Synergies from Charges

[Thirty-Thirty]

Ahoy,

I recall seeing a Pat post of a bonemage, and one of the questions that popped up was whether or not he'd exploited the Marrowwalk "bug".

Now, if I'm not mistaken, all charges give and get synergies as if they were real skills, as long as you haven't put any real points into that skill. My question is, is this really a bug? Has Blizzard said so? Do we frown upon it?

Acknowledged, it does make certain builds ridiculous, particulary in the Marrowwalk case, since thats a level 33 synergy: otherwise impossible. On the other hand, it does make certain builds possible: remember the Fireball Templar who uses Moonfall and a Ring of Firebolt? And hybrid rabid wolves using the Wisp Projector? And decent dual elemental druids with Stone?

And while on the subject, are there any other interesting builds that exploit charge synergies? Can you think of any? There aren't likely to be many, but they could be interesting anyway.

Cheers,
30-30

[DeathMaster]

Ahoy,

I recall seeing a Pat post of a bonemage, and one of the questions that popped up was whether or not he'd exploited the Marrowwalk "bug".

Now, if I'm not mistaken, all charges give and get synergies as if they were real skills, as long as you haven't put any real points into that skill. My question is, is this really a bug? Has Blizzard said so? Do we frown upon it?

Acknowledged, it does make certain builds ridiculous, particulary in the Marrowwalk case, since thats a level 33 synergy: otherwise impossible. On the other hand, it does make certain builds possible: remember the Fireball Templar who uses Moonfall and a Ring of Firebolt? And hybrid rabid wolves using the Wisp Projector? And decent dual elemental druids with Stone?

And while on the subject, are there any other interesting builds that exploit charge synergies? Can you think of any? There aren't likely to be many, but they could be interesting anyway.

Cheers,
30-30

You already know the poplur build.

I believe it was a bug, however, blizzard didn't feel to fix it, and they like it that way. Just like they liked the way how concentrate increase hammerdin damage. If you want proof, just look b.net, if it is a bug, they would fix it already by now. But, they instead released new runeword just for it. They like it.

[tenaka]

@Thirty-Thirty: The general SPF consensus is that it is acceptable to use this bug, though there are some people who disagree

@DeathMaster: I think thats pretty faulty logic. There can be countless reasons they havent fixed it. Perhaps they don't know how without breaking or completely rewriting how synergies work. Perhaps it would just take more time (and therefore money) than they care to spend on a game that has already sold most of the copies it will sell. Perhaps they are fixing it and just aren't done yet. Also, they could have very easily already decided on those new runewords beforehand and just not changed them. For me the glaring issue that tells me it is a bug is that it only works if you put 0 pts in the skill. If it worked the same either way I could see it being a feature but benefitting from NOT spending a skill point is an obvious bug.

[frosty]

Ahoy,

I recall seeing a Pat post of a bonemage, and one of the questions that popped up was whether or not he'd exploited the Marrowwalk "bug".

Now, if I'm not mistaken, all charges give and get synergies as if they were real skills, as long as you haven't put any real points into that skill. My question is, is this really a bug? Has Blizzard said so? Do we frown upon it?

Acknowledged, it does make certain builds ridiculous, particulary in the Marrowwalk case, since thats a level 33 synergy: otherwise impossible. On the other hand, it does make certain builds possible: remember the Fireball Templar who uses Moonfall and a Ring of Firebolt? And hybrid rabid wolves using the Wisp Projector? And decent dual elemental druids with Stone?

And while on the subject, are there any other interesting builds that exploit charge synergies? Can you think of any? There aren't likely to be many, but they could be interesting anyway.

Cheers,
30-30

That must be me. :o

Carrion wind for Rabid druids
Stone for Fireclaw Wereforms.
Metalgrid + Stone for uber lumpy.

The bug/feature/whatever is allowed in PvM but slightly cheesy (I know, but I like cheese. :p) but I think it is a no-no for PvP.

No idea on whether it is a bug or a feature. Not that I cared much about it anyway. :p

@Uzziah: Thought so. I got mixed up over the golems. :o

[Uzziah]

You can also include well built mastery sorceress, summoner barbs, summoner paladins (though they are much weaker than their barb brothers), poison daggermancers and magibarbs.

I have 2 threads on this subject one is a debate on whether this is a bug and the second is on what builds can be made with it. Just check my threads posted you can find them pretty easily if your interested.

Edit @frosty bloodmoon and stone for uber gumby, iron golem charges for the clay golem are pretty much worthless, 100 defense compared to 200 and some defense really means nothing in hell, the life bonus to 3005 life for the gumby is much better.

[Chimaira]

I think the charge synergy is a bug...but a useful one. I think it adds quite a lot to the game, and even the Marrowwalk bug isn't überpowerful, since Bone doesn't do insane damage to start with (except for PvP, but Diablo II is a PvM game so go figure). I think it's very cool, and see zero reason to frown upon it...if it's in the game use it.

[NeckRomancer]

You already know the poplur build.

I believe it was a bug, however, blizzard didn't feel to fix it, and they like it that way. Just like they liked the way how concentrate increase hammerdin damage. If you want proof, just look b.net, if it is a bug, they would fix it already by now. But, they instead released new runeword just for it. They like it.

Hmmm...what rune word is this DM? :)

Anyway, just my $0.02: the Hammerdin bug was discovered way back in D2 classic. It was fixed in 1.04 IIRC, restored in 1.05 after much protests from players (since the Hammerdin was and remains the most viable Paladin build)and enhanced in 1.10. In 1.05 I think, the Conc effect was reduced by 50% (as it is currently). I think it's no longer viewed by Blizz as a bug; otherwise, they would not have provided the damage enhancement for 1.10.

The excessive damage of hammers may be seen as an imbalance though and may be nerfed in a future patch. That is only my opinion.

However, Blizz from my experience usually lets 'acceptable' or 'tolerable' bugs linger, even something as hazardous as the FE bug. Releasing a patch seems to take a heavy toll on Blizzard, what with development and quality control requirements. With D2 several years old, any enhancements on it are most likely extremely low in Blizzard's priority list. So I believe inaction on Blizzard's part on these bugs doesn't mean these bugs are accepted. It may just be that they don't think it's really that big a deal that they have to fix it.

[NSXdreamer]

Blizzard's standard of tolerance is just so weird, which lead me to really think they liked the synergy bug just like how they eventually adopted the concentration bug. I mean it took them a grand total of 3 days to fix the grinding bug since its discovery, that's what I call swift action. But the synergy bug as been known since what, 1.10a? Yet they never did anything about it.

[Thrugg]

I'm not sure how much large-project coding you guys have done before, but all bugs are not created equal.

The synergy bug is fairly involved. It is not a missing < sign or something, like the Grinding bug and the Andy bug. They are storing skills provided by charged items in the same structure as they store the class skills (which you can see if you hit 'S' while playing, your skills from appear there alongside your regular skills). To fix this bug properly they'd have to store that information somewhere else. "Somewhere else" needs to be visible to the user interface (as your skills are displayed there when you hit 'S'). You interface is managed in your client code. Changes to the client code require a full patch, and all the testing that entails.

I imagine it will be fixed if there is ever a 1.11.

It definitely is a bug though, by any definition of the word. If you use it, you are exploiting a bug, just like if you are running Andy. Which is of course entirely up to you, but some people disapprove of it.

[skoolbus]

This is straight from blizzard. (http://www.blizzard.com/support/?id=mdt0763p#Enhancements)



Enhancements and other changes
...
-Added synergy bonuses to many skills. The bonuses boost the effectiveness of the higher-level skills based upon the number of points allocated to the lower-level (synergizing) skills. Players are rewarded for using skill points earlier rather than hoarding them all for later 'cookie-cutter' distribution to high-level skills.
...

This isn't a bug, rather a new part of the game, same as Atma healing you and resists from antidote potions. I'm tired of everyone going around whining if you use the " synergy bug"

[Mankey]

I'm not sure how much large-project coding you guys have done before, but all bugs are not created equal.

The synergy bug is fairly involved. It is not a missing < sign or something, like the Grinding bug and the Andy bug. They are storing skills provided by charged items in the same structure as they store the class skills (which you can see if you hit 'S' while playing, your skills from appear there alongside your regular skills). To fix this bug properly they'd have to store that information somewhere else. "Somewhere else" needs to be visible to the user interface (as your skills are displayed there when you hit 'S'). You interface is managed in your client code. Changes to the client code require a full patch, and all the testing that entails.

I imagine it will be fixed if there is ever a 1.11.

It definitely is a bug though, by any definition of the word. If you use it, you are exploiting a bug, just like if you are running Andy. Which is of course entirely up to you, but some people disapprove of it.

I'll agree with 99% of this. Running Andy you don't HAVE to exploit the bug... Just quit after beating her the first time and no bug right? Like anything else we are confronted with its a choice. Although the andy bug is somthing a new player could have been exploiting without knowing it. Just because, the synergy bug requires thought process to make it work.

[Howitzer Al]

This is straight from blizzard. (http://www.blizzard.com/support/?id=mdt0763p#Enhancements)
This isn't a bug, rather a new part of the game, same as Atma healing you and resists from antidote potions. I'm tired of everyone going around whining if you use the " synergy bug"

Actually, the passage you quoted is just talking about synergies. It's not talking about the synergy bug. 30-30 gave a good decription of the bug in his original post.

[Gohanman]

skoolbus, I'd say the particular quote really disproves your point. Synergies on the number of "points allocated to lower-level (synergizing) skills". Charges are not "points allocated to skills" at all.

Personally, I see two distinct possiblities: a) charge synergizes are an unintended bug or b) charge synergizes were intended but the people designing new items weren't properly considering the consequences of high level charges. Looking at the new runewords, for instance, Bliz not entirely understanding "game balance" seems like par for the course. That's what makes me lean towards the latter option. It's not like there aren't already exceptions built into how synergizes are applied (Druid summons, for instance).

[skoolbus]

argh, I posted the wrong thing, give me a few minutes to post the right thing

[Fafner]

Items that grant skills bestow a lower skill level to those character classes who natively have the skill in their skill tree. Note that Charged items receive synergy and mastery bonuses, but don't receive bonuses by assigning extra points to the skill.

Did I beat him?

[Fafner]

-edit crud- double double post...sorry I promise to be more careful with mouse button.

[Fafner]

_stupid double post- sorry

[skoolbus]

ok, from the same website and still under the "Enhancements" section...



-The Buriza's level (not its level requirement) was increased to 59.
-Items that grant skills bestow a lower skill level to those character classes who natively have the skill in their skill tree. Note that Charged items receive synergy and mastery bonuses, but don't receive bonuses by assigning extra points to the skill.
-Boosted the Cham Rune freeze effect on weapons from +1 to +3.

[Fafner]

Skoolbus =pwnd

Fafner = spammer

I'm glad about this. I liked fury/rabies cheese and now I can spend those saved points in Teeth for my bonemancer.

[PyroStock]

Marrowwalk bug doesn't just improve BoneSpear and BoneSpirit damage. My Necromancer doesn't use those skills, but has 1pt in BoneArmor and 1pt in a synergy (Teeth). Marrowwalk changes his BoneArmor from 60 to 575... in Hardcore that's huge. If I put 1pt in BoneWall it's a frail nanosecond decoy until destroyed, Marrowwalk gives it over 2300 life making it far more useful. Not to mention the L33BonePrison itself. Saving yourself 33 skill points and getting all these protective/offensive bonuses I call uberpowerful, but that's me.

Nevertheless I sincerely doubt Blizzard will ever do anything to fix it or Hammerdin damage or the Charge bug or Inferno/Arctic bug, etc. etc. Especially fix any of these for SP by releasing a 1.11patch. And it's not like a bug you have to go out of the way to do as a new player could find the boots and unknowingly get the synergy bug. Same with running Andy. It's better to just play the game and accept it as an uberpowerful cheesy item (recall the Buriza was/is seen as cheesy, but not a bug) that won't go away rather than for people to get on high horses and decree what others can and cannot wear/use.

[Derrick1001]

I patted a bonemancer earlier in the week. I used Marrowwalks, and I regret nothing :) .

I considered it a bug until I read this thread, apparently it isn't. Bonus.

Basically, my justification was that there are bugs in the game certainly working against me (we all know the FE bug). If I deal with that on the game's terms without fixing it, I can deal with everything the game gives me.

[sunbearie]

bug aside, its really useful for some builds. Some minor additional charges would be

Firebolt charges on rings for fire templars
Bonespirit charges on circlets for bone spear.

The "bug" I'm more interested in is how charges actually synergise % chance to cast as well, (eg.lightning charges synergises ctc chain lightning)
Brings up a whole new world of builds to add to the gaming experience.

[Thrugg]

-Items that grant skills bestow a lower skill level to those character classes who natively have the skill in their skill tree. Note that Charged items receive synergy and mastery bonuses, but don't receive bonuses by assigning extra points to the skill.

Actually reading this passage will illustrate that it is of no use to any argument that the bug is intentional. It says:

"Charged items receive synergy... bonuses"

and not (as you seem to be misinterpreting it as)

"Charged items provide synergy... bonuses"

All skills are supposed to receive synergy from skills you have put hard points into. Nothing except those hard points is supposed to provide synergy.

[bill_n_opus]

Marrowalk is overpowered ... and i'm a summoner by heart.

Almost 600 point bone armor from basically nothing? Anyone want an extra ~ 600 HP? This huge in softcore not even touching on hardcore. Saves you from potential trouble and death ... and it's recastable! Plus the other benefits ... I love these boots.

Just the experience points saved from dying in Hell mode and the uber hassle of having to retrieve your corspe to get most of that XP back makes Marrowalks the boots for me. If it's in the game I have, for the most part, no problem using it.

[necrolemming]

Hmmm...what rune word is this DM? :)
Wind
2 Socket Melee Weapons
Sur + El
10% Chance To Cast Level 9 Tornado On Striking
+20% Faster Run/Walk
+40% Increased Attack Speed
+15% Faster Hit Recovery
+120-160% Enhanced Damage (varies)
-50% Target Defense
+53 To Attack Rating
Hit Blinds Target
+1 To Light Radius
Level 13 Twister (127 Charges)

[Derrick1001]

bug aside, its really useful for some builds. Some minor additional charges would be

Firebolt charges on rings for fire templars
Bonespirit charges on circlets for bone spear.

The "bug" I'm more interested in is how charges actually synergise % chance to cast as well, (eg.lightning charges synergises ctc chain lightning)
Brings up a whole new world of builds to add to the gaming experience.

I'm sorry, what do you mean?

Do you mean if, like wind above, ctc Level 9 Tornado will put 9 points of synergy for Tornado if you don't have any hard points in it?

Or do you mean something else?

[shermo]

I'm sorry, what do you mean?

Do you mean if, like wind above, ctc Level 9 Tornado will put 9 points of synergy for Tornado if you don't have any hard points in it?

Or do you mean something else?

I think that what he's saying is that the tornados that are cast will be synergized by the twister charges. Charges of a skill synergize - I think this works on ctc spells.

[Cormallon]

I read this thread and the others (especially that vote thread) with increasing curiosity. What's going on here... We all restrict ourselves to playing the game 'as is'. We are against mods that 'fix' bugs, even those that Blizzard declared as bug (like the FE one). I can' understand why people say the syngergy thing 'is clearly a bug because it relies on not spending points somewhere'. We all don't know what people at Blizzard think (or better thought at the time they introduced synergies). Even after this long debate and watching people using such synergies on bnet Blizzard did not declare this as bug. Even if they did, we have to play the game as is. Synergies work to our favor, the FE bug is against us. Why should we accept the latter and not the synergies?

EDIT: I forgot one more point: A lot of people here use items from earlier versions or the beta, because these have better stats. These items were obviously 'fixed' by blizzard because they thought these stats were wrong / too powerful / whatever. If we are against using synergies, we should start banning the usage of such items in 1.10 as well, because these GOT fixed. Such a ban would be nonsense imho. People, lets please just use what we have and let blizzard change what they think necessary ... or not necessary.

[DeathMaster]

I read this thread and the others (especially that vote thread) with increasing curiosity. What's going on here... We all restrict ourselves to playing the game 'as is'. We are against mods that 'fix' bugs, even those that Blizzard declared as bug (like the FE one). I can' understand why people say the syngergy thing 'is clearly a bug because it relies on not spending points somewhere'. We all don't know what people at Blizzard think (or better thought at the time they introduced synergies). Even after this long debate and watching people using such synergies on bnet Blizzard did not declare this as bug. Even if they did, we have to play the game as is. Synergies work to our favor, the FE bug is against us. Why should we accept the latter and not the synergies?

EDIT: I forgot one more point: A lot of people here use items from earlier versions or the beta, because these have better stats. These items were obviously 'fixed' by blizzard because they thought these stats were wrong / too powerful / whatever. If we are against using synergies, we should start banning the usage of such items in 1.10 as well, because these GOT fixed. Such a ban would be nonsense imho. People, lets please just use what we have and let blizzard change what they think necessary ... or not necessary.

That was I have been saying in other threads. We take the game as "it is". So we take both the bad and the good. In PvP, there are many more issues than synergies. but why bash PvM?

A lot of people seem thinking that we do not deserve good thing, odd. it is not like cheat/hack the game, we have clear policy for that. there is nothing unlegit to play as it is.

[Thirty-Thirty]

If you use it, you are exploiting a bug, just like if you are running Andy.A n00b question, and a bit off topic, but what exactly is the Andy bug?

[Mankey]

I read this thread and the others (especially that vote thread) with increasing curiosity. What's going on here... We all restrict ourselves to playing the game 'as is'. We are against mods that 'fix' bugs, even those that Blizzard declared as bug (like the FE one). I can' understand why people say the syngergy thing 'is clearly a bug because it relies on not spending points somewhere'. We all don't know what people at Blizzard think (or better thought at the time they introduced synergies). Even after this long debate and watching people using such synergies on bnet Blizzard did not declare this as bug. Even if they did, we have to play the game as is. Synergies work to our favor, the FE bug is against us. Why should we accept the latter and not the synergies?

EDIT: I forgot one more point: A lot of people here use items from earlier versions or the beta, because these have better stats. These items were obviously 'fixed' by blizzard because they thought these stats were wrong / too powerful / whatever. If we are against using synergies, we should start banning the usage of such items in 1.10 as well, because these GOT fixed. Such a ban would be nonsense imho. People, lets please just use what we have and let blizzard change what they think necessary ... or not necessary.

Actually I do frown on using 1.10 beta items in general. Since I don't own any I enjoy the game as is. SPL. And this discussion is really moot point now, the synergy bug is just that. A bug. Can it be exploited as is? Yes. Should you? Well thats for you to decide. I choose not to.

Lets go back in the day to diablo 1 and let us ponder the fact that with the game "as is" you could dupe. Its just a choice. Make yours.

@Thirty-Thirty- The andy bug is what happens after you kill andy for the first time and leave to act 2 in the same game (the logical thing to do), Doing this will make her drop as a first drop all the time, which as we all know gives us MUCH better odds on items she can drop. To NOT activate the bug simply save and quit before going to act to. Upon rejoining go ahead as you normaly would and the bug has been averted.

[DeathMaster]

Actually I do frown on using 1.10 beta items in general. Since I don't own any I enjoy the game as is. SPL. And this discussion is really moot point now, the synergy bug is just that. A bug. Can it be exploited as is? Yes. Should you? Well thats for you to decide. I choose not to.

Lets go back in the day to diablo 1 and let us ponder the fact that with the game "as is" you could dupe. Its just a choice. Make yours.

I never really played D1, but I have heard that you need to do something unusual in order to dupe (heard the term gold dupe, don't know if you can dupe else or not). I don't think it is a fair compare here.

[sunbearie]

I'm sorry, what do you mean?

Do you mean if, like wind above, ctc Level 9 Tornado will put 9 points of synergy for Tornado if you don't have any hard points in it?

Or do you mean something else?

As shermo said, charges of a skill synergise chance to cast skills but not vice versa.

Eg.
lavagout wuth ctc firestorm is synergised by the MB charges from "stone"
Horizon's tornado is synergised by twister charges from "carrion wind"

[Gargame]

I never really played D1, but I have heard that you need to do something unusual in order to dupe (heard the term gold dupe, don't know if you can dupe else or not). I don't think it is a fair compare here.

It doesn't take anything special to dupe in D1. It's been a while since I played it, but you can dupe more than gold. You would drop what you want duped on the ground, back away from it. You walk up to it, clicking to pick it up. Right as you are about to pick it up, you open your inventory. If the timing is right, then you have the item in your inventory, and in your hand. Again, it's been a while, it may be a little different than that.

[Fafner]

Actually reading this passage will illustrate that it is of no use to any argument that the bug is intentional. It says:

"Charged items receive synergy... bonuses"

and not (as you seem to be misinterpreting it as)

"Charged items provide synergy... bonuses"

All skills are supposed to receive synergy from skills you have put hard points into. Nothing except those hard points is supposed to provide synergy.

If they can receive, then they can give as well. At least that's how hard points seem to work. Basically your right (as usual). I guess we can't really know either way. Let's call it a draw.

Now we can argue about something more resolvable like free will and divine will.

[Mankey]

If they can receive, then they can give as well. At least that's how hard points seem to work. Basically your right (as usual). I guess we can't really know either way. Let's call it a draw.

Now we can argue about something more resolvable like free will and divine will.

Well if Thrugg is right, than you can't call it a draw now can you? :lol:

Anyways I stand by what I said earlier.... Is it ok? thats a personal decision... As a community is it accepted. By a vast majority yes. Does that still make it right? Not neccesarily. (Hittler anyone?... The nazi's all followed one rule... still doesn't make it right)

And with that I'll leave this thread before the debate gets any more heated :S

[sunbearie]

Walking away from the original topic, how do people see the effect of charges synergising ctc of skills? It is frowned on in the same way?

There's are enchantress who use the lavagouts/stone "effect", zealots with the tornado/carrion wind effect, lightning/chainlighting etc