Zerk barb vs WW barb

[Paulsummoner]

Hi I was thinking what if we give zerker a huge weapon with huge damage and range 5, he will be hitting WW barb not even being touched, but it is too simply, anyway is it possible to make it like that?
By the way I wanted to ask what is the best weapon for zerker, and how much hits will it take zerker to kill good WW barb?

[Bigrob]

zerk barb will die to ww barb in 5 seconds. no block, 0 def, interruptable, max at 9 frame = gg for u.

[Paulsummoner]

zerk barb will die to ww barb in 5 seconds. no block, 0 def, interruptable, max at 9 frame = gg for u.

Yeah but what if he has range of 5 while WW barb has range 2-3, what about that, zerk will simply attack from afar.

[IIDX]

zerk barb will die before you get a hit against a whirler...make a game :thumbsup:

[Bigrob]

Yeah but what if he has range of 5 while WW barb has range 2-3, what about that, zerk will simply attack from afar.

Unless u can crush ww barb in one hit, (which is impossible) or esle u will die before him despite u have range advantage. If u dont believe me, go ahead and make a zerk barb and duel other ww barbs. see how it works.

[morotsjos]

Hi I was thinking what if we give zerker a huge weapon with huge damage and range 5, he will be hitting WW barb not even being touched, but it is too simply, anyway is it possible to make it like that?
By the way I wanted to ask what is the best weapon for zerker, and how much hits will it take zerker to kill good WW barb?
The wwbarb will just telestomp you. Cant be easier.

[Paulsummoner]

The wwbarb will just telestomp you. Cant be easier.

But Why? If I will kill him in two strikes, by the way is it possible to kill WW barb in two hits for ZErk barb?

[arbing]

But Why? If I will kill him in two strikes, by the way is it possible to kill WW barb in two hits for ZErk barb?

trust me you wont be able to land even a single hit on a good (...not REALLY REALLY good) on a tele ww barb.....

[skilledlord]

No competition for the ww barb. block is very important and the other one gonna be lacking some dr.

[morotsjos]

But Why? If I will kill him in two strikes, by the way is it possible to kill WW barb in two hits for ZErk barb?
Yes, it might be possible if you get VERY lucky rolls (i.e. deadly/critical max damage hits). The odds is not exactly high though...

However, you wont land one hit on a wwbarb. He will just tele on top and trianglewhirl. He will hit twice (or 3 times if he dualwields) before you can hit once. Needless to say, those hits WILL put you in hitrecovery and interrupt your berserk. Hence you wont even be able to complete one single berserk-animation. Impossible duel.

[Damric]

You really gotta be smart to play a PvP berserker. My elite berserker has huge deadly strike % but still takes 2-3 hits to kill an above average ww barb. Would I consider using a range 5 weapon? NO. Always use max blocking.

[Darknicrofia]

even simplier, leap +tele ww=gg zerker

[Davie.]

Zerkers are for hardcore pk. And I dont think even there do they duel ww barbs.

[Herald of Doom]

Zerkers are for hardcore pk. And I dont think even there do they duel ww barbs.
They do. Ofcourse, 99% of them use chicken or maphack for the quick exit function... Oh the fun that HC pubbie duels are -.-

HoD

[ADSL]

Zerkers are for hardcore pk. And I dont think even there do they duel ww barbs.

There is hardly any pvp ww barbs. because their dmg is just too weak to get ears.
its just a matter of time/rejuvs before the ww barb makes a mistake and get 2 hitted.

[MonsterSlayer]

the berserk barb won't get those 2 swings in due to DoD... beside with about 4 attacks hitting every time or so... with a 5k damage WW you'll beat that barb pretty fast I'll say :)

[senji]

berzerk barbs in hc are noobs. ww will always be the best melee skill
amp + 6k ww +30kdef +6k life +merc + tele +75% block = gg for berzerk barb?

if you don't know what i mean its this
botd/grief + fortitdue berzerker barbs self proclaim elite duelers a duel of mouse clicking skills!

[ADSL]

berzerk barbs in hc are noobs. ww will always be the best melee skill
amp + 6k ww +30kdef +6k life +merc + tele +75% block = gg for berzerk barb?

Gl getting a decent dueller to stay after you amp then.
WW is great for making the other guy waste his pots. and thats it. if you kill anyone with a ww barb in hardcore duels, he sucked and shouldnt be counted as a dueller.


if you don't know what i mean its this
botd/grief + fortitdue berzerker barbs self proclaim elite duelers a duel of mouse clicking skills!
No i still dont see what you mean, because this makes no sence.

[senji]

Gl getting a decent dueller to stay after you amp then.
WW is great for making the other guy waste his pots. and thats it. if you kill anyone with a ww barb in hardcore duels, he sucked and shouldnt be counted as a dueller.


No i still dont see what you mean, because this makes no sence.


berzerk barbs are suck to begin with.. anyone can make one and be call a elite dueler

oh i saw many ww barbs beat/kill alot of other builds low level and high level
so you say anyone die to ww barb is a suck dueler? funny
maybe someday you might die to one and call your self a suck dueler hehe

[senji]

oh and i don't know why you think decent duelers won't stay after being amp
because you run or just exit everytime you get amp
call that decent? you lose everytime when you get amp so you cannot even duel or have guts to swing your sword

[Davie.]

Amp is a matter of course in hc. Or fact of life/death w/e.

[ADSL]

berzerk barbs are suck to begin with.. anyone can make one and be call a elite dueler

Why, who and what?


oh i saw many ww barbs beat/kill alot of other builds low level and high level
so you say anyone die to ww barb is a suck dueler? funny
maybe someday you might die to one and call your self a suck dueler hehe


WW barbs are great for low-mid lvl duels, but i wont agree that ww is good for killing high lvl zerkers, because it just isnt, the dmg just suck.



oh and i don't know why you think decent duelers won't stay after being amp
because you run or just exit everytime you get amp
call that decent? you lose everytime when you get amp so you cannot even duel or have guts to swing your sword

we all have a set of rules we expect the duel to be done with. so if a enchanted zerker who partied up with 3 paladins wants to duel you, you will just do it? no you wont, because thats not in the rules of your duel.

because you think amp is fair game, everyone else has to also? is all duels really done with amp on west?, i am guessing you are from west. amp charges is just a waste of time on europe. all it will get you is the rest of the duel game laughing at you

[MonsterSlayer]

after what I know, amp charges doesn't exist

[ToThePoint]

after what I know, amp charges doesn't exist
gavel of pain has some

[arbing]

WW barbs are great for low-mid lvl duels, but i wont agree that ww is good for killing high lvl zerkers, because it just isnt, the dmg just suck.



wow i guess you are totally new in pvp.... damage isnt really anything if you cannot hit the person. Plus ww damage is NOT low btw.... guess you have not really duel any decent (or half decent for that matter) ww barbs... have you? I guess not :lol:
plus the skill "ww" is just too overpower compare to zerk (or other melees)... uber attack speed... attacking while moving...all a ww barb has to do is DOD the zerker to death... since their attack is WAYYYYYYY slower, 0 def. when attacking.... too much flaws....

[ADSL]

wow i guess you are totally new in pvp.... damage isnt really anything if you cannot hit the person. Plus ww damage is NOT low btw.... guess you have not really duel any decent (or half decent for that matter) ww barbs... have you? I guess not :lol:
plus the skill "ww" is just too overpower compare to zerk (or other melees)... uber attack speed... attacking while moving...all a ww barb has to do is DOD the zerker to death... since their attack is WAYYYYYYY slower, 0 def. when attacking.... too much flaws....

Please read the posts again, i was talking about BvB in hardcore

[Herald of Doom]

wow i guess you are totally new in pvp.... damage isnt really anything if you cannot hit the person. Plus ww damage is NOT low btw.... guess you have not really duel any decent (or half decent for that matter) ww barbs... have you? I guess not :lol:
plus the skill "ww" is just too overpower compare to zerk (or other melees)... uber attack speed... attacking while moving...all a ww barb has to do is DOD the zerker to death... since their attack is WAYYYYYYY slower, 0 def. when attacking.... too much flaws....
Hehe, ADSL is teh noobeh !! ;)

Ahem, anyway, he's not lying you know. You hardly see any ww barbs in hardcore because they can't kill in 1-2 hits. If you can't kill that fast they either chicken, use maphacks quick-exit or quickly drink a Fjuve.

HoD

[senji]

@adsl
so people at europe don't think amp is fair game? what makes you think unresistable magical damage is fair game? and what makes you think berzerk have a 1000ed bonus huge ar bonus and using fortitude is fair game?

to me if anything that is legetimate in the game it is fair game people who have problems with it are usually relying on cookie builds or a whiner

so if you say people will laugh at amp users then that means you won't duel means you just lost the duel simple

and top ww > top berzerk barbs you wont' even land a single hit on the ww barb unless you get really lucky

[Damric]

Maybe we can have a barb vs barb tournament with conc barbs vs zerk barbs vs ww barbs. (On US West SC of course lol, so I can use my 92 zerker, hehe.)

[senji]

it doesn't matter to them because they have this idea of only berzerker barbs are viable in hardcore its printed on the back of their heads -_-

if its a barb tournament ww barbs ask anyone on this forum or the pvp forum

[Herald of Doom]

@adsl
so people at europe don't think amp is fair game? what makes you think unresistable magical damage is fair game? and what makes you think berzerk have a 1000ed bonus huge ar bonus and using fortitude is fair game?

to me if anything that is legetimate in the game it is fair game people who have problems with it are usually relying on cookie builds or a whiner

so if you say people will laugh at amp users then that means you won't duel means you just lost the duel simple

and top ww > top berzerk barbs you wont' even land a single hit on the ww barb unless you get really lucky
A lot of people think that using charges (especially for curses) is BM. Just try a lld game in soft, if you use any kind of charge people will go back to tow and start complaining about how it's unfair. I don't mind myself, because if they amp me i'll pull out of my wand of lifetap :p I'd have to say that for HC duelling in general zerk barbs are way better, but I've never seen a berserk vs ww barb duel on highlvls, though common sense indicates that the ww barb would win (if the other person doesn't chicken out or uses a juve, which they will)

HoD

[ADSL]

@senji

If you insist on using amp charges i could just run around abit, its not like they last forever, or i could find a shrine or 2 to overwrite the amp.
The whole point of this is, you will never KILL a decent high lvl zerker. it just wont happen, unless he get a popup or his computer decides to restart.
So even with amp your ww is useless for killing. its only good if you want to win because he runs out of potions.
And if you cant get the ear, whats the fun?, you will at some point make a mistake wwing, which will cost you your ear.

Is 100% of the high lvl BvB duels really done with ww on west?
i would really love to see that, 2 chars with 30k defence and like 12-15k AR and max block. that would have to be the biggest waste of time ever.

[senji]

berzerk is interuptable what makes you say a decent high berzerk barb will never get kill by a ww barb if ww player can make mistakes so can the other player

say you got amp then the ww barb quickly teles on top of you with his might merc and do a dod your pretty much screw right there if he can land some hits while your berzerk can be interupted by his ww

imo berzerk duelers are for beginers no skill involve only require a click and lets see who got the better setup

oh and did you know? when you use berzerk your def is 0 so the only thing you can rely on is your 75% block and whatever % of pdr you have

[Paulsummoner]

@senji

If you insist on using amp charges i could just run around abit, its not like they last forever, or i could find a shrine or 2 to overwrite the amp.
The whole point of this is, you will never KILL a decent high lvl zerker. it just wont happen, unless he get a popup or his computer decides to restart.
So even with amp your ww is useless for killing. its only good if you want to win because he runs out of potions.
And if you cant get the ear, whats the fun?, you will at some point make a mistake wwing, which will cost you your ear.

Is 100% of the high lvl BvB duels really done with ww on west?
i would really love to see that, 2 chars with 30k defence and like 12-15k AR and max block. that would have to be the biggest waste of time ever.


LOL, you should understand something, a char with swing attack will never kill WW barb, simply because WW>>>>>any melee skill, you will have 0 defence, WW barb will easily kill you, while you will really waste time trying to hit WW barb with shield and 30k defence.

[ADSL]

berzerk is interuptable what makes you say a decent high berzerk barb will never get kill by a ww barb if ww player can make mistakes so can the other player
Because its alot harder to keep making good wws than it is drinking a few pots


say you got amp then the ww barb quickly teles on top of you with his might merc and do a dod your pretty much screw right there if he can land some hits while your berzerk can be interupted by his ww

Most zerkers will have a point in ww, i always have it for killing oaks of druids, and mercs. if you teled on top of me, i would just ww. you wont hit enough to kill me, and i will most likely kill your merc.


imo berzerk duelers are for beginers no skill involve only require a click and lets see who got the better setup

i agree that BvB is more fun @ low-mid lvls where more than zerkers are viable. but the reality is no matter how much you want ww to be the "skilled players attack" its pretty much only for people who are scared of getting hit, and new comers to BvB


oh and did you know? when you use berzerk your def is 0 so the only thing you can rely on is your 75% block and whatever % of pdr you have
my defence doesnt really matter, your dmg will be so weak that you wont kill me

on another note, when was the last time you did BvB at high lvls?, or helped friends build chars for it or anything?



LOL, you should understand something, a char with swing attack will never kill WW barb, simply because WW>>>>>any melee skill, you will have 0 defence, WW barb will easily kill you, while you will really waste time trying to hit WW barb with shield and 30k defence.


Please get a clue.

[Paulsummoner]

Because its alot harder to keep making good wws than it is drinking a few pots


Most zerkers will have a point in ww, i always have it for killing oaks of druids, and mercs. if you teled on top of me, i would just ww. you wont hit enough to kill me, and i will most likely kill your merc.


i agree that BvB is more fun @ low-mid lvls where more than zerkers are viable. but the reality is no matter how much you want ww to be the "skilled players attack" its pretty much only for people who are scared of getting hit, and new comers to BvB


my defence doesnt really matter, your dmg will be so weak that you wont kill me

on another note, when was the last time you did BvB at high lvls?, or helped friends build chars for it or anything?




Please get a clue.


LOL, OK, let's see, zerk will have less AS, no DEF, his attack is interruptible, BVB zerk doesn't stand a chance versus good WW barb.

[ADSL]

LOL, OK, let's see, zerk will have less AS, no DEF, his attack is interruptible, BVB zerk doesn't stand a chance versus good WW barb.

Please learn to read/take the time to read.

[Paulsummoner]

Please learn to read/take the time to read.

Please stop convincing everyone that zerk wil kill WW barb, it is impossible, if two good barbs with good equipment play, WW barb will tear zerk apart

[Herald of Doom]

Please stop convincing everyone that zerk wil kill WW barb, it is impossible, if two good barbs with good equipment play, WW barb will tear zerk apart
people pot in hardcore. What he's saying is that a ww barb will never kill a zerk barb before the zerker uses a purple. At least, that's what I think he's saying :lol:

HoD

[Bigrob]

Please stop convincing everyone that zerk wil kill WW barb, it is impossible, if two good barbs with good equipment play, WW barb will tear zerk apart

he is talking about hc. So both players might be using crappy equipment, then zerker would win. Zerker has more ar and dmg btw.

In general though, ww > any swing attacks melee.

[Bigrob]

people pot in hardcore. What he's saying is that a ww barb will never kill a zerk barb before the zerker uses a purple. At least, that's what I think he's saying :lol:

HoD

yes, that is another good reason. Unless ur ww barb has 5k in hc.

[Goth De Luse]

i should tell u that i have made a berzerker....and that he kills WWberbs 10 lvls higher than him


how u ask?


1)just becuse a barb can use a wepon in each hand doesend mean he shuld,the power of a good sheild can never be underestamaderd

as for a wepon i use a Supereor legendary mallet with famine rune word

and i use storm shield

my belt is razor tail(attacker take damge = to ur lvl)

armour has the perfect bramble rune word(lvl 21 thorn aura)

2)beef up battle orders not only for the hp,,,but the kick butt
synergys


try it.......ull be AMAZED!!

[ADSL]

people pot in hardcore. What he's saying is that a ww barb will never kill a zerk barb before the zerker uses a purple. At least, that's what I think he's saying :lol:

HoD

thats 100% right.

But i just dont feel the need to explain myself to this summonpoul guy, its funny he made this thread about zerk vs ww in softcore because he didnt know. then he learned that zerk vs ww in softcore is GG for the zerker most of the time.
Now he thinks he can learn me that ww > zerk in hardcore also. funny




Please stop convincing everyone that zerk wil kill WW barb, it is impossible, if two good barbs with good equipment play, WW barb will tear zerk apart


at the risk of repeating myself, learn to read please.

[LORD NIKON]

I think the Berserker could be pretty viable in softcore too , even with telestomping and such . Since Shout gives damage as a synergie to Berserk , you could max this , together with Iron Skin and have pretty good defense . That is until you decide to swing , but you will have at least 1 point in Concentrate .

The basic plan is that Conc uses WAY less mana than WW , so you can shift+click Conc the WWing barb for the extra def (assuming he DoDs , if he doesn't just dodge WWs) , while remaining safe . He will eventually run out of mana , so he'll have to down a pot . Assuming SC , he'll most probably use a mana pot , which gives you a split second to gain some distance , forcing him to teleport , which is around 20 mana . Almost as costly as a WW . He'll run out of potions faster than you , and this is when your time comes . Kill .

If it's HC the WW guy will have a hard time drinking rejuves (or full ones) to restore his mana ...

I haven't tried this myself , but it looks doable and interesting , and may be the same thing ADSL is doing , but some explanation never hurt anyone . Right ? Thanks for reading :)

EDIT : If both of you aren't potting , then it's pretty obvious who will win , no ? :)

[Bigrob]

I have a zerker in sc, he has no chance to beat ww barb, 10-0 GG. The reason is that zerk drops ur def to 0 and its interruptable. U will be interupted constantly by ww and a good ww barb will crush by ww away or dod. And zerker only max out at 9 frame, 3.1 attacks per sec, while ww up to 6.

U can use mana pot instead of purple...

belt: first slot-mana, second and third slots-big purple, fourth slot-antidoe.

[LORD NIKON]

Last time I checked 3x9=27 , which is not the correct number for DII AFAIK ;)

It seems things with potting haven't changed a bit , even to the Antidote row :) Other than that , learn to read please :/

[MonsterSlayer]

I think the Berserker could be pretty viable in softcore too , even with telestomping and such . Since Shout gives damage as a synergie to Berserk , you could max this , together with Iron Skin and have pretty good defense . That is until you decide to swing , but you will have at least 1 point in Concentrate .

The basic plan is that Conc uses WAY less mana than WW , so you can shift+click Conc the WWing barb for the extra def (assuming he DoDs , if he doesn't just dodge WWs) , while remaining safe . He will eventually run out of mana , so he'll have to down a pot . Assuming SC , he'll most probably use a mana pot , which gives you a split second to gain some distance , forcing him to teleport , which is around 20 mana . Almost as costly as a WW . He'll run out of potions faster than you , and this is when your time comes . Kill .

If it's HC the WW guy will have a hard time drinking rejuves (or full ones) to restore his mana ...

I haven't tried this myself , but it looks doable and interesting , and may be the same thing ADSL is doing , but some explanation never hurt anyone . Right ? Thanks for reading :)

EDIT : If both of you aren't potting , then it's pretty obvious who will win , no ? :)

3x9 = 27 ??? What do you mean by that?

It's kind of rubbish saying that the Zerker can lock him self in a concentrate movement eventhough it can't be interrupted, since with 12 attacks per second the ww barb will hit you some times, provide open wound, and you'll die. Beside you're talking about the berzerker like he will kill the barb in one hit, and he'll hit with his first attack no mather what... ;) that's how I understood what you said :)

[morotsjos]

...............

What are you arguing about? Are some people too blind to see that ADSL is talking hardcore?

Berserk>>>>>>>>>ww in a potting enviroment, since ww NEVER will kill a berserker period.

In a non-potting enviroment on the other hand berserkers will never be able to kill any half-decent wwbarbs.

[LORD NIKON]

The 3x9=27 was about BigRob's post which stated that Berserk @ 9 fpa equaled 3.1 attacks per second ;)

What I was trying to say is wearing down the WW barb by making him run out of potions and mana before you die (using higher defence through Conc for better durability) . I don't know how you people duel nowadays , so it might seem strange to you .

And , yes , the other side of the story is covered quite thoroughly by morotsjos as in "Berserker dies" . Unless the WW player doesn't know where he is :P

[Bigrob]

The 3x9=27 was about BigRob's post which stated that Berserk @ 9 fpa equaled 3.1 attacks per second ;)

What I was trying to say is wearing down the WW barb by making him run out of potions and mana before you die (using higher defence through Conc for better durability) . I don't know how you people duel nowadays , so it might seem strange to you .

And , yes , the other side of the story is covered quite thoroughly by morotsjos as in "Berserker dies" . Unless the WW player doesn't know where he is :P

u wont know when ppl drink mana pots.

[LORD NIKON]

Now , would I ? Using skills recklessly and doing it for a hefty amount of time without stopping would be attributed to people pumping Energy , right ?

[senji]

ww> berzerk in both softcore and hardcore
people think berzerk is better because its just easier to get kills. they mostly have their str at base alot of vitality and usually max all synergies and have a bo slave. But how often you see a good ww player in hardcore? none.. because they are all berzerker newbies and can only get kills that way. a ww master can kill you so quick just imagine amp + 6k ww + deadly strikes crushing blow

you don't see much ww barbs in hardcore because people there think ww = noob all they can do is rely on berzerk and their leet gears + juv so yea... oh and they think amp is bad manner too but not their bo slave -_-

[rawrj]

what are you on about, i play on whcl, all the best barb duels are wwer's using tmaul ebotds and what not, and i remember one of them tell me that he did 13k-14k ww, + amp +death strike, os i dont know what you talking about in duels that is, but in pvm zerk is good cuase you dont have to worry about iron madien

[Paulsummoner]

thats 100% right.

But i just dont feel the need to explain myself to this summonpoul guy, its funny he made this thread about zerk vs ww in softcore because he didnt know. then he learned that zerk vs ww in softcore is GG for the zerker most of the time.
Now he thinks he can learn me that ww > zerk in hardcore also. funny




at the risk of repeating myself, learn to read please.

Ok, you didn't read the whole thread history I think, because this forum wasmade like a question, if Zerk can be a match versus WW barb, in softcore the answer was given to me, NO, he is no match for WW barb in softcore, now I didn't mean anything in hardcore, ok? I meant softcore, so, WW baba kills zerk, now please explain me what is the difference between hardcore and softcore.

[morotsjos]

a ww master can kill you so quick just imagine amp + 6k ww + deadly strikes crushing blow
Someone has not played a wwbarb...

Ok, you didn't read the whole thread history I think, because this forum wasmade like a question, if Zerk can be a match versus WW barb, in softcore the answer was given to me, NO, he is no match for WW barb in softcore, now I didn't mean anything in hardcore, ok? I meant softcore, so, WW baba kills zerk, now please explain me what is the difference between hardcore and softcore.
PEOPLE DRINK FULL REJUVVIES ALL THE TIME IN HARDCORE SO YOU CANT KILL THEM WITH WW. YOU NEED A 1-2 HIT KO-KILLER LIKE BERSERK. GET IT?

[ADSL]

Senji, even with amp your 6k ww wont kill a good zerker. And 6k with a onehanded ww, isnt that setting the bar a little high?, wouldnt 4.5k-5k be more realistic when you dont have access to 3/20/20s
The only way for a ww to get ears vs a zerker is pretty much 2handed with amp. but if someone is using that, guess what i will do?
thats right ww him a few time with my zerker, because he wont have much reduce, his AR will pretty much suck because he would have base dex.
And as soon as his amp is over, ill get right back to zerking him, and once he makes a mistake, gg 2 hitted DEAD ww.

Debating ww vs zerk in high lvl BvB in hardcore is pointless, because ww will only kill the weakest of the weak.

Again ill ask the question:
Is all BvB duels done with WW on west?, that would have to be the most pointless duels ever. 30k defence vs 10-12k AR. and 5k dmg vs 7k life+ 50% dr.

And I consider AMP a whole lot more BM than getting outside BO, if you use amp, i dont think you are in the position to whine about outside BO.
That being said, i would never use any of the 2.

Also one of the many questions/points i have made you fail to adress is,
When was the last time you did high lvl BvB? Or helped your friends with their builds?

[ADSL]

Ok, you didn't read the whole thread history I think, because this forum wasmade like a question, if Zerk can be a match versus WW barb, in softcore the answer was given to me, NO, he is no match for WW barb in softcore, now I didn't mean anything in hardcore, ok? I meant softcore, so, WW baba kills zerk, now please explain me what is the difference between hardcore and softcore.

No, you didnt read the whole thread. after you got your advice, hardcore was brought in and the debate have been about hardcore since somewhere on page 2 i think.

[Paulsummoner]

No, you didnt read the whole thread. after you got your advice, hardcore was brought in and the debate have been about hardcore since somewhere on page 2 i think.


OK, I don't know about hardcore, but in softcore WW barb tears zerk to shreds. By the way, why people drink rej pots in hardcore and who would win if people wouldn't drink any pots.

[morotsjos]

OK, I don't know about hardcore, but in softcore WW barb tears zerk to shreds. By the way, why people drink rej pots in hardcore and who would win if people wouldn't drink any pots.
Because they dont want to die?

Of course wwbarbs win if noone drinks rejuvvies, but since everyone do in hc it's irrelevant.

[senji]

Senji, even with amp your 6k ww wont kill a good zerker. And 6k with a onehanded ww, isnt that setting the bar a little high?, wouldnt 4.5k-5k be more realistic when you dont have access to 3/20/20s
The only way for a ww to get ears vs a zerker is pretty much 2handed with amp. but if someone is using that, guess what i will do?
thats right ww him a few time with my zerker, because he wont have much reduce, his AR will pretty much suck because he would have base dex.
And as soon as his amp is over, ill get right back to zerking him, and once he makes a mistake, gg 2 hitted DEAD ww.

Debating ww vs zerk in high lvl BvB in hardcore is pointless, because ww will only kill the weakest of the weak.

Again ill ask the question:
Is all BvB duels done with WW on west?, that would have to be the most pointless duels ever. 30k defence vs 10-12k AR. and 5k dmg vs 7k life+ 50% dr.

And I consider AMP a whole lot more BM than getting outside BO, if you use amp, i dont think you are in the position to whine about outside BO.
That being said, i would never use any of the 2.

Also one of the many questions/points i have made you fail to adress is,
When was the last time you did high lvl BvB? Or helped your friends with their builds?


First let me get one thing clear to you i am not a whiner or whining about anyting you were the one who say amp is bm remember? im ok with anything in the game as long as its legetimate

i rarely play diablo 2 now, from what i saw on west last time nothing has change its still the usual lame preteen/lame teenagers who thinks maphack/chicken exit/fast exit is a requisite for hardcore dueling, and they are all the berzerker barbs with the standard runewords some ww barbs show up occationally but fails horribly at wwing.

if they don't like what you use you are automatically branded a noob.

next. why do you keep think you can 1-2 hit a ww barb? don't just assume that with out even dueling a good ww barb, don't just say berzerk barb > ww barb because you just beat some random rich noob with a ww barb.

let me tell you its posisble to get 6k 1 hand on a ww barb and i bet some softcore people have such barbs plus he can get deadly strikes in and if you count in ampfly damage thats even more dmg done then you can ever do with your interuptable single swing berzerk

oh and gavel of pain have level 8 charges around 30 seconds i think? don't exactly remember

i don't know why you keep assuming berzerk > ww because every barb expert knows ww> berzerk in stand alone bvb duels

we are saying about what skill is better here not if you can get realistic charms or not since we talking about which is better so everyone assume both have the best equip possible

of course if your saying in hardcore in public noob duels i will agree with you there berzerk cookie cutter builds are better than ww noobs but in the hands of a expert ww player berzerker don't stand much of a chance ampfly + tele stomp ww

seriously i don't think you know much about ww barbs ever heard of titan barbs? those can deal very insane high damage but a bit less life than a regular ww barb

its no point if you just beat some ww barb noob in hc and claiming ww > berzerk barbs in sc/or hc

duel someone who can dod with no problem in hardcore and if you can kill him i will acknowledge berzerk>ww

[senji]

oh 1 more thing you said about 50% pdr but when you get amp where is your dr? heh heh a good ww player is alot more frightful than a berzerker you just don't know how good ww is

[Herald of Doom]

let me tell you its posisble to get 6k 1 hand on a ww barb and i bet some softcore people have such barbs plus he can get deadly strikes in and if you count in ampfly damage thats even more dmg done then you can ever do with your interuptable single swing berzerk
Highly unlikely. I get just 5K dualwielding 412% botd and a beast. A whirler with a shield would need some brilliant charms to get that dmg.


we are saying about what skill is better here not if you can get realistic charms or not since we talking about which is better so everyone assume both have the best equip possible
Yeah, in *theory* ww is always better. But in *reality* a ww barb will NEVER get an ear. Getting the ear is all that counts.

seriously i don't think you know much about ww barbs ever heard of titan barbs? those can deal very insane high damage but a bit less life than a regular ww barb
Titan barbs can get 3K life max afaik, which isn't a lot. Think about it, base vita, even with 39*3/20/20 isn't going to survive much. If you're talking about a high str/average vit build, then it isn't a titan ;)

HoD

[lCE]

Hey senji u talked the talk, now walk the walk. Build a hc wwer, and show us some of the ears u got with your "Superior" knowledge :lol: .

Or better still, crawl up the hole where u came from, and dont argue with people who know more than u do, cause it only makes u look stupider in the end.

[senji]

Hey senji u talked the talk, now walk the walk. Build a hc wwer, and show us some of the ears u got with your "Superior" knowledge :lol: .

Or better still, crawl up the hole where u came from, and dont argue with people who know more than u do, cause it only makes u look stupider in the end.


what are you talking about? d2 is a old game everything is just common knowledge its not some secret document.

why do i have to proof to you just to make you believe what is true? if you don't believe me just make 2 open chars 1 berzerk 1 ww and see for your self the first one who drops ear loses

you look even more stupid trying to insult people online which isn't even effective.

what kind of food did your parents raise you with? stupid pills? haha

@herald of doom what are you talking about can't get 6k 1 hand? use a might merc and a pride wpn 6k easy

whats the use of talking to people who keep thinking only berzerk can get ears? none

i've seen what i saw and i don't need to make people believe it, but saying ww can't get ears in hardcore is just stupid because you just don't know how

[Halciet]

Let's see if we can have discussions without resulting to name-calling, everyone.

-Hal

[Herald of Doom]

@herald of doom what are you talking about can't get 6k 1 hand? use a might merc and a pride wpn 6k easy

whats the use of talking to people who keep thinking only berzerk can get ears? none

i've seen what i saw and i don't need to make people believe it, but saying ww can't get ears in hardcore is just stupid because you just don't know how
Might merc with pride and amp. Good luck finding *anyone* at all who will duel you. I see people quitting from duels just because someone uses an above average grief. It's too late for a long reply though, goodnight :p

HoD

[ADSL]

@herald of doom what are you talking about can't get 6k 1 hand? use a might merc and a pride wpn 6k easy
Indeed if you find anyone stupid enough to start zerking away on someone who amped you and have a pride/might merc alive. then your ww can get the ear. but lets assume the zerker is not a braindead 6 years old, shall we?

Your actually ww dmg, should be 4.5k when your merc i dead.
4.5/3 assuming you get lucky and rolls 100% deadly strikes, your dmg per ww-hit: 1.5k. if we say that your opponent was amped, then 50% ekstra. 2250 max dmg per hit. then you need atleast 3-4 hits to kill.
and thats assuming you make a one of a life time roll.
Thats why using a wwer in high lvl BvB is useless and a waste of time..



whats the use of talking to people who keep thinking only berzerk can get ears? none

Whats the use of talking to people who keep thinking you can get BvB ears with WW? none


i've seen what i saw and i don't need to make people believe it, but saying ww can't get ears in hardcore is just stupid because you just don't know how
What you have seen is probaly either a few newbies who thought it would be fun trying a 12 fps zerk with botd wp or something getting killed vs a 2 handed amp WWer.
or quite posible a early season duel where ppl cant afford getting decent charms etc.

[luis19]

lemme get this straight, you all have been arguing wheither zerk and even conc can beat ww barbs?
....
....
....
for 7 pages...........................................
omg why do i bother....
but being me ill enlighten you all:

dun dun dun

...
...
...
...


WW > zerk or conc
hc, sc, l, same result
that about summaries all the strats about sidestepping ww and zerking/concing and such. same end result. yeah i am biased toward ww, but it doesnt matter since im right.

[ADSL]

lemme get this straight, you all have been arguing wheither zerk and even conc can beat ww barbs?
....
....
....
for 7 pages...........................................
omg why do i bother....
but being me ill enlighten you all:

dun dun dun

...
...
...
...


WW > zerk or conc
hc, sc, l, same result
that about summaries all the strats about sidestepping ww and zerking/concing and such. same end result. yeah i am biased toward ww, but it doesnt matter since im right.

No you are not even close to being right!
You just dont make the ear drop to the ground with WW in high lvl BvB, saying otherwise just make you look stupid.
I am willing to bet your expirience with harcore high lvl BvB is almost equal ZERO.
Since i refuse to believe you know anything from your own expirience with hardcore BvB, your points hold little value in such an arguement.
Actually i dont think it has any value whatsoever, you should have stayed out of this arguement, when you have zero expirience and is talking with zero knowlegde to back it up.

[Herald of Doom]

...
...


WW > zerk or conc
hc, sc, l, same result
that about summaries all the strats about sidestepping ww and zerking/concing and such. same end result. yeah i am biased toward ww, but it doesnt matter since im right.
But *NOT* in HC duels. See, I'm not saying berserk is better than ww, I'm saying that ww will almost never get an ear. There's a difference between being better and getting the ear, and getting the ear is all that counts. I mean, most duels will probably go something like this:

hostile
taunting for 5 minutes
ww barb goes out, followed by the zerker
they run in and out 7 more times before they finally duel
ww hits the zerker, who uses a purple
hit followed by purple
hit --> purple
hit->purple
ww barb doesnt pay attention and hits a puddle
zerker hits ww barb
ww barb uses purple
rince, repeat until someone either runs out of purples and quits, someone gets hit hard enough to trigger chicken or someone uses maphacks quit exit.

Result: waste of time and some good purples.

PS: and *IF* someone uses a might merc with pride and whatnot, they will notice and refuse to duel ^_^

HoD

[Paulsummoner]

Because they dont want to die?

Of course wwbarbs win if noone drinks rejuvvies, but since everyone do in hc it's irrelevant.


So that's why Zerk wins, rej potions, ok, ADSL, if it is a fair fight, WW barb tears Zerk to shreds in no time, if both don't drink rej potions.

[Paulsummoner]

Indeed if you find anyone stupid enough to start zerking away on someone who amped you and have a pride/might merc alive. then your ww can get the ear. but lets assume the zerker is not a braindead 6 years old, shall we?

Your actually ww dmg, should be 4.5k when your merc i dead.
4.5/3 assuming you get lucky and rolls 100% deadly strikes, your dmg per ww-hit: 1.5k. if we say that your opponent was amped, then 50% ekstra. 2250 max dmg per hit. then you need atleast 3-4 hits to kill.
and thats assuming you make a one of a life time roll.
Thats why using a wwer in high lvl BvB is useless and a waste of time..



Whats the use of talking to people who keep thinking you can get BvB ears with WW? none


What you have seen is probaly either a few newbies who thought it would be fun trying a 12 fps zerk with botd wp or something getting killed vs a 2 handed amp WWer.
or quite posible a early season duel where ppl cant afford getting decent charms etc.


ADSL, my friend you don't make sense, if zerk doesn't drink pots, he will loose, your damage calculator showed that your knowledge of BVB chars is not really good, in BVB ppl now use open wounds, so, if both chars don't drink lots of rej pots, WW is much better.

[ADSL]

ADSL, my friend you don't make sense, if zerk doesn't drink pots, he will loose, your damage calculator showed that your knowledge of BVB chars is not really good, in BVB ppl now use open wounds, so, if both chars don't drink lots of rej pots, WW is much better.

+


So that's why Zerk wins, rej potions, ok, ADSL, if it is a fair fight, WW barb tears Zerk to shreds in no time, if both don't drink rej potions.


=

dear Paulsummoner, please stay out of this if you have absolutly nothing intelligent to say.

I have not commented anything about softcore in this thread. because noone besides YOU thought a zerker could win in softcore.
Its clear that your posts make no impact on the arguement, so why on earth do you keep trying to make a point, that just shows your lack of knowlegde on the subject?

[luis19]

please, ur basing the fact that zerk can stand up to ww on juving the entire duel.
please.

and even if you wanted to base your argument in a juving enviroment, the ww barb still wouldnt die? so exactly what is your point? that the duel will end in a stalemate becuase both builds are using full belts of juvs and chicken?

[ADSL]

please, ur basing the fact that zerk can stand up to ww on juving the entire duel.
please.

Ofcourse i do, Hardcore duelling is all about getting the ear. please understand that.


and even if you wanted to base your argument in a juving enviroment, the ww barb still wouldnt die? so exactly what is your point? that the duel will end in a stalemate becuase both builds are using full belts of juvs and chicken?

Ok, so noone ever dies in hardcore BvB?, please you are just trying to argue something you have absolutly ZERO expirience in.


I love how you came in the arguement being all supirior, and yet you know jack about the subject and is just pulling stuff out of your behind.

[luis19]

how hard is it to understand that while in ww, the zerk barb will rarely be able to hit other barb due to:
1) ww outranges stationary attacks
2) ww is faster, hits more often
3) ^zerk is interruptable while ww is not
4) ^ results in zerk barb being in fhr and hit often while the ww isnt

only way i see the ww barb dying is if they are caught off guard and aa'ed from at least 2 screens away and hit while not in ww.

[ADSL]

how hard is it to understand that while in ww, the zerk barb will rarely be able to hit other barb due to:
1) ww outranges stationary attacks
2) ww is faster, hits more often
3) ^zerk is interruptable while ww is not
4) ^ results in zerk barb being in fhr and hit often while the ww isnt

only way i see the ww barb dying is if they are caught off guard and aa'ed from at least 2 screens away and hit while not in ww.

You can try making all the points you will, ww is useless for killing in hardcore high lvl BvB.
That was all this arguement was about.
Its a well known fact thats its hard killing the ww, noone is trying to say otherwise.
But at some point the wwer will make a mistake in his ww, i have yet to see anyone make perfects wws all the time..... and when that happens, the zerker will have his chance of getting the ear.
For a dueller like me the number of potions used is really not an issue, my potion finder barb gets 35-40 full rejuvs in a nm cowrun.

All this but the potion finder barb, have been said more than a few times in this thread, so i still fail to see why you needed to post in such a "i am the best, all worship me and my knowlegde" kinda way.....

[Bigrob]

i should make a hammerdin and kill all ppls in hc...

[dkay]

wont whirlwind out do zerk since when you zerk your def drops to zero? ;/

[Damric]

I enjoy moderate success in SC with my 92 zerker vs ww. It's all about patience, walking, and luck. Highest ww barb I killed was 98. I can definitely see in HC how a zerker would likely get the ear if they were both rejuving, since zerk damage is like 10x more than ww in PvP.

[MonsterSlayer]

You can try making all the points you will, ww is useless for killing in hardcore high lvl BvB.
That was all this arguement was about.
Its a well known fact thats its hard killing the ww, noone is trying to say otherwise.
But at some point the wwer will make a mistake in his ww, i have yet to see anyone make perfects wws all the time..... and when that happens, the zerker will have his chance of getting the ear.
For a dueller like me the number of potions used is really not an issue, my potion finder barb gets 35-40 full rejuvs in a nm cowrun.

All this but the potion finder barb, have been said more than a few times in this thread, so i still fail to see why you needed to post in such a "i am the best, all worship me and my knowlegde" kinda way.....

Won't you be forced to use a shield as the zerker? You won't have that much damage then I guess (compared to two handed weapon). So eventhough the ww barb makes a mistake and you get 1-2 hits in if you're not in fhr lock, you won't kill him. He'll just ww away and when his ww ends he will drink 1 pot, while you have drunken like 8 or so right? Just guessing here... well if it continues that way no one would win since the zerker will probably leave the game right? And in that way BvB on hc is pointless and there will either be no winner or the ww barb will win if the zerker doesn't chicken out. That's how I see it so far. :)

[ADSL]

Won't you be forced to use a shield as the zerker? You won't have that much damage then I guess (compared to two handed weapon). So eventhough the ww barb makes a mistake and you get 1-2 hits in if you're not in fhr lock, you won't kill him. He'll just ww away and when his ww ends he will drink 1 pot, while you have drunken like 8 or so right? Just guessing here... well if it continues that way no one would win since the zerker will probably leave the game right? And in that way BvB on hc is pointless and there will either be no winner or the ww barb will win if the zerker doesn't chicken out. That's how I see it so far. :)

One handed zerk dmg is still around 10-11k on ladder with the charms we have, which with a bit of luck is enough to 2 hit kill...
Indeed if both chars are full of perfect gear it might be a loong duel, but fact is that charms are very hard to get on hardcore...

[Damric]

One handed zerk dmg is still around 10-11k on ladder with the charms we have, which with a bit of luck is enough to 2 hit kill...
Indeed if both chars are full of perfect gear it might be a loong duel, but fact is that charms are very hard to get on hardcore...

Actually I am zerking over 20k and I don't even have the best possible items. I found all my charms, made my own grief/fort.

[ADSL]

Actually I am zerking over 20k and I don't even have the best possible items. I found all my charms, made my own grief/fort.

I would love to hear how you reached that number, have in mind that might/conc and such auras shouldnt be counted as they are not alive doing the duel.
Do share...

[Damric]

I would love to hear how you reached that number, have in mind that might/conc and such auras shouldnt be counted as they are not alive doing the duel.
Do share...

I swear no one actually reads any of the crap that I post. <<<(is that redundant?)

http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=348209

Edit: GRRR can't make my link work but here is another copy:

Just some number crunching people may find useful. I also posted this in PvP forum but I felt it belongs here in barbarian forum.

Assume your weapon damage +charms is something around 500. That's your base. (I get 476 but I suck.)

Assume 150% ed from weapon mastery. (I am 148%.)
Assume 1000% ed from fully synergiezed berserk. (Nubs like me are really around 900%.)
Assume 200 strength total. (Counts as %ed.)
Fortitude 300%ed. Phoenix 400% ed. Steelrends 50%.

Total %ed = 2100%

500 multiplied by 2200% (base counts once as 100%) = 11k.

Times 2 for deadly strike is 22k. Thats why I like highlords/goreriders/grief for high % DS.

After PvP penalty (17%) = 3740 (Ouch magic damage too.)

[ADSL]

I swear no one actually reads any of the crap that I post. <<<(is that redundant?)

http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?t=348209

Edit: GRRR can't make my link work but look at all posts by me and it's called "How to get over 20k berserk" It walks thru the math

Thats because you count the deadly strike......

[Damric]

Well if you are over 75% DS wouldn't you count it?

[Herald of Doom]

Well if you are over 75% DS wouldn't you count it?
No. You count what you actually do, and say how much DS/crit you have :) If you noticed ADSL saying 10-11k dmg, thats exactly what you're doing (and I bet he has lots of DS too).

HoD

[Damric]

Tell that to the poor lvl 96 smiter I owned 5-1 last night. That guy said, "I have 120 ists worth of gear. That barb will not beat me!" (I'm guessing he was using a hack program to see my gimpy gear that is worth less than a handful of ists). In actuality I had a hot streak of luck, but whatever.

[Bullet-Tooth Tony]

OK, everyone agrees that Berserk has much higher damage "in numbers" plus no resistance.
Lets assume WW is 5k, Zerk is 12k with no deadly strike taken into consideration. But still you have to "forget", that WW is more than 2 times faster than Berserk, which gives the same 12k of average damage per the same amount of time.
But what's the point in 12k damage if it will be much harder to actually apply this 12k to your opponent? Won't WWer escape the Berserk hit with his wirlwind attack and even do some damage, even if it's much lower? Isn't 5k that HITS better than 12k (or 22k, or whatever) that doesn't?
That's the point.

[ADSL]

OK, everyone agrees that Berserk has much higher damage "in numbers" plus no resistance.
Lets assume WW is 5k, Zerk is 12k with no deadly strike taken into consideration. But still you have to "forget", that WW is more than 2 times faster than Berserk, which gives the same 12k of average damage per the same amount of time.
But what's the point in 12k damage if it will be much harder to actually apply this 12k to your opponent? Won't WWer escape the Berserk hit with his wirlwind attack and even do some damage, even if it's much lower? Isn't 5k that HITS better than 12k (or 22k, or whatever) that doesn't?
That's the point.

The point is, that ww just dont have the killing power to make the target drops his ear before he drinks a rejuv, and zerk does have that killing power.

[MonsterSlayer]

hmm, is it true that DS works with magical melee attacks??

[Halciet]

If you mean does deadly strike work with berserk, then yes. DS doubles the damage, and then berserk converts it to magical.

People need to stop fighting, or I'm going to close the thread.

-Hal

[Neurofuzzy]

Experiment is the mother of all sciences! Stop arguing endlessly and try it out! I guess you will find out that WW wins against zerk, except if the ww barb does not move and awaits quietly for death to come (a suicidal barb?). :lol:

[Damric]

People need to stop fighting, or I'm going to close the thread.
-Hal

Aww come on. This is an educational thread. I bet there are at least a few people going to try to make a pure berserker now after reading this.

[dkay]

i would have made a zerk barb but i feel that 12 frames (is that max?) is just too low. of course the damage is ridiculous. actually i wish i would have made one with high level leap.

[riplix]

i would have made a zerk barb but i feel that 12 frames (is that max?) is just too low. of course the damage is ridiculous. actually i wish i would have made one with high level leap.

imo the strength of zerk lies in its 1-hit-kill ability. a lvl1 zerk is useful but does't have the 1-hit-capability (which makes speed a relative matter).

zerk shines with those monsters you can't kill fast with ww:
- PI's
- any monster while being IM'ed
- bosses
- champs
- fast running monsters

AND it one-hit-kills gloams and many other annoying monsters. therefore speed is not THAT super important.

over all (i have a pole zerker with max ww) ww is king most of the time. but not having a strong zerk that handles all problems a ww barb has is annoying imo.

PUT POINTS IN ZERK :D

[rikstaker]

imo the strength of zerk lies in its 1-hit-kill ability. a lvl1 zerk is useful but does't have the 1-hit-capability (which makes speed a relative matter).

zerk shines with those monsters you can't kill fast with ww:


I believe this discussion was about pvp:even so all those you mentioned baring PI's die faster to ww.

PI-unlike 1.09 not as common now in 1.10.even so a good weapon with shout synergy would manage enough magical dmg to take care of PIs.

IM-obviously you have to zerk,but IM is where.. two areas in the game? chaos & WSK.

Bosses-:A little thing called crushing blow.removes a percentage of remaining life instantly.A 4fpa attack is much much better when delivering CB than a slow & tedious ~12fpa-9fpa attack that is zerk.More attacks-more cb trigger,boss fight shortened to a fraction.Against bosses,I simply whirl & whirl while drinking pots-& then take care of the remanant life with zerk.Much faster than using zerk alone.Not to mention ww is safer & uniterruptible.

Champs/Uniques:In a unique pack,the unique spawns first,& therefore becomes the default target for ww(for e.g:suppose the unique & a minion or any other monster(s) is in range along with the unique,ww will attack the unique).So whirling through a unique pack results in more hits on the unique & the unique is killed much faster,which results in dropping of dangerous auras like fana.Much more efficiency & you cant get swarmed.

Fast running monsters:

??..give it a second thought.

How are you better of killing fast running monsters with a stand & deliver attack than you are with a mobile attack?
-------------
As for the original discussion-I havent gone through the thread,but I see mentions of pots,lots of ifs like getting some lucky cth deadly rolls?? so its pointless. :rolleyes: .

ww>zerk.period.

Rik

[ToThePoint]

Couple of points, Damric is 'right'.
People say they do 10k, they dont ..they do somewhere between min and max modified by DS.
Saying you do whatever by including the DS especially when high is just an extension of that.
Anyone that criticises it should check and see if they have wrongly quoted their damage as a static value.

Also i agree zerk > WW for hc 'duelling' (calling it duelling is a joke)
Zerk relies on luck yes but compared to WW its going to get more barb ears.
WW just doesn't have the killing speed as said before they will either just pot or leave game - no ear = no win!
Even going by lucky swings with DS 5kmax ww vs 50dr barb only do 850 dam per hit at max.
A couple of lucky swings can give the zerker barb a win though. If not pot and try again.
Low hits then both will pot them out.

[ADSL]

for hc 'duelling' (calling it duelling is a joke)


Oh it is?
What could be called a duel, if not the fight between two chars to the death?

[riplix]

1st: i don't doubt that ww is better then zerk over all, but i claim that maxing zerk benefits a barb more than spending those points in passives or wc's considering that some (!) monsters/areas are annoying to play with a pure ww barb with 1 point in zerk.


of course you CAN kill everything with 1 point but why not simply kill it in 1 hit instead of 6-7 (i want to own monsters not "take care" of them like you said). the sacrifice for this is some excess survivability every standard barb build has. barbs survive anyway, whether you max zerk or don't.

you can't derive from the topic if it's a pvp or pvm thread. i read through it and ppl seem to mention different aspects.

it depends on what kind of champs/bosses etc you kill. the low hp ones are no problem with ww but high hp is faster with zerk. it is not possible to kill everything with 1 ww and whereever you need 2-3, zerk is usually faster.

Fast running monsters:

??..give it a second thought.

you can(!) kill fast running monsters faster cuz they don't get a chance to run if they die to your first hit (more monsters die to 1 zerk hit than to 1 ww). if they run already it's pretty much the same. give it a 2nd thought ;)



Bosses-:A little thing called crushing blow.removes a percentage of remaining life instantly.A 4fpa attack is much much better when delivering CB than a slow & tedious ~12fpa-9fpa attack that is zerk.More attacks-more cb trigger,boss fight shortened to a fraction.Against bosses,I simply whirl & whirl while drinking pots-& then take care of the remanant life with zerk.Much faster than using zerk alone.Not to mention ww is safer & uniterruptible.


cb triggers with zerk and ww so it doesn't make a difference (well more attacks/sec with ww but that is negated by the far lower ar). if you p.e. kill baal, the ar on zerk kicks in and it's so much faster than ww. as far as "safer" is concerned: i hardly never die while zerking, i die while whirling carelessly in IM areas ;)


IM-obviously you have to zerk,but IM is where.. two areas in the game? chaos & WSK.


well exactly the point. those are the most interesting and often played areas in the game. so don't tell me you wouldn't like a kick-a$$ zerk down there!


Champs/Uniques:In a unique pack,the unique spawns first,& therefore becomes the default target for ww(for e.g:suppose the unique & a minion or any other monster(s) is in range along with the unique,ww will attack the unique).So whirling through a unique pack results in more hits on the unique & the unique is killed much faster,which results in dropping of dangerous auras like fana.Much more efficiency & you cant get swarmed.

well when i whirl through a pack of strong monsters, the boss is usually the last man standing and sometimes with lots of hp/stoneskin or even PI. why not deal with that with 2 zerk hits instead of whirling 5 times. i can never get swarmed because i got howl as zerk synergy. zerk the boss and then ww the rest.



ww>zerk.period.

i don't doubt it but zerk/howl > standard max shout/max mastery for a WW-barb in pvm
simply less annoying/more fun/even more effective

[ToThePoint]

Oh it is?
What could be called a duel, if not the fight between two chars to the death?
of course its a joke, its a matter of who is luckiest and can pot fastest and use chicken most effectively.
in sc people can afford to gamble with their lives and so can do a test of skill - hc its just dirty tactics and pkpkpkpkpotpotchickentriggerpk etc

[ADSL]

of course its a joke, its a matter of who is luckiest and can pot fastest and use chicken most effectively.
in sc people can afford to gamble with their lives and so can do a test of skill - hc its just dirty tactics and pkpkpkpkpotpotchickentriggerpk etc

Potting actually does require some sort of skill, its not everyone who can stay cold, and just drink one potion when you hardly can see any red left in your bubble, i doubt you have ever tried it, because then you would know whats the thrill of it is.

yes you do need luck with your rolls. but you also need the same amount of luck in sc, so that arguement doesnt really hold water.

So because there is chicken users, hardcore duelling is all about using chicken most effectively?

I could make the same statement about softcore "duelling", its a joke, becaue blablabla. its a matter of personal preference just because you dont see the fun in it, doesnt mean its a joke.
Just because i dont like duelling in softcore doesnt mean its a joke. and just because you dont like hardcore duelling doesnt mean its a joke.
Please

[rikstaker]

of course you CAN kill everything with 1 point but why not simply kill it in 1 hit instead of 6-7 (i want to own monsters not "take care" of them like you said). the sacrifice for this is some excess survivability every standard barb build has. barbs survive anyway, whether you max zerk or don't.

I'd rather walk around with double defense in 9/10 parts of the game rather than having a bit more zerk dmg for 1/10.They'd survive for sure,but the standard ww build rather than a hybrid maximizes efficiency & effectiveness.

1 hit instead of 6-7??? I doubt:

Standard setup:arreats,botdgpa,anni,bk,117 max from charms,205 strength,200% might ed,fort,40% ed jewel arreats,steels.59% chance of ds/cs with mastery,highlords & gores.

Comparison:Standard ww build with max ww,mastery,bo,shout,rest in skin(12 HARD @LVL 90) VS max ww,bo,mastery,zerk-rest in howl (12 HARD @LEVEL 90)

STANDARD WW:

Level 28 ww damage (166% ww-884% total ed):4102-12687 avg:8394 gross(*1.59):13347.

Level 9 zerk damage (480% zerk-1198% total ed):5185-16037 avg:10611 gross(*1.59):16871.

ZERK/HOWL WW:

Level 28 ww damage (166% ww-884% total ed):4102-12687 avg:8394 gross(*1.59):13347.(same)

Level 28 zerk damage (685% zerk-1403% total ed):5893-18224 avg:12058 gross(*1.59):19173.

Zerk dmg difference of both builds:

480% vs 685%

16871 vs 19173. Not quite in the range of 6-7x as you mentioned infact not even close.

Defense difference:

550% vs 250%.

assuming a 2.5k base defense:

Standard ww barb defense:16250
Zerk/howl ww barb defense:8750 (less than half)

That difference lingers for the entirity of the game except for defense ignoring enemies like Baals mnions.

One more thing,its obvious isnt it,this is what happens if you invest in zerk instead of shout:

you gain only:
5% more magic damage(net 15%-10% from shout)
15% more zerk ar

loose:
10% defense

The ww barb gains:
10% magic damage
10% defense

Looses:
5% zerk damage
15% zerk ar.

it depends on what kind of champs/bosses etc you kill. the low hp ones are no problem with ww but high hp is faster with zerk. it is not possible to kill everything with 1 ww and whereever you need 2-3, zerk is usually faster.

I certainly dont bother with the decisions about whether a champ/unqiue is low hp or high hp-depends more on no. of players in the game. WW does more dmg over time-thats what counts in the end equation,target hp doesnt really matter, as the killing power is plain superior to zerk.

you can(!) kill fast running monsters faster cuz they don't get a chance to run if they die to your first hit (more monsters die to 1 zerk hit than to 1 ww). if they run already it's pretty much the same. give it a 2nd thought ;)

erm..its hard to land a hit on a fleeing monsters with stand-deliver attacks.Not to mention that running behind them for a while or should I say, running behind them with 0 defense,taking enemy missiles,messy.For ww-simply ride over them & they are dead in one whirl,unless you are using cracked axes.Also,you can use taunt & make them come at you in a line & whirl over them,100% efficiency-while the zerker can taunt & kill one at a time.

cb triggers with zerk and ww so it doesn't make a difference (well more attacks/sec with ww but that is negated by the far lower ar). if you p.e. kill baal, the ar on zerk kicks in and it's so much faster than ww. as far as "safer" is concerned: i hardly never die while zerking, i die while whirling carelessly in IM areas ;)

Well no offense,but you are not a good barb player if you whirl carelessly in IM areas.

& ofcourse cb does trigger with zerk,but naturally it would trigger more often with more frequency.Talon kickers pack cb for a reason.

4fpa ww vs 12 fpa zerk
6 attacks per second vs 2 attacks per second

with ww 25% cb means, a cb trigger 1.5 times per second.
with zerk 25% cb means a cb trigger 0.5 times per second.

3x more.

well exactly the point. those are the most interesting and often played areas in the game. so don't tell me you wouldn't like a kick-a$$ zerk down there!

1.Totally subjective,lots of people there who run pits with their barbs where there arent any PIs at all.Travi runner builds out there as well.Sadly, barbs have no real role in baalruns except for boing,everything is cooked with meteors & hammers instantly.
2.Zerking with a twohander without warcry can get hot at times in the throne/chaos.

well when i whirl through a pack of strong monsters, the boss is usually the last man standing and sometimes with lots of hp/stoneskin or even PI. why not deal with that with 2 zerk hits instead of whirling 5 times. i can never get swarmed because i got howl as zerk synergy. zerk the boss and then ww the rest.

stoneskins & PIs will withstand,but by default they are spawned first & hence are the default ww target-therefore hit more.


i don't doubt it but zerk/howl > standard max shout/max mastery for a WW-barb in pvm
simply less annoying/more fun/even more effective

trust me,I am all for different builds-but quite simply hybrids dont stand upto synergised builds or standard passive ww builds if you are talking overall efficiency & effectiveness.

Rik

[riplix]

I'd rather walk around with double defense in 9/10 parts of the game rather than having a bit more zerk dmg for 1/10.They'd survive for sure,but the standard ww build rather than a hybrid maximizes efficiency & effectiveness.

1 hit instead of 6-7??? I doubt:

Standard setup:arreats,botdgpa,anni,bk,117 max from charms,205 strength,200% might ed,fort,40% ed jewel arreats,steels.59% chance of ds/cs with mastery,highlords & gores.

Comparison:Standard ww build with max ww,mastery,bo,shout,rest in skin(12 HARD @LVL 90) VS max ww,bo,mastery,zerk-rest in howl (12 HARD @LEVEL 90)

STANDARD WW:

Level 28 ww damage (166% ww-884% total ed):4102-12687 avg:8394 gross(*1.59):13347.

Level 9 zerk damage (480% zerk-1198% total ed):5185-16037 avg:10611 gross(*1.59):16871.

ZERK/HOWL WW:

Level 28 ww damage (166% ww-884% total ed):4102-12687 avg:8394 gross(*1.59):13347.(same)

Level 28 zerk damage (685% zerk-1403% total ed):5893-18224 avg:12058 gross(*1.59):19173.

Zerk dmg difference of both builds:

480% vs 685%

16871 vs 19173. Not quite in the range of 6-7x as you mentioned infact not even close.

Defense difference:

550% vs 250%.

assuming a 2.5k base defense:

Standard ww barb defense:16250
Zerk/howl ww barb defense:8750 (less than half)

That difference lingers for the entirity of the game except for defense ignoring enemies like Baals mnions.

One more thing,its obvious isnt it,this is what happens if you invest in zerk instead of shout:

you gain only:
5% more magic damage(net 15%-10% from shout)
15% more zerk ar

loose:
10% defense

The ww barb gains:
10% magic damage
10% defense

Looses:
5% zerk damage
15% zerk ar.



I certainly dont bother with the decisions about whether a champ/unqiue is low hp or high hp-depends more on no. of players in the game. WW does more dmg over time-thats what counts in the end equation,target hp doesnt really matter, as the killing power is plain superior to zerk.



erm..its hard to land a hit on a fleeing monsters with stand-deliver attacks.Not to mention that running behind them for a while or should I say, running behind them with 0 defense,taking enemy missiles,messy.For ww-simply ride over them & they are dead in one whirl,unless you are using cracked axes.Also,you can use taunt & make them come at you in a line & whirl over them,100% efficiency-while the zerker can taunt & kill one at a time.



Well no offense,but you are not a good barb player if you whirl carelessly in IM areas.

& ofcourse cb does trigger with zerk,but naturally it would trigger more often with more frequency.Talon kickers pack cb for a reason.

4fpa ww vs 12 fpa zerk
6 attacks per second vs 2 attacks per second

with ww 25% cb means, a cb trigger 1.5 times per second.
with zerk 25% cb means a cb trigger 0.5 times per second.

3x more.



1.Totally subjective,lots of people there who run pits with their barbs where there arent any PIs at all.Travi runner builds out there as well.Sadly, barbs have no real role in baalruns except for boing,everything is cooked with meteors & hammers instantly.
2.Zerking with a twohander without warcry can get hot at times in the throne/chaos.



stoneskins & PIs will withstand,but by default they are spawned first & hence are the default ww target-therefore hit more.




trust me,I am all for different builds-but quite simply hybrids dont stand upto synergised builds or standard passive ww builds if you are talking overall efficiency & effectiveness.

Rik


i exagurated a little on the 1 vs. 7 hits of course. well your math is nice but if you do it, not considering physical res and superior ar isn't very objective.

with that gear you're listing, you should consider that most players can't afford this and imo a ww build i much more dependent on a VERY good weapon like no other barb build.

i was having a hard time with a decent bonehew till i was finally able to afford a botd gpa. till then ww was crappy and i used zerk far more often.

as far as ww'ing carelessly is concerned, it is of no matter of importance here if i'm a good or bad player. I'm playing for fun and i don't mind dying once in a while because i'm to lazy to check if there are oblivions out of my sight.

summary:
all i'm saying is that there is a effective way of combining ww and zerk and ppl won't regret trying it. hybrids tend to be slower killers but increasing the offense of a char by also maxing zerk and sacrificing some excess def doesn't slow down. one might have to play slightly more carefully with howl imo being a strong defensive skill that can cope with lower def easily. any experienced barb player is probably able to play this hybrid as effectivly as the standard cookie-cutter.

[riplix]

oops double

[Damric]

I love berserk, and I have my share of ww babas. I would never try to make a hybrid.

There are not enough skill points to be effective.

They are totally different strategies of play.

Just make 2 seperate characters. They are both good builds when you do that.