View Full Version : No Enigma PvP environment.
Phyrexial
16-06-2005, 07:48
Just curious, what do you people think PvP would be like if there was no Enigma anymore? Obviously certain builds no longer would be viable, but what do you think would dominate? I'm thinking zons and sorcs, much like 1.09.
Anyway, thoughts on this "what if?" scenario?
'22'Souljah
16-06-2005, 07:56
sins would stand a chance vs sorcs and zons because of dflight?
same with pallies except with charge?
rest in piss wind druids?
fugitive alien2
16-06-2005, 08:59
Anyway, thoughts on this "what if?" scenario?
you mean "what if" as in clan honor which was active for over a year in 1.10 with no tele?
desynch hammerdins ruled all, only really vulnerable to bone necs that walled themselves in.
necs were good, but not as feared as with tele, ultra-vulnerable to barbs among other fast or long-ranged chars.
bliz sorcs dominated a lot of the time because absorb was capped and few stacked much cr, but were negatable with enough stack.
wind druids still did ok without tele, middle of the pack or so.
poison attackers were more effective against non-tele targets and were played a lot more - rabies druids, PN nec, PJ zon.
Phyrexial
16-06-2005, 10:52
you mean "what if" as in clan honor which was active for over a year in 1.10 with no tele?
Well, it wouldn't be entirely without tele. I just said no Enigma, which means sorcs could still tele.
fugitive alien2
16-06-2005, 15:53
sorcs are negatable
hm.. well the first things that come up in my mind is that you won't see windys, bone necros, and hammerdins pwning in every duel.
ww barb is still the best :clap: In .09 they are too good, only zon can compare to them. With no enigma, is even easier. Fast running. wwsin and hammerdin would own as well, or v/t.
Sorcs just cant beat anyone whenever ppl stack resist + apporpiate absorb.
aznbboi16
17-06-2005, 02:33
hm.. well the first things that come up in my mind is that you won't see windys, bone necros, and hammerdins pwning in every duel.
Desync hammerdins would still be doing well without Enigma.
PlasmaDragon
17-06-2005, 03:03
you mean "what if" as in clan honor which was active for over a year in 1.10 with no tele?
desynch hammerdins ruled all, only really vulnerable to bone necs that walled themselves in.
necs were good, but not as feared as with tele, ultra-vulnerable to barbs among other fast or long-ranged chars.
bliz sorcs dominated a lot of the time because absorb was capped and few stacked much cr, but were negatable with enough stack.
wind druids still did ok without tele, middle of the pack or so.
poison attackers were more effective against non-tele targets and were played a lot more - rabies druids, PN nec, PJ zon.
hammerdins didn't own zons unless they had a charge weapon on switch. Also i did pretty well against you with my 30 frw fber and blizzer.
Speederländer
17-06-2005, 05:13
You can't point to Clan Honor as an example of how things would go in any event. They tried to artificially maintain 1.09 dueling into 1.10. Banning things like enigma teleport was one of the reasons they dwindled. They put into place all kinds of balance rules with an eye to leveling the playing field. That's different than just taking away teleport.
Well played and well-built desync pallys with charge would dominate. Especially once the new runewords make their way off-ladder. The best ladder pallys don't teleport at all. Charge is practically as fast, has the bonus of desyncing if handled right, is uninterruptible, and packs a big punch at the end. Throw in exile smite, hammers, FoH, etc. etc. and its a prescription to dominate.
Duelskull2
18-06-2005, 01:51
I can see desynch hammers and good v/ts doing very very well.
Speederländer
18-06-2005, 05:52
I can see desynch hammers and good v/ts doing very very well.
Yeah, charge is practically as good as tele anyway. Better in several ways, actually. Desync potential is just the icing on the cake.
fugitive alien2
20-06-2005, 09:32
hammerdins didn't own zons unless they had a charge weapon on switch. Also i did pretty well against you with my 30 frw fber and blizzer.
lol guess who
yes you need charge switch for zons, but that's easy to do.
we had some good duels when i didn't stack 450 CR. when i did it was pointless ^^
fugitive alien2
20-06-2005, 09:44
You can't point to Clan Honor as an example of how things would go in any event. They tried to artificially maintain 1.09 dueling into 1.10. Banning things like enigma teleport was one of the reasons they dwindled. They put into place all kinds of balance rules with an eye to leveling the playing field. That's different than just taking away teleport.
bunch of bs there. CH was a very good indication of how things would go without enigma.
CH didn't try to artificially maintain 09 dueling, just tried to balance 1.10 a little.
CH was strong for over a year, right up until the day WoW came out. WoW (and then to lesser extent GW beta) was main reason for CH demise as most key members moved on to those games.
there were not "all kinds" of balance rules, at least initially. no tele was the only really restrictive rule (that and no dupes). hammerdins and necros started getting more nerfs later on after it was obvious they were dominating.
bunch of bs there. CH was a very good indication of how things would go without enigma.
CH didn't try to artificially maintain 09 dueling, just tried to balance 1.10 a little.
CH was strong for over a year, right up until the day WoW came out. WoW (and then to lesser extent GW beta) was main reason for CH demise as most key members moved on to those games.
there were not "all kinds" of balance rules, at least initially. no tele was the only really restrictive rule (that and no dupes). hammerdins and necros started getting more nerfs later on after it was obvious they were dominating.
yes, but enigma not just provide tele. The +str & frw mod on it also make ppl more powerful. Without out enigma, all casters will have to put str to meet the gear's requirement, which means they will have lower life, around only 600-800ish.
The balance of ch rule make casters very underpowered, thats why most of char u see in ch is barb or pally, while necro, sorc, and wind druid are less common to be appear in ch. i only know that there are 5 necros and 3 sorcerers in ch.
Enigma is the main reason why all caster builds will pop out, after the sygnergy system. so without being tele and removal of enigma runeword are two total different things.
Dennis_KoreanGuy
20-06-2005, 16:27
[QUOTE=Bigrob]ww barb is still the best :clap: In .09 they are too good, only zon can compare to them. With no enigma, is even easier. Fast running. wwsin and hammerdin would own as well, or v/t.[QUOTE]
Nova + TS sorc Ruled ALL. :thumbsup:
Without Enigma, I suppose everyone would be wearing CoH.
- Dennis
fugitive alien2
20-06-2005, 17:39
Enigma is the main reason why all caster builds will pop out, after the sygnergy system. so without being tele and removal of enigma runeword are two total different things.
no they're not. other benefits of enigma besides tele are comparatively minor and easily compensated for elsewhere, including str/life benefit. in fact if enigma didn't have tele COH would be a better armor for many builds, and many casters in CH used COH.
over the course of CH's run there were a ton more than 5 members that played necro. they did thin out when other nerfs started happening, but that had nothing to do with enigma/lack of tele. if you don't think necros were feared in CH non-tele environment you don't know what you're talking about.
Omikron8
20-06-2005, 17:44
Just curious, what do you people think PvP would be like if there was no Enigma anymore? Obviously certain builds no longer would be viable, but what do you think would dominate? I'm thinking zons and sorcs, much like 1.09.
Anyway, thoughts on this "what if?" scenario?
*Points to Clan Honor*
unfortunately they quit on d2 :(
no they're not. other benefits of enigma besides tele are comparatively minor and easily compensated for elsewhere, including str/life benefit. in fact if enigma didn't have tele COH would be a better armor for many builds, and many casters in CH used COH.
over the course of CH's run there were a ton more than 5 members that played necro. they did thin out when other nerfs started happening, but that had nothing to do with enigma/lack of tele. if you don't think necros were feared in CH non-tele environment you don't know what you're talking about.
Nope, most casters in ch still use enigma over coh cuz they want to use stormshield. I never say necros are underpowered in ch, they just got nerfed really bad. Without using bone prison decrep, amp, no dr more than 18%, no marrowwalk bug, and no more than 75% frw is kinda a pain on the butt.
If u dont believe me then u can go read the rule, and ask some of them. i believe they fix some, but nobody in ch really play d2 anymore cuz they all move to GW.
fugitive alien2
22-06-2005, 08:53
Nope, most casters in ch still use enigma over coh cuz they want to use stormshield. I never say necros are underpowered in ch, they just got nerfed really bad. Without using bone prison decrep, amp, no dr more than 18%, no marrowwalk bug, and no more than 75% frw is kinda a pain on the butt.
If u dont believe me then u can go read the rule, and ask some of them. i believe they fix some, but nobody in ch really play d2 anymore cuz they all move to GW.
most used enigma but many used COH. i was there.
you did say there were only 5 necros in CH (not true), and implied it had something to do with them being more weakened by no tele than other classes. without tele necros are in general much stronger vs other classes - that's why the nerfs ended up being introduced.
actually more CHrs moved to WoW than GW, although garbad is trying to reform CH on GW now.
most used enigma but many used COH. i was there.
you did say there were only 5 necros in CH (not true), and implied it had something to do with them being more weakened by no tele than other classes. without tele necros are in general much stronger vs other classes - that's why the nerfs ended up being introduced.
actually more CHrs moved to WoW than GW, although garbad is trying to reform CH on GW now.
well, i guess im the we are the only one left...
I know necro are still quite good in ch, but not sorc... (i believe only zharous and the other guy has one)
I try to move to GW cuz i got no money on WoW.
skilledlord
22-06-2005, 11:16
No enigma? well helloooooo sorces and bowazons!!!
Volvagia
23-06-2005, 04:49
No enigma, eh?
Sounds...boring.
No, I'm not a bleeding heart bone necro, or wind druid, my main pvp char has been the ww barb since the 09 days. But I have to say, I enjoy bvc duels the most. No, I'm not a tele whirler, made an enigma once, tried tele whirling, hated it, got rid of the enigma that same day. I love chasing casters down, dodging fireballs, tornadoes, spirits, etc and scooting in with a whirl.
The only character I believe that enigma overpoweres is FoH pally. An attack that cant miss, can be cast from all the way across the screen, THEN tele to safety and repeat, never taking a hit. But other than that, I enjoy dueling against enigma wielding characters with a ww barb.
aznbboi16
23-06-2005, 05:13
well, i guess im the we are the only one left...
I know necro are still quite good in ch, but not sorc... (i believe only zharous and the other guy has one)
I try to move to GW cuz i got no money on WoW.
Zhar, Freeheel/Deamonmonkey, Frisky, dullshinyman and oscarmk all had sorceresses when I joined CH, which was not long before it died out. So I'm sure there were more.
It wasn't really about individual characters either. Sorceresses/casters/bowzons probably didn't do so well because they were hunted down first. But in a good team with a good defense and a conviction pally, they would do quite a bit of damage before they died.
Casters were generally picked first too.
fugitive alien2
23-06-2005, 07:07
The only character I believe that enigma overpoweres is FoH pally. An attack that cant miss, can be cast from all the way across the screen, THEN tele to safety and repeat, never taking a hit. But other than that, I enjoy dueling against enigma wielding characters with a ww barb.
foh pallys don't need enigma to do that. they can desynch charge, foh, and retreat before you see them.
good thing foh is negatable.
Zhar, Freeheel/Deamonmonkey, Frisky, dullshinyman and oscarmk all had sorceresses when I joined CH, which was not long before it died out. So I'm sure there were more.
It wasn't really about individual characters either. Sorceresses/casters/bowzons probably didn't do so well because they were hunted down first. But in a good team with a good defense and a conviction pally, they would do quite a bit of damage before they died.
Casters were generally picked first too.
i only know ragey has a good bowazon...but as u know, they're all gone.
jakoeloema
23-06-2005, 19:35
No enigma, eh?
Sounds...boring.
No, I'm not a bleeding heart bone necro, or wind druid, my main pvp char has been the ww barb since the 09 days. But I have to say, I enjoy bvc duels the most. No, I'm not a tele whirler, made an enigma once, tried tele whirling, hated it, got rid of the enigma that same day. I love chasing casters down, dodging fireballs, tornadoes, spirits, etc and scooting in with a whirl.
The only character I believe that enigma overpoweres is FoH pally. An attack that cant miss, can be cast from all the way across the screen, THEN tele to safety and repeat, never taking a hit. But other than that, I enjoy dueling against enigma wielding characters with a ww barb.
Dont use enigma on ww barb in these days?? teleport ww require also much skill to master maybe more then run and dodge style and i wont hear u talk brave when couple sorc take u out with fast teleport or teleport hammerdin cuse pub duels is al about winning nothing else matters
aznbboi16
23-06-2005, 20:15
i only know ragey has a good bowazon...but as u know, they're all gone.
Since when was this about bowazons? You said there were 2 sorcs, but there were at least 5.
There was also more than one bowazon. Rage had a pretty good one, dullshinyman had one (which he left to me when he quit), kamahl had one for a bit and there were a couple others that I had seen.
Since when was this about bowazons? You said there were 2 sorcs, but there were at least 5.
There was also more than one bowazon. Rage had a pretty good one, dullshinyman had one (which he left to me when he quit), kamahl had one for a bit and there were a couple others that I had seen.
well mostly u see builds in ch are barbs, pallys, and zons.
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