View Full Version : Bramble vs. Fortitude
Here it is: I have a awsome WWsin. I love her but, Im stuck on somthing. Bramble or Fortitude? I know WWsins should focus on Poison damage and all but Foritude has rediculous mods. Please reply if you know the true answer and why you chose that answer. Thank you
Speederländer
23-06-2005, 20:22
Here it is: I have a awsome WWsin. I love her but, Im stuck on somthing. Bramble or Fortitude? I know WWsins should focus on Poison damage and all but Foritude has rediculous mods. Please reply if you know the true answer and why you chose that answer. Thank you
Enigma. Always.
Trojan Man
23-06-2005, 22:20
..Why enigma?? You have Dflight to get to them.
On my WWSin I use Bramble Just for the Extra Poison Damage . I Find its more prefrence than what is better. I Myself have tried both and just pefered Bramble.
Enigma. Always.
Yea seriously where are you going with the whole Enigma thing? lol
bramble > fort for ww sin.
due to the fact that most wwsins do only slightly physical dmg, fort wont increase much.
Enigma. Always.
ALWAYS!!! lisen to the guy, he knows what he`s talking about! dragon flight is so buggy and atacks at 24 frames!!! you`ll never beat a good caster, trust me!
Enigma, but if you dont wanna be good vs casters, go bramble.
ALWAYS!!! lisen to the guy, he knows what he`s talking about! dragon flight is so buggy and atacks at 24 frames!!! you`ll never beat a good caster, trust me!
u dont use df for attack, u use for tele. Yes, i know is really buggy and it will get interrupted, but then most wwsins dont even put on fcr gear. so df is considered more than use enigma for tele.
Speederländer
24-06-2005, 01:19
Enigma, but if you dont wanna be good vs casters, go bramble.
That's reversed. You CAN wear bramble on melee only duels. But that means you lack the str boost of the enigma generally since you didn't design around it. You can beat all melee with enigma except good ww barbs. Bramble doesn't change this.
Speederländer
24-06-2005, 01:19
Yea seriously where are you going with the whole Enigma thing? lol
Do a little reading before you "lol" anything.
Speederländer
24-06-2005, 01:21
..Why enigma?? You have Dflight to get to them.
On my WWSin I use Bramble Just for the Extra Poison Damage . I Find its more prefrence than what is better. I Myself have tried both and just pefered Bramble.
Dragon flight is only really useful vs. casters when you have teleport to position yourself. Otherwise it can never be depended on. At all. Further, a bramble build pre-supposes lack of fast cast. This means Mind blast ceases to be a serious worker for you. Again, a big mistake generally.
That's reversed. You CAN wear bramble on melee only duels. But that means you lack the str boost of the enigma generally since you didn't design around it. You can beat all melee with enigma except good ww barbs. Bramble doesn't change this.
i doubt u need the str from enigma though...most of them can get their claw req with base str without enigma.
but again, is personal prefrence.
Speederländer
24-06-2005, 01:23
u dont use df for attack, u use for tele. Yes, i know is really buggy and it will get interrupted, but then most wwsins dont even put on fcr gear. so df is considered more than use enigma for tele.
This is why most ww sins aren't any good vs. casters. Show me a ww-sin that uses bramble and I'll show you a ww-sin that loses 9 times out of 10 to any caster with a clue.
Speederländer
24-06-2005, 01:27
i doubt u need the str from enigma though...most of them can get their claw req with base str without enigma.
but again, is personal prefrence.
It all depends on what full equipment you are wearing. A well-built enigma ww-sin with 65 fast cast and the works will often wear shadow dancers and a CoA. The shadow dancers pay for themselves in stats, giving you 25 dex to make up for the str you spent, along with 30 FHR and +2 shadow skills. From there it's only a 7 pt. str investment to get a CoA, which ends up being superior to all other helms, though an .08 valk can be argued to be better in certain configurations.
This is why most ww sins aren't any good vs. casters. Show me a ww-sin that uses bramble and I'll show you a ww-sin that loses 9 times out of 10 to any caster with a clue.
so kicker has faster fcr? they rarely put on fcr gears also.
Speederländer
24-06-2005, 01:28
so kicker has faster fcr? they rarely put on fcr gears also.
And they fare just as poorly.
DarkMousy
24-06-2005, 05:16
I remember my friend spent a fortune making his "perfect" bramblesin, got a ton of charms, 5/5 faceted everything he could, etc... claimed it as the be all and end all caster killer. He had serious issues attempting to catch my blizz sorc when she was teleing at 9 frames, when I swapped the snowclash out for arachs to hit the next frame it was a joke. I don't even need to discuss how he fared against any decent 200fcr fb or lite sorcs. Dflight is too buggy, requires 24 frames, and factoring in the max block that most good casters have, dflight becomes somewhat useless.
A good wwsin typically uses enigma, hits a much better fcr bp making use of a maxed mindblast (invaluable when facing hammerdins, can't be stressed enough, and for stunlocking with help from traps), and has a much more flexible gear choice (coa is simply godly along with shadow skill boost from shadow dancers.)
With the fcr, tele allows you a chance to catch more defensive casters and position yourself for dflight if you please. If you've ever dueled a GOOD defensive es sorc or necro with a bramblesin, you'll know that you're not getting anywhere.
Let's not forget the frw bonus that enigma gives.... again, useful in instances where you'll prefer to run or walk quickly rather than tele (dodging traps and escaping a stunlock).
Let's compare the gains you get from bramble as opposed to enigma:
Bramble:
*massive psn dmg increase, fhr, some res, slight mana increase
Enigma:
*+1 teleport, massive str increase allowing for much more flexibility in gear, 45% frw, slight life increase, +2 skills (helps mindblast + traps alot)
The fhr from bramble is easily countered by the resists/dr/fhr from a ber ber coa (or psn facets if you can get dr from elsewhere), the mana increase could be replaced by an arachnids (which on a bramble build would IMO be inferior to a verdungos, as the fcr isn't needed and teh dr of dungos would be needed). Also, fhr on an enigma build also comes from shadow dancers.
The only time a wwsin should be using bramble is vs another wwsin. The only other char where the increased damage would be useful would be a wwbarb, which is completely irrelevant as any good wwbaba would not be beaten by a wwsin. Enigma might even be better in that case, as ww against a barb = death, so mb might be a better, if redundant and boring choice.
hmmm you can pre-buff venom with a dusk bramble and still using enigma!!!
Speederländer
24-06-2005, 08:08
hmmm you can pre-buff venom with a dusk bramble and still using enigma!!!
I tried the whole pre-buff route. It sucks unless it's for a tournament (and the rules even allow it). You quickly get tired of running to your stash every few minutes to buff venom. In any event, you lose the str bonus on enigma that makes it possible to wear CoA and shadow dancers. It is the the trio of enigma/CoA/shadow dancers that helps make ghost variants so strong. The only thing that compete are builds made with hyper rare 20 FC circlets with skills, stats, AR, etc. etc. and other off-the-wall stuff. The only thing I assume you get for a CoA/dancer build is a FC ammy and a FC ring, both of which are readily available.
A) No clue what kind of barbs you're beating with enigma on.
B) I wanna see your 65% fcr keep up with a GOOD sorc who's been aound and knows how to actually tele. I'm talking .09 tele not the weak teleing they do these days. I know you don't have the mana for that.
C) Bramble/Fort/Enigma doesn't matter you wont beat a solid Charge/Smiter. And no, smiters that are dumb enough to chase after you are not solid players.
Speederländer
25-06-2005, 01:20
A) No clue what kind of barbs you're beating with enigma on.
The not very good ones. No one claims that ww sins can beat good ww barbs. Neither enigma nor bramble will get you to beat good barbs regularly.
B) I wanna see your 65% fcr keep up with a GOOD sorc who's been aound and knows how to actually tele. I'm talking .09 tele not the weak teleing they do these days. I know you don't have the mana for that.
This shows that you haven't played this type of assassin AT ALL. You describe a situation of pure chase. Where the sorc is constantly trying to run away as fast as possible. That is not what actually happens. Unless it's a defensive orb sorc, they actually have to play slightly aggressive to kill you. They have to shoot their FB, place their blizzard, fire their lightning, etc. This means, that you don't have to get them in a straight line race, you just have to GET ON THEIR SCREEN. Which is very possible. You can then go with DF, MB name-lock to tele/WW, MB/trap, etc. There are no sorcs on USWest ladder I can't go at least 50% against. Most of them I go better than 90%.
I have 900 mana. I don't waste it by mindless chasing of defensive sorcs. If they are faster than me and only run away, I let them come to me. Any other tactic would just be stupid.
C) Bramble/Fort/Enigma doesn't matter you wont beat a solid Charge/Smiter. And no, smiters that are dumb enough to chase after you are not solid players.
Funny, I beat solid charge/smiters all the time. I don't go 100%, but I do go at least 50%. I regularly duel the 4K+ life smiters with exile and grief and a hellish charge. They sport 10 skill GCs, have great equipment, and present a VERY hard duel almost every time. And I do just fine. My biggest problem is when their charge desyncs my WW. With grief, ladder pallys are tougher than non-ladder pallys.
You bring any sorc or any smiter to a USWest ladder game and I'll go at least 50%.
jokermwx
25-06-2005, 03:13
I would like to see your WW-sin Speed. I have one on non-ladder, and I use Bramble. I want to see were I have gone wrong. What charms do you use also? How do you get your AR high enough to hurt Barbs and Pally's? I'm on west. Can you send me your acct name so I can see your Sin?
Speederländer
25-06-2005, 03:22
I would like to see your WW-sin Speed. I have one on non-ladder, and I use Bramble. I want to see were I have gone wrong. What charms do you use also? How do you get your AR high enough to hurt Barbs and Pally's? I'm on west. Can you send me your acct name so I can see your Sin?
*Apokalyptik, USWest ladder
I use 10x shadow skill GCs, 9x life/mana SCs, 1x anni
You bring any sorc or any smiter to a USWest ladder game and I'll go at least 50%.
I'd love to take you up on that but I'm Ladder East :(
Its .8 valk that makes most ghost varients so strong just to let you know. You arent gonna find nearly as many 65% fcr sins with coa and dancers as you will find koda build sins. Though from what you've posted your build is good, even competitive vs koda's.
Speederländer
25-06-2005, 22:44
Its .8 valk that makes most ghost varients so strong just to let you know. You arent gonna find nearly as many 65% fcr sins with coa and dancers as you will find koda build sins. Though from what you've posted your build is good, even competitive vs koda's.
There is basically no difference between the two, just to let you know. I've played both. A lot. Both have small strengths and weaknesses. The valk lets you get the 102 FC frame if you absolutely need it. That's its biggest plus.
There is basically no difference between the two, just to let you know. I've played both. A lot. Both have small strengths and weaknesses. The valk lets you get the 102 FC frame if you absolutely need it. That's its biggest plus.
can u tell me what's difference between ghost sin and wwsin? cuz i believe they almost use the same skills and gears.
'22'Souljah
25-06-2005, 23:52
can u tell me what's difference between ghost sin and wwsin? cuz i believe they almost use the same skills and gears.
ghosts have maxed mind blast
ghosts pakc atleast 65% fcr
ghosts lay traps much quikcer
then the last point is what seperates ghosts from the plain regular old bramble sins THEY TELEPORT!
that's my defintion of a ghost
Speederländer
26-06-2005, 00:38
ghosts have maxed mind blast
ghosts pakc atleast 65% fcr
ghosts lay traps much quikcer
then the last point is what seperates ghosts from the plain regular old bramble sins THEY TELEPORT!
that's my defintion of a ghost
Also:
They are better all around duelers. They can kill a wider variety of opponents and they take more skill to play well than a simple bramble ww-sin or kicker.
You can make a ghost with a 2/20fcr circlet (preferrably with other good mods or 2os). Most of these circlets will be worse than a .08 valk, but they will still work out pretty well for you if you can't afford a valk.
I would like to see your WW-sin Speed. I have one on non-ladder, and I use Bramble. I want to see were I have gone wrong. What charms do you use also? How do you get your AR high enough to hurt Barbs and Pally's? I'm on west. Can you send me your acct name so I can see your Sin?
as far as AR goes, maxed Claw mastery with Full angelic and Fools claw (1.5kar) with 2 Gul (40% AR) are More then enough for barbs and smiters.
When i see melee, i switch to my 26k AR gear and let them have it.
Weltkriegpally
28-06-2005, 11:58
as far as AR goes, maxed Claw mastery with Full angelic and Fools claw (1.5kar) with 2 Gul (40% AR) are More then enough for barbs and smiters.
When i see melee, i switch to my 26k AR gear and let them have it.
on east ladder? If so, I would love to have a crack at him with my zealot (nope, don't use exile, either). If non ladder useast, I will try him with my v/t.
--welt
Well I've said it a million times before but I'll say itagain. Enigma is the only way to go on a ww sin. If the fact that all top ww sins are using Enigma isn't enough, then take my word for it as I have tried both and Enigma is by far the better choice.
Well I've said it a million times before but I'll say itagain. Enigma is the only way to go on a ww sin. If the fact that all top ww sins are using Enigma isn't enough, then take my word for it as I have tried both and Enigma is by far the better choice.
when wwsin vs. wwsin, the one who use bramble will most likely to win. Ghostin uses enigma cuz is better against fast tele casters.
In melee duel enigma is not required.
Speederländer
29-06-2005, 01:15
when wwsin vs. wwsin, the one who use bramble will most likely to win. Ghostin uses enigma cuz is better against fast tele casters.
Not true. The enigma assassin is usually faster than the bramble sin by a LOT. As a result, I can kill the bramble sin, or hurt them a lot, by staying off screen, pumping MB and traps, and teleporting on top of them for a quick ww when they can't possibly see it coming. Good mobility and fast cast rate is better than the bramble sin's somewhat increased damage.
In melee duel enigma is not required.
Neither is bramble. An enigma ww sin can beat all melee but ww barbs. This doesn't really change by wearing a bramble. I can still kill them, in some cases a little faster, in some cases a little slower. But the balance is not altered by wearing bramble.
I've played both variants. I'm speaking from a LOT of duels and experience.
Not true. The enigma assassin is usually faster than the bramble sin by a LOT. As a result, I can kill the bramble sin, or hurt them a lot, by staying off screen, pumping MB and traps, and teleporting on top of them for a quick ww when they can't possibly see it coming. Good mobility and fast cast rate is better than the bramble sin's somewhat increased damage.
Neither is bramble. An enigma ww sin can beat all melee but ww barbs. This doesn't really change by wearing a bramble. I can still kill them, in some cases a little faster, in some cases a little slower. But the balance is not altered by wearing bramble.
I've played both variants. I'm speaking from a LOT of duels and experience.
well, i guess ur right. The problem is ur opponent also has shadow master out and they can mind blast u good as well. And if u tele on them and ww and accidentally hit shadowmaster...
They also have good poison resist against ur venom, and more importantly, faster fhr against mb.
Speederländer
29-06-2005, 03:51
well, i guess ur right. The problem is ur opponent also has shadow master out and they can mind blast u good as well. And if u tele on them and ww and accidentally hit shadowmaster...
They also have good poison resist against ur venom, and more importantly, faster fhr against mb.
The shadow master is a minor issue on ww sin vs. ww sin. Mind blast helps me more than the bramble sin. I have 65 FC, they have only a small fraction of that. Since good ww sins aren't using facets, all you need is max psn res. The big stacking that bramble sins have doesn't provide an advantage. My assassin has 75 psn res and, even if I didn't, I could wear something like a snakecord to deal with the issue. Also, using my build (*shameless plug*), you can have 86 fhr easily. But, you don't need it. Since the bramble sin casts so slowly, they won't be able to spam you with it like you can do to them.
Note: A REALLY good bramble sin will be a hard duel. I don't claim that that match-up is easy. But your garden variety bramble is rarely a problem, as long as you are careful and execute technique correctly.
A Bramble sin with 7 frame traps and 65 fcr would beat a Ghost for sure if the sin knew how to duel well. However, anyone that is smart enough to use 65 fcr, 7 frame traps, and knows how to duel well is also smart enough to build around Enigma. Therefore, you will never see such a build.
Speederländer
29-06-2005, 22:59
A Bramble sin with 7 frame traps and 65 fcr would beat a Ghost for sure if the sin knew how to duel well. However, anyone that is smart enough to use 65 fcr, 7 frame traps, and knows how to duel well is also smart enough to build around Enigma. Therefore, you will never see such a build.
You can only get 9 frames on trap laying.
Oh, well I meant fastest trap laying, thought it was 7.
MonsterSlayer
01-07-2005, 14:36
A Bramble sin with 7 frame traps and 65 fcr would beat a Ghost for sure if the sin knew how to duel well. However, anyone that is smart enough to use 65 fcr, 7 frame traps, and knows how to duel well is also smart enough to build around Enigma. Therefore, you will never see such a build.
Trap placing depends on IAS and not FCR
DevilsWrath
01-07-2005, 18:20
one thing i found effective when i played ww sins is to use both bramble and enigma. I kept one on and other in stash so I could have more versatility, sort of like a ww sin would switch out another chaos or fury claw to add a jade for more res against casters. I would use bramble against melee chars like barbs, pallys, druids (if there are any melee druids around anymore), etc. I would use enigma to catch casters similar to a barbs tele-ww thing they do. Plus keep in mind enigma is helpful when u need to get close to bowzons. Just keep master out as decoy and tele, minion stackin should protect u for a little while, then u can tele on her and ww through her. With bramble and proper prebuff my sin would hit around 5-6k dmg which is still sorta low, I've seen higher. Against casters I would hit a little more than half that, but it would still be enough to rip them to shreds. Hope this helps
Speederländer
01-07-2005, 19:38
Trap placing depends on IAS and not FCR
Zangeif is aware of that point. He was just listing breaks like I am also known to do.
Speederländer
01-07-2005, 19:41
one thing i found effective when i played ww sins is to use both bramble and enigma.
The utility of that depends on your equipment. If you wear a CoA or shadow dancers, then that lost strength is equivalent to a lot of lost life. If you don't wear any high strength requirement item, then your approach is a good one.
Note, though, that you can beat any melee out there, not including ww barbs, without a bramble. So, to not take advantage of the str boost on enigma is a problem in my mind. A bramble won't help you to win vs. good barbs in any event.
'22'Souljah
01-07-2005, 21:51
Note, though, that you can beat any melee out there, not including ww barbs, without a bramble. So, to not take advantage of the str boost on enigma is a problem in my mind. A bramble won't help you to win vs. good barbs in any event.
just a question here i know you always say ww sins can beat any melee out there except ww barbs
aren't the new melee grief pallies hard for sins with only enigma?
MonsterSlayer
01-07-2005, 22:20
Zangeif is aware of that point. He was just listing breaks like I am also known to do.
kk didn't read it throughfully I guess, sorry if it sounded harsh Zangeif :p
I was just wondering, how would this work on an assassin:
Using Bramble and 2 +3 shadow, +3 venom claws for venom prebuff together with so many + skills as possible. Then switch to enigma for the fight, would venom stay at high level and you wouldn't have to wear bramble and trang oul for wild poison damage, or would it just go low again after switching to enigma? To say it short, can Venom be prebuffed using Bramble and then switching into enigma? :D
Speederländer
01-07-2005, 22:39
just a question here i know you always say ww sins can beat any melee out there except ww barbs
aren't the new melee grief pallies hard for sins with only enigma?
Depends on how decked out the sin is. If your assassin has less than 3K life, odds are you have no chance. Since I'm on ladder, every single pally I duel has grief (barring pure FoH, etc.). I've developed a feel for fighting them and my claims about being able to beat them are based on personal experience. However, my experience has been that the very BEST pallys, those with top-notch equipment, near perfect charms and good skill to match, I am about 50-50 with in duels. I claim you can beat them, in a regular fashion, not simply out of luck. But, just like the best bone necs or whatever, you want to get 50-50 in your duels. When dueling the best out there, 50-50 is a very good number, IMO.
Here's a hint I'll be putting in my guide: Get knockback on your fools mod claw. I have been dueling a lot with a fools mod claw that includes KB as an auto-mod. Wow I say. Combined with angelics I'm sporting just under 20K AR and I knock those pallys around like no one's business. This prevents them from rushing in, taking a ww hit and causing even MORE damage to you via a smite attack. KB is nice and, IMO, critical to winning with regularity. If your claw doesn't have KB as a mod, nef it. You can always unsocket if you don't like what you get.
Also, I would say I can beat perhaps 70% of the barbs out there, or better. But this is mostly because my assassin is totally tricked out and has lots of experience and tricks in dealing with barbs. But the best ww barbs should never lose to me. That's just a fact of life and law of nature. I can beat the good ones occasionally, but it's usually because the barb had a bad night or just bad luck. I have a much better shot at BvC who don't use a storm. No block means I may have a shot. But again, if they are good, it's hard for me to turn a no shield situation into much of an advantage.
Barbs can desync and kill with ease once they are skilled. Fighting that is very hard. Personally, I think barbs that win via desync lack the skills that a good ww sin has, by a lot. Because abusing a failing of the game/connection isn't quite dueling and isn't really testing real skill. But, whatever. They do it, there's nothing you can do about it. Such is life.
Yes the 50% bonus from the Bramble will stay, along with the skills bonus from the claws. I do this sometimes but it can be a pain.
However, if you prebuff with Bramble, and wear it as well it gives you 125% bonus (50% applied twice, and on top of itself the second time). This is assuming a 50% Bramble of course.
Trangs is still worth it for the fcr (and the added 20% on top of the prebuff 20%)
MonsterSlayer
02-07-2005, 12:01
ahh, like the mastery applies twice with melee attack thing? So all kind of add % of damage from equipment acts like a mastery? :)
I was just wondering, since I've been told that block works in ww mod, a BvC barb vs a ww Assa would be 60% block, range 2, or 1? Versus 0% block and range 3. If the assa boost her ww speed high enough the barb would probably not even get more chances to hit, though it'd be something like 1 chance to hit every ww for each char. Still the assa should then have the advantage with 60% block? Or is it because the BvC barb has so much more life thatn it'll win?
BvCs are definately easier to beat than shield barbs, but the advantage still lies with the barb assuming both of you have top notch gear. You have 60% more block, but he has 60% more life.
Add in the fact that he has more damage, AR, and defense and your venom doesn't make up for that.
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