Top 5 Versatile PvP Builds?

[soc]

I'm sure most of us know/have come to understand that the BvC barb is the most versatile pvper, but what about #2-5?

This is what I had in mind:

1) BvC Barb

2) PnB Necro

3) Ele Druid

4) V/T

5) Ghost sin

However, speaking to mcm, he thinks Ele Druid is #2. Should the Blizz Sorc be in there? What about the Trapsin?

[Bigrob]

no current pvp sorcs are versatile.

i think wwsin beats ghostin though

[fugitive alien2]

hammers dissed again

['22'Souljah]

i think wwsin beats ghostin though
a ghost sin is a ww sin i don't see why people always fail to see this
a ghost beats a straight ww sin at being versatile plain ww sin is just too slow

anyways my list is
1. BvC barb
2. Bone Necro
3. Ghost sin
4. Windy
5. Hammer

[MonsterSlayer]

Windy>Bone Nec I'd say

BvC
Windy
Bone Nec
Ghost sin
Hammerdin

:)

[Ehein]

You are all forgetting, A good charge/smiter with grief will destroy anyone who doesnt minion stack. Extremely versatile!

[soc]

Aren't hammerdins prone to sorc's, in particular a FB sorc?

I have yet to meet a good hammerdin I guess, but even if they tele on top of you, you have about a second to react and get away. If a good hammerdin could tell me how it could possibly kill something with more range and the same, or faster speed (bone necro/sorcs). If it doesn't do well against those, I don't think it should be in the top 5 versatile builds, considering it can't even kill a char class.

I myself play hammerdin in pvp, and can do desynch charges etc etc, and have been subject to them, but especially as a barb it wouldn't kill you.

[fugitive alien2]

Aren't hammerdins prone to sorc's, in particular a FB sorc?

I have yet to meet a good hammerdin I guess, but even if they tele on top of you, you have about a second to react and get away. If a good hammerdin could tell me how it could possibly kill something with more range and the same, or faster speed (bone necro/sorcs). If it doesn't do well against those, I don't think it should be in the top 5 versatile builds, considering it can't even kill a char class.

I myself play hammerdin in pvp, and can do desynch charges etc etc, and have been subject to them, but especially as a barb it wouldn't kill you.



nobody is prone to sorcs. all elemental is negatable, so elemental attackers can't be thought of as versatile unless they have a 2nd attack. that's a bit of a problem for sorcs.

no you apparently haven't met a good hammerdin. it's not the desynch charge that kills you, it's the invisible hammers you eventually run into.

the only really tough matchup for a prepared hammerdin played to full potential (assuming they have a charge switch for zons, absorb/stack for sorcs etc.) is a mobile bone nec that uses prison/walls a lot to stifle desynch. windys are hard, but given equal skill hammerdin has the advantage. they are so close though that skill usually decides that matchup.

all barbs, all other pally builds, and all sin builds are easy for skilled desynch hammerdin. a hammerdin with charge switch (liberator) is easily top 2-3 most versatile. could make a strong argument for #1.

[fugitive alien2]

I don't think it should be in the top 5 versatile builds, considering it can't even kill a char class.

barbs can't kill hammerdins. should barbs be in the top 5?

['22'Souljah]

You are all forgetting, A good charge/smiter with grief will destroy anyone who doesnt minion stack. Extremely versatile!
except a ww barb or hammerdin

[soc]

barbs can't kill hammerdins. should barbs be in the top 5?

Luis plays NL E and mcm plays L and NL W. Bring your hammerdin to them and say you can beat them.

I personally don't lose to pub hammerdins, although the ones that show up in private duels are much harder. However, I've probably tapped into 6/10 of the potential a bvc barb can unleash.

I believe the answer was using widowmaker to force them out of hammerfields. If their moving out of their hammerfield, their dead. If their charging you, just whirl away, their dead.

[Speederländer]

Luis plays NL E and mcm plays L and NL W. Bring your hammerdin to them and say you can beat them.

I personally don't lose to pub hammerdins, although the ones that show up in private duels are much harder. However, I've probably tapped into 6/10 of the potential a bvc barb can unleash.

I believe the answer was using widowmaker to force them out of hammerfields. If their moving out of their hammerfield, their dead. If their charging you, just whirl away, their dead.

First, I agree that barbs can beat hammers.

HOWEVER, it ain't no cakewalk. The best hammer pallies out there can keep the best barbs to the 50% win range. Those pallies simply pack too much damage. No one playing a barb EVER is 100% accurate everytime they whirl. And with the best hammer pallies, one mistake tends to get you killed.

Neither group can claim dominance over the other.

[Bigrob]

barb is just the most verstaile char, but not the strongest. i agree with speederlander, there are hammerdins that can beat ww barbs. so as bonemancer, wind druid, or smiters.

there is no perfect pvp char.

[inkanddagger]

I have beaten every build and class with my fury druid.


does this mean fury > all?

[Bigrob]

I have beaten every build and class with my fury druid.


does this mean fury > all?

well, maybe u should duel some "good" players, like mcm or others.

how about we play each other and see?

[mrJ]

I have beaten every build and class with my fury druid.


does this mean fury > all?Yes

(mep isn't around anymore so I had to say it)

Luis plays NL E and mcm plays L and NL W. Bring your hammerdin to them and say you can beat them.Can he just say he beat blobs 90348590834 times? (Just a rough random estimate, probably overshot a tad.)

[fugitive alien2]

I believe the answer was using widowmaker to force them out of hammerfields. If their moving out of their hammerfield, their dead. If their charging you, just whirl away, their dead.


a good desyncher won't be standing still in his hammerfield - if you're stationary he'll stealth approach and try to surround you with invis hammers - if you're running, whirling, or tele-whirling, he'll try to anticipate and lead you with invis hammers.

widowmaker changes the dynamics of the duel a little, but i never had much of a problem with it. damage wasn't scary enough on a barb.

[Bigrob]

a good desyncher won't be standing still in his hammerfield - if you're stationary he'll stealth approach and try to surround you with invis hammers - if you're running, whirling, or tele-whirling, he'll try to anticipate and lead you with invis hammers.

widowmaker changes the dynamics of the duel a little, but i never had much of a problem with it. damage wasn't scary enough on a barb.

ya, but is a way to let hammerdin to get out of his hammer field. The problem with hammer is that it's hard to make it offensive.

soc- Most barb do tele and ww away, due to the fact that hammer does so much dmg and it's not wise to stay in here for too long, and u cant alway find the blind spot.

[dkay]

barbs can't kill hammerdins. should barbs be in the top 5?

hammerdins should be up there. they are one of the most powerful builds in the game. with desync they can kill anything (esp since i killed top players even without desync and just smarts)

but no fa your wrong. i dont know if you still play anymore but things have changed since the beginning of .10 and now. i have personally experienced the wrath of dueling a bvc barb. ive lost countless times to blobs with my 4k max dr 13k hammer hammerdin. desync or not. (if i desynced... he would desync me as well so the duels got a bit confusing) of course ive killed him just as much, but just pointing out that its not impossible.

vrs bvc barbs i found that its better not to desync because you really.. really need to know what your doing. and yes widow isnt used for the damage. its used to just transfer OW then let you loss 800 life at a time. basically to make you take the offensive.

personally i think whirlwind desync is a lot scarier than hammer desync but thats just my opinion.

[fugitive alien2]

but no fa your wrong.


nah i dueled in 1.10 for a year or more, including against widow barbs (pub, not necessarily pros, but the dynamics were apparent). only thing that's changed since i quit is ladder runewords - grief smiter with fanat/widow switch would be an interesting challenge.

never had to chance to face blobs with widow, but i never used cta against him either (2.3 life) and most duels weren't close and were over quickly, so cta would offset widow ow i think if necessary. also i had hella stacked regen to go along with med, too. blobs thought i was potting at first ><

i was always aggressive when he was stationary anyway - laying traps then trying to force him into them.

[soc]

fa I still don't understand. Barbs can beat hammerdins, so your original statement is incorrect.

From what I know, I thought hammerdins couldn't beat sorcs, without absorbing/max resisting. Barbs can be sorcs without absorbing/max resisting. The reason is barbs have a form of stun (leap) and can attack faster (4 frames vs. 9 frames).

[Speederländer]

widow isnt used for the damage. its used to just transfer OW then let you loss 800 life at a time. basically to make you take the offensive.


OW is nerfed on ranged I believe. And OW at lvl 90 on melee delivers 500 over 8 seconds, IIRC. I never felt that the widow made a big difference since they all have 75% block. Good hammers are heavily offensive, forcing the barb to think on the run, creating a greater opportunity to mess up. The better hammers pretend that the widow isn't even there and, if they are offensive, the barb almost never has a chance to break it out anyway.

I've always felt that hammers have the edge on barbs.

I'm not including the 2 or 3 people who have spent their every waking hour getting every perfect item on their barb and practicing 10 hours a day. They aren't representative anyway. A typical good hammer pally vs. a typcial good BvC barb, on average, I would predict a 30% to 40% win rate for the barb.

[Speederländer]

personally i think whirlwind desync is a lot scarier than hammer desync but thats just my opinion.

I agree with that.

[fugitive alien2]

fa I still don't understand. Barbs can beat hammerdins, so your original statement is incorrect.

From what I know, I thought hammerdins couldn't beat sorcs, without absorbing/max resisting. Barbs can be sorcs without absorbing/max resisting. The reason is barbs have a form of stun (leap) and can attack faster (4 frames vs. 9 frames).


of course barbs can beat hammerdins. my statement was given equal skill and played to full potential hammerdins have huge advantage over barb.

hammerdins can beat sorc without absorb, it's just a lot tougher obviously. in general barbs are better against sorcs than hammerdins are yes. i was being facetious about barbs not in top 5, obviously they are. just hammerdins are right there too even though they are usually thought of as lower on the food chain.

hmm i've never known leap to work on a good sorc, or anything else for that matter lol.

[MonsterSlayer]

of course barbs can beat hammerdins. my statement was given equal skill and played to full potential hammerdins have huge advantage over barb.

hammerdins can beat sorc without absorb, it's just a lot tougher obviously. in general barbs are better against sorcs than hammerdins are yes. i was being facetious about barbs not in top 5, obviously they are. just hammerdins are right there too even though they are usually thought of as lower on the food chain.

hmm i've never known leap to work on a good sorc, or anything else for that matter lol.

Being suddenly stunned for about 1 sec is a lot of time.

[Speederländer]

Being suddenly stunned for about 1 sec is a lot of time.

With good opponent FHR, that stun is really hard to capitalize on...

[TheODB]

pardon, but what is a BvC barb?

[Bigrob]

pardon, but what is a BvC barb?

bvc barb = barb vs. caster. the ww barb who uses base str/dex, and all goes to vita. The good one can possibly achieve 8k life.

[soc]

hmm i've never known leap to work on a good sorc, or anything else for that matter lol.

Then you haven't dueled a good bvc.

With good opponent FHR, that stun is really hard to capitalize on...

Sorc's have good fhr? :lol:

[Speederländer]

Sorc's have good fhr? :lol:

Sorcs are only one small subset of all the duelers out there. And a 200 FCR sorc is rarely even on your screen. She shoots from just outside it (or further away). Meaning that even IF you have a high level leap KB that goes beyond your screen, you couldn't take advantage of it anyway.

Leap is a good skill for BvC. But it's not all its cracked up to be. Blobs' guide talked it up a lot, but in reality, if your opponent is GOOD, it's not going to help all that much. Do your little leap thing against a good bone nec and you'll be eating BS even if he gets stunned now and then. Same thing goes for fast sorcs. Leap is good vs. moderately skilled opponents and getting the OCCASIONAL edge on the good ones.

[soc]

*sigh* allright, necro's have bad fhr, same with druids, along with sorcs. Amazon's aren't great either. Is that enough skill classes?

I already know how a 200 FCR sorc functions. I have one myself :).

Taking a couple of BS won't kill you. Take a 6k BS (which is on the elite end in damage). PvP penalty cuts that to 1k. Good barbs have 8k+ life. 8 BS's to kill them. They'll take a couple to get one leap off, and once the opponent is in fhr you can tele-whirl. Anyway, good necro's vs. good barbs is still highly debated and it's generally seen as a 50/50 battle.

[rare]

Then you haven't dueled a good bvc.


but leap doesn't work. just stay off screen/at the corners. if by some chance you get kb'd, you'll be out of the screen so you can't be locked or anything.

[dys0r]

Leap does work. Have you ever seen maxed leap on a good BvC barb? It kb's you from like 1.5 screens away. And you're not supposed to use long leaps, just like you're not supposed to do long whirls. And, 200 fcr sorcs are far from uncatchable. All it takes is one good lock, then they're done for (if not, they'll be bleeding from open wounds). I haven't even mentioned how negateable their damage is.

- Terry

['22'Souljah]

Leap is a good skill for BvC. But it's not all its cracked up to be. Blobs' guide talked it up a lot, but in reality, if your opponent is GOOD, it's not going to help all that much. Do your little leap thing against a good bone nec and you'll be eating BS even if he gets stunned now and then. Same thing goes for fast sorcs. Leap is good vs. moderately skilled opponents and getting the OCCASIONAL edge on the good ones.
in reality blobs rarely even used leap either but that's just from what i saw when i watched him duel
i agree with speed lander's statement about leap
i want to add that it's less useful vs people that can spam a lot of stuff off screen like fb sorcs, necros, corner blizzers
vs people who have to be on your screen though like trappers, orbers, hammerdins (most of them), and wind druids it's very useful

[fugitive alien2]

it's useless against hammerdins

['22'Souljah]

it's useless against hammerdins
yea but lukcily most hammerdins sukc and don't charge so it works on them

[mcm]

I'm not including the 2 or 3 people who have spent their every waking hour getting every perfect item on their barb and practicing 10 hours a day. They aren't representative anyway. A typical good hammer pally vs. a typcial good BvC barb, on average, I would predict a 30% to 40% win rate for the barb.

I can agree with that.

in reality blobs rarely even used leap either but that's just from what i saw when i watched him duel


I hope everyone realises that the character "Blobs" had about 6 incarnations, the final one having 14 points placed in leap. That happened for a reason.
Also Wei had a somewhat suicidal strategy versus hams, I thought it was too high risk to be reliable.

it's useless against hammerdins

That's true.

[dkay]

yes wei did have some suicidal attack methods, but they seemed to have worked well. he would agressively whirl into some hammers purposely, take a hit or two, but get 2-3 hits on me at the same time. the damage swap would be:
him getting 4k life taken away. me getting 2000ish~ not including the OW that would insue right after. of course sometimes i would block all his whirls, but sometimes he would hit me multiple times, pretty much luck based. i remember he killed my hammerdin in 2 whirls a couple times.

fa i know you havent recently dueled him since i was with in all the time during the last hours of his d2 days so just a fyi: he changed a lot of his strats against hammys. ive dueled him many times throughout .10 and saw his progression against hammerdins. im sure he would have done much better against you now then when you dueled him.

22 soulja: whats your acc name and char you use. i dont recall seeing you in any priv games with me and wei. esp since i know personally that he loved to abuse leap.

[fugitive alien2]

fa i know you havent recently dueled him since i was with in all the time during the last hours of his d2 days so just a fyi: he changed a lot of his strats against hammys. ive dueled him many times throughout .10 and saw his progression against hammerdins. im sure he would have done much better against you now then when you dueled him.


i doubt he'd do much better except from whatever benefit widow gave him (i probably would have had to use cta to maintain comfort zone). otherwise there's nothing a barb can do that can't be easily adjusted to once you figure out what he's doing. some of the strats you are probably talking about he brainstormed during or because of our duels. i can see some of the stuff he tried or talked about trying working well against hammerdins that weren't so desynch happy, but not against a maniac desyncher :D

i didn't say we dueled recently, was something like late summer 04 i think.

[AzaZaz]

From a hardcore perspective I'll take a hammerdin over a BvC barb or any barb for that matter. When it comes down to it, after maybe 50 duels etc it may break even if both chars are skilled in their classes, however in hc the only duel that counts is the first one, and more often then not the hammerdin is going to be the one taking the ear on the first duel. Reason being, as mentioned previously, the margin for error is on the barb not the pally. The pally doesn't have to make a mistake to lose, the responsibility is on the barb to make a perfect tele, or a concious ww/zerk and if he screws up, he's dead. It would take a pretty unskilled pally to make a drastic mistake with a hammerdin, the simplest of ppl can camp in a hammerfield and side step a tele zerk.

So yes after a bunch of practice and spars the barb might even come out on top after learning the pallys patterns and getting a few good dodges in, however from my perspective theres only one duel that counts, there are no second chances. If I want a hammerdin ear, I'll go with a two handed fury druid. Friend of mine had one specifically designed for hammerdins, 14k life/dmg it was disgusting, but anyways thats another debate :)

The topic of discussion isnt "which is better hammerdin or barb" its which is the most versatile, in terms of versatility and being able to duel the most classes without having to change your skill allocation (or gear too drastically) My vote would be for the barb nonetheless. Altho I wouldnt choose him in a duel over a hammerdin, thats only 1 specific build for 1 class, not very important in the big scheme of things.


Cheers


Aaron

['22'Souljah]

22 soulja: whats your acc name and char you use. i dont recall seeing you in any priv games with me and wei. esp since i know personally that he loved to abuse leap.
i only saw him in a few pubbie games
i quitted d2 though it's more fun to talk about it on forums then play it

[dkay]

oh ok i see. haha that means that you saw him being BM and etc with Planters, Duelzer, Firestarter, and Redempt. (we were all close d2 friends) when you see him duel in pubs.. were just screwing around.. his private style of dueling and pub are completely different hehe. hopefully we didnt nk you or anything since we tend to do that in all pub pks... ;O

['22'Souljah]

oh ok i see. haha that means that you saw him being BM and etc with Planters, Duelzer, Firestarter, and Redempt. (we were all close d2 friends) when you see him duel in pubs.. were just screwing around.. his private style of dueling and pub are completely different hehe. hopefully we didnt nk you or anything since we tend to do that in all pub pks... ;O
nope blobs got super nice when i started asking him questions about barbs
but i do remember one time we 6 v 1'd him :cool:

[dkay]

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh that was you. i remember a couple people asking him questions. of course im still not sure which one you are :X

yes sometimes in pub pk i would turn on him and join the rest of the idiots who are trying to take him down 6 v 1 lol. alright thanks for the info.

[Dirty Scorpion]

1) Ele dru
2)b necro
3)BvC/BvA baba
4)hammerdin
5)foh

[Bigrob]

1) Ele dru
2)b necro
3)BvC/BvA baba
4)hammerdin
5)foh

foher is not even in the most verstaile char list!

basically anyone who specializes in single elemental attack does not consider to be "verstaile."

[Bigrob]

yes wei did have some suicidal attack methods, but they seemed to have worked well. he would agressively whirl into some hammers purposely, take a hit or two, but get 2-3 hits on me at the same time. the damage swap would be:
him getting 4k life taken away. me getting 2000ish~ not including the OW that would insue right after. of course sometimes i would block all his whirls, but sometimes he would hit me multiple times, pretty much luck based. i remember he killed my hammerdin in 2 whirls a couple times.

fa i know you havent recently dueled him since i was with in all the time during the last hours of his d2 days so just a fyi: he changed a lot of his strats against hammys. ive dueled him many times throughout .10 and saw his progression against hammerdins. im sure he would have done much better against you now then when you dueled him.

22 soulja: whats your acc name and char you use. i dont recall seeing you in any priv games with me and wei. esp since i know personally that he loved to abuse leap.

sometime, i place a random ww on screen. And if he tried to tele or shift-charge around, then they will get hit if im lucky.

Same thing apply here to sorcs or the ppl who uses tele too much. U basically draw a curve of ww, (a circle arc) then u will hit if they are superly aggressive.

i dont think suicidal attack is a good idea since a good hammerdin will have good def and max block.

[hks489]

Poisonmancer + Bone addons is the most versatile.

[Ragnarok-]

Barb, Druid, Sin, Nec/Hammer, v/t

[dkay]

"sometime, i place a random ww on screen. And if he tried to tele or shift-charge around, then they will get hit if im lucky.

Same thing apply here to sorcs or the ppl who uses tele too much. U basically draw a curve of ww, (a circle arc) then u will hit if they are superly aggressive.

i dont think suicidal attack is a good idea since a good hammerdin will have good def and max block."


the hammerdin i dueled him with was a 4k life, 45+ish dr, 20k def hammerdin and wei ripped it pretty quick =.=. but then again, wei is a risk taker so its just his type of playing style. everyone has thier own handlings on characters, suicidal method is just 1 of the many ways to duel.

[Xenon[XoA]]

windy w/ summon stack
bone nec
smite/charge/res pala
hammerdin
bvc barb

Sort of surprised only a few others mentioned smite. with nuff practice, takes down hammers and most barbs that ppl'v mentioned. polearm / lancebarbs sometimes a problem.

[dkay]

smiters cant take down any decent barb or hammerdin. especially hammerdin.

[Weltkriegpally]

smiters cant take down any decent barb or hammerdin. especially hammerdin.

if that hammerdin namelock teleports they sure as hell can. Especially on ladder. If not, then its about a 60/40 match in favor of the hammerdin

--welt

[fugitive alien2]

If not, then its about a 60/40 match in favor of the hammerdin

--welt


it might be if the smiter has widow switch to force action, otherwise it's no contest. i don't recall ever losing to a smiter with 1.10 hammerdin in a serious duel.

[dkay]

i agree with fugitive 100%. anyways any good hammerdin would know not to name lock teleport. only if he has widow would i ever do that. i always teleport under the smiter, or just simply desync trap him. both makes short work of them.

[RetroStar]

smiters cant take down any decent barb or hammerdin. especially hammerdin.

Any decent barbs can kill smiters. Well in East NL. I think it's gonna be the same for other realms.

[luis19]

leap not useful?
sounds like you all havent used it before. it works on basically every class.

necs - if they are on the edge of your screen spamming bs at you, short leap, then tele ww. you can also use it to blow up some bs, but its risky.

i agree it isnt as useful vs hammerdins as it is for sorc/nec/druids/zons/sins, but if they are agressive telehammerdins, it works very very good when they tele ontop of or close to you. basically a free ww or 2.

but really, leap is extremely useful, especially vs sorcs and druids.
before when i didnt have leap, i had problems with windys and necs, now with my new build i havent lost a series to either, dueling many of the same people that used to beat me.

hammer vs barbs. the best of the best hammerdins are arguably the hardest duel for a barb. i'd say its about a 50/50 duel given equal gear/skill.
however on east, only 2-3 hammerdins have had the pleasure of winning at all vs me, however they still lose a majority of the duels.
i dont play much anymore but i still have the same win/lose ratio simply because i know exactly what to do, not really skill, but more of strategy.

yeah a hammerdin can make invisible hammers in spots where he predicts you will go, but that is aviodable by constantly changing direction, making it much harder to predict. this isnt done by most barbs, they simply ww downward.
widowmaker- i use this mainly to duel overly defensive hammerdins, otherwise i stick to ww. ~250 OW on missiles doesnt hurt either to throw at them every now and then.

leap is somewhat useful, but not like vs other classes. i rely on leap to move when im not wwing since you cant be hit in leap and to prevent being locked up in fhr. also sometimes you can kb a hammerdin and find an openining, i.e. when they are teleing or when they stop during charging to cast hammers. doesnt happen often but you can get a good ww in if you catch them.

i use desync wws as my main way to attack since attackign them headon is suicide. by making these desynced ww's random i can avoid alot of deynced hammers and usually force the hammerdin to go where i want.

if you need to see how its done:
*dirtydozen131
useast nl

any questions just ask i dunno if i explained clearly or thoroughly enough at all

[dkay]

if you guys dont beleive in leap, go to barb forum and look at mcms thread, theres a video tehre about how it works along with short whirls.

[Bigrob]

leap is good when in bvc, but it's suicidal in bvb. :thumbsup:

[luis19]

not if the other person is stupid

[fugitive alien2]

if you need to see how its done:
*dirtydozen131
useast nl



too bad i never had anything on east ^^

[sequoia]

im a newb to dueling but im getting very interested, what chars tend to beat what other chars?

im reading that hammerdin vs bvc and bone nec vs bvc are generally pretty even, what about mind blast trapsins, charge smiters, v/t, fb sorcs, etc: how do they measure up with bone necs and bvc?