We Should Have An Intelectual Debate (or DUEL) On Any Topic...Read on(philosophy) [Archive]

DanteAlastor

14-05-2005, 19:14

Let the Intelectual Battles BEGIN
Ok.. rules are no flaming and no ad-homonim on their reasoning give atleast 2 reasons to support ur views/theory/proof/ can be religious beliefs coupled with scientific or anthropologic study to support ur views
Topics? to be discussed

Does God Exist/what is God?(my answer is yes)

Does Hell exist?(same yes)

Morality?.Do we have "Freedom?"(no) Euthenasia good or bad?(good) is pornography immoral?(yes)Do humans have free will?(no)is abortion moral? is *** marriage immoral?(yes)

What is the fate of mankind?

Is there a Possibility that life only exist on Earth? (no)or Life exist other than earth?(yes)

Why Terrorist attacks America?(religious beliefs/intervention(s) of America to the affair(s) to other countries?)

IF REPLIED I WOULD GIVE U MY DEDUCTION CONDUCTION PROOF AND REASONINGS

if no one replied Scrap this thread i dont care.

Steve_Kow

14-05-2005, 19:20

DEDUCTION CONDUCTION PROOF

I'm going to use that line.

greatrambino1981

14-05-2005, 19:46

Proof there is a god? I want to hear this.

Alviarin

14-05-2005, 19:57

www.jesusoftheweek.com

nosoup4crr

14-05-2005, 19:58

Alright, I've got one that I'm interested in hearing others' opinions on. It is my contention that Democracy (Representative or Direct) cannot function in a society such as the US, where the media plays such a prominent role in the miseducation of its citizens.

Now, should you contend that the citizens aren't influenced majoritarily by the media, I would allude to 3 instances in which it is negotiable, if not apparent, that citizens know only half truths. The Nicaraguan conflict int he early 90's was largely ignored by major news medias, despite the fact that it is still, to date, one of the most poignant examples of terrorist action in the world. America was responsible for these breaches in the etiquitte of war, and as a result they were not focussed on within the states. Because of this, there are very few citizens who are even cognizant of this event. The same can be said about certain facets of the Patriot Act. Only those portions of the Act that were heavily covered in the media are recognized by the public, at large. While other portions (phone tapping, the marginalization of the burden of proof, etc.) are unknown to them. And lastly, I would allude to the idea that a majority of citizens form opinons on presidential candidates based solely on information on Television.

In the past, there was more accountability on behalf of the media for the information they give. That's not to say that if a broadcast company presents false information, they won't be punished, but rather, that these companies are more and more only presenting opinionated information. While many citizens still look to these programs for factual information with a minimal amount of interpretation, the contrary is true.

Because of this, Democracy is not feasible. Democracy is contingent on the idea that the polis is of certain ability and knowledge with which to function as an extention of the government. Intrinsic to this idea is that each individual is able to keep his self-autonomy. The self-autonomy of these individuals are being taken through coercion and misinformation. The result is a polis who is acting as an extention of those individuals who feed them information. Thus, we don't have a Democracy, but instead a Guardianship. And furthermore, this disables any ability we have to function as a Democracy.

Alviarin

14-05-2005, 20:02

SuggestiveName

14-05-2005, 20:29

UserMathias

14-05-2005, 20:34

How do you explain evil? Easy. God is a sick mother****er. And we are his play toys.

djoat

14-05-2005, 20:42

This is way too many questions for one thread, but I will pick one. If say you can argue there is a god, how do you explain away the problem of evil. (Put simply: "It is logically impossible to believe that both evil, and a good and powerful God exist in the same reality, for such a God certainly could and would destroy evil.")

I think most religions state that evil will be destroyed in times to come. Also, the fact that you perceive something as 'evil' and something as 'good' shows you have some internal form of standards with which to compare these. Since its largely agreed whats good and evil, whats right and wrong, whats fair or unfair, then all of us have this same set of moral standard. What would make us so homogeneous in our morals, unless we have the same creator? If our morals or set of standards evolve individually, there would be no reason to argue on whats right or wrong, since everyone would have their own set of standards. People can only argue if they're debating on the same platform.

djoat

14-05-2005, 20:56

How do you explain evil? Easy. God is a sick mother****er. And we are his play toys.

Evil exists because you and i are sick moother****ers. :D

PublicEnemy

14-05-2005, 20:57

This is way too many questions for one thread, but I will pick one. If say you can argue there is a god, how do you explain away the problem of evil. (Put simply: "It is logically impossible to believe that both evil, and a good and powerful God exist in the same reality, for such a God certainly could and would destroy evil.")
God has created reasonable beings so that they could choose between good and evil.Free will of Man is the way of God to put him to the test.If he had no free will,he wouldn't have the will to choose good instead of evil.If he hadn't wanted to have good and evil exist in the same world,he wouldn't have created reasonable beings,he would rather have created perfect beings without any free will.

Necrolestes

14-05-2005, 21:14

Hell exists because we exist. It may not be a tangible place but it is reachable if you have the right (and by this I mean the wrong) mindset.

We make our lives and other peoples lives better or worse based on how we view the world. If we have a positive world view (altruistic), then we tend to make other people's lives easier and better; in such a world where everyone acted in this fashion, there would be no hell (but as we all know, this is not the case). If we have a negative world view (narcissistic), we make everyone else miserable at our expense; this makes the world a living hell for some.

Stevinator

14-05-2005, 21:22

I think most religions state that evil will be destroyed in times to come. Also, the fact that you perceive something as 'evil' and something as 'good' shows you have some internal form of standards with which to compare these. Since its largely agreed whats good and evil, whats right and wrong, whats fair or unfair, then all of us have this same set of moral standard. What would make us so homogeneous in our morals, unless we have the same creator? If our morals or set of standards evolve individually, there would be no reason to argue on whats right or wrong, since everyone would have their own set of standards. People can only argue if they're debating on the same platform.

who said we agree on what's right and what's wrong.....

abortion
capital punishment
euthenasia
Homosexuality
etc
etc
etc

10 bucks says you can't get more than even 90% agreement on the morality of these topics, much less 100%. heck, it'd be tough to get 70% on a some.

God has created reasonable beings so that they could choose between good and evil.Free will of Man is the way of God to put him to the test.If he had no free will,he wouldn't have the will to choose good instead of evil.If he hadn't wanted to have good and evil exist in the same world,he wouldn't have created reasonable beings,he would rather have created perfect beings without any free will.

Sure, that sounds good, but what's the point of leaving us here in the first place? Just to see if we'll choose to be good? God's supposed to be all knowing, so he knows what we'll choose. why punish the good and reward the evil with this existence? seems to me a much simpler explanation is there is no god at all.

Besides, if we were truly reasonable, we'd all use spaces after commas and periods to distiguish between sentences and clauses. You see written communication is more efficient if it is easily recognizable, and any reasonable person would be willing to encourage efficiency.

Clearly this is not the case, because you refuse to use spaces properly, and I refuse to look up words i can't recall how to spell.

This is way too many questions for one thread, but I will pick one. If say you can argue there is a god, how do you explain away the problem of evil. (Put simply: "It is logically impossible to believe that both evil, and a good and powerful God exist in the same reality, for such a God certainly could and would destroy evil.")

Agreed on both points. (too many questions, and the impossibility of both god and evil co-existing)

UserMathias

14-05-2005, 21:55

Agreed on both points. (too many questions, and the impossibility of both god and evil co-existing)

I don't get it. Why can't God be evil? Where was that assumption made and why?

djoat

14-05-2005, 21:57

who said we agree on what's right and what's wrong.....

abortion
capital punishment
euthenasia
Homosexuality
etc
etc
etc

10 bucks says you can't get more than even 90% agreement on the morality of these topics, much less 100%. heck, it'd be tough to get 70% on a some.

True, but what we use to define these and argue over them are still certain standards we all have. Each point has good vs bad points.

Abortion:
good: prevents an unwanted birth which would make the child in question have a miserable life
bad: killing a baby

When we argue about these topics, we are merely debating over whether the good points overide the bad points, or vice versa. We argue over whether the foetus is actually alive already. Notice how you don't list the morality of murder as something we cannot agree over? Abortion could or could not be murder. Therefore argument can ensue as to the 'rightness' of such an act.

Same goes with euthanasia, there are good and bad parts of it that is similar to abortion. Same with capital punishment. (good: gets rid of people who murder [murder is wrong. If we're not agreed, we can't even charge them.] etc etc. bad: again, whether we have the right to take somebody's life just because they did something wrong.)

Homosexuality is just wrong. :p

So its more of the good and bad points within each of such topics that we discuss about. The question is whether the 'good' in them far outweigh the 'bad', or the 'bad' far outweigh the 'good'.

If we each have a different set of moral standards, no one would argue about such points as it would be pointless. If i went and said something like "Abortion should be supported because unborn babies die!!" You would go "wtf?" Even when debating over such issues, we hold certain moral standards.

DanteAlastor

14-05-2005, 22:03

Also.

DanteAlastor: When you learn English, or even how to spell the word intellectual while attempting to be it, I will consider making a reply.

Lastly: My Jesus could clean the floor with your Jesus.

ok sorry for my human mistakes specially spelling the word intellectual because im not perfect like you
im so sorry because i was rushing and i am bound to my human imperfections not like you..

by the way Jesus is not a God... he's a man but not ordinary man.. Jesus is the Savior.
why do you say "my jesus" ... is jesus your property? you are also implying that there are 2 jesuses "your jesus" and vs "my jesus" thats your fallible belief.

i think we should vote on what topic we should vote and debate on that only 1 topic. because men cannot multi-task vs women who multi task.

debating too much topic can cause confusion and loss of flow of thought therefore we must vote..
1 vote on Euthanasia.

SuggestiveName

14-05-2005, 22:32

I don't get it. Why can't God be evil? Where was that assumption made and why?The traditional view of God is that he is a perfectly good and all powerful being. If God is evil, then the problem is solved, but we lose God as a basis for morality.

djgoat and public enemy: You are arguing that evil in the world provides us with free will and the ability to choose between good and evil. The problem is we are stuck in a sort of moral paralysis. Example: God allows people to die in earthquakes all the time. I have a very accurate tool to predict earthquakes, and I know one will happen in Los Angeles tomorrow. Do I warn the city or not? After all God wouldn't warn the city, and since God is perfectly good, the moral, good, decent thing to do is to let those people die.

Secondly, how does a world with no natural evil preclude free will? The causal connection there is shaky at best with no argument to support it.

UserMathias

14-05-2005, 22:39

God is supposed to be our basis for morality? o.O

Ugh. People. Thanks for clearing that bit up for me all the same.

Namyeknom

14-05-2005, 22:44

Did you just get a bulk order of Pandora's boxes, and couldn't wait to try them out? A thread on anyone of these subjects is likely to get pretty heated, but all of them? Well, fortune favours the bold as they say...

Agreed theres too many points up for discussion.

One thing I would say is alot of the topics are questions basically about faith. Unfortunately either way, theres no really way to prove it. Its impossible to prove something doesn't exist, and one of the keystones of faith is the belief in something that is unproven, in a scientific context.

Also, the 'is the a possibility that life only exists on Earth?' question. Of course the answer in yes. Theres always a possiblity that life only exists on Earth. It might be tiny beyond measure, but until we find extra-terrestrials the possiblity remains.

And I final point, I think saying that terrorists attack America because of religious beliefs is on the risky side. I don't believe it says anywhere in the Quran that America must be attacked, just as theres no where in the Bible that says you've got to set off on crusades. Terrorists decide on a course of action and then twist their religion to justify it (indeed just as the crusaders did...).

Alviarin

14-05-2005, 22:44

My Jesus forgives you for doubting in your own Jesus.

djoat

14-05-2005, 22:53

The traditional view of God is that he is a perfectly good and all powerful being. If God is evil, then the problem is solved, but we lose God as a basis for morality.

djgoat and public enemy: You are arguing that evil in the world provides us with free will and the ability to choose between good and evil. The problem is we are stuck in a sort of moral paralysis. Example: God allows people to die in earthquakes all the time. I have a very accurate tool to predict earthquakes, and I know one will happen in Los Angeles tomorrow. Do I warn the city or not? After all God wouldn't warn the city, and since God is perfectly good, the moral, good, decent thing to do is to let those people die.

Secondly, how does a world with no natural evil preclude free will? The causal connection there is shaky at best with no argument to support it.

This may be more a question of "why does God allow earthquakes or suffering and pain for that matter?" I do not presume to know, but here are some of my views on that (your hypothetical situation assumes there's a God, so i will too):

1) Natural disasters put humans in place. If humans can solve every problem then perhaps they will get arrogant and ignore God. (this may make God himself sound selfish, but if you look at it so much so that people who ignore God goes to hell, maybe its a viable call to attention?) Maybe i have not worded this the best way though. :(

2) Death means nothing to God and men, if dying means just attaining your immortality. So death from earthquakes and the like could be God's way of taking people away to heaven faster because He does not want them to suffer the trials on being on earth, or ridding earth of some nasty people. :p

3) This third point addresses the suffering part of the issue. Pain is essential. There are a few rare cases of people being born who cannot feel pain. They are considered disabled, because they'll never know when they're bodies need to recover, or rest, or when they're losing blood etc. Parents teach by exerting controlled pain on their children. This may or may not pertain to large scale suffering. Hm.. :rolleyes:

As to what you should do: TELL EVERYONE THERE'S AN EARTHQUAKE!!!!
A teacher may not tell his students what to do, so they may better figure it out themself. If life is a test, why would God do it? He wants you to do it. If God doesn't do it, it doesn't mean you should not. :p

There are evil and good actions (and neutral???). Having free will enables you to choose between the both of them. If we can only do good, then our choice and free will has been compromised. However I think you're asking what if there is no such thing as evil at all, so that out of all the actions we can choose to do, we can only choose to do good???

Damn, i'm wasting too much time thinking about these lol...i missed my baal run!!!

DanteAlastor

14-05-2005, 22:54

My Jesus forgives you for doubting in your own Jesus.

i didnt bring up Jesus as a topic debate...Follow the rules.. No discussion about jesus

for the last time there is no such thing as YOUR or MY Jesus..

and it looks like that people are picking the topic theology discussion.

here is my belief. and i will try to use reasonings(conduction.deduction. to point out.. its up to you to agree or disagree)
Christianity:
1. God existed before man.
2. God exists in Heaven, apart from man.
3. God represents pure goodness, perfection, etc. God can see the big picture.
4. God has autonomy. He can make choices based on how things are going, create things and destroy them if He feels so inclined, etc.
5. God wanted company so He created children. Satan is just another child of God.
6. Sin is anything that comes between God and His children. Call this evil if you want.
7. Love is that which brings God's children closer to God. This is alternately termed righteousness.
8. God needed to make sure His children really wanted to be with Him and decided to give them a choice. This is also called Free Will.
9. God wants His children to be with Him. Therefore God loves His children.
10. Before free will, at least some of His children lived in Eden, a place free of sin. After free will, His children live on Earth.
11. At this time, God's children apparently cannot start their existence in Eden or Heaven. Ironically, there appears to be no option to not be conceived or to decline free will.
12. Just having free will automatically separates God from His children. Adam's decision to choose knowledge (free will)
13. The effect of God's direct presence (perfect goodness) would preclude man from being able to employ free will. Therefore God does not directly interfere.
14. Less than optimal (bad) things happen because of man's separation (sin) from God. Sin is not a failing of God; it is the consequence of choice (free will) of His children.
15. God gave the 10 commandments to man as a guideline for righteousness.
16. The Bible was written by men inspired HOWEVER. Many people distort Jesus' simple message and that is the cause of much confusion, manipulation, victimization, intolerance, violence, etc.
17. Some churches were created by men to spread the Word of God. Being a creation of man, it is fallible. Only Jesus’ Church is infallible
18. Also called "The Way", Jesus was sent to bridge the gap of sin between God and His children. Jesus was not sent to alleviate the earthly manifestations of man's sin.
19. The crucifixion was symbolic payment for sin. Jesus' last words “It is finished” are the final word in the redemption of man; one need only accept Jesus' sacrifice to be reunited with God.
20. The resurrection was a form of tangible proof that God will be reunited with His children and is the foundation of faith.
21. Life on Earth is a test of whether God's children want to be with God. No matter how long your life is you have sufficient opportunity to determine your destiny.
22. If you choose not to be with God, it's your choice. Suffering ensues only as a consequence of being apart from God. Hell is simply greater separation from God; it is not sadistic punishment.
23. If you choose to be with God, you get to be with God. Your reward is the alleviation of sin.

ill leave it to this point for now and I will give you my reasonings(my proof) of God's Existence

theBlackKnight

14-05-2005, 22:54

My Jesus forgives you for doubting in your own Jesus.

My nacho's and double gulp laugh at both of your jesus' . ( I dont know how to pluralize that particular proper noun )

djoat

14-05-2005, 22:58

. Unfortunately either way, theres no really way to prove it. Its impossible to prove something doesn't exist, and one of the keystones of faith is the belief in something that is unproven, in a scientific context.

I second that. You can attempt to deduce the existence of a God through logical reasoning, but it'll probably end up nowhere...Atheists and theists have been at this for years.

Although I'd really like to hear the original poster validate his claims through his "deduction" and "reasoning".

DanteAlastor

14-05-2005, 23:10

I second that. You can attempt to deduce the existence of a God through logical reasoning, but it'll probably end up nowhere...Atheists and theists have been at this for years.

Although I'd really like to hear the original poster validate his claims through his "deduction" and "reasoning".

TO THE BEST OF MY INTELLECTUAL ABILITIES MY CONDUCTION+REASONING
1st cause
Something exists. For example, I exist because I am conscious and aware. God exists because something can only produce something. Universe exists because God created it. Production implies that there is an actual producer. Therefore, if something is produced, or in other words caused, it must be produced or caused by someone who already exists. That existing thing is God. This means that there were not have a point in time at which nothing existed, for then nothing would exist now. Since something does currently exists, for example, human beings, animals, the universe, these thing proves that there could never been a point at which nothing exist. Therefore, there must necessarily have always existed something. God always existed necessarily. God must necessarily exist. The necessary being (God) by definition must necessarily exist.

therefore God exist.

djoat

14-05-2005, 23:15

DrunkCajun

14-05-2005, 23:17

So because existence is here, God and Jesus Christ have to exist? Not sure I follow. What's to say that something else or someone else didn't create everything? Or that it hasn't been here all along?

The problem with this sort of speculation is that it is beyond yours and my ability to fathom this sort of thing. The easy answer is that God did it, and it's a nice and tidy way for us to answer it, but easy doesn't always mean right. Just my $0.02.

maccool

14-05-2005, 23:23

TO THE BEST OF MY INTELLECTUAL ABILITIES MY CONDUCTION+REASONING

I fail to see what heat flow has to do with your lack of any point whatsoever.

DanteAlastor

14-05-2005, 23:25

@DanteAlastor You did not say we were arguing about the existence of a Christian God? A nice summation of certain beliefs in Christianity though. :thumbsup:

I now forsee a debate on creation versus evolution and questions like "Then where did God come from?" lol.

God IS TOO OMNIPOTENT to have a begining, therefore God doesnt have a begining or the end... Your question Doesnt have an answer to where god come from. However in Christian Beliefs God is Self manifesting (without begining)

but in other religious beliefs (specially polytheism) may have the answer.
in Greek mythology. zeus came from the titans.

Sorry i Dont know enough about Judaism, Hinduism, Muslim, Wican/Druids(polytheism) because i have not learn it.

Namyeknom

14-05-2005, 23:25

I fail to see what heat flow has to do with your lack of any point whatsoever.

Ahh, thats just cruel.

(Wish I'd picked up on that first...)

DanteAlastor

14-05-2005, 23:33

THere is no Scientific of Disprooving or Proving the existence
Debate About Existance of God is an endless battle.. which is why i voted debate about Euthinasia

blu3l1ghtn1ng

14-05-2005, 23:34

Alviarin

14-05-2005, 23:35

My nacho's and double gulp laugh at both of your jesus' . ( I dont know how to pluralize that particular proper noun )

According to my first post in this thread, the plural is Jesi.

SilentMagik

14-05-2005, 23:36

therefore God exist.

I may not agree with some of your deductions, but fair enough.. Now, according to your own logic and reasoning, we only have to figure out who created God.

Namyeknom

14-05-2005, 23:44

I may not agree with some of your deductions, but fair enough.. Now, according to your own logic and reasoning, we only have to figure out who created God.

Ahh, but the whole point is that God always existed.

DanteAlastor

14-05-2005, 23:49

I fail to see what heat flow has to do with your lack of any point whatsoever.
another 1st cause conduction
universe had a beginning and something has caused that beginning
Nothing can produce nothing nothing cannot produce something and something can only produce something.
since something exist today(or the universe as we know it) something must have created or biogenesis (the development of life from preexisting life)
it is impossible to create life without a maker or a life giver. ..my point is that life giver is God and God create everything as we see today.

maccool

14-05-2005, 23:56

another 1st cause conduction

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Nothing can produce nothing nothing cannot produce something and something can only produce something.
since something exist today(or the universe as we know it) something must have created or biogenesis (the development of life from preexisting life)
it is impossible to create life without a maker or a life giver. ..my point is that life giver is God and God create everything as we see today.

You have yet to make a point, you are expressing your opinion as fact. As the late Senator Patrick Moynihan said, "You are entitled to your own opinions. You are not, however entitled to your own facts."

I would add that you are also not entitled to keep butchering the English language.

Is pathetisad a word?

Namyeknom

15-05-2005, 00:07

I would add that you are also not entitled to keep butchering the English language.

I'm almost tempted to become a Pal, just to have that as a signature...

DanteAlastor

15-05-2005, 00:20

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

You have yet to make a point, you are expressing your opinion as fact. As the late Senator Patrick Moynihan said, "You are entitled to your own opinions. You are not, however entitled to your own facts."

I would add that you are also not entitled to keep butchering the English language.

Is pathetisad a word?

sorry my mistake im sleepy therefore words are comming out of my head and typos are being typed.
this is why i get a grade of C to a B- in English. and failed English in Elementary. i butchered english words alot 2many times sorry.
i need to take a rest to make my mind sharp im fatigued
change conduction to deduction

maccool Nice AD-Homonim argument and irrelevant fallacies specially when u asked me the word pathetisad though

kryo

15-05-2005, 00:23

Ahh, but the whole point is that God always existed.

The general idea is that as a god would have created time (time being a component of our continuum to which he is external), before he did so there was no "before" with which to reference his existence or lack thereof. Thus it is impossible to even postulate any events prior, since there is by definition no "prior" to debate over. There was no timeline, no "before" or "after", only "is".

Namyeknom

15-05-2005, 00:28

maccool Nice AD-Homonim argument though

Garbad's going to be after you for that...

DanteAlastor

15-05-2005, 00:30

Before this game gets out of hand lets move on to a new topic..somethin more relevant to a human life .Diplomacy? Free will? morality?euthanasia?why do humans create war?

the reason i created this thread is to "use" different people's view becuse im taking philosophy class as a requirement for sociology(i dunno why sociology is required for degree) to complete my bachelors degree

and i dont want to just sit in a 100 full of students rebutle eachother. im using u guys views to support MINE and or create a rebutle that is against my views.
for example is euthanasia moral? yes or no.. i would take what you typed on this thread and use it in class to either support or create a rebutle. (btw ive already have enough BOOKS AND INFOS about morality. now its time to put it into a test using u guys as an example or saying your views and reasoning)

i revealed my TRUTH UPON CREATING THIS THREAD. now can we play fair?

greatrambino1981

15-05-2005, 00:42

Garbad_the_Weak

15-05-2005, 00:48

DanteAlastor

15-05-2005, 00:55

Garbad's going to be after you for that...

i didnt break any rules of the forum... if so prove it and give me the link how does it break a rule. (unless he gets offended by what i said) then i gonna have to say im sorry didnt mean to hurt your feelings. just stating my reasoning.

DanteAlastor

15-05-2005, 01:00

Yay. Debating on an internet forum. Trying to solve questions that the greatest minds throughout history could not. While we are trying to prove the existence of god, let's find a cure for cancer too. :thumbsup:

well its time to make history by solving the questions?
finding a cure for cancer?
we need an enzyme that catabolize on a foreign bacteria however humans do not know how to create such enzyme that breaks down foreign bacteria while not harming the DNA stucture of the Human body. the enzyme may or may not be an inhibitor to the foreign structures

but i believe humans will find or create this enzyme that cures cancer

or humans might develope a natural killer cells or phagocitic cells that enables humans to resist such cancer? its time for us to evolve our lympathic system. but evolution only takes place by millions of years of exposure to harmful cells

Necrolestes

15-05-2005, 01:06

well its time to make history by solving the questions?
finding a cure for cancer?
we need an enzyme that catabolize on a foreign bacteria however humans do not know how to create such enzyme that breaks down foreign bacteria while not harming the DNA stucture of the Human body. the enzyme may or may not be an inhibitor to the foreign structures

but i believe humans will find or create this enzyme that cures cancer

or humans might develope a natural killer cells that enables us to resist such cancer? its time for us to evolve

We won't find a panacea for cancer but we will find a treatment for each and every cancer that will allow us to die of old age before we die of cancer (though how long before this prophecy comes to pass is anyone's guess...we have treatments that eradicate cancers but none that absolutely prevent cancer's recurrence). We won't evolve to the point where we are cancer immune because cancer won't let us...it will evolve along with us (most cancers are caused by something called oncogenes; when these oncogenes are turned on, cancer can result if our normal anti-cancer genes aren't functioning properly; these oncogenes are themselves mutants and as such change over time, creating the same cancer but in a different fashion).

greatrambino1981

15-05-2005, 01:09

Professionals built the Titantic. Amateurs built the ark.

Garbad

True but I think the amateurs had a little help/proffesional advice. If I remember my Sunday school stories right.

Also, the remark about curing cancer was sarcasm. Maybe this would have been clearer. :rolleyes:

Suicidal Zebra

15-05-2005, 01:18

maccool Nice AD-Homonim argument and irrelevant fallacies specially when u asked me the word pathetisad though

That couldn't have been an ad-hom arguement because Mac didn't make reference to Dick Cheney's lesbian daughter.

maccool

15-05-2005, 01:56

That couldn't have been an ad-hom arguement because Mac didn't make reference to Dick Cheney's lesbian daughter.

But I will now! Ha ha, she prefers women!

Good to 'see' you SZ. Summer already ;)?

DanteAlastor

15-05-2005, 02:51

We won't find a panacea for cancer but we will find a treatment for each and every cancer that will allow us to die of old age before we die of cancer (though how long before this prophecy comes to pass is anyone's guess...we have treatments that eradicate cancers but none that absolutely prevent cancer's recurrence). We won't evolve to the point where we are cancer immune because cancer won't let us...it will evolve along with us (most cancers are caused by something called oncogenes; when these oncogenes are turned on, cancer can result if our normal anti-cancer genes aren't functioning properly; these oncogenes are themselves mutants and as such change over time, creating the same cancer but in a different fashion).

virus evolve faster than humans... arg.. future humans "might" be immune to todays cancer/disease but will not be immune to future diseases. since cancers/cells evolve at a faster rate by having new types of DNA structures?
so we are stuck on a never ending quest to create an antidote/drugs/full rejuvination/allcure... which means we will never get the resistance to all types of disease... LIFE AS WE KNOW IT IS GOOD . :lol:

Suicidal Zebra

15-05-2005, 03:57

But I will now! Ha ha, she prefers women!

Good to 'see' you SZ. Summer already ;)?

Nah, just saw this discussion thread by a guy called Alastor, and as we all know hilarity loves company.

Plus Uni is getting me down, and spamming random comments in dull threads perks me up a little ;)

And as for butchering English, this isn't butchering English. We've been butchering the English for centuries and know what butchering looks like...

Perhaps I've said too much...

Anakha1

15-05-2005, 05:44

God exists because something can only produce something.

God IS TOO OMNIPOTENT to have a begining, therefore God doesnt have a begining or the end...

That whole thing is just one giant paradox. In one post you say everything must have a creator and in the next you say god has no creator. You can't make a definitive statement and then disprove it in the next. And no, things don't need something else to create them by your logic. If god can exist forever and has existed forever, then so can the universe? The universe has always been and always will be, in one form or another and has no need of a god.

djoat

15-05-2005, 09:14

SilentMagik

15-05-2005, 12:55

Ahh, but the whole point is that God always existed.

I realize that. I just wanted to point out the absurdity in the chain of reasoning here. It strange how someone can argue "because it exists it must have been created" and then in the next sentence change his/hers own way of reasoning completely by claiming God always existed. You cant have it both ways! Yet another proof that logic and religion dont mix. That is why this whole discussion is kinda going in circles.

Namyeknom

15-05-2005, 12:58

I realize that. I just wanted to point out the absurdity in the chain of reasoning here. It strange how someone can argue "because it exists it must have been created" and then in the next sentence change his/hers own way of reasoning completely by claiming God always existed. You cant have it both ways! Yet another proof that logic and religion dont mix. That is why this whole discussion is kinda going in circles.

Shhh, I don't think anyones noticed... :eek:

Back to the topic though, its still unprovable using the creation of the universe as an example. Any arguement on the beginnings of the universe revolve around a point at which time began (either through creation by God, or at the point when the universe came into being) and as someone said (djoat, i think), we have no way of speculating on what caused this as it is outside our deductive capacity.

Garbad_the_Weak

15-05-2005, 14:20

That couldn't have been an ad-hom arguement because Mac didn't make reference to Dick Cheney's lesbian daughter. :lol:

Garbad

Anakha1

15-05-2005, 14:43

As kyro said, God created time, therefore anything 'before' God is impossible for us to conceive. Put simply, even if God came from somewhere, it is out of the boundaries of our deduction and logic. If you have the power to create something, the beings you create would be inferior to you and have no clue as to why they were created or where you came from either.

The universe always existing is something perhaps as absurd, if not more than the fact that God exists. The Universe as we know it, includes time. God does not. If the universe has always existed, this will include an infinite amout of time. Since evolution started at a certain point in time, we cannot say that it has always existed.

Unless you are saying that the universe, has for an infinite amout of time remained static, until something triggered life. Infinite is incomprehensible, and the way life would start only after such an amout of time is likewise, imcomprehensible. God however created time. The universe conforms with time. The universe cannot then have possible created time. God is outside time. Imagine God as an author. An author creates the setting, the time period, the environment in the book. He's also 'outside' the 'time' in the book.
He can write "Instantly, at the next moment, John realized...." then he stops writing to think for an hour, and continues his statement.

God created time and has always been outside of time. The universe cannot have had always existed, merely because it conforms with time.
Just because something is incomprehensible doesn't make it impossible. There is no rhyme nor reason to believe that an intelligent and self-aware omnipotenent being a) exists or b) created the universe. And nothing is outside of the confines of time. Time is the be all, end all. Without it there is nothing. Including god.

Evolution in and of itself is no proof that the universe has at one point never existed. Notice before I said "in one form or another". Prior to the big bang or whatever triggered the formation of celestial bodies to create what we know as the universe, the universe still existed but in a form far from what we are familiar with. It is a common fallacy that there was "nothing" before the big bang. Ie. no time, no universe, no matter, nothing. That's wrong. The big bang includes that the universe existed before and was filled with matter. Time existed. The state of evolution that runs off the pace of the big bang therefore, your 'beginning of the universe', is no definitive marker of how long time or the universe has existed. Both could have certainly have existed together and forever just as god could have. I'm far more likely to believe the former if based on nothing other than pure statistical probability.

djoat

15-05-2005, 15:31

I'm far more likely to believe the former if based on nothing other than pure statistical probability.

I'm sure exploding some bricks, cement and wood together has a higher statistical probability of creating a mansion than the that of having a designer and contracter working together to form one.

Time is the be all, end all. Without it there is nothing. Including god.

Imagine something you can comprehend, and think from there. Imagine a character IN game that is actually alive, and this character thinks that without the uswest server, there is nothing, at all. Thats because everything in game exists on the server, the items, the monsters, the way you level. The character cannot imagine something without the server, just like you cannot imagine something before time. All he knows is the server. There is nothing else. The chacter thinks that without the server, there is nothing. (including blizzard programmers??) You think that without time, there is nothing. (including God.)

Stevinator

15-05-2005, 18:08

I'm sure exploding some bricks, cement and wood together has a higher statistical probability of creating a mansion than the that of having a designer and contracter working together to form one.

Clearly you have little understanding of evolution. Given the conditions on earth 4 billion years ago, it is very likely that those amino acids would have formed, and that life would have started on it's journey. 4 billion years is a long time, and it was only a mtter of time before that life became more complicated.

IT seems much more liekly to me that we evolved using the things we know exist than by something that just sounds pretty made up. How can you possibly say your god (or jesus or whatever) is the right one when there are so many different ideas about what this god thing is all about. don't you think that's pretty arrogant?

Imagine something you can comprehend, and think from there. Imagine a character IN game that is actually alive, and this character thinks that without the uswest server, there is nothing, at all. Thats because everything in game exists on the server, the items, the monsters, the way you level. The character cannot imagine something without the server, just like you cannot imagine something before time. All he knows is the server. There is nothing else. The chacter thinks that without the server, there is nothing. (including blizzard programmers??) You think that without time, there is nothing. (including God.)

so your argument is there is a god because I can't imagine it?

How about this. Aside from our existence--which could have come from god or from the current scientific theory, what reason do I have to bother believing in any god, much less yours?

none of the gods that people believe in today have any effect on my life at all.

So why believe in them? what advantage does altering my belief structure to yours mean for me? I can see lots of deteriments, as if I believe in god, I lose science, which has helped explain a lot about this world.

Is there any REAL advantage for me while here on this planet? because you haven't convinced me of the existence of heaven either.

It seems to me, science aids me greatly, and religion--any of them, not so much. belief in god certainly didn't bring me this laptop, or heck, even fire.

djoat

15-05-2005, 18:32

Clearly you have little understanding of evolution. Given the conditions on earth 4 billion years ago, it is very likely that those amino acids would have formed, and that life would have started on it's journey. 4 billion years is a long time, and it was only a mtter of time before that life became more complicated.

IT seems much more liekly to me that we evolved using the things we know exist than by something that just sounds pretty made up. How can you possibly say your god (or jesus or whatever) is the right one when there are so many different ideas about what this god thing is all about. don't you think that's pretty arrogant?

so your argument is there is a god because I can't imagine it?

How about this. Aside from our existence--which could have come from god or from the current scientific theory, what reason do I have to bother believing in any god, much less yours?

none of the gods that people believe in today have any effect on my life at all.

So why believe in them? what advantage does altering my belief structure to yours mean for me? I can see lots of deteriments, as if I believe in god, I lose science, which has helped explain a lot about this world.

Is there any REAL advantage for me while here on this planet? because you haven't convinced me of the existence of heaven either.

It seems to me, science aids me greatly, and religion--any of them, not so much. belief in god certainly didn't bring me this laptop, or heck, even fire.

1) lets explode the bricks and stuff for 4 billion years and see a nice mansion ok?

2) I was addressing the issue of imagining something outside time, nothing about imagining a God.

3) I'm not preaching about MY God, we're debating over whether there could be one.

4) We're also not talking about the advantages of believing.

kryo

15-05-2005, 19:56

On the topic of not being able to determine an origin of a "benevolent hyper-dimensional intelligence" (i.e., a god), a thought-provoking illustration is Asimov's The Last Question (linky (http://www.maddad.org/asimov01.htm)).

Because a god is by definition outside our space-time continuum, he could very well have originated in our future. But because he exists outside this "existence", he has simultaneous access to all of history, thus appearing to have always existed--with no means of proving otherwise, simply because he would exist outside any possible human frame of reference.

And nothing is outside of the confines of time. Time is the be all, end all.

On the contrary, it seems to be merely a part of this universe. Experiments testing general relativity have even shown that its rate of passage is fluid to some degree (or at least apparently so to an observer). If there are other universes, or if there have been other universes before this one, there is no way to tell if they had "time", or even anything resembling it. The problem is only that because we exist within time it is impossible for us to conceive how anything could operate outside it. The reasoning is not wholly unlike that of a two-dimensional creature attempting to comprehend a three-dimensional existence--the most that can ever be observed or affected is a tiny cross-section (in our case as relating to time, the present).

Anyhow, hyperspace and n-dimension theories are very interesting to try and wrap your brain around. The only trouble is that there as yet is no way of confriming or disconfirming their existence. Though I heard there are some upcoming experiments based on string theory, and if strings are shown to exist then things could get very interesting indeed :P

Moosashi

15-05-2005, 20:11

So what if God is needed to create the universe? If that's all he's good for, what's the sense in praying to him, loving him, hating him, avoiding sin, desiring an after life, etc.? If I am to believe God has his hand in human morality, then I need to see more evidence of an active role.

kryo

15-05-2005, 20:20

Moosashi

15-05-2005, 20:32

That part is between you and your religion (or lack thereof) :p
My mind is made up, but I think many religious people have not considered the ramifications of logically justifying the existence of God. If you have faith only because you believe God must exist for the universe to exist, then you should really consider why you buy into the rest of whatever your religion teaches about the nature of the universe, man and morality. If you must have a rational basis for your belief in God, shouldn't you also have rational basis for your belief in everything else? It also follows that it would be unfair to use the argument that God must have created the universe to try to convince someone that, say, Jesus Christ died for their sins.

Tor

15-05-2005, 20:50

"Christians don't believe in gravity" sums it up nicely

DanteAlastor

15-05-2005, 21:28

STOP STOP STOP STOP THIS MIND BOGGLING THAT PUZZLED MANKIND FOR SO COUNTLESS CENTURIES!

im sorry i brought this topic up about God.
I conclude that there is NO SCIENTIFIC OR MATH FORMULAS to PROOVE OR DISPROOVE the existance of God. it is an endless battle. both sides of the argument have good points... It is only through the sacred texts(aka Bible, torah. qo ran. or other sacred texts) in which humans may or may not choose not to believe in God. its up to an individual to decide to believe or not to believe .before some nutjob over zealot (atheist or theist) force his beliefs on to us and create a new cult in this forum, this topic has got to stop.
..(i for one chose to believe and keep the faith and i will not preach or force my belief in you. I can only give you my reason to believe in God SEE FIRST CAUSE. if u dont believe in first cause then its no use to re-explain it again)

FREET I BEG YOU TO CLOSE THIS THREAD! im sorry. :(

if Freet chose not to close this thread then can we discuss something MORE RELEVANT TO CONTEMPORARY HUMAN LIFE?

lets move on to a new topic.
What is the purpose of mankind within this universe? Does mankind determine the purpose/destiny? why are we here?

b4 i end this short essay i gotta say gg to everyone presenting both sides of the argument. and kept ad-homonims to the minimum

CyberHawk

15-05-2005, 21:49

FREET I BEG YOU TO CLOSE THIS THREAD! im sorry. :(

You have nooo idea.. :evil:

Some call it an hornet's nest.

DanteAlastor

15-05-2005, 21:57

You have nooo idea.. :evil:

Some call it an hornet's nest.

you lost my train of thought what are u saying?

i dont know the idiom, hornet's nest, plz explain? :)

Namyeknom

16-05-2005, 00:33

I respect anyone who believes moving the topic from 'Does God exist?' to 'Does man have a destiny?' will in anyway make things less mind boggling.

It won't, but I respect you all the same...

Cloud_Walker

16-05-2005, 01:19

Interesting thread. I'm almost sorry I've been busy this weekend. Almost.

Does God Exist/what is God?

I am most accurately described as an agnostic atheist, which means: I don't know, neither do you, and therefore I see no reason to believe. Faith is irrational.

For your first cause "transmission of heat/electricity," check here. (http://mwillett.org/atheism/classic.htm)

Does Hell exist?

The question is of no importance to me. See above.

Do we have "Freedom?

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking.

Euthenasia good or bad?

Depends on the person in question.

is pornography immoral?

I see no reason why it should be.

Do humans have free will?

Impossible to tell.

is abortion moral?

Depends on the situation, but generally no.

is *** marriage immoral?

I see no reason why it should be.

What is the fate of mankind?

Eventually death.

Is there a Possibility that life only exist on Earth?

Someone already adequately answered this one. Yes, it is a possibility.

or Life exist other than earth?

Yes, it is a possibility.

Why Terrorist attacks America?(religious beliefs/intervention(s) of America to the affair(s) to other countries?)

Probably some of each and maybe other reasons.

djoat

16-05-2005, 05:02

What is the purpose of mankind within this universe? Does mankind determine the purpose/destiny? why are we here?

The purpose of man lies in why we are here, and will just go back to the question of "Does God exist?"

@cloud_walker:
Faith is belief, whatever that might be. If you believe there is no God, that is faith too. If you believe you will forever love your girlfriend, that is faith too. If you believe in anything, that is faith. Everyone has faith in some form or other.

llad12

16-05-2005, 06:30

lets move on to a new topic.
What is the purpose of mankind within this universe? Does mankind determine the purpose/destiny? why are we here?

To serve God? :p

--------------

Seriously, those are eternal questions on par with "Does God Exist?"

The answers you receive will probably be as varied as the people typing them.

CyberHawk

16-05-2005, 12:30

you lost my train of thought what are u saying?

i dont know the idiom, hornet's nest, plz explain? :)

*picks up the train and hands it back to Dante*

You beg for closure after wanted a discussion..and start with religion? Ya you were asking for a beat down by our fellow OTF members. Now I say hornets nest. See when you stir up a hornets nest..you will usually beg to change that action as well.
If you really don't know what a hornet's nest is..and what happens when you get one all stirred up. Then you were not prepared to discuss in such a grand ole' topic. You'd better bring yer guns for a religion topic.

My 2 cents on this thread so far.

Yes I believe in God..and I dont have to prove that to anyone else. Someone asking me to prove that he exist have only wasted their breath, and should expect no answer worth a damn in return. Will prob be along the lines of "yer momma told me so". ;)

DrunkCajun

16-05-2005, 14:06

Yes I believe in God..and I dont have to prove that to anyone else. Someone asking me to prove that he exist have only wasted their breath, and should expect no answer worth a damn in return.

Frankly, CyberHawk, I find that to be one of the most refreshing views on religion I've seen in a while. As a wavering Christian myself, every time someone tries to shove belief down my throat it makes me want to run that much further from it for fear of being associated with that sort of people. Why can't more people feel like you and not feel the need to personally convert every other person out there?

MixedVariety

16-05-2005, 14:20

Frankly, CyberHawk, I find that to be one of the most refreshing views on religion I've seen in a while. As a wavering Christian myself, every time someone tries to shove belief down my throat it makes me want to run that much further from it for fear of being associated with that sort of people. Why can't more people feel like you and not feel the need to personally convert every other person out there?

To answer your question, DC, there are plenty of people out here who feel like Cyber about religion and/or other topics. You just don't know about us because we generally are keeping our opinions to ourselves, or at least not trying to uselessly convert others to our viewpoint.

Nicely put, Cyber.

Garbad_the_Weak

16-05-2005, 14:53

Exactly.

Not everyone wants to debate/convert the world. On lots of areas, not just religion. This is why we have 1231231`23523455 lurkers for each poster :)

Garbad

Killerama

17-05-2005, 03:36

Does God Exist/what is God?

Does Hell exist?

What is the fate of mankind?

Is there a Possibility that life only exist on Earth? or Life exist other than earth?

I belive that God does not exist, I belive humans created the idea of God to answer some questions to which we couldn't explain during that time. I think that it is ridiculous that one being, who knows where, created everything.

I belive that humans created the idea of hell to scare people.

The fate of mankind is: death. I just don't see mankind living in the future. My guess is that viruses/bacteria will kill us all, in time.

The Universe is unknown, but I do belive in life on other planets, it might not be the aliens that we see in movies or TV, but there is life somewhere else in the universe.

Cloud_Walker

17-05-2005, 03:46

@cloud_walker:
Faith is belief, whatever that might be. If you believe there is no God, that is faith too. If you believe you will forever love your girlfriend, that is faith too. If you believe in anything, that is faith. Everyone has faith in some form or other.

By applying it to everything, you just made the word completely meaningless. It is belief without reason or evidence.

Also, it is important to note the difference between belief in absence and absence of belief.

djoat

17-05-2005, 09:49

By applying it to everything, you just made the word completely meaningless. It is belief without reason or evidence.

Also, it is important to note the difference between belief in absence and absence of belief.

I didn't say everything. I said in "some form or other". Ok?

FrozenSolid

17-05-2005, 14:36

Maybe, perhaps, could be, something, possibilities, assumptions yada yada yada...

Cmon, summer is here :cool:

Kawaii

17-05-2005, 16:30

IF, and that is one large effin' IF, God would exist, why should he care about us? Maybe he just created the universe and decided to sit back and watch what would happen. Why should the daily "lives" of carbon-based "life"(the definition of which can be debated endlessly) forms concern him? Maybe he doesn't interfere because he has no reason to... Maybe he simply doesn't care.

Maybe he is just a silent observer.

//my $0.02

DanteAlastor

17-05-2005, 20:38

Questionaires
1)Does God Exist YES/NO (skip 2 if answered NO)
2)Does God Intervene YES/NO
3)What Created the Universe? (open ended)
4)What is Soul?
5)Do Humans Have Soul? YES/NO
6)(skip this question if your atheist)If You have the powers of God, what would u do to the unbelievers?
7)(skip this question if your theist)If your the most brilliant scientist who has proven God Doesnt exist what would u say to the faithful believers?
8)What is your Ontological belief of (God, spirit/ghost, evil spirit, Devil/Demon, Heaven, Hell, Aliens, Other Existance of life other than earth, Universe/Multiverses?)
9)State why u believe or why u answered the questions in certain way.
10)is it possible to have a type 1 or type 2 error? why or why not?
TYPE1 = a person rejects the existance of God...But He Actually Exist.
TYPE2 = a person doesnt reject God or believe in God... But God Doesnt exist

Cloud_Walker

18-05-2005, 07:17

1)Does God Exist

I don't know.

3)What Created the Universe?

The Universe was not created.

4)What is Soul?

Another word for mind; that which does all explaining, and therefore itself is unexplainable.

5)Do Humans Have Soul?

Yes - see above.

8)What is your Ontological belief of:

God

Doesn't exist.

spirit/ghost, evil spirit, Devil/Demon

Unnecessary entities.

Heaven, Hell

Thoughts on death. Baseless.

Aliens, Other Existance of life other than earth

Large bet that they exist.

Universe

Exists.

/Multiverses?

Unnecessary speculation.

9)State why u believe or why u answered the questions in certain way.

I find it most effective?

10)is it possible to have a type 1 or type 2 error? why or why not?
TYPE1 = a person rejects the existance of God...But He Actually Exist.
TYPE2 = a person doesnt reject God or believe in God... But God Doesnt exist

Since there exists each type of person, one must be wrong. If one can be wrong, so can the other. So, both types of errors are possible.

llad12

18-05-2005, 07:37

1)Does God Exist?

Not sure

2)Does God Intervene?

Who really knows?

3)What Created the Universe?

Good question

4)What is Soul?

Another good question ... some might say a form of music

5)Do Humans Have Soul?

Ask James Brown

Seriously speaking: maybe or maybe not ... depends ... sometimes I think ya but then ... hell I don't know

6)(skip this question if your atheist)If You have the powers of God, what would u do to the unbelievers?

Smite them?

7)(skip this question if your theist)If your the most brilliant scientist who has proven God Doesnt exist what would u say to the faithful believers?

It would never happen. Science doesn't go there.

8)What is your Ontological belief of (God, spirit/ghost, evil spirit, Devil/Demon, Heaven, Hell, Aliens, Other Existance of life other than earth?)

No one really knows for sure about any of the above.

9)State why u believe or why u answered the questions in certain way.

I am a half-*** positive agnostic. It may not be the most satisfying position, but few can attack you philosophically :p

Damnatorius

18-05-2005, 10:54

1)Does God Exist YES/NO (skip 2 if answered NO)

I hope not

2)Does God Intervene YES/NO

He should (in a positive way)

3)What Created the Universe? (open ended)

who cares?

4)What is Soul?

a thing some people say a human has that is seperate from its body

5)Do Humans Have Soul? YES/NO

depends on what you believe, I dunno, is it important?

6)(skip this question if your atheist)If You have the powers of God, what would u do to the unbelievers?

make them all believe instead of trying to persuade them (not by force, but by divine power or w/e i's called, just turn on the switch in their brain telling em to believe)

7)(skip this question if your theist)If your the most brilliant scientist who has proven God Doesnt exist what would u say to the faithful believers?

it can't be proven, it's a matter of belief

8)What is your Ontological belief of (God, spirit/ghost, evil spirit, Devil/Demon, Heaven, Hell, Aliens, Other Existance of life other than earth, Universe/Multiverses?)

Believing in them will make life unnecesarily complex, more so than it is already.

9)State why u believe or why u answered the questions in certain way.

because that's how I think

10)is it possible to have a type 1 or type 2 error? why or why not?
TYPE1 = a person rejects the existance of God...But He Actually Exist.
TYPE2 = a person doesnt reject God or believe in God... But God Doesnt exist

well, one of them is wrong, we'll never know, unless God decided to show himself