Grief Zerk vs Eth BOTD Zerk on BVC WW barb, Which would you use?

[Gotcha]

Ok, I have a question which some people on ladder may be able to help me out with.

Do I use Grief Zerk or Eth BOTD?

I have tested both weapons on my 19k def Pally and the only damage diff after PVP penalty is that the Grief does about 280 more damage on ave. when the WW connects per WW. If I choose Grief I will need to invest at least 19 points into Dex instead of all vita to use the Zerk axes and be flexible with rings. That means 76 less life before prebuff and less mana, less mana leach, and less AR due to the huge +30 all stats on the BOTD. Has anyone else really tested these two weapons on ladder yet? If so what are your findings. Also any feedback would be greatly appreciated since I want to tweek this barb to the fullest (BVC WW barb)?

[mcm]

I have tested both weapons on my 19k def Pally and the only damage diff after PVP penalty is that the Grief does about 280 more damage on ave. when the WW connects per WW. If I choose Grief I will need to invest at least 19 points into Dex instead of all vita to use the Zerk axes and be flexible with rings. That means 76 less life before prebuff and less mana, less mana leach, and less AR due to the huge +30 all stats on the BOTD. Has anyone else really tested these two weapons on ladder yet? If so what are your findings. Also any feedback would be greatly appreciated since I want to tweek this barb to the fullest (BVC WW barb)?

280 pvp damage more on average is *significant*

More significant than 76 base and 120 more final life (+vita is not affected by BO)
More significant than 30 more final mana.
More significant than the negligible AR boost from 30 dex.

[Gotcha]

280 pvp damage more on average is *significant*

More significant than 76 base and 120 more final life (+vita is not affected by BO)
More significant than 30 more final mana.
More significant than the negligible AR boost from 30 dex.

Ya as I test it more it seems even more important than I thought, especially on lower def pvp's.

Now I am wondering if I really need beast zerker or If I should test the diff from using grief/botd or grief/beast. I am wondering what the actual % to damage is on grief with beast and fant aura since I am not sure it woorks with the +400 where I think it only works with the base and % on weapon. The AR at the lower lvl's with BVC is only like 1000 diff like from 7000+ with Grief and BOTD compared to the 8000+ from Grief and Beast. With a normal all around WW barb the beast may add more to the AR bonus then it does at the lower levels and the loss of the 25% OW would probably not be worth the consideration yet for the PVC barb the damage diff and loosing 25% OW (going from 60 to 35%) may be worth the trade off. In PVM Grief/BOTD just rules compared to the Grief/Beast.

[mcm]

Now I am wondering if I really need beast zerker or If I should test the diff from using grief/botd or grief/beast. I am wondering what the actual % to damage is on grief with beast and fant aura since I am not sure it woorks with the +400 where I think it only works with the base and % on weapon. The AR at the lower lvl's with BVC is only like 1000 diff like from 7000+ with Grief and BOTD compared to the 8000+ from Grief and Beast. With a normal all around WW barb the beast may add more to the AR bonus then it does at the lower levels and the loss of the 25% OW would probably not be worth the consideration yet for the PVC barb the damage diff and loosing 25% OW (going from 60 to 35%) may be worth the trade off. In PVM Grief/BOTD just rules compared to the Grief/Beast.

All ED% bonuses (fanat counts as a skill) apply to the +400 damage. For a barb, just consider the +Damage as + to base weapon damage.

Fanat's damage bonus is considerable when paired with a primary weapon that has huge average damage. Beast also has a big STR boost (bigger than EBOTD) and good crushing blow and open wounds in addition.

Here are some basic numbers, base str is an example, excludes OW, CB, and Grief's VENOM. For BVC, the cumulative totals up to frame 12 are most important.

415% EBOTD Zerker & 270% BEAST
==============================

Weapon 1 Damage: 185 - 662 (inc charms)
Weapon 2 Damage: 88 - 379 (inc charms)

STR: 224
Skill: 158% + 174% = 332%
Fanat: 186%
Items: 39%

Total ED: 781%

DS: 50%
CS: 22%

Chance of CS/DS: 61%

Final 1 Damage: 1629 - 5832 (3730.5) @ 61% DBL = 6006 AVG
Final 2 Damage: 775 - 3339 (2057) @ 61% DBL = 3312 AVG

WW Potential:

Frame 4 : 6006 (6006)
Frame 8 : 6006 + 3312 (15324)
Frame 12: 6006 + 3312 (24642)
Frame 16: 6006 + 3312 (33960)
Frame 20: 6006 + 3312 (43278)
Frame 24: 6006 + 3312 (52596)

Perfect 15% Superior Grief Beserker & 270% BEAST
================================================

Weapon 1 Damage: 427 - 598 (inc charms)
Weapon 2 Damage: 88 - 379 (inc charms)

STR: 194
Skill: 158% + 174% = 332%
Fanat: 186%
Items: 39%

Total ED: 751%

Weapon 1 DS: 70%
Weapon 2 DS: 50%
CS: 22%

Weapon 1 Chance of CS/DS: 76.6%
Weapon 2 Chance of CS/DS: 61%

Final 1 Damage: 3633 - 5088 (4360.5) @ 76.6% DBL = 7700 AVG
Final 2 Damage: 749 - 3225 (1987) @ 61% DBL = 3199 AVG

Frame 4 : 7700 (7700)
Frame 8 : 7700 + 3199 (18599)
Frame 12: 7700 + 3199 (29498)
Frame 16: 7700 + 3199 (40397)
Frame 20: 7700 + 3199 (51296)
Frame 24: 7700 + 3199 (62195)

Perfect 15% Superior Grief Zerker & 415% EBOTD Zerker
================================================== ===

Weapon 1 Damage: 427 - 598 (inc charms)
Weapon 2 Damage: 185 - 662 (inc charms)

STR: 184
Skill: 158% + 174% = 332%
Items: 39%

Total ED: 555%

Weapon 1 DS: 70%
Weapon 2 DS: 50%
CS: 22%

Weapon 1 Chance of CS/DS: 76.6%
Weapon 2 Chance of CS/DS: 61%

Final 1 Damage: 2796 - 3916 (3356) @ 76.6% DBL = 5926 AVG
Final 2 Damage: 1211 - 4336 (2773.5) @ 61% DBL = 4465 AVG

Frame 4 : 5926 (5926)
Frame 8 : 5926 + 4465 (16317)
Frame 12: 5926 + 4465 (26708)
Frame 16: 5926 + 4465 (37099)
Frame 20: 5926 + 4465 (47490)
Frame 24: 5926 + 4465 (57881)

2x Perfect 15% Superior Grief Zerker
====================================

Weapon 1 Damage: 427 - 598 (inc charms)
Weapon 2 Damage: 427 - 598 (inc charms)

STR: 154
Skill: 158% + 174% = 332%
Items: 39%

Total ED: 525%

DS: 70%
CS: 22%

Chance of CS/DS: 76.6%

Final 1 Damage: 2668 - 3737 (3202.5) @ 76.6% DBL = 5655 AVG
Final 2 Damage: 2668 - 3737 (3202.5) @ 76.6% DBL = 5655 AVG

Frame 4 : 5655 (5655)
Frame 8 : 5655 + 5655 (16965)
Frame 12: 5655 + 5655 (28275)
Frame 16: 5655 + 5655 (39585)
Frame 20: 5655 + 5655 (50895)
Frame 24: 5655 + 5655 (62205)

So Grief/Beast is better in WW where the first hit is taken into account, otherwise Grief/Grief is better. As far as application goes, BVC almost always involves the 4th frame of WW when you tele+ww on a target. Melee duels are more likely to involve WW frames > 4 so Grief/Grief may be better.

But keep in mind the above does not include OW or CB which the Grief/Beast setup would have a significant advantage in, or Grief's Venom, which the Grief/Grief setup would have a slight advantage in due to more -ve enemy psn res from a second grief.

Personally I'm going with Grief/Beast for everything.

I don't see Grief/EBOTD being better than Grief/Beast under any circumstance.

[Gotcha]

Personally I'm going with Grief/Beast for everything.

I don't see Grief/EBOTD being better than Grief/Beast under any circumstance.

Well I have not tested grief/botd yet since I have been using grief/beast yet the numbers seem to be right on target for the PVP penalty and my original findings with the diff of around 270 or so per ww.

As for the Grief/Grief I did try that but it seemed to not hit as much.

As for the Grief/BOTD the reason I brought it up is it is the only combo I have found to use when lvling up since with grief/beast etc. you will run out of mana in a heartbeat.

Thanks for the help and number crunching, that was great since I am bad at the math.

Thanks mcm