HCL Hammerdin... REVISITED!!!!

[baron_grim112]

sorry for the title, i was bored, but here we go. I posted a build for a hcl hammerdin not too long ago and i have updated it and i would like a final bit of input please. Here it is:

HAMMERDIN

MERCENARY
ACT 2 Nightmare Defensive (holy freeze)

STATS
Str-100 (a lot, but just to make him versatile for late game equip changes)
Dex-120 (max block)
Vit-the rest
Nrg-15

SKILLS
20 Blessed Hammer
20 Concentration
20 Blessed Aim
20 Vigor
20 Holy Shield
*1 Redemption
*1 Salvation
*1 Meditation (help until redemption)
*1 Defiance
*1 Holy Bolt
*1 Might
*1 Prayer
*1 Cleansing
*1 Smite
*1 Charge

ITEMS
Harlequin Crest (Um)
Mara's Kaleidoscope
Guardian Angel (Um)
"Heart of the Oak" Flail
Herald of Zakarum (Um)
Trang-Oul's Claws
Rare ring: Resist Fire and Lightning (23%)
Arachnid Mesh
Raven Frost
Sandstorm Trek

With this guy i will have +11 all skills, 90% res all in hell, 80% fcr, max block and a nice little bonus of a dr of 10%. Any input would be greatly appreciated because this is my final version of this build... time to actually start playing with him!

-Elliot

[Valar-Wrath]

Looks pretty much perfect except, isn't GA a little high in str requirement? I'd probably take a viper over it and switch out treks with Waterwalks. That way you can lower your base strength and also get more life out of it. Everything else looks good. :thumbsup:

[Tai.]

118 str iirc for guardian angel, 20 from hoz, 2 from shako, and some from sandstorm (13? i dont know never used em, lol)

thatd require 83 base str, not too bad in my opinion so unless he's gonna upgrade his hoz or ga, any additional strength would be waste of points in my opinion, cuz he could easily use viper until lvl where he could equip it all from items.

looks good to me except for the strength total, still a little iffy about meditation, but if you wanna do it, go for it.

cheers
-tai

[PhatTrumpet]

Yeah, same stuff. Play the str and dex by ear, over-planning can get you in trouble.

Still with the Meditation... persistent little bugger, aren't you.

[Valar-Wrath]

118 str iirc for guardian angel, 20 from hoz, 2 from shako, and some from sandstorm (13? i dont know never used em, lol

Ok, but if he didn't use GA, he wouldn't have to use Treks in the first place for the strength. He could use WW's for the uberhax mods. Less base strength + WW's =omgwtfpwnt hit points. :p

I also agree, no need for Meditation, but when you get that high up I guess it doesn't really matter. Whatever floats your boat.

[drinkturps]

I'm making one at the moment following the demise of my first solo Guardian.
I dont have the gear you have although I'm using a Spirit sword and Shield with a +2 combat skills ammy and griswolds armour. It's still complete and utter overkill even with several other players in the game.

After maxing BH, I've been distributing my points evenly into Conc, Vigor and Holy Shield. With a defiance merc he's pretty much unstoppable.

Some people dislike them but I'm having rather a lot of fun.

Edit: ooooh, it's my two hundedth post!

*hugs self*

[Bullet-Tooth Tony]

Get a +Meditation scepter (it's easy - just shop) and put it on weapon switch. On lvl 30 - a +Redemtion scepter. There's nothing very useful for a Hammerdin to put on switch anyway - but scepters will mean saved 2 skillpoints. Nothing useful on switch - if you don't have a Call to Arms.

[Valar-Wrath]

It's still complete and utter overkill even with several other players in the game.

A hammerdin in general is complete and utter overkill.

[drinkturps]

A hammerdin in general is complete and utter overkill.

and with +11 to skills it is beyond "complete and utter overkill" it's more overkill than an overkill giving away free overkills at an overkill convention.

*faints*

[Tai.]

the strength point raised earlier is true, if he decided not to use guardian angel, he could go with less str from items, with hoz having 20 and i believe being the heaviest item he would wear, be could str bug that on and have life somewhere in the technical range of an assload.

we've already covered that you can either go for the 75% fcr with safety, which he apparently feels safer with ga, or you can go for 125% and have more speed, if he stayed with hoto and changed to viper for example, hed have 70%, then trangs, arach and a fcr ring would still bring him to 120 if im remembering totals correctly, i think that using both rings belt gloves weapon and armor to hit 125 is ridiulous, he could stay at 75% with just viper/hoto/arach and use bfists, or could swap trangs in and arach out, its all a matter of taste.

i've always used tgods on my pallys with ga, so i never had a str issue, id get 20 from hoz, 20 from tgods and 2 from shako, meaning i needed 76 base str, which wasnt too bad at all.

he's got a build that he feels safe with that will require 7 more (once again iirc on treks) in order to use hoto and arach instead of wiz and tgods, so hes sacrificing a little bit of life [(65 life+15 dex(30life)+7str(14life)] for killing power. he's chosen the 4 skills over the 109 life.

in my version i had the extra 109, plus another 40 stat points from tgods, i gained 189 life from the deal, lost some dmg, but i was happy with it.

as we've said, the only problems we have are meditation and the fact that it looks like your overdoing your strength. besides that, nice solid build, im sure youll have a blast

cheers
-tai

[kooshball]

personally, i found using enigma with teleport is great. on SCL i have a base str hammerdin that uses a breast plate (30 str req) enima. with skills similar to yours, and max dex, i have ~2k life. if you can afford engima i would highly recommend it.

[Full_Circle]

No need for meditation... just stick Insight on your merc until your mana is set. By the time you're level 80+, you'd never use meditation... except maybe if you ended up in a party with no Insight and multiple hammerdins.

I used a Dwarf Star over Ravenfrost on my Hammerdin, but I was primarily using him for High Council running. Depending on what you plan to kill, you may want to consider a Dwarf. I never really missed CBF on a hammerdin.

[Tai.]

ya, no need for cbf on hammerdin, as it doesnt affect cast rate i believe, and if you need to run, vigor/charge will still get ya out fast, i also used dwarf for the life/fire absorb, made cs, council, and ancients a breeze, and since i had a tendency to take forever to find my way thru worldstone (was too lazy to ever memorize the pattern :)) i'd do all leveling in cs, if you're a good solid tank, you can level people FAST there, even leechers and it's also a high tc area, found 3 tal's armors in a week there off random bosses when id toss on my skullders for mfing.

the main objection i have with meditation is that, yes its only one wasted point, but you could either shop a med scepter if you're questing through, just level from 24 to 30 in the background, 24 is usually ancs if your being paed, then 25 to 30 ur leeching baals anyway, or just toss insight on your merc, hell i left insight on my merc for ages, always good when surrounded by frozen yeti dudes in a5 who explode when they die and leave no corpse.

your build has all 110 skill points planed which means that at level 80, youll only have 1 point in whatever skill you max last, not necessarily a big deal, but if you cut a few points from your build, you could end up with 5 base points in that skill at the same level, and a few extra points in defiance or holy shield late in the game will be much more useful to you than points in meditation.

And just because I haven't said it yet in this thread, ALL HAIL CLEANSING...

cheers
-tai

[Valar-Wrath]

I never really missed CBF on a hammerdin.

I highly doubt he's using Raven for the CBF. 20 dex, anyone?

[Tai.]

meh, its a matter of taste. 20 dex yields 40 life, so its cold absorb and cbf vs fire absorb when it comes to dwarf vs raven, personally id rather have fire absorb, but thats only my opinion cuz thats all i can offer.

also, if we're on the subject of saved points, lets compare waters and sandstorm, at its best sandstorm saves you 30 stats vs 15 from waters, so thats a total of 30 additional life to compare to the 50-65 on waters, sandstorm does have psn res and fhr vs max fire res on waters, so imo dwarf and waters works out just fine, allowing 95 max fire res in hell with the ga hes already using, absorb and more life than sandstorm and raven would yield

cheers
-tai

[Valar-Wrath]

Oh yea, just remembered how you could get 95 resists EASILY in Hell. GA+Irathas for the win! :lol:

[PhatTrumpet]

Your numbers are off. Paladins get 3 life per stat point.

I'm convinced people don't understand how absorb works, because everyone seems to overestimate the absorb on Dwarfstar and Ravenfrost. Absorb gets calculated after resists, and nobody in their right mind goes around in most areas with less than 75 resist all in Hardcore. So after reducing the damage by 75%, absorbing 15-20% of what's left is hardly impressive. The key to maximizing the benefits of your gear is stacking straight points of absorb and MDR on top of high resists, not percent absorb, unless of course you can get close to 50% absorb, in which case high resists are almost pointless.

Sure, dual ravenfrosts can be effective against cold damage, because after resists you're effectively reducing the damage taken by another 80%. But the effect of a single Dwarf or Raven after maxed resists have taken effect pales in comparison to the upwards of 15 MDR granted by Dwarfstar. Khell was the first I know of to try and make this popular when he made that Bowazon with dual 15 Dwarfstars.

[Valar-Wrath]

Your numbers are off. Paladins get 3 life per stat point.

I'm convinced people don't understand how absorb works, because everyone seems to overestimate the absorb on Dwarfstar and Ravenfrost. Absorb gets calculated after resists, and nobody in their right mind goes around in most areas with less than 75 resist all in Hardcore. So after reducing the damage by 75%, absorbing 15-20% of what's left is hardly impressive. The key to maximizing the benefits of your gear is stacking straight points of absorb and MDR on top of high resists, not percent absorb, unless of course you can get close to 50% absorb, in which case high resists are almost pointless.

Sure, dual ravenfrosts can be effective against cold damage, because after resists you're effectively reducing the damage taken by another 80%. But the effect of a single Dwarf or Raven after maxed resists have taken effect pales in comparison to the upwards of 15 MDR granted by Dwarfstar. Khell was the first I know of to try and make this popular when he made that Bowazon with dual 15 Dwarfstars.

But is it really needed? I'd take Raven over Dwarf firstly because of the Dex and extra points it lets me spend in Vitality. And secondly, with 75% resist all in hell, it's not really needed, IMO. If you go with the extra 'however much life you'd get' with Raven, that protects you against melee AND magic attacks. The MDR from Dwarf only protects you from magic obviously. Yes, the MDR probably protects you more from magic than the life protects you from melee and magic but I think I'd like more protection in two areas rather than just one.

IMO, the MDR is not needed, unless he's planning one of those characters that can stand the longest in extreme lag(Had a thread about that a while back). I'd take the Raven.

[Tai.]

alright, so reevaluating my numbers (ty for saying something btw, i hate to be basing my decisions on false concepts) we have the extra 15 stat points max from treks yielding 45 life, coupled with psn res and fhr vs 50-65 life and fire max res.

that means a 20 dex raven would yield 60 life and the cold res/absorb vs 40 from all dwarves with fire absorb and mdr.

im partial to dwarf, as my old sorc used the max res/absorb/mdr path with gerkes, dwarf, tri absorb, tgods etc.

i stick by the points i made earlier, though ill admit, the new calculations aren't quite as solid as my invalid numbers (isnt that always the case though), i just fear fire more than cold nowadays.

cheers
-tai

[Valar-Wrath]

i just fear fire more than cold nowadays.

True, but I still don't see why that is even taken into consideration after what PT said. The absorb isn't helping very much anyway. Broken down, I think Raven vs. Dwarf is basically Life vs. MDR.

[Bullet-Tooth Tony]

Sure, dual ravenfrosts can be effective against cold damage, because after resists you're effectively reducing the damage taken by another 80%.
Yes, but why do you worry about cold damage at all? If you're not PvP (not going to fight a Blizz sorc), then cold is hardly a danger for you. Currently I've got about 40% cold res and Ravenfrost and feel fine with it. Cold damage have never given me any serius problems. I'm going to max the resist eventualy, and I'm sure I'm going to forget about cold entirely.

[Valar-Wrath]

Yes, but why do you worry about cold damage at all? If you're not PvP (not going to fight a Blizz sorc), then cold is hardly a danger for you. Currently I've got about 40% cold res and Ravenfrost and feel fine with it. Cold damage have never given me any serius problems. I'm going to max the resist eventualy, and I'm sure I'm going to forget about cold entirely.

Uhm, you left out the rest of the post. ;)

But the effect of a single Dwarf or Raven after maxed resists have taken effect pales in comparison to the upwards of 15 MDR granted by Dwarfstar.

So he's saying that the resists on the Raven AND the Dwarf are pretty much pointless and it's the MDR on Dwarf that matters. He's not saying you should be wearing dual ravens. :D

(If I'm wrong, let me know PT, but that's what I thought you meant.)

[Full_Circle]

True, but I still don't see why that is even taken into consideration after what PT said. The absorb isn't helping very much anyway. Broken down, I think Raven vs. Dwarf is basically Life vs. MDR.

This is how I would rate them:

Raven: More stats (20 dex > 40 life), CBF, some mana (not really important)

Dwarf: MDR, Somewhat effective absorb (as stated, cold absorb is meaningless, but fire can hurt), 100% Gold

+100% Gold for the WIN! Go Dwarf Star!

But then, like I said... I was council running, where huge piles of gold add up pretty quick.

[PhatTrumpet]

I was more just trying to explain the effects of each rather than endorse one or the other. It just bugs me when people drool over the %absorb mods, sorta like it bugged me when people would insist that eth Titan's plowed 8-player Hell Cows faster than regular ones.

It really depends on the rest of your gear, where you intend to lvl/mf, how good your connection is, etc. If you're more afraid of being 1- or 2-hit KO'ed, you might be better off going with the option that gets you more life. If, however, you occasionally get big lag spikes or constantly have a less than optimal ping, you might want to have enough resists and MDR (plus blocking, of course) to be able to stand in the thick of things and not take any damage at all. I fall more in the second category because I get frequent lag spikes and mostly run Hell Baal with my Sorc (relatively low life). If she lags and gets hit by something big, she'll either block it or not, nothing I can do about that. But if she lags and gets pecked away at by pee-shooters and Burning Souls and Skelly Mages, as long as it's not poison, she can stand there all day.

%absorb is most effective against high damage, single blows. Cold and lightning damage don't really come in high damage, single blows (even a Gloam bolt supposedly hits you multiple times if you stand still). Fire and Physical damage do. This is another reason why I think Ravenfrost's cold absorb tends to be overrated.

Anyway, I gotta make some calls before my lunch break ends...