View Full Version : Is vengence bm?
SnackPack
09-07-2005, 01:02
was just curious... im somewhat new to .10 melee dueling.
back in .09 most duels took place in nm... now they all seem to take place in hell. was just curious if items like bstar, and skills like vengence are still considered bm in hell duel games.
sorry if this is a bit noobish... i just dont like to piss people off.
ps... it seems like LT is not bm... does the same apply for other curses cast on a chance %... such as amp and weaken?
thanks for your time.
with all the other crap like AA nking gold stealing minion stack double teams etc. i dont think vengence (which is an actual skill) is bm. good luck hitting people with that though. especially since with its frames, it prolly wont hit many casters which make up for 80% of pub duelers.
Phyrexial
09-07-2005, 03:29
None of what you mentioned is BM. The most BM thing you listed was Lifetap, but even that has become practically accepted.
The only BM rulebook that matters is the one your mother and father should've or has taught you and that you live by.
Basically, pubby is anything goes, but I would really like to see some simple manners in public since that's where I mostly duel, and it sucks when everyone else is acting like an ***.
And yeah, if you can get a vengence kill, my hats off to you.
not true along with doom. :D (bm though)
Generator Of Chaos
13-07-2005, 02:08
Ok, people, follow me on this:
HOW can it be considered bm to use skills or items in the game?? HOW? so, people aren't allowed to win?
His gear is better? Improve your own gear...
On the other hand, people seem to accept mana potting, wich DOES affect a duel greatly, I'd dare say almost as much as life potions...
Bm, "Bad Manners", in my book, are about atitude, not item usage... Naked Killing, Townguarding, Looting, Potting, Hacking, Jumping... For me THAT is bm...Now using an item design for that purpose?...C'mmon... Soon enough anyone who is an exceptional dueller will be called "bm", cause he's too good...
Ditto Chaos.
I dun believe using skills intended in the game is BM. It's the attitude of duellers that suck. It's always irritating how pubbies can degenerate into a name-calling and noobish-acting session. Especially people who get into games for the sole purpose of ganging up and BMing everyone else.
RetroStar
13-07-2005, 04:42
Considering Vengence is slow and pretty weak. I would say no.
Generator Of Chaos
13-07-2005, 14:00
Considering Vengence is slow and pretty weak. I would say no.
Slow yes, but not weak... Vengeance + Conviction is quite damaging, and I'm considering building one for kicks..just, low on wealth at the moment...eheh..
Ok, people, follow me on this:
HOW can it be considered bm to use skills or items in the game?? HOW? so, people aren't allowed to win?
His gear is better? Improve your own gear...
On the other hand, people seem to accept mana potting, wich DOES affect a duel greatly, I'd dare say almost as much as life potions...
Bm, "Bad Manners", in my book, are about atitude, not item usage... Naked Killing, Townguarding, Looting, Potting, Hacking, Jumping... For me THAT is bm...Now using an item design for that purpose?...C'mmon... Soon enough anyone who is an exceptional dueller will be called "bm", cause he's too good...
I agree mostly, but say in LLD one person decides to shop for a weaken wand...It's not because they are more skillful or because they are even creative, they just decided to buy a wand to give them weaken charges. This forces the opponent to shop a weaken wand (if they want I usually dont bother), but its that easy. I mean if its as simple as buying the item in order to balance the duel again, why bother in the first place, I consider that to be bad manners and kind of childish. Why bother using weaken on me with your lld pally if I'm just gonna stop the duel take my time to buy weaken myself, and use it on you to balance...why not just avoid using it in the first place.
same goes for LR charges etc.
just my .02
cheers
Speederländer
13-07-2005, 20:03
I agree mostly, but say in LLD one person decides to shop for a weaken wand...It's not because they are more skillful or because they are even creative, they just decided to buy a wand to give them weaken charges.
You mean like an assassin shopping a better trap claw? Your example doesn't hold up. You aren't a more skilled dueler by MFing a great item, you were just lucky. You aren't more skilled when you gamble a super good item, you're just lucky. Should you not use those items? All were obtained through the same legitimate game mechanisms, that is, the game gives you several routes to get items: MFing, shopping, and gambling. You claim shopping is BM? Or just certain items? Or is it the skills on certain items? In any event, you see the problem. Using just the slightest extension of your logic, just about anything can be labeled "BM".
Speederländer
13-07-2005, 20:14
There is no such thing as "BM".
If you play in a private group, then you have rules. But that's not what is being discussed here.
If you play in public games there are only two things that are generally frowned upon: Life potting and NKing.
If anything is "BM" (a term I hate), it's merely being impolite and a jerk. If you are polite, the vast majority of people will be polite right back to you, even if they don't conform to someone's personal rules on items, skills, etc.
When people try to claim that mana pots, for example, are "BM", ask them two questions:
1. Where are the official rules we can all look at that say so?
2. Explain how you will know that people used a mana pot at any given time?
The answer to the first question is that there are no such rules.
The answer to the second question is that you can't. Saying mana pots are "BM" is absolutley pointless. You cannot tell when someone uses one. You CAN usually tell when people use a life pot or a rejuv.
Finally, there is the issue that 99% of the people in pubs have no problems using mana pots. The .01% of people who sit around on forums like this and debate imaginary rules for everyone else are the smallest of a tiny minority. So who does this tiny little group think they are and why do their rules (about absorb, or stacked res, or mana pots, or not using this or that skill or item) carry any weight at all? Answer: they don't. Do what YOU want in PUBLIC GAMES. If you want rules, then join a private group and follow the rules.
Generator Of Chaos
13-07-2005, 22:45
I agree mostly, but say in LLD one person decides to shop for a weaken wand...It's not because they are more skillful or because they are even creative, they just decided to buy a wand to give them weaken charges. This forces the opponent to shop a weaken wand (if they want I usually dont bother), but its that easy. I mean if its as simple as buying the item in order to balance the duel again, why bother in the first place, I consider that to be bad manners and kind of childish. Why bother using weaken on me with your lld pally if I'm just gonna stop the duel take my time to buy weaken myself, and use it on you to balance...why not just avoid using it in the first place.
same goes for LR charges etc.
just my .02
cheers
So, basicly we should all be dueling with "short swords" and "bucklers"?
I know what you're saying, but PvP, by definetion, IS elitist... It's the clash of 2 person's "skill" and "build" (including gear, connection is more of a random element)...
I can understand that charges, other than those of skills used by the character using the charged item. But that's kind of "atitude"-related too if you think about it...
Speederländer
13-07-2005, 22:52
So, basicly we should all be dueling with "short swords" and "bucklers"?
I know what you're saying, but PvP, by definetion, IS elitist... It's the clash of 2 person's "skill" and "build" (including gear, connection is more of a random element)...
I can understand that charges, other than those of skills used by the character using the charged item. But that's kind of "atitude"-related too if you think about it...
Taking AzaZaz's example to its logical conclusion, we should all have a single required set of equipment, everyone exactly the same, with no one having any equipment advantage at all, or we should just duel naked, because, afterall, "why bother using item X when I can just get item X myself and use it on you"? All these discussions are just silly unless it is with respect to a dueling group and it's about enforceable rules among the members of that group.
Taking AzaZaz's example to its logical conclusion, we should all have a single required set of equipment, everyone exactly the same, with no one having any equipment advantage at all, or we should just duel naked, because, afterall, "why bother using item X when I can just get item X myself and use it on you"? All these discussions are just silly unless it is with respect to a dueling group and it's about enforceable rules among the members of that group.
no i'm sorry thats not it, i am quite capable of coming to a logical conclusion as generator was able to get what i was saying, i'm sorry it went over your head.
Speederländer
14-07-2005, 02:02
no i'm sorry thats not it, i am quite capable of coming to a logical conclusion as generator was able to get what i was saying, i'm sorry it went over your head.
Trust me, nothing you said "went over my head". If you don't agree with my characterization of your argument, then please feel free to explain how your example, and your opinion of it, don't lead to the exact situation I described when extended to items generally.
Let me use the example of clegs gloves in LLD in .09.
Would you consider those to be bad manners? I know everywhere I dueled they were. They used slow, and it wasnt the creativity, the uniqueness or the "luck" of finding items. Clegs gloves were low lvl, easy to acquire item that anyone can use, so since anyone could get one and anyone could use one, its easier to just avoid using them all together. Thus it became bad manners.
Buying a low lvl wand with weaken charges holds the same bearings. Its low, its cheap, ANYONE can get it. You're refuting my statement by saying "anyone can get anything so you're wrong." Sure, anyone can get a BOTD, does it mean anyone can get it with the same ease or luck? no. Can anyone shop a wand with weaken charges with the same relative ease...yes. Weaken is nothing specific to a persons build that is unique to their character. You may as well say that potions are legit too because I was smarter to buy them before you. You thought about shopping a wand with charges b4 me so you should use it? I thought of find rejuvies too, should I use them? No. Why not? because you could use them too, with the same effort, so instead of both of us rejuving and getting no where, we decide that nobody rejuvs at all. This should be the same as weaken. It has nothing to do with MF, it has nothing to do with luck, it has nothing to do with preparatory work. It gives a slight advantage over your opponent but nothing worth going out of your way for, especially since as soon as your opponent sees this they can go to town and get one of their own, so why bother in the first place.
In no way have I said everyone should be the same, or everyone should build their characters our of the same mould. I love uniqueness of a character, but using weaken charges is anything but unique. I just laugh at ppl when they think they're "tricky" or "cunning" when they weaken me. More often then not i'll duel them regardless of weaken and win. If it's giving me a problem then i'll just go shop one of my own, weaken them right back, and we're back to square one, what has this accomplished? Nothing except wasted my time. Bad Manners? yes.
I think that what offended me the most was your implying that I was saying everyone should be cut from the same mould, which was the opposite of what I was saying. If one person starts using charges available to everyone for that slight edge, then another has to use it to level the playing field, then another and another and sooner or later everyone is using them. Sounds to me like what I was arguing was PRO-individuality and you just twisted my words.
I don't like being talked down to with respect to this game and especially dueling, i've been hardcore dueling for as long as most people here have been softcore dueling and when I get the feeling that because someone writes a guide or they post more frequently on a forum that their opinion means more is offensive. I'm not saying that's your mindset, but I just wanted you to know where I was coming from.
Cheers
thing is : a weaken wand doesnt change anything, if u had weaken cast on u and lost to someone, u would lose to them anyway whether u had weaken or not. (Reason being that it works just like conviction in pvp, takes away 33% from your total % enhanced damage, which is not even equivalent to a 40% ed jewel, after DR and pvp penalty the difference becomes negligible).
thing is : a weaken wand doesnt change anything, if u had weaken cast on u and lost to someone, u would lose to them anyway whether u had weaken or not. (Reason being that it works just like conviction in pvp, takes away 33% from your total % enhanced damage, which is not even equivalent to a 40% ed jewel, after DR and pvp penalty the difference becomes negligible).
Theres no real DR in lld or vld which is the focus of my argument. Im not really talking so much about hld. But if you want to talk about hld I would refer to using Amp charges or LR charges and apply the same argument.
Speederländer
14-07-2005, 21:09
Let me use the example of clegs gloves in LLD in .09.
Would you consider those to be bad manners?
No. Because everyone had equal access to them and there are no (and never were) official rules of "BM". Making them against the rules in a league for balance reasons is one thing, saying they are somehow "BM" is totally arbitrary and ultimately meaningless. Unless you can point to the OFFICIAL rules of BM, saying something is BM is pointless because beyond NKing and life potting there is NO semi-universal agreement on what BM encompasses.
I know everywhere I dueled they were. They used slow, and it wasnt the creativity, the uniqueness or the "luck" of finding items. Clegs gloves were low lvl, easy to acquire item that anyone can use, so since anyone could get one and anyone could use one, its easier to just avoid using them all together. Thus it became bad manners.
Interesting example. So when something is "easy to get" and gives someone an advantage, it's "bad manners" to use it? There are a lot of things in the game that tip the balance to one person or another in a duel, and many of those are relatively easy to get. That doesn't make them BM. Finally, clegs were not universally declared "BM" in public games, which is what we are talking here. Half the people I dueled in pubs (and still duel in pubs) didn't even speak English! Try telling them your "BM" rules. Clegs were banned in SOME leagues, along with several other items, in order to balance the game. But leagues are NOT pubs and rules among private groups are not the Bible of "BM".
Buying a low lvl wand with weaken charges holds the same bearings. Its low, its cheap, ANYONE can get it. You're refuting my statement by saying "anyone can get anything so you're wrong." Sure, anyone can get a BOTD, does it mean anyone can get it with the same ease or luck? no. Can anyone shop a wand with weaken charges with the same relative ease...yes. Weaken is nothing specific to a persons build that is unique to their character.
So your argument is that if something can be gotten with relative ease and it's powerful it's BM? That's sure what it's sounding like...
And of course it's specific, they gave up something to wear it. And who cares anyway? Who are YOU to preach to us about what constitutes "originality" or what is or isn't non-unique?
You may as well say that potions are legit too because I was smarter to buy them before you.
What is "legit"? In any event, all but a tiny fraction of the duelers left on bnet either use mana pots or accept that people use them. Are they all BM while you and few forum people are the sole flames of "legitness" left on battlenet? I don't think so.
You thought about shopping a wand with charges b4 me so you should use it?
So if someone thinks of shopping a nice trapper claw, you must have a real problem with that right? I mean, the only difference is one person spends 15 minutes whereas the other person spends maybe an hour or so. Perhaps the formula for "BM" can be reduced to minutes of shopping? If you can shop it in under 30 minutes, it's suspect and potentially BM. Everything over 30 minutes is ok. Why not? It's just as arbitrary.
I thought of find rejuvies too, should I use them? No. Why not? because you could use them too, with the same effort, so instead of both of us rejuving and getting no where, we decide that nobody rejuvs at all.
Point 1: The only two things people generally get annoyed with in softcore dueling are NKing and using life pots or rejuvs. This IS fairly universal. So, judging by behavior in the vast majority of games, doing such things will get you punished. But personally, you can do ANY BLOODY THING YOU WANT. I will either duel you and kill you anyway (if I can), choose not to duel you because you are life potting, or join with the other duelers to drive you from the game.
Point 2: You say you are a hardcore dueler. Well, this may be a newsflash, but hardcore duelers, AS A RULE, wear a belt full of rejuvs. Don't even try to claim otherwise. I played hardcore extensively in 1.09 (as PvM, PK and PKK) and posted extensively on the HC forum. The first rule of HC dueling is do not die. The second rule of hardcore dueling is kill the other guy. Anything else else goes. If you duel in HC w/o rejuvs, you're naive. And if you try to tell people that people in HC don't regularly rejuv when they duel, you're lying.
This should be the same as weaken. It has nothing to do with MF, it has nothing to do with luck, it has nothing to do with preparatory work.
Half of successful dueling is preparatory work and equipment acquisition!!
It gives a slight advantage over your opponent but nothing worth going out of your way for, especially since as soon as your opponent sees this they can go to town and get one of their own, so why bother in the first place.
Then why the hell are you crying about it!?!?! If it's no big deal, kill the bloke and move on to your next duel. Good grief!
In no way have I said everyone should be the same, or everyone should build their characters our of the same mould. I love uniqueness of a character, but using weaken charges is anything but unique.
Why is it not unique? They gave up something else on that weapon switch for the wand. Go judge someone else.
I just laugh at ppl when they think they're "tricky" or "cunning" when they weaken me. More often then not i'll duel them regardless of weaken and win.
Again, if that's the case, why are you crying about it??
If it's giving me a problem then i'll just go shop one of my own, weaken them right back, and we're back to square one, what has this accomplished? Nothing except wasted my time. Bad Manners? yes.
No, it's not "bad manners". It just annoys YOU personally, and so you want everyone to agree with you that it's "BM".
I think that what offended me the most was your implying that I was saying everyone should be cut from the same mould, which was the opposite of what I was saying. If one person starts using charges available to everyone for that slight edge, then another has to use it to level the playing field, then another and another and sooner or later everyone is using them. Sounds to me like what I was arguing was PRO-individuality and you just twisted my words.
Why do so many pallys use grief on the ladder?
Answer: It's the best weapon to use for melee pallys.
Grief exactly fits your characterization of wands. It's easy to get and it's so powerful everyone uses it. Does that make it "BM"? Of course not. But you won't make that argument will you? You instead stick to this weaken wand nonsense because you know so few people can relate to it. How about this, you start a thread using your same "BM" argument about grief and see how far you get?
I don't like being talked down to with respect to this game and especially dueling, i've been hardcore dueling for as long as most people here have been softcore dueling and when I get the feeling that because someone writes a guide or they post more frequently on a forum that their opinion means more is offensive. I'm not saying that's your mindset, but I just wanted you to know where I was coming from.
I wasn't talking down to you, until now, when you decided to play holier than thou on the BM issue.
In summary, there is no such thing as "BM" in public games except in the minds of some forum people. In the end, the only possible thing that is "BM" is being a jerk (and who defines such behavior anyway?). Trying to say that certain equipment or skills is "BM" is nonsense. There is no universally accepted rule for what "BM" even is, so labeling people as such is arbitrary and, ultimately, serves no purpose beyond this ridiculous bickering. The only people who care are a few forum people to whom this type of thing is somehow critical to daily life. No one else cares. At all.
Speederländer
14-07-2005, 21:18
Theres no real DR in lld or vld which is the focus of my argument. Im not really talking so much about hld. But if you want to talk about hld I would refer to using Amp charges or LR charges and apply the same argument.
Really? What are you going to shop with ease that gives you amp charges? I mean, that IS part of your issue with weaken wands, namely, that they are so easy to get. What item drops from the sky like mana and gives amp charges? Or are you going to alter your position and remove the requirement of "ease of acquistion"?
That aside, using a wand with LR is hardly an over-powering item. You have to give something critical up in almost every situation and you have to stop and aim the LR, which has a tiny radius due to the low level of the LR. If LR wands were overpowering in PvP, everyone would use them. But, in fact, almost no one uses them. The reason is that they provide little if any real advantage. But because you personally don't like them, they get the "BM" stigma.
Earthday
14-07-2005, 21:44
His points make perfect sense Speederlander. Stop trying to make it sound like he's saying something that he isnt.
Speederländer
14-07-2005, 21:52
His points make perfect sense Speederlander. Stop trying to make it sound like he's saying something that he isnt.
Either dispute my points or go argue somewhere else. Being his cheerleader doesn't help him make his case. This "BM" stuff comes up every few weeks with someone claiming that this or that item or skill or practice is BM. Today it's weaken wands and mana pots, tomorrow it's stacking res beyond max, the day after that it's using any absorb at all, and after that it will be assassins using mindblast. It's all arbitrary.
Generator Of Chaos
14-07-2005, 22:13
ok, Speederländer, I know what you're saying, but it's the way you say it that's agrovating. There's something "cocky" about your posts...
Anyways, my point:
As you mentioned, there is NO oficial rulles in pubbies, anything goes... However, everyone has their own "rulles" and things they accept and not, and in pubbies, YOU make your OWN rulles... If someone disrespects them, it's YOUR job to punish them IF you can. Do you understand what I'm saying? There'll be NO blizzard official or anything to punish you for disrespecting MY rulles, but If I have the chance, I will...
MY rulles, are the set of rulles YOU must follow if you wish to duel ME propertly...We can both ignore each other's rulles and either not duel or just pot and lame and whatnot...
Did ANY of this got throught to you?
Earthday: If you're not gonna defend your statements then please don't post. Vague and unfundamented opinions aren't needed, and are solely used for flamming purposes...From the little I know of you, I know you're a cool person, but tend to get defensive very easily, and hostile everyone in the process....Relax...
Speederländer
14-07-2005, 22:40
ok, Speederländer, I know what you're saying, but it's the way you say it that's agrovating. There's something "cocky" about your posts...
If my tone became harsh, it was in response to this:
no i'm sorry thats not it, i am quite capable of coming to a logical conclusion as generator was able to get what i was saying, i'm sorry it went over your head.
If Mr. AzaZaz wants to be condescending, then I certainly don't feel any need to hold back. Rather than simply dispute my point, he left it as his little jibe. Fine by me.
As you mentioned, there is NO oficial rulles in pubbies, anything goes... However, everyone has their own "rulles" and things they accept and not, and in pubbies, YOU make your OWN rulles... If someone disrespects them, it's YOUR job to punish them IF you can. Do you understand what I'm saying? There'll be NO blizzard official or anything to punish you for disrespecting MY rulles, but If I have the chance, I will...
Which has been exactly my point.
MY rulles, are the set of rulles YOU must follow if you wish to duel ME propertly...We can both ignore each other's rulles and either not duel or just pot and lame and whatnot...
Again, we are in total agreement. Just as long as the person disagreeing simply chooses not to duel the person doing the action they don't agree with rather than labeling them "BM", as though that label carried any non-relative meaning whatsoever.
Did ANY of this got throught to you?
Why are you asking me? We are on the same page. It's AzaZaz and his arbitrary labeling of any number of things as "BM" that has been the issue.
Really? What are you going to shop with ease that gives you amp charges? I mean, that IS part of your issue with weaken wands, namely, that they are so easy to get. What item drops from the sky like mana and gives amp charges? Or are you going to alter your position and remove the requirement of "ease of acquistion"?
Gavel of Pain
No you can't shop it but it is not difficult in the least to acquire. You couldnt have answered that question yourself? I mean you need to ask it back on me, trying to find holes in my arguments. Do i really need to explain every small fundamental part of my argument so that you can say that its acceptable? I'm sorry if I assume that the people participating or reading this debate have a general knowledge of the game and assume the same about me. If you want me to break everything down to the smallest explanation i can do that, but frankly you don't need me to. I know you don't but you continue to pressure me to do so as to try and show that some how you and your views are superior.
That's what General is referring to (at least how I see it) when he says this...
ok, Speederländer, I know what you're saying, but it's the way you say it that's agrovating. There's something "cocky" about your posts...
You know what, if you have a problem with the term "Bad Manners" thats fine, don't participate in the discussion. The same as you don't want to hear Earthday's "opinion" thats all you're giving is your opinion the same. I appreciate your opinion and I'm glad you give reasonable support for it, but don't look me up as someone inexperienced or just plain "wrong" because I leave an open ended argument for people to draw their own conclusions.
You are contradicting yourself too. You're arguing there are no set rules for what is and what isn't bad manners. And I don't think anyone is disputing you. But then you turn around and say
because beyond NKing and life potting there is NO semi-universal agreement on what BM encompasses.
show me where it says "no NKing" or "no life potting". You can't. But the fact is in time, things change. Because you don't accept change, you are arguing and twisting my suggestions to have them say what you want them to say.
I've only had time to read your latest reply and when I get home in a few hours I'll reply to your longer more abusive post :)
cheers
Generator Of Chaos
14-07-2005, 23:07
Speederländer: Ok, I see where we're disagreeing, and apologise for not expressing it propertly the first time.
The word "BM", is generaly accepted as used to label something that isn't according to YOUR rulles, know what I mean? "Bad Mannered" or not is only relative to the person who states it...
AzaZaz: It's "Generator Of Chaos", NOT "General", proper reading is fundamental to achieve stable and fruitful comunication.
In a nutshell: Use my damned display name propertly... GOC for short, if you wanna be lazy about it.
in pub, anything goes.
but in private, ur friends will probably not like u using those items.
Speederländer
15-07-2005, 00:31
Gavel of Pain
Yes, I know exactly the item and I also know I've seen one person in the last year use one. And he lost. So what is BM about it? What is overpowering? If everyone can get it easily, as you claim, and it's "BM" as you claim (presumably because it grants an unfair advantage), then why isn't everyone using it? That IS a good part of the argument you made earlier.
Do i really need to explain every small fundamental part of my argument so that you can say that its acceptable?
No, I expect you to actually respond to my points without simply repeating what you have already said. I have pointed out logical errors in your arguments and you refuse to specifically address them.
I'm sorry if I assume that the people participating or reading this debate have a general knowledge of the game and assume the same about me.
*yawn*
If you want me to break everything down to the smallest explanation i can do that, but frankly you don't need me to. I know you don't but you continue to pressure me to do so as to try and show that some how you and your views are superior.
WRONG. I don't claim my views are "superior". I DISAGREE with you and you have decided to take that disagreement as some sort of claim of elitism.
That's what General is referring to (at least how I see it) when he says this...
Who is General?
You know what, if you have a problem with the term "Bad Manners" thats fine, don't participate in the discussion.
My problem is with people trying to publicly attach that term to other people who use certain items or skills that they don't like, as though it carries any meaning outside of your own head. As you are doing.
The same as you don't want to hear Earthday's "opinion" thats all you're giving is your opinion the same.
He HAD NO OPINION, other than some cheerleading spiel. When he presents an opinion, I'll discuss it with him.
I appreciate your opinion and I'm glad you give reasonable support for it, but don't look me up as someone inexperienced or just plain "wrong" because I leave an open ended argument for people to draw their own conclusions.
If you are going to "argue" a point, then argue it. Answer the problems that are pointed out. Instead, you get all bent out of shape.
You are contradicting yourself too. You're arguing there are no set rules for what is and what isn't bad manners. And I don't think anyone is disputing you. But then you turn around and say
No, I'm granting the two things that people in pubs generally have a problem with and PUNISH. The fact that most people don't like NKing doesn't mean there is some sort of "rule" against it. I don't say such actions are evil, I merely state a fact, people generally have a problem with it. Another interesting fact is this: No one cares if someone uses an LR wand, except a subset of the people whom it helps beat. Just like FB sorcs seem to have a problem when someone wears spurs. It's funny how it's all relative. The only things that are NOT relative tend to be NKing and life potting, two things that are universal in their being able to be seen and dealt with. Please expalin how you would police a pubby for mana potting? Let me answer that, you cannot. Therefore, to complain about it or label it BM is absolutley, totally, and completely pointless. If you don't like it, then start a private dueling group and make up some rules.
But the fact is in time, things change. Because you don't accept change, you are arguing and twisting my suggestions to have them say what you want them to say.
I'm not twisting anything. You refuse to answer questions and fully explain your own postions.
I've only had time to read your latest reply and when I get home in a few hours I'll reply to your longer more abusive post :)
I'm only as abusive as people are to me. But maybe that fact has gone over your head? ;)
Speederländer
15-07-2005, 00:39
Speederländer: Ok, I see where we're disagreeing, and apologise for not expressing it propertly the first time.
No need to apologize. I don't feel we are arguing.
The word "BM", is generaly accepted as used to label something that isn't according to YOUR rulles, know what I mean? "Bad Mannered" or not is only relative to the person who states it...
The problem is this: That's not how people here tend to use it. They act as though "BM" applies to everyone and they try to argue that this or that thing is "BM". If "BM" is totally relative, as you say (and as I agree with), and each person recognizes that it is only their own personal thing, then why have threads asking if something is BM or claiming this or that is BM? People here tend to want to use BM in a universal sense, applying it to everyone around them and giving the sense that "BM", as they define it, applies to everyone else. Very few people are nuanced in their use of the term and very few people actually take the time to think it through. People have been using the BM term on this forum for years. In that time, just about everything in the game has probably been slapped with the BM label at one time or the other.
If AzaZaz has been speaking from the point of view that "BM" is entirely relative and the things he lists are really only things he personally has problems with, while giving a nod to the fact that someone else may have a totally different set of "BM" personal rules, then he has certainly failed to make that point at all. He has made universal claims about several things (for example, using LR wands is "BM"), and I'm sure his list goes beyond just the few esoteric items we have been talking about (weaken wands, gavel of pain, etc.). If I misunderstand his position, which is certainly possible, all he has to do is answer the questions and problems I have posed. Instead, he just repeats his same points. This should be easy. He should provide all of his universal set of "BM" rules. Lay them out and answer the questions you, I, and others have posed, including why they should apply to anyone but him alone in public games. If this request is unfair or draconian, then why is he in this thread implying other people are "BM" based on the items they use?
Alternatively, he can simply state the fact that his rules apply to him ONLY and no one else and this whole thing has been nothing but a paper tiger.
Speederländer
15-07-2005, 00:56
in pub, anything goes.
but in private, ur friends will probably not like u using those items.
Exactly.
Though private groups vary greatly. Clan Honor banned teleport from enigma on non-sorcs, for example. Whereas some clans are so permissive as to allow life pots, mercs, etc.
I duel only in pubbies cos I have no clan. It's anything goes in pubbies. However, I do believe the general public sentiment is that NKing and Life-pots potting is frowned upon, thus falling into the category of being BM.
I have been really BM many times. Reason being some pple gang up in duelling rooms and NKs everyone else. It's somehow satisfying (for some perverted reason) that these pple do it. It's the law of the jungle then. Either get out of the game, or gang up with the rest and tit-for-tat time. It was rejuv time for me cos I had to like duel 3 players at a time. BM yes... Survival YES... satisfying to kick the s*** out of these fellas... OHHH YES...
Back to the original topic, vengence is not BM (unless you're in clans... please refer to your clan rules then). Anything and everything is usable in pubbies. Be creative and have fun.
No need to apologize. I don't feel we are arguing.
The problem is this: That's not how people here tend to use it. They act as though "BM" applies to everyone and they try to argue that this or that thing is "BM". If "BM" is totally relative, as you say (and as I agree with), and each person recognizes that it is only their own personal thing, then why have threads asking if something is BM or claiming this or that is BM? People here tend to want to use BM in a universal sense, applying it to everyone around them and giving the sense that "BM", as they define it, applies to everyone else. Very few people are nuanced in their use of the term and very few people actually take the time to think it through. People have been using the BM term on this forum for years. In that time, just about everything in the game has probably been slapped with the BM label at one time or the other.
If AzaZaz has been speaking from the point of view that "BM" is entirely relative and the things he lists are really only things he personally has problems with, while giving a nod to the fact that someone else may have a totally different set of "BM" personal rules, then he has certainly failed to make that point at all. He has made universal claims about several things (for example, using LR wands is "BM"), and I'm sure his list goes beyond just the few esoteric items we have been talking about (weaken wands, gavel of pain, etc.). If I misunderstand his position, which is certainly possible, all he has to do is answer the questions and problems I have posed. Instead, he just repeats his same points. This should be easy. He should provide all of his universal set of "BM" rules. Lay them out and answer the questions you, I, and others have posed, including why they should apply to anyone but him alone in public games. If this request is unfair or draconian, then why is he in this thread implying other people are "BM" based on the items they use?
Alternatively, he can simply state the fact that his rules apply to him ONLY and no one else and this whole thing has been nothing but a paper tiger.
Generator I appologize it was the tail end of a 9 hour work shift infront of a comp so I was lazy and sleepy.
The fact is, you're saying "BM" doesnt exist. Which in itself is inccorect. BAD MANNERS exist. There are good manners and there are bad manners. The debate isnt about whether or not they exist, they just do. And I totally agree with you and everyone else who's said it, there are no set rules as to what is to be deemed bad manners, so when it comes to dueling me, I can only give you examples of what I consider to be impolite dueling.
With reference to "BM" having to do with the items they use, you can refer to Generator's first reply he made to my original post where he clarified it as an attitude towards the items. I thought this was very clear and understandable. Maybe I needed to post a two word reply saying "I agree 10 chars" to show my position...I assumed that since I ddint disagree with him at any point that you would be able to draw the conclusion yourself.
Sir at no time do I truly and honestly care if anyone takes my views and says "you know what, he's right we should all do what he says" because thats not my goal. My point was to give MY opinion on what I consider to be bad manners. If you or anyone else is dueling someone else, I'm not going to step in and say "ah ah ah dont do that, impolite" I don't care. I really don't. But if it has to do with me in a duel of my own, i'm going to say something. Do I have that right? of course I do. If you're in my house eating at my dinner table do I have a right to ask you not to do something because I consider it impolite. By all means I do.
I haven't bothered to respond to all your points because all your points lead away from what I have just said which is the focus of the argument anyways. Bad Manners exist. Like it or not. The fact is you just dont like the term "BM" and you got all pissy that I was trying to throw my 2 cents into what I consider bad manners and I argued with you about it, and didnt just lay down and say "tell me what I should think". Because frankly I don't need anyone to tell me what to think about dueling. I have a good reputation where I duel, and although my opinions may not be accepted by everyone (and I would hope to God that they wouldnt be. Thats now how it should be) they are at least respected. You failed to show me and my opinions respect right from the get go and thats why I have stayed as long as I have.
If you need an example of the disrespect you can scroll down and look at yourself ::yawning:: Is that really called for? All you need now is GG PWNT NUB.
And for clarification when i said "over your head" i wasnt saying that you were beneath my statement, I was simply saying you didnt understand what I was trying to say. So I appologize if you were offended but that wasn't the purpose.
Speederländer
15-07-2005, 09:41
Why do you feel the need to get in a hit vs. me with this:
If you need an example of the disrespect you can scroll down and look at yourself ::yawning:: Is that really called for? All you need now is GG PWNT NUB.
And then follow it up with this:
And for clarification when i said "over your head" i wasnt saying that you were beneath my statement, I was simply saying you didnt understand what I was trying to say. So I apologize if you were offended but that wasn't the purpose.
When my *yawn* was in reply to your insulting tone? Recall your comment that I was replying to with my *yawn* comment:
I'm sorry if I assume that the people participating or reading this debate have a general knowledge of the game and assume the same about me.
Insinuating I’m clueless or something because I didn’t name your gavel of pain, the ubiquitous amp charge machine that everyone has and uses (at least from what I gather from you). You missed my point when I expressely did NOT name it, but whatever. The point is, you decided to get in a hit and I, rather than shooting back, let it slide with the yawn comment.
You b*tch about my tone with you and yet you continue to seek out abuse with your little jibes and condescending comments. You can't have it both ways.
So, that said, and my point made, I'll let it go. You can either chose to let it rest or not, your call.
In any event, with respect to the topic at hand, my point all along has been that "BM" exists only in the mind of the person trying to apply it (and as such, incidentally, the term itself is totally off base). Every single person has a different view of what "BM" is. Therefore, any effort to actually label someone "BM" is really pointless. It MIGHT be useful for you in personally deciding whether or not to duel someone, but the term itself is a problem and ultimately unfortunate. "Bad Manners" implies people are doing something WRONG, when in fact, they are only doing something you don't personally like. There is nothing WRONG with using a wand with weaken charges, even though you don't like dueling people who use such an item. It doesn't make them "Bad Mannered" duelers simply because you disagree with their choice of items. Rather, it means nothing more than you are personally displeased with having to duel someone with that item, for whatever reason. Using the term "Bad Manners" implies someone is doing something wrong, which of course they are NOT.
Therefore, when you say something like this:
The fact is, you're saying "BM" doesnt exist. Which in itself is inccorect. BAD MANNERS exist. There are good manners and there are bad manners.
I have to fundamentally disagree. Because the way you are using the term isn't just for you alone.
The debate isnt about whether or not they exist, they just do.
No, the debate is about whether they are what too many people are misled into thinking they are, that is, somehow universal.
Please note the very first post in this thread:
was just curious if items like bstar, and skills like vengence are still considered bm in hell duel games.
What is he asking for? He's asking for the GENERAL opinion on BM. This is exactly my point.
The same goes for a reply you made a bit later:
...but say in LLD one person decides to shop for a weaken wand...It's not because they are more skillful or because they are even creative, they just decided to buy a wand to give them weaken charges. This forces the opponent to shop a weaken wand (if they want I usually dont bother), but its that easy. I mean if its as simple as buying the item in order to balance the duel again, why bother in the first place, I consider that to be bad manners and kind of childish. Why bother using weaken on me with your lld pally if I'm just gonna stop the duel take my time to buy weaken myself, and use it on you to balance...why not just avoid using it in the first place.
same goes for LR charges etc.
You are making a general observation that using a certain item is "childish" and "bad manners". Now, you do preface that with the words "I consider", but your comments are meant to make the case that it's bad, and not that it's simply something you alone don't enjoy dealing with. Why say that using some item is "childish"? Because you feel the need to label everyone who uses that item. This goes beyond simply not wanting to duel certain combos or an acknowledgement of the actual relativity of your labels. And once you start so labeling people (because at root that is what you are doing), there are going to be people who disagree. Now, most people will fight about the particular item, trying to make the case that it's not overpowered, or whatever. But not me. I have a fundamental problem with all apparently blanket statements on this issue (in particular) and so I argue it on basic principles rather than on a case-by-case basis.
So, in a nutshell, from where I stand, your initial comments about things being "BM" were meant to be fairly universal and apply broadly, just as the original poster who started this thread so intended his comments to apply. As the argument developed, you adopted somewhat the points that were being raised by myself and others against you, nuancing your position, but even at the end you aren't quite being clear. You say that it's entirely relative, yet you seem to still be saying "bad manners" exist, in the sense that people generally think about "bad manners" here, and, if it exists, it means that poor bloke who uses the LR wand is actually doing something wrong/being "childish"/being "bad mannered"/etc. Which is not the case at all. And which has been my point all along.
damnit speed, no ones going to read all that. your going to scare away all the forumers ;O
Speederländer
15-07-2005, 20:11
damnit speed, no ones going to read all that. your going to scare away all the forumers ;O
I've just been too conditioned from arguing on political forums.
There's only probably 3 people left reading this thread anyway. :p
This thread is supposed to be is vengeance bm which it is not, but all you two are doing is going into big conversation about what is bm or what isn't bm? Thats not what this thread was about just answer his question in your own opinion is vengeance bm or not, and stop arguing it doesn't do anything.
chosen: our threads tend to go very off topic, always.
Speederländer
16-07-2005, 02:01
This thread is supposed to be is vengeance bm which it is not, but all you two are doing is going into big conversation about what is bm or what isn't bm? Thats not what this thread was about just answer his question in your own opinion is vengeance bm or not, and stop arguing it doesn't do anything.
We'll take that under advisement. :rolleyes:
Ahahaha sorry if it offended you i just thought it would be nice to answer the gentlemans question with out a long indepth speech about what is bad manner and what is good manner lol.
Speederländer
16-07-2005, 20:07
Ahahaha sorry if it offended you i just thought it would be nice to answer the gentlemans question with out a long indepth speech about what is bad manner and what is good manner lol.
The original poster had already receieved a lot of feedback on his question. The thread topic had morphed slightly to a general discussion of "BM". This is common, not just on this forum but just about every forum (gaming, political, etc.). Topics change as the thread page length grows. In any event, the discussion being had is directly related to his topic, just with a bit of a twist. Who cares if the posts are long anyway? At least it's better than everyone replying with one sentence answers.
The original poster had already receieved a lot of feedback on his question. The thread topic had morphed slightly to a general discussion of "BM". This is common, not just on this forum but just about every forum (gaming, political, etc.). Topics change as the thread page length grows. In any event, the discussion being had is directly related to his topic, just with a bit of a twist. Who cares if the posts are long anyway? At least it's better than everyone replying with one sentence answers.
Makes alot of sense sorry. I Should know better then to say something like that to Speed and the ultimate hammerdin master D-Kay. My mistake I will remeber this from now on sense im only a youngin.
vBulletin® v3.8.4, Copyright ©2000-2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.