game with training wheels.

Edit: If this game was meant to allow the player to be able to remember (or know) the way to certain locations, then Blizz wouldn't have used the random map feature (which MH kills completely).

oscarmk1

17-07-2005, 07:19

I hate maphack, and all cheats in diablo ii. What else can i say

DjSlayer

17-07-2005, 07:24

For what I've heard there is an option to turn of death animation, this animation causes a little lag and this is enough for the maphacker to get a huge advantage over me for the dropps. This is also why I now only run solo Baal (actually WSK 2+3+throne+Baal).

- D.J.

Ubiquitous Chaos

17-07-2005, 08:44

DJ and Orphan, you both make very good points, especially in pointing out certain aspects that I didn't cover. The only point that I can really argue effectively against is the ability to view a player's gear. In most cases, one can find out what an opponent is using based around common sense and what happens within the first duel, unless they switch equipment w/o a pattern. MH speeds up that process that process in any that doesn't matter in a game at all. As far as PKing though, it can provide a genuine problem. Glad to see some people are saying more than just ''The maphackers do more MF runs than me so they have godly items and I don't'' logic. (=

Dawnmaster

17-07-2005, 09:23

I think you might have made a mistake in your MH when MF part?
You assume that the MH does 3min over a Meph run, and a legit player 3min 30sec?
I think the difference is a lot bigger, MH find the next lvl in about max 10secs, legit players can take up to a minute. The killing of Mpeh doesn't take a minute, so to round things down: MH do a Meph run in 1 minute, legit players take 2 minuts.
Now, those are significant numbers imo, the same person can operate at twice the speed?

Also, most people who use MH give constant comment on your equip, not knowing why you use it and laughing at you, or wanting an item from it?
Although this is not a direct problem from MH, it wouldn't be as worse if MH didn't exist.

And apart from the rune thingy, which Orphan pointed out, they also have a feature that'll allow them to see howmany sockets an item has. In cowruns this is devestating, as I have to pick up every item to check if it has a decent number of sockets. They don't have to waste time with the bad items and immediatelly get the good socket ones? I call this a major advantage.

Last but not least, there are some special game forms, where you play together first and then duel with the skills you wish to unlock, no allpowerfull gear or chars, pure skill and strategy. The first time I tried this for real, one of the players used MH to get to all the exp shrines, meaning in the end, when most people where somewhere between lvl9-11, he was lvl14. Now, call me stupid, but in such lld, having both a higher skill advantage, and a few skill points more to spend...?

Personally, I don't flame at MH as long as people don't use it when I'm around or in a contest against me or ask for when to find it orso. (we only moan here when people want to proove MH is good or ask for where to find it)

The only problem isn't scapegoat or real problem, people who use MH are just plain lazy. :rolleyes:

Fluffballer

17-07-2005, 09:26

I take an estimated 4 hours or more to run from Lut Golein to Duriel. I literally will spend (a well spent) night doing act II (especially in the Arcane Sanctuary). A map hacker takes (yes I've seen them when I've just gotten to Cain do Duriel) an estimates 1 hour or ever FAR less. Do you see an advantage? I sure don't. None at all. None. Nope. None at all.

Map hack ruins 99% of public games I join. It ruins multiplayer experiences to the point no one even TRIES to joing a real game unless they hook up in these forums. OK-- I can either spend 2 hours trying to find like minded players on these forums, creating a thread and waiting for mature people on the same realm to respond, an me respond back, and we wind up offline at the wrong time, or as I SHOULD, create a game and have normal people join. Instead, worthless pieces of piss join. Sorry for being pissed off. Map hack has ruined D2 more than bots, and I stand by that with money in hand. Bots can be ignored by not trading. Maphack ruins the point of an online game. D2 is a multiplayer game. NOT FOR A LONG LONG TIME.

RequiemDK

17-07-2005, 10:48

I beg to differ. I've never taken 4 hours from Lut Gholein to Duriel before. 2 at most.

And, how difficult is it to tell when a rune drops? That sound is unmistakeable, and since my alt-key is held down half the time, I've never ever missed a rune drop. As for socketables, it really doesn't bother me much. I could run a few hell cows by myself using my blizz sorc and find just about any socketable I want, or something to trade for that socketable that I want.

As for MF runs, I'd rather blame the abyssmally low chances of useful stuff dropping for my lack of wealth, which I don't complain about (except for my melee characters) since my other characters seem to get along fine without TEH GODLY ITAMZ. Heck, my necro is still using some rare +2 necro with prismatic resists head (socketed with pdiamond) in hell. Even if the maphacker is doing twice or thrice as many runs as you, 3 times of abyssmally low chances is still abyssmally low chances. It's far more likely for you to get lucky and get a Death's Fathom while he gets more Isenhart's Cases.

I don't PVP and won't comment on how hacks ruin it. I believe that dupes and bots have had a much larger impact there though, seeing how item-dependent it is. Then again, I'm more inclined to believe that Blizzard itself has completely raped it over with the ridiculous runewords that shouldn't even exist.

I believe these are what MH affects - LLD games as mentioned by Dawnmaster, PK-ing (not so much, since I'm more irked by the fact that any class can tele now, and that probably affects this more) and races to the top of the ladder (like I care...). The rest? No.

The failure to find decent people to play online with shouldn't be attributed to maphack. If you don't think so, I invite you to play Warcraft 3 on BNet. Even if they don't see your equipment and make rude comments on it, they can still find other ways to ruin your day. Besides, what's so private about your equipment that makes you so offended about other people seeing it anyway? I quite enjoy having maphackers boggle over how my so-called pathetic Witchwild String can still hold up in Hell Act 5.

I'll tell you what riles me up more than maphackers. That would be dupes, bots, unfathomably ill-mannered players, as well as purists who simply cannot accept that not everyone shares their views and are out on some holy crusade to purge the world of those who don't play by their rules. Especially that last one. Live and let live, and your time on bnet will be much more bearable. I have no problems with those who simply state that they do not wish to play with MH-ers and leave the game. I don't mind playing with MH-ers as long as they're playing nice. I have major problems with those who learn that someone in the public game is MH-ing and then starts going off on a rant and insulting the MH-er. Real mature man, real mature.

Dawnmaster

17-07-2005, 11:03

I have major problems with those who learn that someone in the public game is MH-ing and then starts going off on a rant and insulting the MH-er. Real mature man, real mature.

Hm, I don't want to generalize, but, what is the average age of people who use MH? I can't imagine that a mature person would want to cheat in a virtual game?
Don't get me wrong, ranting and insulting MH users I don't condone either, but MH users usually start ranting themselves if you don't follow them or trade an item you're carrying and they want.

I agree, if they're nice, there isn't a big problem (if you consider friendly play only, not the advantages), but I think cheating makes a person arrogant, cocky, aggressive, lazy etc

Arbedark

17-07-2005, 11:13

I've never ever missed a rune drop

And how do you know that? If you've missed it you wouldnt KNOW that would you? Unless you use mh :uhhuh:

I could run a few hell cows by myself using my blizz sorc and find just about any socketable I want

The point is that mh users can scan all the grey items quickly, to see if they are socketed, etheral, how many sockets they have, therefore saving time, and giving an advantage over players who can only see that the item is grey.

It's far more likely for you to get lucky and get a Death's Fathom while he gets more Isenhart's Cases.

What parallel universe do you live in, where (for example) a 0.01% Chance is greater than 3 x 0.01% chances :scratch:
More runs = greater chance of items dropping. If you understand the most basic statistics then this would make sense.

I don't PVP and won't comment

Well I do PvP and i can comment that mh, with scroll etc DOES ruin the game. And gives an advantage which makes an average mh player as good as a good non-mh player.

I believe these are what MH affects - LLD games as mentioned by Dawnmaster, PK-ing (not so much, since I'm more irked by the fact that any class can tele now, and that probably affects this more) and races to the top of the ladder (like I care...). The rest? No.

So MH doesnt affect mf runs, ability to see runes / socketed items etc, pvping, speed in general leveling, its ability to help bots...
I think you're wrong...

I don't mind playing with MH-ers as long as they're playing nice.

Going by that reasoning you shouldn't mind playing with a baal bot, since they are "playing nice". They dont act childish, or spam or try and get you killed. In fact they act more mature than 99.9% of B.Net.

Nice arguing with you...:thumbsup:

Arb

Superhal

17-07-2005, 11:15

heh maphack users all sound alike. :)

first of all, the basic premise: using mh makes you better in some way than other players. what makes you think that? i don't use maphack, and i was able to trigger a realm down while doing countess runs, so it was basically under 30-45 seconds per run.

imho, mh allows players like you to keep up with players like me, which is exactly how i like it.

Dawnmaster

17-07-2005, 11:22

Devastatius

17-07-2005, 11:24

Players using MH can have a disadvantage. When I wook a short vacation to single player, two of my friends decided to play singleplayer too (their not members of the forums). At first they both used MH, but I was possible to talk one out of it. The time I reached Hell with my Necromancer, I was lvl 70+ (without doing exp runs). When he reached Hell, he was only lvl 58 or something, because he only killed anything on his way, and since he went the right way, he didn't came across (sp) very much monsters.

But since MH'ers get boosted and rushed like the majority of the community (not excluding myself, I only like to play through end NM and Hell mode myself), this 'disadvantage' isn't noticable at all I think.

-Bugatron

Arbedark

17-07-2005, 11:29

first of all, the basic premise: using mh makes you better in some way than other players. what makes you think that? i don't use maphack, and i was able to trigger a realm down while doing countess runs, so it was basically under 30-45 seconds per run.

Oh noezzzz! It is so hard to trigger realm down :uhhuh:

I trigger realm down all the time, from doing cow runs or baal runs. It's got nothing to do with being super fast anymore, its just because b.net is so cacky and unstable. It's not really an achievement.

imho, mh allows players like you to keep up with players like me, which is exactly how i like it.

Players like who?

I'm assuming you mean the total newbies.

Arb

Orphan

17-07-2005, 11:34

And, how difficult is it to tell when a rune drops? That sound is unmistakeable, and since my alt-key is held down half the time, I've never ever missed a rune drop. As for socketables, it really doesn't bother me much. I could run a few hell cows by myself using my blizz sorc and find just about any socketable I want, or something to trade for that socketable that I want.

What happens when alot of items are dropping at the same time (like on cows). How do you spot the rune among a potential 20 white item pile (if it comes up on the screen at all while pressing ALT). Sound won't save you.

It's far more likely for you to get lucky and get a Death's Fathom while he gets more Isenhart's Cases.

That doesn't make any sense. By your logic, if you enter a single standard quickpick into the lotto, and I enter two or three quickpicks in, you have a greater chance of winning then I do, which is absurd.

I don't PVP and won't comment on how hacks ruin it. I believe that dupes and bots have had a much larger impact there though, seeing how item-dependent it is. Then again, I'm more inclined to believe that Blizzard itself has completely raped it over with the ridiculous runewords that shouldn't even exist.

True, dupes and bots probably do have a much larger impact on the PvP scene, but that doesn't mean we should disregard the MH users simply because there's other factors. I'll wager alot more people use MH than those who know how to dupe, or those who bot. MH is still a big problem. The people at this forum tackle each problem as it comes. When someone admits to using MH, they'll be targetted. Just like if someone uses Bots. Ignoring the "small problems" only leaves those problems there for later on.

I'll tell you what riles me up more than maphackers. That would be dupes, bots, unfathomably ill-mannered players, as well as purists who simply cannot accept that not everyone shares their views and are out on some holy crusade to purge the world of those who don't play by their rules. Especially that last one. Live and let live, and your time on bnet will be much more bearable. I have no problems with those who simply state that they do not wish to play with MH-ers and leave the game. I don't mind playing with MH-ers as long as they're playing nice. I have major problems with those who learn that someone in the public game is MH-ing and then starts going off on a rant and insulting the MH-er. Real mature man, real mature.

I guess I'm one of the purists. What I hate are people who somehow think the rules don't apply to them, yet will stand behind them once they themselves are threatened. It reminds me of alot of people back when I played Starcraft. They used to complain about people who use maphack, as if somehow they were violated, and yet they were using it themselves in the same game. The attitude isn't very different on D2. A pickit user will whinge and complain when another pickit user happens to get an item faster than his hack. To be honest, it's a very very selfish thing to do, and is really childish, especially when acting in a community (like battle.net).

I don't use MH. I may be a "purist" by your standards, but I do so out of respect for the other players involved (like you).

Joch

17-07-2005, 11:49

got a bit tired of reading so I'm not sure if this is mensioned:

I think there are 2 kinds of ppl who use maphack:
one who uses it for mf runs, rushes and staying alive in hc

the other, who uses that and
- has those 'chicken' options wich makes them autoleave on low life
- use that 'scroll' wich makes u able to cast 2 screens away
as far as I heard.
this second are annoying as for they can actually use that against you.

I consider the other hacks to be worse, I don't think they've been added to mh.
- pickit wich makes them able to grab all the stuff away before you even see what dropped
- aimhack (should I say even more? omg you have to be total loser if u use that)
- bots (I like to hunt them... to bad most of them have the chicken function when I hostile them)

anything I left out?

Orphan

17-07-2005, 11:59

anything I left out?

I imagine there's probably a trade hack going around (or remnants of one).

Superhal

17-07-2005, 12:03

heh, that's called an "ad homenim" attack. look it up, it'll make both of you smarter.

Arbedark

17-07-2005, 12:09

heh, that's called an "ad homenim" attack. look it up, it'll make both of you smarter.

From the person who cant even spell "ad hominem" :rolleyes:

Well anyhoo, i fail to see how any of your posts bring anything constructive to this thread.

If you dont have aything interesting / helpful to say then don't say it.

Arb

Joch

17-07-2005, 12:16

From the person who cant even spell "ad hominem" :rolleyes:

Well anyhoo, i fail to see how any of your posts bring anything constructive to this thread.

If you dont have aything interesting / helpful to say then don't say it.

Arb

Like I'm to understand now wtf 'ad homenim' is?

point being, regarding the thread,
I consider it to be a real problem if you use against other, especially legit, players. Was also pointing out that there are worse hacks then mh.

does anyone btw understand why ppl who use aimhack on u claim they "owned" u or say "cry" ?

HardyTarget

17-07-2005, 12:18

Funny that we have a bot discussion AND a mh discussion threads on the first page, despite this being all legal forum and stuff :D

When I need a rush, MH users can provide one pretty fast as they don't have to guess the path.
The only thing I find annoying is that they can see other people's inventories.

Joch, I believe maphacks have all kinds of features build-in, not just the map itself, including pickit, which makes them more than just a "maphack".

The worst ones imo are the botters as they make the itemvalue go down.
Even the rarest uniques are soon worth nothing.

Orphan

17-07-2005, 12:21

Like I'm to understand now wtf 'ad homenim' is?

point being, regarding the thread,
I consider it to be a real problem if you use against other, especially legit, players. Was also pointing out that there are worse hacks then mh.

Ad Hominem is bascially a personal attack, rather than a constructive one. I think SuperHal was being sarcastic anyway.

Secondly, I believe he was replying to Dawnmaster and Arbedark, not you :) (if you took it that way). So no need to worry.

Arbedark

17-07-2005, 12:22

does anyone btw understand why ppl who use aimhack on u claim they "owned" u or say "cry" ?

"owned" refers to their obviously superior ability and they are just commenting upon how they beat you without having to use any of their vast skill [/sarcasm]

"cry" refers to when you complain that they use a hack they think you are crying because you have lost.

Yes they are probably either drunk or on drugs at this point to assume that the average person cries when they lose a duel in a virtual game :lol:

Arb

DaCerZ

17-07-2005, 12:24

Heres a theoretical (theorhetical? whatever) situation for you all to consider:

You are a legit player (very nice :thumbsup: etc )

Your friend is a not-so legit player, but when he/she plays with you, they disable their mh, pickit, whatever and is a really nice person.

You casually mention in conversation how aggrivated you are that you cannot find that godly item (whatever you fancy, really) and are going nuts trying to find it.

A couple of days later, your friend comes to you and drops at your feet, a lovely legitly found [whateveritemitis] and doesn't ask you for a damned thing in return.

You know they use pickit, mh or both and possibly beat someone else, using the same hacks to this item -for you-.

What would you do? Would you stand by your morals and be all "No i don't want your dirty items that you may or may not have spent time trying to find for me." Or would you just take the item?

And if anyone says anything about putting it into a 'real life' situation, don't bother - the basic logic is the same, sure, but the general premise of it.

-does a dramatic drum roll and awaits a response-

-Dace-

Herald of Doom

17-07-2005, 12:28

Dawnmaster

17-07-2005, 12:32

TO: DaCerZ

It's an interesting point, depending on your ethics, you might take the item or not.

But, I think we're missing a few facts here:

1) If you're really that much against hacks and bots that you'd refuse a legit item, then why would you be friends with that person anyway?

2) You can refuse items found by hacks/bots, but what about trading for duped items, high runes and sojs namely? If you trade for any high rune, that'd be the same as accepting a legit item found by a botting friend?

3) And lastly, if you don't take point 1 and 2 into mind, you consider the next problem: you can either accept or refuse the item. But you can refuse it for various reasons, you want to find it yourself is a good one. You can accept it, since it is one of your goals, and you fear you might not archieving much goals by the time Blizzard shuts down the servers.

It's a tricky tricky question as you can see, and the answer isn't a simple yes or no, depending on the situation. I guess you'll have to encounter it once and be fair about what you did then, and why you did it. :thumbsup:

Superhal

17-07-2005, 12:33

dacerz: i think you're looking at it in the wrong way. basically, you are taking the view of d2 as a series of items to be gained, players/monsters to beat, etc. in that sense, yes, hacks are a clear advantage and will make this process easier. however, i (perhaps others) take the view that d2 is a test of one's skill and perseverance. it is quite possible to get any item in the game by doing X for Y amount of time. in that sense, i indeed would refuse that item (as i have many times before) because i know that eventually i will get it. this is basically why i haven't traded since .09. in other words, d2 is about
tackling problems, testing your own limits, and perhaps learning something in the process. yes, i also take SAT and GRE tests for fun.

orphan: alas, my feeble attempt at making someone smarter has failed miserably. :(

arbedark: that's called the ad ad homenim attack. :) why don't you go to mousepad, i think they have an argument hack you can dl.

Arbedark

17-07-2005, 12:40

arbedark: that's called the ad ad homenim attack. :) why don't you go to mousepad, i think they have an argument hack you can dl.

Oh that stings! :lol:

Baseless accusations that i use hacks, while clearly pointing out the negative effect they have upon the game merely highlights the fact that you have either failed to read, or failed to understand my previous posts.

Ergo, I will now bow down to your superiour skill and attitude toward the game, since all i see is sensless boasting on your part. [/sarcasm]

As i said. If you dont have anything helpful to bring to the argument but merely wish to boast about how great you are then it would be appreciated if you refrain from posting.

Anyway, HoD has, in my humble opinion, neatly summed everything up.

Arb

Joch

17-07-2005, 12:43

Ad hominem is a logical fallacy. It originally meant using an argument directed at the person himself rather than the subject at hand.

Maphack is wrong, it gives an unfair advantage in every part of the game. Mfing => advantage. Rushing => advantage. Duels => advantage. PK => advantage. It doesn't matter that botters or dupers are worse, MH is still bad :)

HoD

well, I play diablo 2 for so long now that I could have actually drawn every little possible map of diablo2.
I actually guess the right way bout 9/10 times
so if I'dd use mh in rush or mf it wouldn't make that big of difference.
I'm just more against using hacks against other then using it against a game ya see :D

Superhal

17-07-2005, 12:45

Oh that stings! :lol:

Baseless accusations that i use hacks, while clearly pointing out the negative effect they have upon the game merely highlights the fact that you have either failed to read, or failed to understand my previous posts.

Ergo, I will now bow down to your superiour skill and attitude toward the game, since all i see is sensless boasting on your part. [/sarcasm]

As i said. If you dont have anything helpful to bring to the argument but merely wish to boast about how great you are then it would be appreciated if you refrain from posting.

Anyway, HoD has, in my humble opinion, neatly summed everything up.

Arb

actually i was ignoring you and talking to somebody else. which side are you on?

DaCerZ

17-07-2005, 12:48

Replying to: Dawnmaster

I've actually recently came to the situation. I play with a group of friends from outside these forums and I think I am the only person who doesn't use mh (why does the entire group need mh? but thats not the point). I made a new zealot and started playing with them the other night. Went up lvls pretty quick, but thats not the point. After me arguing the arguments that people give here, I got given that very same propsition.

While I would not personally use mh, I would not turn down charity from a friend, although I don't use mh - i still am able to find items in return. So whether or not he used mh to get it or not, I do not believe that I am -better- than this person because I like to find my way myself (although i do get aggrivated if it takes ages, then get a crap drop...er...tangent...) or whatever, so me not taking the item for any reason that was a cover for simply denying my taking his charity, would make me, in my opinion, seem to be acting holier-than-thou which I detest with a passion.

Another of my friends in that group was overjoyed today when I asked him if he wanted an aldurs helm for his druid I had found... so that rabble about them getting to do more mf runs than a non-mh person... it just boils down to luck. As i've seen a hundred times with people saying they have absurd amounts of mf and haven't found anything, etc. I could do 5 meph runs, and get elite uniques each time, and a mh user could do 50 in the time it takes me to do 5, but he only gets 1 elite unique and a bunch of other uniques, set, etc. Sure he got more, but mine have potentially more wealth. It's just luck. I've ran meph, andy, pindle, pits, diablo and baal for -hours- and got notta worth keeping/mentioning...

But I tangented, cry pardon.

Simply my reply would be: I would take it, on the premise that I would repay the person at one point for them going out their way for me (as thats what friends do...) even if they did use mh to get me what i was looking for. It really is less 'evil' if you will, than me trading to get the item, esp. if its a hr, or something i am in search for.

I personally see no problem people using mh, pickit, whatever - if they are using it to help out their friends, or even newer players. I still personally would not use mh, because I enjoy the frustration more often than not. Makes me victory all the sweeter when it pays off.

I think I could've said this in less words, but I felt like typing :D

To Superhal: If I wanted to test myself, or do something for -improving- my skills. I wouldn't be playing a PC game. I think people forget at the core of everything people put 'on top' of D2, like you have, that it is still a game and the purpose of the game is to have fun and to -beat- the game. I've beat the game. I've beat it with being rushed and once without (admitedly before any later patches and it was classic, but i still beat it. I know everything the game has to offer and I am playing to see if I can attain some wealth and get some cool looking characters, for the sake of messing about for a couple of hours a day. No offense meant of course, to each their own an' all, but still. It's just a game... an old game at that... and people who are on both sides of the fence here, still have fun. Considerably less when they clash and just refuse to gtf on with it. I'm not gonna get into life theories here. So lets leave it at that :D

-Dace-

Arbedark

17-07-2005, 12:48

actually i was ignoring you and talking to somebody else. which side are you on?

You were ignoring me and talking to someone else. Yet you specifically mentioned me by name :scratch:

Please make up your mind Superhal

And if you fail to pick out of my posts that i am against mh then here it is as plain as can be:

I AM AGAINST MAPHACK

Arb

Devastatius

17-07-2005, 12:52

You were ignoring me and talking to someone else. Yet you specifically mentioned me by name :scratch:

Please make up your mind Superhal

And if you fail to pick out of my posts that i am against mh then here it is as plain as can be:

I AM AGAINST MAPHACK

Arb
Well that's clear :p.

-Bugatron

Dawnmaster

17-07-2005, 12:54

actually i was ignoring you and talking to somebody else. which side are you on?

Ignoring? Correct me if I'm wrong here, but what was this:

arbedark: that's called the ad ad homenim attack. :) why don't you go to mousepad, i think they have an argument hack you can dl.

:scratch:

Superhal

17-07-2005, 13:09

abr: that's nice.

dace: again, it's item-centric. does friendship have to be expressed in the giving and taking of gifts? and, more importantly, does mh enhance the friendship? imho, mh is a hack that has nothing to do with friendship, items, gift-giving, or anything else other than hacking.

in the years i've been discussing hacks, one thing is always true: people who use hacks feel guilty about it and try to justify it through any means. but the bottom line is that there is no justification. behind all forms of cheating, online or off, is a fear of losing. imho, i am neutral about any hack, but i feel that its the fear that needs to be dealt with.

here's an example: a few years ago, we had a similar discussion on the barb board. somebody put up a thread trying to justify using mh because of the hacked items around, and wanted to "protect" themselves. my argument was that first, if you knew, what are you going to do, just quit? second, using mh in this manner will only increase the number of duels you don't have. imho, a "top" dueler (or pool player or gambler or anything) takes on all comers, and their won/loss record usually has a whole lot of losses. in other words, they are using mh to ensure they are going to win, which goes back again to the fear of losing. if dueling truly was a skill, couldn't they duel anyone?

Sharaz

17-07-2005, 13:17

Superhal

17-07-2005, 13:19

Ignoring? Correct me if I'm wrong here, but what was this:
:scratch:

up until my first post in this thread, i didn't read the intervening posts. arb only caught my attention by quoting what i said and responding to that with an ad homenim attack. until that moment, i had no idea who he was, is or wanted to be. you'll notice i wrote "was." was is the past tense of 'be.' that means i WAS ignoring him until after he responded to me. this is usually how i respond to long threads where the original poster is asking for an opinion rather than information, and then i would have to read the other posts to see if i could add anything or the question was answered.

if you have any more questions, i'll try to explain further.

DaCerZ

17-07-2005, 13:23

Superhal: I gague my friendship to these people on the fact that I can accept that they want to cheat at the game and they accept the fact that I will not use hacks but I won't try force my opinion on them, nor them on me. So I simply put it down to pretending to be ignorant of their vices as it were. Same way I do not condone in anyway shape or form, the use of illegal substances but if my friends do it, it's their lives and their choices. I'm still friends with them eitherway. And the item giving/taking is just a nice bonus :D

:thumbsup:

-Dace-

festers50

17-07-2005, 14:43

And if you fail to pick out of my posts that i am against mh then here it is as plain as can be:

I AM AGAINST MAPHACK

Arb

Me too, but I enjoy reading mh threads. :drink:

Fluffballer

17-07-2005, 14:57

What I hate are people who somehow think the rules don't apply to them...

Well I think that pretty much sums up everything. There is no valid argument for maphack.

RequiemDK

17-07-2005, 14:59

For some reason, I feel compelled to reply to this even though I know better.

And how do you know that? If you've missed it you wouldnt KNOW that would you? Unless you use mh :uhhuh:

I have more faith in my senses than you have apparently.

The point is that mh users can scan all the grey items quickly, to see if they are socketed, etheral, how many sockets they have, therefore saving time, and giving an advantage over players who can only see that the item is grey.

So? Do you really need to have all the socketed items in the world? Or are you just lazy to go make a few private cow runs and get it yourself? I don't see how the advantage here could cause any sane person to rise up in arms. I'd be more worried about pickits. I've been denied more than a few elite uniques by pickit-users than MHers.

What parallel universe do you live in, where (for example) a 0.01% Chance is greater than 3 x 0.01% chances :scratch:
More runs = greater chance of items dropping. If you understand the most basic statistics then this would make sense.

I'll just take it that my statement wasn't worded well enough. I'm saying that 0.00000000000000000003% chance is not much better than 0.00000000000000000001%. And since MF only affects the quality of the drops, and not what drops, the MHer isn't going to find 10 windforces by the time you find one. He's more likely to find 1000000 more Isenhart's Cases instead. Are you one of those who'd rather have 1000% MF and run bosses all day long than actually have a balanced character and run all the level 85 areas? If you're the latter, MH gives pittance of an advantage since those areas are all teeming with monsters in hell.

Well I do PvP and i can comment that mh, with scroll etc DOES ruin the game. And gives an advantage which makes an average mh player as good as a good non-mh player.

I gathered as much from your tone. Unfortunately, though, I can say the same for things like Enigma, and since the only difference between Enigma and MH is that Enigma is a legit game item, while MH isn't, I don't see much grounds for an arguement about how MH has destroyed PVP-ing more than Enigma and the likes.

So MH doesnt affect mf runs, ability to see runes / socketed items etc, pvping, speed in general leveling, its ability to help bots...
I think you're wrong...

It sure as hell doesn't affect me as much as the other illegit programs do. And to see so many people crying so much about MH makes me sick just thinking about how short-sighted the general purist is. Sorry, I'd much rather play with a nice, polite MH-er than a holy purist crusader, and btw, maybe I do live in a parallel universe, but a fair percentage of the MH-ers that I've encountered on bnet are actually of this sort.

Going by that reasoning you shouldn't mind playing with a baal bot, since they are "playing nice". They dont act childish, or spam or try and get you killed. In fact they act more mature than 99.9% of B.Net.

And I don't. But I don't play with baal bots all the time, because I don't go running baal 100000 times just to level up. I'd much sooner quit a game when an anti-MH crusader joins and starts the tiresome tirade, than quit a baal bot game.

Let's put it this way. I liken the MH-ers to people who drive auto-trannie cars, and non-MHers to those who drive manual. Why? Because I think auto-trannie drivers are lazy as hell, and their level of skill is generally lower. But there're far worse things on the road than an auto driver, like road hogs, drunken drivers, etc. And nobody likes someone who drives a manual car and thinks he's so much better than the rest.

RequiemDK

17-07-2005, 15:04

Well I think that pretty much sums up everything. There is no valid argument for maphack.

I don't think any of us here actually thinks that maphack is legit by any definition. Unfortunately, the point of this thread seems to be lost on the general populace whose first reaction to seeing the dreaded M word is to ready, aim, blast on all cylinders with their flamethrowers. I seldom reply to anything on these boards because it's always the same old stuff, but I thought that this thread had a good point in that everyone's just busy griping about MH and not recognizing that there're much worse programs out there that should be stopped before MH. Too bad it looks as if this thread is just going to become your standard "CONDEMN MH" thread. Oh well.

Herald of Doom

17-07-2005, 15:16

I don't think any of us here actually thinks that maphack is legit by any definition. Unfortunately, the point of this thread seems to be lost on the general populace whose first reaction to seeing the dreaded M word is to ready, aim, blast on all cylinders with their flamethrowers. I seldom reply to anything on these boards because it's always the same old stuff, but I thought that this thread had a good point in that everyone's just busy griping about MH and not recognizing that there're much worse programs out there that should be stopped before MH. Too bad it looks as if this thread is just going to become your standard "CONDEMN MH" thread. Oh well.
But, you see, there is nothing to gripe about maphack. We all *know* it's illegal. We all *know* it gives people who use it an unfair advantage. You can say "but pickit is worse !", and i'll agree with that, but that has nothing to do with the maphack issue. They're both hacks, with VERY different effects, and they all ruin other players their playing experience. I don't people nagging "omg, trade your arreats plzzzzkkkk, offer 290s" when I'm teleporting down to the throne without maphack. I don't want people knowing in pvp where I am all the time.

HoD

RequiemDK

17-07-2005, 15:22

But, you see, there is nothing to gripe about maphack. We all *know* it's illegal. We all *know* it gives people who use it an unfair advantage. You can say "but pickit is worse !", and i'll agree with that, but that has nothing to do with the maphack issue. They're both hacks, with VERY different effects, and they all ruin other players their playing experience. I don't people nagging "omg, trade your arreats plzzzzkkkk, offer 290s" when I'm teleporting down to the throne without maphack. I don't want people knowing in pvp where I am all the time.

HoD

But this is not the place to rant about maphack. That's so 4 years ago. It's a thread that's asking if people thought that maphack was just a scapegoat for all the hacks out there or not, and apparently people aren't getting the idea.

Dawnmaster

17-07-2005, 15:33

For some reason, I feel compelled to reply to this even though I know better.

Don't want to sound rude, but if you claim to know better, then why reply?

So? Do you really need to have all the socketed items in the world? Or are you just lazy to go make a few private cow runs and get it yourself? I don't see how the advantage here could cause any sane person to rise up in arms. I'd be more worried about pickits. I've been denied more than a few elite uniques by pickit-users than MHers.

Imo, private cowruns are useless, you have to have a decent char to do them alone and you get very few drops. And about those elite uniques. Cowgames are mostly run for socket items, if you want uniques, do lvl85areas. And what does pickit have to do with anything? This thread is about MH? Aren't you the one that complained that this thread went in another direction then you'd wanted it to?

I'll just take it that my statement wasn't worded well enough. I'm saying that 0.00000000000000000003% chance is not much better than 0.00000000000000000001%. And since MF only affects the quality of the drops, and not what drops, the MHer isn't going to find 10 windforces by the time you find one. He's more likely to find 1000000 more Isenhart's Cases instead. Are you one of those who'd rather have 1000% MF and run bosses all day long than actually have a balanced character and run all the level 85 areas? If you're the latter, MH gives pittance of an advantage since those areas are all teeming with monsters in hell.

He's more likely to find a lot more crap yes, but he is also more likely to find good items? Statistics stay the same, regardless of what you think.

I gathered as much from your tone. Unfortunately, though, I can say the same for things like Enigma, and since the only difference between Enigma and MH is that Enigma is a legit game item, while MH isn't, I don't see much grounds for an arguement about how MH has destroyed PVP-ing more than Enigma and the likes.

I do think it makes a huge difference if you can see that your opponent lacks the final breakpoint for his attack. Or if he has no life/mana/res/fhr in his items, searching for a weak point to tear him down without breaking a sweat?

It sure as hell doesn't affect me as much as the other illegit programs do. And to see so many people crying so much about MH makes me sick just thinking about how short-sighted the general purist is. Sorry, I'd much rather play with a nice, polite MH-er than a holy purist crusader, and btw, maybe I do live in a parallel universe, but a fair percentage of the MH-ers that I've encountered on bnet are actually of this sort.

It might not affect you, but MH is used a lot more then pickit and bot. And about your "nice MH er" and "holy purist crusader", not to sound rude, but people who cheat are often lazy. You'll commonly find them to be rude and childish as well. Atleast the crusaders have better manners.

And I don't. But I don't play with baal bots all the time, because I don't go running baal 100000 times just to level up. I'd much sooner quit a game when an anti-MH crusader joins and starts the tiresome tirade, than quit a baal bot game.

Although a lot of people keep their mouth shut when a bot teles to baal every game, it doens't mean they'll approve it when a friend uses it, or themselves? Extra note here: I've never seen a tirade going on on bnet? People who don't like MH are very rare. The "legit" players are only about 5% or less from entire bnet. I've never seen them complain on the net, only here on the forums.

Let's put it this way. I liken the MH-ers to people who drive auto-trannie cars, and non-MHers to those who drive manual. Why? Because I think auto-trannie drivers are lazy as hell, and their level of skill is generally lower. But there're far worse things on the road than an auto driver, like road hogs, drunken drivers, etc. And nobody likes someone who drives a manual car and thinks he's so much better than the rest.

Well, people who drive an automatic, let's just say, automatic shifting was invented to simplify life for the handicapped people. When regular peeps start using it, agreed, they're pretty lazy. But, because they are so lazy, they might cause more accidents than a regular driver. Because they had an easier training. They don't know how to respond correctly if an accident is immenent. So, eventhough there are worse things out there, we can't ignore the little problems.

Arbedark

17-07-2005, 15:49

I have more faith in my senses than you have apparently.
Indeed I do. Since i think from a cow game or such, with around 40-80 white items on the screen missing the small letters "Lo Rune" would be VERY easy indeed.

So? Do you really need to have all the socketed items in the world? Or are you just lazy to go make a few private cow runs and get it yourself? I don't see how the advantage here could cause any sane person to rise up in arms. I'd be more worried about pickits. I've been denied more than a few elite uniques by pickit-users than MHers.
No i dont need them all. But when a MH user can spot a 6os 15% ed superior Etheral BA, while i have to search through every BA that i find, i THINK that makes a difference.
Especially since it'll take more than a "few private cow runs" to get it.

I'm saying that 0.00000000000000000003% chance is not much better than 0.00000000000000000001%.
its a 200% Better chance...
Which imo is a MUCH better chance.
And it doesnt matter if they find even 40 billion more isenharts cases. I dont think they are going to go "OH! a set breast plate! I WONDER what that could be!?" every single time. No matter how retarded they are.
So your point about finding more bad items...BS...Finding more items in general = a GOOD thing...

I gathered as much from your tone. Unfortunately, though, I can say the same for things like Enigma, and since the only difference between Enigma and MH is that Enigma is a legit game item, while MH isn't, I don't see much grounds for an arguement about how MH has destroyed PVP-ing more than Enigma and the likes
OH NO! Enigma has ruined the game...
It takes up an armour slot. For the bonus of some STR and the ability to Tele. So you cant compare a hack to an item which you must sacrifice an armour slot to use :cheesy:
I'd rather use that armour slot for 65% all res, or 300% ED than tele on a lot of chars.
And a good PvPer without Enigma can beat an average PvPer with enigma.
Once again, your points make no sense.

It sure as hell doesn't affect me as much as the other illegit programs do. And to see so many people crying so much about MH makes me sick just thinking about how short-sighted the general purist is. Sorry, I'd much rather play with a nice, polite MH-er than a holy purist crusader, and btw, maybe I do live in a parallel universe, but a fair percentage of the MH-ers that I've encountered on bnet are actually of this sort.
You'd be surprised. How would the bots find their way to the routes...using MH (i assume, or a form of mh at least).
If you like MHers so much, then leave this LEGIT forum, go found your own MH club and swap stories of how you are so leet because you use MH :thumbsup:

Let's put it this way. I liken the MH-ers to people who drive auto-trannie cars, and non-MHers to those who drive manual. Why? Because I think auto-trannie drivers are lazy as hell, and their level of skill is generally lower. But there're far worse things on the road than an auto driver, like road hogs, drunken drivers, etc. And nobody likes someone who drives a manual car and thinks he's so much better than the rest.
Bad analogy, Since automatic car's aren't "illegal", MH is. Also Automatic cars don't allow you to see other cars on the road, which are round the bend.
Automatic drivers are no less safe than manual drivers. They both have to pass a test, they both drive on the same roads. Just one person has to use more concentration on switching gears than the other.

So for the final time. Your point makes no sense.

Nice arguing with you.

Arb

RequiemDK

17-07-2005, 15:58

Indeed I do. Since i think from a cow game or such, with around 40-80 white items on the screen missing the small letters "Lo Rune" would be VERY easy indeed.

No i dont need them all. But when a MH user can spot a 6os 15% ed superior Etheral BA, while i have to search through every BA that i find, i THINK that makes a difference.
Especially since it'll take more than a "few private cow runs" to get it.

its a 200% Better chance...
Which imo is a MUCH better chance.
And it doesnt matter if they find even 40 billion more isenharts cases. I dont think they are going to go "OH! a set breast plate! I WONDER what that could be!?" every single time. No matter how retarded they are.
So your point about finding more bad items...BS...Finding more items in general = a GOOD thing...

OH NO! Enigma has ruined the game...
It takes up an armour slot. For the bonus of some STR and the ability to Tele. So you cant compare a hack to an item which you must sacrifice an armour slot to use :cheesy:
I'd rather use that armour slot for 65% all res, or 300% ED than tele on a lot of chars.
And a good PvPer without Enigma can beat an average PvPer with enigma.
Once again, your points make no sense.

You'd be surprised. How would the bots find their way to the routes...using MH (i assume, or a form of mh at least).
If you like MHers so much, then leave this LEGIT forum, go found your own MH club and swap stories of how you are so leet because you use MH :thumbsup:

Bad analogy, Since automatic car's aren't "illegal", MH is. Also Automatic cars don't allow you to see other cars on the road, which are round the bend.
Automatic drivers are no less safe than manual drivers. They both have to pass a test, they both drive on the same roads. Just one person has to use more concentration on switching gears than the other.

So for the final time. Your point makes no sense.

Nice arguing with you.

Arb

I see your points, but I'm afraid you do not see mine. You fail to see the reasoning behind the analogy, you fail to see the bigger picture on MF runs, and finally, telling me to leave this forum is useless since in the first place, I left it about 3 years ago after quitting D2X, and have found this place to be not much better than the trash that is the BNet forums currently. Nice use of sarcasm at the end, but I'm afraid I won't reciprocate and mince my words. You have the attitude of a slightly better than average BNet scum, and whether you're legit or not does not matter because of this. Good day.

Arbedark

17-07-2005, 16:06

I see your points, but I'm afraid you do not see mine. You fail to see the reasoning behind the analogy, you fail to see the bigger picture on MF runs, and finally, telling me to leave this forum is useless since in the first place, I left it about 3 years ago after quitting D2X, and have found this place to be not much better than the trash that is the BNet forums currently. Nice use of sarcasm at the end, but I'm afraid I won't reciprocate and mince my words. You have the attitude of a slightly better than average BNet scum, and whether you're legit or not does not matter because of this. Good day.

Sarcasm? :scratch:

I said nice arguing with you, because as far as I can see we are both mature people, and giving well thought out response to an argument is quite enjoyable...

I do see the reasoning behind the analogy, hence my arguments against it.
I do see the bigger picture about MFing, but your points dont make any sense. MH leads to (approx) 200% more drops. That can ONLY be bad for Non-MH users.

And btw, if you feel my attitude is slightly better than average B.Net scum, then i will have to say that i wish i played on your realms.

I structure arguments carefully and respond to you with civil tones.

Not:

OMFG NOOBZOR!! HAHA!! I HAXED JOOSZ ACC EARLIEUFDJX!!!! LOLZZZ!!!!!!LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!one!!!ELEVELN TYone!!

So if you cant take a mature conversation and argument about a touchy subject, then dont post here.

Arb

RequiemDK

17-07-2005, 16:17

Don't want to sound rude, but if you claim to know better, then why reply?

Got me there. Not too sure why I bothered...

Imo, private cowruns are useless, you have to have a decent char to do them alone and you get very few drops. And about those elite uniques. Cowgames are mostly run for socket items, if you want uniques, do lvl85areas. And what does pickit have to do with anything? This thread is about MH? Aren't you the one that complained that this thread went in another direction then you'd wanted it to?

Err that's not my point. His point was that MHers can spot desirable socketable items much faster. I said that it doesn't bother me since I can easily run cows a few times to get whatever socketables I want, or to get something to trade for the socketable that I'm looking for.

Pickit has everything to do with this thread since it's one of the hacks that people seem to not ever rag on, instead choosing to rag on maphack as if it's the be-all-and-end-all of hacks. I think pickit is actually more prolific than maphack on the realms.

He's more likely to find a lot more crap yes, but he is also more likely to find good items? Statistics stay the same, regardless of what you think.

Yes, he's likely to find more good items, but how many more do you think he'll get? FWIW, I have several RL friends whom I play D2X with and they MF using MH, and they haven't gotten squat compared to me, while all I do apparently is to make the occasional oddball character and play through hell. I'm not going into their reasons and how justified their actions are here because like I said, it's not the point of this thread.

I do think it makes a huge difference if you can see that your opponent lacks the final breakpoint for his attack. Or if he has no life/mana/res/fhr in his items, searching for a weak point to tear him down without breaking a sweat?

Ok, conceded here, though looking at all the equipment that duellists seem to have nowadays, it'd be surprising if someone didn't hit lwwbp or lacks life/mana/res/fhr. >.<

It might not affect you, but MH is used a lot more then pickit and bot. And about your "nice MH er" and "holy purist crusader", not to sound rude, but people who cheat are often lazy. You'll commonly find them to be rude and childish as well. Atleast the crusaders have better manners.

MH may be used more, I don't know and I don't have the exact statistics. I don't think anyone has either. But pickit affects me far more often in public questing games than MH, and I'd put it that crusaders have no better manners than the cheaters. As for cheaters being lazy, what has that got to do with their manners? I don't use MH or any cheat myself, but I'll be the first to admit that I'm friggin' lazy. In fact, I'm posting this when I should be doing WORK right now. -.-

Although a lot of people keep their mouth shut when a bot teles to baal every game, it doens't mean they'll approve it when a friend uses it, or themselves? Extra note here: I've never seen a tirade going on on bnet? People who don't like MH are very rare. The "legit" players are only about 5% or less from entire bnet. I've never seen them complain on the net, only here on the forums.

I've seen arguements starting when someone admits to using MH before, and it was pretty ugly. Totally killed what would've been a normal questing game, even though the MHer wasn't the one leading the party, being the lowest level and all. Granted they're rare, but it's enough to spoil my day when it happens since it's friggin' hard to find a decent public questing game sometimes.

Well, people who drive an automatic, let's just say, automatic shifting was invented to simplify life for the handicapped people. When regular peeps start using it, agreed, they're pretty lazy. But, because they are so lazy, they might cause more accidents than a regular driver. Because they had an easier training. They don't know how to respond correctly if an accident is immenent. So, eventhough there are worse things out there, we can't ignore the little problems.

Correct, we can't ignore the little problems, and I'm not advocating that we do. But I'm sure that wherever you are, there're far more serious punishments for drunken driving than lazy driving aren't there? Hence this whole thing about looking at the bigger picture - that there are worse hacks out there that should be stopped instead of having everyone conveniently lynching maphackers just because they're the easiest to pick on.

Thanks for keeping a civil tone and discussion.

rykuss

17-07-2005, 16:17

i have to admit, as a causal player, who rarely duels, i really get more irritated at players who pickit, over maphack. the fact that i have no chance to pick up something that drops in a baal run really ticks me off sometimes. the other day, 2 eth cryptic axes and an eth thundermaul were snatched by a high speed teleporter who didnt even stop as they went by (this was of course, the bot that was leading the run).

but, being propositioned for trades on the equipment im wearing is also quite annoying too. i always just reply "i dont recall announcing that i had one and wanted to trade it".

I don't even try to get drops in a pubby game anymore for that same reason.
It's hilarious to me how these people have been running mh for so long that they don't even consider how obvious they are when they proposition you for a piece of gear that they couldn't possibly see. I respond more or less in the same way as you when this happens and i have to say, that two to three minutes it takes them to reply again are priceless.

I picture them sitting there all dumbfounded at the keyboard going "huh"? Then at some point it all comes crashing down on them that they just announced to the whole room that they are using mh. :lol: Yeah ok, i know that on bnet at large alot of people do and don't care......but in my mind i still like to think that most don't. Dilusional? You betcha! It's still funny. :D

RequiemDK

17-07-2005, 16:19

Sarcasm? :scratch:

I said nice arguing with you, because as far as I can see we are both mature people, and giving well thought out response to an argument is quite enjoyable...

I do see the reasoning behind the analogy, hence my arguments against it.
I do see the bigger picture about MFing, but your points dont make any sense. MH leads to (approx) 200% more drops. That can ONLY be bad for Non-MH users.

And btw, if you feel my attitude is slightly better than average B.Net scum, then i will have to say that i wish i played on your realms.

I structure arguments carefully and respond to you with civil tones.

Not:

OMFG NOOBZOR!! HAHA!! I HAXED JOOSZ ACC EARLIEUFDJX!!!! LOLZZZ!!!!!!LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!one!!!ELEVELN TYone!!

So if you cant take a mature conversation and argument about a touchy subject, then dont post here.

Arb

In that case, my apologies and I retract that statement. I probably overreacted due to the aggressive tone of your post. MH btw doesn't lead to 200% more drops. That comes from having 3 players more in the game.

Edit: Actually, I have yet to encounter someone who goes "OMFG NOOBZOR!! HAHA!! I HAXED JOOSZ ACC EARLIEUFDJX!!!! LOLZZZ!!!!!!LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!one!!!ELEVELN TYone!!
" and I play on USWest SCL, generally known to be the cesspool of BNet. Maybe I'm just lucky. The worst I've gotten are repeated "WUG"s when I'm perming a mule, or the classic "hey necro, why is your gear so ****?" despite the fact that he was the one who got mauled to death by fana/amp lister while I killed them during that baal run.

Devastatius

17-07-2005, 16:21

Reading trough this, I must say that you guys are assaulting and bombarding arguments and opinions with your own ones, at least in my eyes (and I don't think I am the only one who sees it whis way). If you'd all be more friendly instead of 'mature', this wouldn't look like a discussion between some little kids :p (notice the emoticon).

-Bugatron

RequiemDK

17-07-2005, 16:22

I don't even try to get drops in a pubby game anymore for that same reason.
It's hilarious to me how these people have been running mh for so long that they don't even consider how obvious they are when they proposition you for a piece of gear that they couldn't possibly see. I respond more or less in the same way as you when this happens and i have to say, that two to three minutes it takes them to reply again are priceless.

I picture them sitting there all dumbfounded at the keyboard going "huh"? Then at some point it all comes crashing down on them that they just announced to the whole room that they are using mh. :lol: Yeah ok, i know that on bnet at large alot of people do and don't care......but in my mind i still like to think that most don't. Dilusional? You betcha! It's still funny. :D

This. I should've just posted something like this instead of those mega-long posts up there. >.<