View Full Version : RULES ARE CHANGING -- Make your contribution!
Now that the SPTF has been operating successfully for a few months, it is time to revise the rules. As you can see, they are already in version 1.3, and for those of you who don't know, this is because the moderators and administration staff took a week or so developing the rules as they exist now. Lots of work went into the rules, and they have worked very well so far.
So why make changes?
One simple reason: You, the traders, have the best concept of what works and what doesn't.
Therefore, I invite you all to make comments on corrections, additions, deletions, and modifications to the SPTF Rules v1.3 (http://www.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?t=284233). Be specific, provide a reason for your suggestion, and state its intended goal. I will personally review all of your comments, and if I need further clarification, I will post questions here.
Forseeably, there will be some ideas on which we will not all agree. Please maintain your respect for each other, and should any problems arise, bring them to my attention by using the "Report this post" button.
And finally, until the revision is complete and the newest version is stickied at the top of the forum, the SPTF Rules v1.3 still apply -- no exceptions.
Thank you all for your time and interest in making this a better place to trade.
stupidgreen
22-02-2005, 00:05
I think that runes shael and below should be tradable. While not as common as pgems, they are still common enough that they won't be duped. As it is, since pgem trading is allowed, so should low rune trading.
Perhaps allowing quest rewards to be traded. Getting the extra sockets can be nice, as can creation of rares from Charsi. I am not sure about the Hellforge however. Could create some problems, but might not. I mention that hoping for more feedback.
All in all, though, this is much better than the old trade thread was.
edit: The main reason I think that quest rewards shoudl be tradable is they allow people who have played longer to trade gear for sockets/eth dim. blade crafting/ runes (maybe) to newer players, who lack the resources to get good MF gear.
silospen
22-02-2005, 00:08
While not as common as pgems, they are still common enough that they won't be duped.
Pffft - I disagree. I want to be able to trade runes. In fact, right now, i'm trying to, through Pm's. They just don't work when it's so easy to dupe.
stupidgreen
22-02-2005, 00:12
Don't get me wrong, I don't think that trading of um's and gul's should happen. Remember the fiasco at the end of the trade thread? I think it should be limited to low runes: the crafting ones and shaels (just cause they are so commonly used between weapons and Rhyme/CM etc...)
So, if we are going to worry about people duping ort's, we should be worried about pgems too.
necrolemming
22-02-2005, 00:16
1. I think all rune trading should be allowed.
2. No trading rune socketed items is a little ridiculous for things like shaelamneth Sundans, etc.
3. new members to the trade forum should have some kind of screening process.
4. High rune trading should be:
a. totally public
b. auction-based
b. based on a nomination system
i.e. Only members with reliable references should be allowed
This should restrict high runes to between only legit members.
5. IMO, auction threads should be capped to ~5 items per thread.
6. Show respect for everyone, whether he deserves it or not.
Be polite.
I don't like these very much - depending on the person in question.
7. I think trying to post totally unreasonable offers should be banned.
TopHatCat64
22-02-2005, 00:55
7. I think trying to post totally unreasonable offers should be banned.
Banned? Isn't that a little harsh when all you have to do is politely decline the offer with a simple no, especially in the Single player trade forum where, outside of the really rare stuff like Death's Web and Tyrael's, everything is pretty liquid in terms of of its value.
If the person persists in offering totally crazy offers you report the post and hopefully the mod can straighten the person out.
For low rune trading (crafting supplies and such) I don't think there should be too much concern about trading. After all, we have auction threads where items go for 50-60 p.gems each, and no one is concerned about the legitimacy of the p.gems.
For high rune trading, I say we allow it also. I think all of us here have a general idea of what a rune is worth, so we probably all know when something fishy is going on (i.e. Zod rune for Natalya's Mark) and we can steer clear of those traders.
silospen
22-02-2005, 00:59
Banned? Isn't that a little harsh when all you have to do is politely decline the offer with a simple no, especially in the Single player trade forum where, outside of the really rare stuff like Death's Web and Tyrael's, everything is pretty liquid in terms of of its value.
If the person persists in offering totally crazy offers you report the post and hopefully the mod can straighten the person out.
I think that Necro meant that the act of making ridiculous offers should be banned, not the actual person making the offers.
TopHatCat64
22-02-2005, 01:09
Well if that's what necro meant then I would agree but I'm not sure how realistic it is to assume everyone will know what a fair offer is. Especially when, as I said before, people's ideas of what's valueable and what's not can vary widely.
Although I am not a major trader in these forums, I think there should be some relaxation of low level rune trading, at the very least on items socketed shaels, amns etc. It seams a little silly that I can trade a weapon with a 40/15 jewel in it, and we all know how common they are :rolleyes: , but not a shael. Doing something about what people offer for items is fraught with danger. If I need a TC3 to finish my grail, I'd offer any number of TC87 to get it.
EDITED FOR CLARITY
maxgerin
22-02-2005, 05:14
On hig-level runes: After what happened when I posted the LO rune for trade/auction in the Single Player Forum's "weekly" trade thread some months ago shortly before this forum was created, I have come to realize how dangerous it is to trade runes openly/publicly (meaning posting it). With the interest that it generated and the amount and quality of items I got, it is certainly open to abuses if allowed again to happen. I'm not saying this because I don't have anymore uber runes to trade/auction, but because I think that drawed too much attention and might be used to get legit items from our fellow members if allowed again. But then again, TO EACH HIS/HER OWN. Upon this matter I think the prudence of the forum members and moderators will prevail.
On low-level runes: I agree that trading low-level runes is similar to trading pgems, but as far as the cap on what can be considered as "low-level" I have no idea. And I doubt you'll be able to cube enough of, say, shael collected through trading to make high runes. But we must still be vigilant, especially if someone offered 100 shaels for example... if and when rune trading will be allowed in the near future.
Still, I think the best way to go is the personal trading that is now in effect. A lot inefficient especially for those who want to make crafted items and whatnots requiring a lot of low level runes, but nevertheless an effective way to prevent dupe items from circulating in the economy.
Just some thoughts... ;)
BTW, we keep asking people to post the stats of their items and we do the same to supposedly be open in trading, but do we really check whether these items are indeed "popular" dupes? Does ATMA's dupe-detecting feature contain a database of "popular" runes? I haven't been able to explore this feature extensively so please enlighten me. :)
Call me crazy, but for most of the time I ask other members to post the ATMA stats of their items that I want to trade for in the hopes that a "guardian angel" is checking whether these items are dupe or not. But at times when I'm doubtful, I do search for the fingerprint in the forum whether the items have already been posted for trade or traded already or not.
--maxgerin
necrolemming
22-02-2005, 05:55
I think that Necro meant that the act of making ridiculous offers should be banned, not the actual person making the offers.
Silo got it.
Some offers are just laughable.
And the reverse shouldn't be allowed either. Asking for a Stormlash for a pair of non-uber rare gloves? :rant:
NSXdreamer
22-02-2005, 07:00
Me think:
1. Rune trade should be allowed. They are easily duped, yes, but so are everything else in SP game. Heck I can create a (any) perfectly legit item in a minute if I want to, so can everyone else who isn't braindead.
2. New member screening process, as mentioned by bob.
Banning ridiculous offer is not possible I'm afraid, the item value system takes a while for a new member to know.
My thoughts:
1)member screening: That would be good. An intro over at the SPF, and some time to know the chap better would be more reassuring.
2) rune trading: I would prefer trading of stuff that has runes socketed in them, but no trading of runes/runewords though.
That's it for now.
Disco-neck Ted
22-02-2005, 23:46
Me think:
1. Rune trade should be allowed. They are easily duped, yes, but so are everything else in SP game. Heck I can create a (any) perfectly legit item in a minute if I want to, so can everyone else who isn't braindead.
It takes a bit more effort for most folks to create "legit" items than it does just to dupe runes and run the cube with wild abandon. The former requires a fair bit of knowledge beyond mere gameplay mechanics, or the acquisition of third party programs. Besides, anyone who is able to create items as you describe should likewise be able to get whatever runes they need by the same method, so your argument defeats itself.
My feeling is that rune trade should not be allowed, although the shael-and-below rule is tempting. Likewise, pgem trade makes my spider sense tingle, but it is orders of magnitude away from the probs that can come up with high-end runes. Nobody is likely to trade a half dozen hard to come by grail items for pgems.
I know this is probably too much a technical issue, but like Yahoo auctions or ebay, there is a rating for good/bad auctioneers. I have not come across a bad trader in my few trades thus far and the SP traders do usually trade in a circle. But I think if we can somehow create a simple rating mechanism it might help the trading community overall.
This might then also help with the issue of low-level rune trading. A legit fair trader would be able to get approval (from the potential tradees) to use low level runes for trade.
Just a grab in the dark =D
Crazy Runner Guy
23-02-2005, 05:49
Things You May NOT Trade
Runes, or any item containing runes
Duped items
Items created using any third-party program (hacked items)
Bugged items
Any item that does not normally spawn in an unmodified Diablo 2 game
Any items found while using Maphack, or another similar program
Characters
Quest rewards
Any real life items or services
The following should be amended to allow rune trading, including items with runes.
Why? Runes, although easily dupeable ARE a valuable commodity, especially for high-end players. Allowing runes would allow for a sort of currency, al beit unstandard, and ease up trading.
HOWEVER, runes, because of their duped ease, MUST be traded out in the open, and, in order to maintain a security blanket should a trade turn out faulty, players should be encoraged to keep a separate folder containing old trade mules, labeled by date and trade, where by if a trade goes bad, the person will have a back up, and then the person who convicted the violation will be banned, as per SPF/site rules.
crg
debbbole
23-02-2005, 06:50
I'm a newbye of this forum, but I'm playing D2 since the beginning. I think that having non-legit items is really simple: just need to use a drop mod... In some of these mods, you can just buy a rune for 1gold from Akara... :rolleyes:
For this reason, I think that is very good to ban high runes from every trade... even in an auction: I could take an HR, f.e., by giving 5 IKSC taken in a drop-mod, or simply buy from Akara a ZOD and sell it in an auction.
HR trading IMHO could boost the use of non-legit ways of "finding" items.
Instead, I think is very good to allow crafting runes trading: those runes are really low level (except those needed to upgrade items: the solution is simple... just allow rune trading, f.e., from EL to SOL), and pgems could be as simply duped as them. If we trust in trading pgems, we could trust in trading SOL runes.
I agree with necrolemming: asking a stormlash for a pair of crappy gloves should be banned; users with more trading experience should be allowed to tell a man that he's trying to steal other than trading... :)
Eventually, I think that is not a good rule the one that says that any trade is possible. Some items have an higher values than others... if a user needs a sander's cap and he offers some items, and one other user asks a SoJ for it, I think this is something like stealing, again... no matter if seller and buyer meets their needs (this was an example: anyway, I've heard many times that a situation like this one is perfectly allowed... but maybe a user just doesn't know that a SoJ is more expensive than a sander's cap... :)). I don't have a solution for this problem, anyway... so you can just ignore it! :D
NSXdreamer
23-02-2005, 06:59
It takes a bit more effort for most folks to create "legit" items than it does just to dupe runes and run the cube with wild abandon. The former requires a fair bit of knowledge beyond mere gameplay mechanics, or the acquisition of third party programs. Besides, anyone who is able to create items as you describe should likewise be able to get whatever runes they need by the same method, so your argument defeats itself.
My feeling is that rune trade should not be allowed, although the shael-and-below rule is tempting. Likewise, pgem trade makes my spider sense tingle, but it is orders of magnitude away from the probs that can come up with high-end runes. Nobody is likely to trade a half dozen hard to come by grail items for pgems.
It comes right back to common sense. Use it liberally, and there won't be any problems.
In case you can't tell, I dislike rules a lot and do have problem with authorities. :D
Eventually, I think that is not a good rule the one that says that any trade is possible. Some items have an higher values than others... if a user needs a sander's cap and he offers some items, and one other user asks a SoJ for it, I think this is something like stealing, again... no matter if seller and buyer meets their needs (this was an example: anyway, I've heard many times that a situation like this one is perfectly allowed... but maybe a user just doesn't know that a SoJ is more expensive than a sander's cap... :)). I don't have a solution for this problem, anyway... so you can just ignore it! :D
Only if both party are aware of the true value of items in transaction. I.e. no ripping off newbies. :)
Originally Posted by Current SPTF Rules
Things You May NOT Trade
Runes, or any item containing runes
Duped items
Items created using any third-party program (hacked items)
Bugged items
Any item that does not normally spawn in an unmodified Diablo 2 game
Any items found while using Maphack, or another similar program
Characters
Quest rewards
Any real life items or services
The following should be amended to allow rune trading, including items with runes.
Why? Runes, although easily dupeable ARE a valuable commodity, especially for high-end players. Allowing runes would allow for a sort of currency, al beit unstandard, and ease up trading.
HOWEVER, runes, because of their duped ease, MUST be traded out in the open, and, in order to maintain a security blanket should a trade turn out faulty, players should be encoraged to keep a separate folder containing old trade mules, labeled by date and trade, where by if a trade goes bad, the person will have a back up, and then the person who convicted the violation will be banned, as per SPF/site rules.
crg
By the way this rule set bans me from trading my legit 2 socketed suwayyah with +3 claw mastery. I can place strength in it and it would still be un-tradable. Yes I embelish a little but I can make one of these in game without cheating in any manner but according to the rules "can not normally spawn" so it is illegal for trade, a simple AmnTir on a +3 clawmastery claw will make a very powerful second claw for many melee assassins.
I think that low end runewords should be allowed, for instance it takes me what about 1 hour to find and make a decent leaf staff but its "unlegit" and "illegal" to trade here according to the current rules, but then again what is a low end runeword, to me my "stone" is in the mid range but others would consider that high end. Its all a matter of how much and how long someone has played.
I think runes in items should be allowed, but a cap should be placed on them say only runes that the Countess can drop on her runedrop. That makes everyone have an even playing field plus it forgets the near impossible to find runes such as jah, cham, zod, ber, etc.
I agree that rune trade should be made completely in the open.
Dodgydave
24-02-2005, 22:22
I think Lemmeh has made the most complete list of criticisms so far so I'll comment on each of these.
1. I think all rune trading should be allowed.
I actually think high rune trading should still be banned. Trading of crafting runes should be allowed however. Since PG trading in large quantities is allowed, and many of the low runes are of a similar rarity, then it makes sense to me to allow crafting rune trading. The incentive to dupe these runes would not be considerably greater than duping PGs.
2. No trading rune socketed items is a little ridiculous for things like shaelamneth Sundans, etc.
Completely agree. But common sense should be used here. The shaeled ribcracker is fine. The 6 Ist Crystal sword probably isn't!
3. new members to the trade forum should have some kind of screening process.
I'm not sure how you would manage this. Other than the current situation of asking new members to post an intro thread at the SPF and to post ATMA readouts of items I'm not sure what can be done. It is also a good idea to ask where the item was found so you can make sure the ATMA ilvl corresponds with the location.
4. High rune trading should be:
a. totally public
b. auction-based
b. based on a nomination system
i.e. Only members with reliable references should be allowed
This should restrict high runes to between only legit members.
Aren't all trades meant to be public and all members meant to be legit? ;)
5. IMO, auction threads should be capped to ~5 items per thread.
I agree, actions of 20+ items over a dozen pages all for PGs gets very confusing. Also each member should only be allowed one action thread open at a time. Once one auction has been completed and teh thread locked then you can start another.
6. I don't like these very much - depending on the person in question.
Come on Lemmeh, yoiu can think of a polite way to tell someone they're a cheating moron! :D
7. I think trying to post totally unreasonable offers should be banned.
Yeah it's annoying, but if they're that unreasonable they'll be ignored and should die a natural death.
I'm all for trading runes Shael and below. I'm also iffy over whether or not Pul and below should be able to be traded (for upgrade reasons). I'm slightly tempted to vote for allowing Gul and below as well, but I'm gonna say no on that - there are a lot of new people joining lately (probably because of the crap runewords on cattle.net) and allowing higher runes to be traded is iffy - besides, us oldbies still can trade high runes via email correspondance. I prefer to keep it this way because rune trading then stays within a tight circle of trusted members. Once a new member has established himself well and made friendships with some of the more respected members, he'll find himself in this circle of trust (gogo Meet The Parents!).
So... Shael and below, yes. Um and below? I think more discussion before we go this high. Gul and below? No. This decision includes items with the runes in them as well. I'm going to also say yes to trading upgraded items - even though I'm undecided for Um and below because there isn't a lot of net gain for this.
As far as the other rules? I like what exists so far.
Cattleya
26-02-2005, 02:16
I like the idea of runes Shael and below being allowed to be traded. (Any higher and I would start to get nervous.) It would allow for another option besides PGems for lower level items, and allow the packrats (can't... leave... El... on... ground) and crafters to get together. I would also be okay with upgraded items being allowed for trade.
Also, I think the rules should direct people to post an intro in the SPF before they post a trade thread. This is what they are told to do anyhow, and it would be nice to make it official.
-Cat
I think runes up to Shael should be allowed.
Hypothetically(sp?), The only item I had left for my grail was a Gull Dagger, and I had some extra TC 87s. I think I trades such as those should be allowed.
As for being able to trade, I think you should have to be at the forums for x amount of time, or have x amount of non-spam posts before you're allowed to trade.
I, too, have read all these comments on this issue. They have been good ones. Now for my two cents:) Lemming did a pretty good critique on the basic issues. I think that lower level runes are fine, I would say they are equivalent to gems. If one is banned they should all be banned (gems and runes). Higher level runes-I am of two minds about that one. The trick, of course, is the issue of trust. I would have to conclude that tc87 items are rather rare and are still traded. Even between new and older traders. The same principle should apply to runes. I would draw the line on the really rare runes such as Vex and above. The odds are just too poor. If the player can somehow verify where he or she got that rune then, perhaps, the high rune can be traded. If we permit runes, then runewords should be allowed (unless they contain the outlawed runes) I propose we allow the highest rune that the Hellforge can drop (Gul, I believe). I like the idea of feedback but I am skeptical abut how we can do it without a lot of hassle. Especially for the poor mods:( Krem and AE would really be busy!! Like Faceset, I like the idea of a "probation period" between joining a forum and then being allowed to do trades. I liked Dave's comment to Lemming about "cheating morons" Very well put.
Shawn
Here goes another: Lift the ban on rune trading. Working with PM's is tedious to say the least, and makes me feel like being in kindergarten again. People should learn to deal with greed. And besides, who'd like to trade high runes with a beautiful stranger?
I would draw the line on the really rare runes such as Vex and above. The odds are just too poor. If the player can somehow verify where he or she got that rune then, perhaps, the high rune can be traded. Shawn
Duping 1337 gear isn't that more difficult than duping runes...
Dodgydave
27-02-2005, 00:01
Duping 1337 gear isn't that more difficult than duping runes...
Yes but '1337' gear comes with a finger print and ilvl which can be used (at least to some degree) to ascertain the legitimacy of the item.
Runes (and PG's for that matter) do not have a fingerprint or ilvl so whether or not they are duped is harder to determine.
ricrestoni
27-02-2005, 07:08
Remove rune ban. It never had a motive to be, and I don't remember anyone asking for it. It was an arbitrary decision of mods+owners. If rune trading caused one thing, it was making cheaters come up and be discovered to permanent ban.
Everyone should be mature enough to follow kindness rather than greed or rule enforcement. If that's not the case, well, one should expect a mob of angry SPFers with torches and pitchforks at his thread. That's always been enough to guarantee our fair trading system.
BTW, did I mention that I miss the good old trade thread? :)
Runes (and PG's for that matter) do not have a fingerprint or ilvl ...
which can also be hacked on an item.
IMHO, there should be a vouching system for trading runes above Hellforge level, if a few well known forum regulars agree to vouch you, trade is possible, if they don't, it isn't.
necrolemming
27-02-2005, 21:08
IMHO, there should be a vouching system for trading runes above Hellforge level, if a few well known forum regulars agree to vouch you, trade is possible, if they don't, it isn't.
Good to see that someone agrees with my system of high-r00n trading.
Dodgydave
27-02-2005, 21:25
which can also be hacked on an item.
However, when people are too lazy to find their own items they often have a lesser understanding of how fingerprints and ilvls work amoungst other game mechanics. Many can be caught out by simply asking them where they found the item, and seeing if the ilvl corresponds with that area.
Also there is a database of known dupes/hacked items and their fingerprints. A quick cross reference of the items fingerprint with that list can weed out a few more illigitimate items.
Also fingerprints aren't as completely random as they may seem and it's not possible for just anything to spawn as an items fingerprint. So you can't just type in any combination of letters/numbers and have it be a possible fingerprint for any old item. The stats gurus pick up on items with inconsistent fingerprints rather quickly.
You don't have any of these options with runes. The only identifying factor is that they have a version type on them which allows you to tell if they were from 1.10 or an earlier version (labelled as simply 'expansion' in that case). I've only seen one person stupid enough to be caught out by that though.......
However, ...
True. That's all very mean, but then again, I wasn't planning to trade runes with people I hardly know, I guess I'm wearing fanaticism aura of a rather high level while argumenting against the rune trading ban ;)
Point is, I want to have the decision whether to trade or not.
NSXdreamer
28-02-2005, 20:00
Also fingerprints aren't as completely random as they may seem and it's not possible for just anything to spawn as an items fingerprint. So you can't just type in any combination of letters/numbers and have it be a possible fingerprint for any old item. The stats gurus pick up on items with inconsistent fingerprints rather quickly.
Explain. I'm pretty sure it's just an random hex number off the datastream. I've had discussions about the possibility of it indicate the drop source, but all people's conclusion is it's totally random.
If you don't feel like to post here, PM me.
Crazy Runner Guy
01-03-2005, 09:33
IMHO, there should be a vouching system for trading runes above Hellforge level, if a few well known forum regulars agree to vouch you, trade is possible, if they don't, it isn't.
Then you get into who can and who can't vouch for someone, and how are they supposed to know if you legitimately found the item you're trading? Do they have to be there?
The forum already does a good job of this, in the fact that new traders are encouraged to not trade until they make an intro thread. Also, I believe the forumites, in perusing trading threads picks up on big deals being made, for example, when buster traded for eth3real;s (or however he spelled it) Tyreals. The same concept goes for the people who are willing to offer up huge sums for a Griffon's Eye COUGH MYSELF COUGH. I know one forumite had a huge list of items s/he was willing to swap for one.
Anyway, this is an extremly complicated issue that eventually boils down to trust. Do I trust you that Lister dropped that Ist rune? The answer therein lies whether I will trade with you or not.
Unfortunately, we are not given a certificate of authenticity with items. As fingerprints have shown, we have a long list of known dupes.
There is an answer here, however, it escapes me. To all, the best of luck at coming to a consensus.
@Krem: Thanks for taking on this project.
crg
Dodgydave
01-03-2005, 11:53
Explain. I'm pretty sure it's just an random hex number off the datastream. I've had discussions about the possibility of it indicate the drop source, but all people's conclusion is it's totally random.
If you don't feel like to post here, PM me.
Well, I'm not 100% on these things as I mainly stay away from the really technical side of the game. If you recall there was a member a few months back (maybe more I lose track of time) who had a rather awesome sorc crafted amulet (+2/20%All resist/20%FCR/28str/other godly stuff) that they claimed to have crafted. There was a bit of debate about it and I thought it was found to be hacked when it was discovered the fingerprint was inconsistent with a crafted amulet.
Of course then again I could just be completely wrong. ;) It happens often. :D
Well, I'm not 100% on these things as I mainly stay away from the really technical side of the game. If you recall there was a member a few months back (maybe more I lose track of time) who had a rather awesome sorc crafted amulet (+2/20%All resist/20%FCR/28str/other godly stuff) that they claimed to have crafted. There was a bit of debate about it and I thought it was found to be hacked when it was discovered the fingerprint was inconsistent with a crafted amulet.
Of course then again I could just be completely wrong. ;) It happens often. :D
I you want to see a detailed discussion about seeds, fingerprints and the like, search for "The Seed Thread" , it was posted by Jezzwashere. The read from around page 13 or 15 IIRC, there Jarulf and Doc explain the whole fingerprint thing. IIRC it is the only no random number in some series of number of numbers. Just remembering that thread makes me dizzy *_* .
NSXdreamer
01-03-2005, 18:18
That's what I thought too, it dosen't tell you anything at all, besides when you saw two identical item with two identical FP's.
Dodgydave
01-03-2005, 21:21
Just remembering that thread makes me dizzy *_* .
That's why I won't bother reading it at the moment. Well even if fingerprints are completely random, dupes of items with fingerprints are easier to keep track of than runes without.
skunkbelly
01-03-2005, 22:42
OK, here's an idea for the new rules: not quite a rule, though.
How about a stickied HC trading thread, for all SP HC traders? There are so few of us interested in HC trading, but if there was one single thread where we could go, things might pick up a bit. It's hard wading after page after page of softcore trades, looking for that one lonely HC post.
Just a thought.
ricrestoni
02-03-2005, 00:15
Very well remembered, CRG.
Thanks, Krem, for your efforts. You are a great guy (who we from time to time have fun to pick on - where is Bubbletough, BTW? :) )
I suppose I will also post my thoughts..
Regarding rune trading-
Several of you have mentioned a vouching system, which sounds good in theory, but really isn't. Simply, it is interpretive, and for the system to work the best, there needs to be a set of clearly defined rules (as set forth by the community).
Every trade that takes place on the forum is based on some amount of trust--that the item is legit, the trader is well intentioned, and that the trader will delete the file(s) containing the item once the transaction has taken place and all is deemed to be good and well. Obviously, a "known" member is more likely to adhere to all of the above, but nothing is ever guaranteed. I was reading an article on MSN a few days back in which statistics showed that the majority of people committing identity theft knew the victim well. This is, of course, a stretch in relation, but serves to remind that human nature is, at best, rather unpredictable.
One might support a friend by vouching for them, only to later discover some form of malpractice, likely banning the perpetrator and damaging the reputation of the voucher. This is not to say that something of the like would ever occur, simply that it is possible. We must each maintain a healthy skepticism for every trade that takes place, but not so much that it interferes with the commerce of all. Obviously everyone must use a little common sense in addition.
I have one high end hell forge rune and a non-hellforge rune a few levels above that which I was lucky enough to come across. Would I, with my currently fewer than 10 posts be allowed to trade such runes? Perhaps, perhaps not, I would be subject to whatever limited views the community possessed about me for my short stay here.
Thus, a clearly define set of rules on who can trade what must be made. And, while I am all in favor of any kind of rune trading, if the community cannot come to a consensus on the issue, then the rules on runes should remain as they are.
However, as others have mentioned, traders would simply like the choice to trade runes.
-High end item trades
I also would like to see a list of something like the rarest 25 items to be posted and stickied at the top of the forum. I know that this is a barter economy, but there are some newer individuals who have top-end items and really have no idea what they are worth. Is it right to take advantage of others ignorance? I think not, but again that is a community decision.
For example, I saw a Death's Web that was almost traded a few months ago. It was about to go for a few relatively low-end items, when two other individuals hijacked the thread, informing the owner (who was new to the forum, I believe) of the rarity of that item. Now, while I felt bad for the person who was in negotiations for the Web, it really should have gone for a lot more than what it almost did. It would be nice to have some kind of price/rarity list (just for the top items) to allow all who trade an equal shot at it.
All I can think of at the moment..
Greetings, everyone!
Some good ideas are being presented here, and I'm glad to see the intelligent discussion and the well-supported points that are being raised. I just wanted to let you all know that I am maintaining my interest in this thread and the revision project. So long as there is more to say, the thread will stay open. Over the weekend, I'll go through and select the main points and provide my feedback on them. Make sure you get your words in before then if you want them to be included in the first round of commentary.
You all are doing a great job here -- keep it up!
debbbole
02-03-2005, 12:53
I think that a good way to make clearer who is a good player/trader and who's not it's using a feedback like on eBay. Seller and Buyer have to put a +1 (or -1) to the other (for every trade), and a short comment. We could stick a thread in which the 1st topic is the index of links to topics in which every player could read a trader's history: these topics could be structured in this way: the first reply contains the number of +1, the number of -1 and the final score, the replies have to be structured in "couples" (one reply from the seller, one from the buyer), no spam possible.
We could add another possible score, 0 f.e., to tell that this was a neutral trade.
In this way, everyone could have an history that everyone could read before trading. And none could arrive here and start trading before subscribing to the traders' list... :)
I think, anyway, that this is a great idea:
I also would like to see a list of something like the rarest 25 items to be posted and stickied at the top of the forum. I know that this is a barter economy, but there are some newer individuals who have top-end items and really have no idea what they are worth. Is it right to take advantage of others ignorance? I think not, but again that is a community decision.
PS: pls forgive my very bad english... :D
I regret that the rules do not discourage sc/hc trades. Sure it states that the person posting a trade list needs to state what game version he/she uses (including the hc/sc thang if other then 1.10 sc). However the person bidding does not seem to post the same info for some reason.
Second all the hype about excluding rune trades is mind numbing. The facts are simple, a Zod rune on Single Player could be duped within about one hour with a few low runes + atma + needed gems (and another zod could follow every 5 seconds or so after the initial efford was made). Trade has always been based on trust and rune trade was never excluded in Greybeards nor Darkness days. Why rune trading suddenly became unmanageble while we now even have 2 moderators to check on things eludes me. Its not that hard to spot a rune faker, the solution IMHO really is to allow rune/rune trading (e.g trade your Ber for 2 Sur runes) and gem/low rune tradings (3 pgems for a Shael) only to prevent any kiddies from trying to get item rich fast using duped runes as a trading value.
Items socketed with reasonable runes should not cause any trouble as they do under the proposed rules. High rune worded items should only be traded for high runes to keep the trading pools clean. No unique (or even MUCH rare items like a 4 socketed etheral vortex shield with 45 resist all) should be traded for runes.
AnarchyTheory
04-03-2005, 01:19
It's Anarchy and I'm just postin my part-
I think that runes should be tradable! I hear the reason that they are not, is because they are "easy to dupe." Come on... Any item is equaly dupable. I would know because I used to dupe items when I got bored of Bnet. I DON'T ANYMORE... I'd rather cut off a finger that to cheat at such a great game again. So once again, runes should be tradable.
-Anarchy :D
It's Anarchy and I'm just postin my part-
I think that runes should be tradable! I hear the reason that they are not, is because they are "easy to dupe." Come on... Any item is equaly dupable.
It's not the fact that they're easier to dupe, it's they're harder to prove to be duped. Regular items have fingerprints, item levels, and variables making it easier to see if it's duped.
AnarchyTheory
04-03-2005, 01:59
It's not the fact that they're easier to dupe, it's they're harder to prove to be duped. Regular items have fingerprints, item levels, and variables making it easier to see if it's duped.
Hm...I thought runes might have fingureprints... Sorry, I understand now.
-Anarchy :D
NeckRomancer
04-03-2005, 23:37
OK, my turn.
First up, I also concur that at least crafting runes should be tradeable. In my view, low-level runes are like perfect gems -- they can be used as 'currency.'
Second, I'd like to take up the issue of 1.07 items: back in 1.09, there were restrictions on trading 1.07 items for 1.09 items. There were also issues, since some 1.07 items were overpowered and rack-running was not universally accepted. My position is that 1.07 stuff can be traded for 1.09/1.10 items. I don't see rack-running in 1.07 as any different from today's LK rune hunts.
Finally, I suggest we have a permanent stickied thread as to a short description of the people trading in the forum, plus e-mail address for reference. It'll serve as an intro, a description and a contact reference for forum traders.
Finally, I suggest we have a permanent stickied thread as to a short description of the people trading in the forum, plus e-mail address for reference. It'll serve as an intro, a description and a contact reference for forum traders.
Good suggestion, I second that. Saves us from having to direct people to the SPF forum.
Me too agree to allow rune trading but only low-mid level runes say El-Lem. Yes i know some expert (ie.nsx) can make a 'legit' item(s), but only some minority of forumites can do that. If we allow high runes trading, it'll increase the chance of cheating significantly coz everybody can dupe a Zod or any runes with ATMA.
For technical side i suggest member are allowed to edit the title of their trade thread, this will reduce the need of starting new trade thread significantly and add a lot of benefit i can't tell with my limited english, just figure it. Thanks for your attention.
my appreciation to everybody who cares for SPTF
-salvo
NSXdreamer
06-03-2005, 20:11
Yes i know some expert (ie.nsx) can make a 'legit' item(s), but only some minority of forumites can do that.
-salvo
Hah, you sounds like I do that for a living. :D
necrolemming
06-03-2005, 20:50
Any n00b with a cubemod can make "legit" items.
silospen
07-03-2005, 19:06
2 Things:
a) I love how a guy can come to the trade forum and make a tradelist. No one will trade with him, as he has no intro. So he goes to the SPF and makes a single thread "Hi, Im...., Im from...., Im legit", then people trade with him. How has he changed? How has he become more trusted?!
b) Cheating is like breaking the law. Stealing £1 and stealing £1000 is the same thing, just as hacking an el rune is exactly the same as hacking a zod rune. So, Salvo, "cheating significantly" is exactly the same as cheating insignificantly.
NSXdreamer
07-03-2005, 19:27
a) I love how a guy can come to the trade forum and make a tradelist. No one will trade with him, as he has no intro. So he goes to the SPF and makes a single thread "Hi, Im...., Im from...., Im legit", then people trade with him. How has he changed? How has he become more trusted?!
Nothing, but what can you do? NeckRo's suggestion may be the best we got for the moment, then let others use common sense (which is really lacking in this world for some reason).
So don't pretend it's possible to bestow common sense uppon greedy people :p If people are willing to trade good stuff with unknown entities, by all means let them- you probably won't, so what's the big deal :)
And don't go hollering El-Lem as if we were some species of Bnet thrash, I for one want respect ;)
Dodgydave
07-03-2005, 23:00
2 Things:
a) I love how a guy can come to the trade forum and make a tradelist. No one will trade with him, as he has no intro. So he goes to the SPF and makes a single thread "Hi, Im...., Im from...., Im legit", then people trade with him. How has he changed? How has he become more trusted?!
There is absolutely nothing that says a person will be legit just because they post an intro thread, that's just common sense. What it boils down to is that the more a person posts the more you find out about them and if you see something you don't like then you don't have to trade with them. Asking someone to post an intro allows you too get a small look at their attitude and will hopefully encourage them to post more at the SPF and not just here in the trading forum. The more someone posts the more you can find out about them and if they aren't playing legitly they normally trip up sooner than later.
It's not a perfect system but it's the one we've got at the moment. :shrugg:
stupidgreen
08-03-2005, 03:16
Keep in mind, if you don't think someone's IKSC is legit, you are under no obligation to trade with them. But there is a lot of danger of accepting someone just because of post counts. Sure, dupers are more likely to have lower posts, be newer to the forums, etc..., but you will never know for sure, until they are caught duping.
Given how unstable our economy could become in just a few days time, I agree that we should be wary, but not paranoid.
Any rune that can be used to Upgrade an item should be allowed, if we are going to allow upgraded weapons to be traded. Traders can refuse an item which is socketed if they wish, but it isn't required. Whoever made the comment about an upgraded WWS with 2 40/15 jewels was right, it does seem odd.
Krem, I sent you a PM regarding an idea I had.
silospen
08-03-2005, 11:08
Krem, I sent you a PM regarding an idea I had.
Why not just post it here? The point of this thread is to discuss rules.
2 Things:
a) I love how a guy can come to the trade forum and make a tradelist. No one will trade with him, as he has no intro. So he goes to the SPF and makes a single thread "Hi, Im...., Im from...., Im legit", then people trade with him. How has he changed? How has he become more trusted?!
b) Cheating is like breaking the law. Stealing £1 and stealing £1000 is the same thing, just as hacking an el rune is exactly the same as hacking a zod rune. So, Salvo, "cheating significantly" is exactly the same as cheating insignificantly.
Yep you're right but i mean, it'll increase the odd of cheating happen, not its qualitative point.
RoidRage
09-03-2005, 21:34
Hi, I'm relatively new here but I will add my 2 cents. :) but my suggestion isn't regarding rune trading. It's about the forum. Why can't we edit the thread one hour after the post ? It's sometimes really a pain in the *** to have to search a 12 pages thread to see if the item is traded. It would be useful since the first post could be kept updated as trade goes on
I'm sure the moderators have their reasons (btw Kremtok and AE are doing a great job since it's the cleanest forums I've ever been (not only diablo-wise)) so my post is not for criticizing it's just a question/suggestion like that.
BTW, Sorry For My English, I'm French Canadian
stupidgreen
10-03-2005, 08:26
Why not just post it here? The point of this thread is to discuss rules.
Because it involved talking about something that might carry some kind of ban with it. I wanted to avoid one of those.
NSXdreamer
10-03-2005, 19:54
At another forum I read, also using vBulletin, they have a function where you can add/reduce reputation points to other people's post (and give reasons), so I thought that may be helpful in this situation? (Though I doubt the site admins would bother to do it just for this forum)
The problem I see with the idea of giving feedback is that of whether it is practical to do it. To my knowlege, there have been very few bad trades here on the forum. If there are disputes I assume they tend to be handled privately. There is the occasionally a post or two about duped itesm. They aren't very common. Would a feedback rating really help us evaluate other trades? Especially new traders. Trust can only be earned by risking and then not having it betrayed. I suspect administering a feedback system would be nightmare. It is a nice idea. I just don't see how we can pull it off.
NSXdreamer
10-03-2005, 22:55
It's a build in function of the forum software, as easy as click on one's post and select approve/disapprove. You can see who rated you and why (if they leave a reason).
But as I said, I really don't think the admins give a flying fuff to actually "turn on" this function just for this forum.
ChubbyHubby
11-03-2005, 06:20
I don't trade much, if at all, but I think the idea of what is legal and not should be on the person initiating the trade. E.g. if I am trading an item, I should be able to say "I accept runes for my item" or "no runes." If I am trading a rune, then anyone making an offer obviously agrees with me that runes should be tradeable.
The only problem I could see is that potentially the forum could degenerate as more and more non-legit players make trades, but as others have mentioned, people like that probably know how to make their own runes and gems and can probably make their own legit-looking items anyway. So I think that problem cancels itself out.
I'll add my 2 cents. (feel free to ignore them if you like to)
Allthough rune trading has been banned, runes are still traded among members of this site (trading in other forums/email can not be stopped). Now there is now way of seeing this though. Basically is sticking your head into the sand and think everything is fine.
Actually, I would love to see the downloadable items stash back online as well. Offcourse they could (and probably will) be seen in trades. But these can be detected easely (by fingerprint) instead of the much more difficult to detect hacked/duped items that now could (and most likely will) enter the tradepool. But if there is a full grail stash of downloadable items for download, it might reduce the number of people trying to trade illegal items as they can get everything they want for free.
EDIT: The idea is that you can not stop hacking, let's at least try to make it detectable.
Randall
I don't trade much, if at all, but I think the idea of what is legal and not should be on the person initiating the trade. E.g. if I am trading an item, I should be able to say "I accept runes for my item" or "no runes." If I am trading a rune, then anyone making an offer obviously agrees with me that runes should be tradeable.
The only problem I could see is that potentially the forum could degenerate as more and more non-legit players make trades, but as others have mentioned, people like that probably know how to make their own runes and gems and can probably make their own legit-looking items anyway. So I think that problem cancels itself out.
You can't leave it up to the individual because what one person does affects everyone else. Player A trades with B who does a giveaway to C who MPs with D.... Everyone gets the same rules. Dont like em? You can trade outside of the forums then. Thats the only way integrity can be maintained. Otherwise we'll have people who are "OK" with trading with someone with a hacked char or with someone who MFed with a drop mod.
Also, its been proven time and time again that people DO trade items after hacking them themselves so the problem does not cancel itself out.
As far as new members-
Perhaps anyone wanting to trade here for the first time should be required to send a Fara report to a mod or another trustworthy person for a quick once-over. The gatekeeper (so to speak) would look over the report for any extreme disproportion and make inquiries into it (i.e. a bunch of SOJs or tc87s with only a few normals, just common sense stuff). They could also look over rune distrubution as well. Obviously, things can be hidden/faked, and it might be a little bit of a pain, but it wouldn't hurt to have another safegaurd in place..
The community members will allways direct a new poster the the SP forums for an intro post, and this is good. These posts, however, are quickly burried and, as generally attested by the view count, not looked at by people. One might be able to see how an individual posts and their attitude within, but this isn't exactly the best reflection of their intentions. All illegitimate traders I have seen caught so far had posted their intro thread and begun to trade before they were found out. I suppose it does help slightly, but there still are other traders who, like me, are somtimes lazy in their dealings, and don't fully check out other traders. This though is human nature, and isn't subject to change any time soon.
High level runes are just sticky to be honest. Most people are aware of LK runs that can net a few high level runes, as well as the countess and hell forge rushing. These are legit ways to find runes, but one can just as easilly dupe runes and then claim to have found them via above methods. Especially when given an individual of some reputation and/or a high post count, who's to ever know the better? It's allways a calculated risk no matter what.
JihadJesus
14-03-2005, 07:10
Actually, I would love to see the downloadable items stash back online as well. Offcourse they could (and probably will) be seen in trades. But these can be detected easely (by fingerprint) instead of the much more difficult to detect hacked/duped items that now could (and most likely will) enter the tradepool. But if there is a full grail stash of downloadable items for download, it might reduce the number of people trying to trade illegal items as they can get everything they want for free.
Randall
I know you're going to catch a lot of flack for this post, but I have to say I agree with you. If memory serves me, a high percentage of suspect trades involved people with [duped] high runes attempting to get very rare items. if those items are clearly available, what incentive do they even have to trade with us? They can get their leet items and be 'godly' much more easily and without the hassle of finding a trade with us, and we can let them slaughter in peace. Since dupes from the pack are easily detected, I think it might at least be worth discussing. Of course I'm aware that our admins don't have the authority to post the pack even if it we did decide to give it a try, but talking about new ideas never hurt anyone.
Crazy Runner Guy
15-03-2005, 00:59
In light of a recent post in here, could we have rules pertaining to auctions, or should we leave this up to the auction-runner? I have not seen a post like this yet. For example:
All auctions shall have the following components:
1: Items Auctioning (with a limit, 5 has been suggested /w one thread/member at a time)
2: Minimum bid for each item
3: What items you are accepting as bids.
4: Date the auction closes.
5: Any other rules above and beyond (i.e. more restrictive, not looser) these rules.
Any suggestions?
crg
I was also going to make a post on this, though you beat me to it. ;)
A clear definition of what an auction actually is would be nice. Are auctions soley for items like pgems or runes (if this gets changed)? I think if you are bidding sets/uniques/charms/jewels then it is little different from an ISO/FT list.
Also, if someone puts up an auction, they must give away their item(s) at the end of it, regardless of what kind of deal the auctioner thinks they got (barring a minimum bid, which I agree should be posted, if included, at the top of a post). That's the way an auction works.. If you are going to put an item up for auction, you must be prepared to part with it for less than you think it should go for, otherwise just put it in a FT list.
Regarding your post-
1. I think that 5 is two few, 10 sounds a little more reasonable. You were thinking 1 auction/1 ISO/FT at a time? This is okay, but when one has 3+ threads on the front page it's too many. Also, I think a clear time policy between auctions should be implimented, i.e. 1 auction thread per two weeks (or so).
2. Agreed, everyone needs to know the minimum that one would let an item go for, so people aren't outright rejecting bids (which doesn't happen in an auction).
3. This should be very clear. I also push for, as above, for it to just be gems/runes.
4. Agreed, though I think there should be a limit, of perhaps a week duration, so threads don't clog up the main page, or get forgotten about and be burried.
chicagofan51
15-03-2005, 02:08
A clear definition of what an auction actually is would be nice. Are auctions soley for items like pgems or runes (if this gets changed)? I think if you are bidding sets/uniques/charms/jewels then it is little different from an ISO/FT list.
Also, if someone puts up an auction, they must give away their item(s) at the end of it, regardless of what kind of deal the auctioner thinks they got (barring a minimum bid, which I agree should be posted, if included, at the top of a post). That's the way an auction works.. If you are going to put an item up for auction, you must be prepared to part with it for less than you think it should go for, otherwise just put it in a FT list.
I like this idea as well. Trying to play a guessing game about what the trader is intending is frustrating to me.
As far as runes go, I've made peace with myself that I'll never be rich in this game. Actually, half the fun for me is to try to scrape up enough of the itmes I can get my hands to get useful gear for my few, but beloved characters :). I know I will never see any of the uber cool runewords that are out there, and that is just fine with me. I would, however, like to be able to trade for the middle class runes that would allow me to upgrade some of my best equipment, especially my HoZ (I really want to make at least my Pally the absolute best I can make him).
That said, I know there are members here that have been around for a long time, and they constantly fight to maintain the integrity of something they hold very dear. If the majority feel rune trading is too risky to the integrity of the trade pool, then that is just fine for me.
As far as "registering" (for lack of a better word) people to make them eligible to trade, I'm against that. It just has too much of a "1984" feel about it. Trading is based on trust, so if you have any bad inkling about trading with someone, silmply don't trade with them.
Cattleya
15-03-2005, 02:15
Well, since I have done a couple of auctions, I thought I would chime in.
(1) An item limit is probably a good idea. My first auction was 5 items, which made me feel a little limited. My second auction has 13 items (I think) which I feel is pushing it. (I decided to give it a try given the TC3 theme, and I wanted to get all of my TC3 items in.) So, I think 10 is probably a good number.
You were thinking 1 auction/1 ISO/FT at a time? This is okay, but when one has 3+ threads on the front page it's too many. Also, I think a clear time policy between auctions should be implimented, i.e. 1 auction thread per two weeks (or so).I think it is more than reasonable to keep it to one auction at a time. I think 1 auction thread/2 weeks would be a little restrictive, however. In my particullar situation, I can't really trade for the items I need (too expensive), but I do have a chance to roll for them (okay... a small chance. :D ) I would like to have the ability to start a new auction when the old one closes.
(2) Agreed. Post a minimum bid, and you have to be willing to let it go for that if that is all someone bids. (My first auction had no minimum bid, and I was aware that meant I might give up the items for 1 Pgem. Had that occurred I would have cheerfully sent the items, as that is the way an auction works.)
(3) Auction currency should be something that is well defined. Pgems are great as 2Pgems>1Pgem. It would probably be possible to work runes into the deal as well (should rune trading be allowed) but it might go more smoothly with a defined value system. This could even be defined by the individual auctioneer.
(4) Agreed. The close date (and time) should be posted in the initial post. I'm not sure that we need to regulate the length of auctions, as people will do what they find works best.
(5) I think a clear policy on bumping auction threads would be a good idea. By their nature, they have a high risk of falling off the front page (especially if they have just a few items or more "specialized" items.) It would be nice if the auctioneer had some ability to bump a thread, but we don't want them getting bumped every day. On my first auction, I posted a "less than 24 hours left" post. I did this both to bump it and to make it clear when the auction would end. (since not everyone wants to figure out when midnight PST is for them.) So, my suggestion would be to allow the auctioneers to post a 24-hour close of auction warning, and discourage any other bumping.
Crazy Runner Guy
15-03-2005, 04:15
So, my suggestion would be to allow the auctioneers to post a 24-hour close of auction warning, and discourage any other bumping.
Excellent suggestion. Perhaps a 1/2 time remaining post with current updates? That is what I find most confusing.
On updates: If the auction's ten items are currently being bidded on, all at the same time, I see no reason to disallow a daily update from the auctioneer. That way those who want to bid do not have to sift through threads to find what they are looking for.
How are auctions run on this site for Bnet? What are their rules. Perhaps they could offer some insight.
crg
My apologies to you all for not giving this thread the attention that it deserves -- and that I promised. Please understand that the events happening in the SPF have taken precedence in my moderator duties, and be assured that I haven't forgotten or ignored what is going on here. Thank you all for all of your time, thought, and input.
Crazy Runner Guy
15-03-2005, 23:37
@Krem: Is there any timeframe for when the rules are going to change or at least a new draft will be proposed?
crg
stupidgreen
17-03-2005, 05:53
Not so much a new contribution, but a comment. I think that the maturity of everyone who uses the trading forum is fantastic. This could have easily turned into a "flame-the-noobs-palooza."
Now contribution. I think that one of the problems with Rune auctions are the relative value of runes. I never have enough shaels, but plenty of dol's and io's. I would take a shael over those most days, since they are more useful. Is there anyway we can set that straight, or if an auctioner takes runes is it up to the auctioner to decide what ones he/she wants?
As items don't have a value other than the needs of the trader who offers them, I don't think runes will be priced according to their rareness. But we'll see :)
Maybe include something on trade etiquette too.
Maybe include something on trade etiquette too.
Care to expound on what you mean by "trade etiquette?"
"Trade etiquette" usually means being respectful and not being a jerk.
For example, if you feel someone's offer is lowball, just politely decline instead of saying "lol no way n00b" (not saying that anyone does that). It's also considered bad form to jump in on a deal that's already close to done and one-up someone.
I know what trade etiquette means, I was just wondering why frosty thought there should be a post (or the like) on it, and what should be included in that post.
I agree that there should be somthing posted regarding etiquette. Most everyone here is respectful, but occasionally some newcomers might not come across as so. A post might serve as a net to keep the maturity level of the forum at a high rate.
What should, however, be included as good etiquette, and would such things be rules, or merely suggestions?
Examples are those that are already raised by kabal. A section in the rules would suffice, with repeat offenders punished. Newcomers should be given some leeway.
Sleepless
20-03-2005, 06:31
The thread is old but i didn't gave my opinion of what should change in the rule.
1) Non-runeword item socketed with runes should be allowed for trade. It's a shame of not being to able to trade a weapon with a shael in it or a helm with a ral. I mean, why someone would dupe a Ral when they can get 10 in 5min with comptess running. Furthermore, most high rune aren't very good to socket in a non-RW item and could be used in MUCH better RW. I.e NO ONE in the spf would socket a helm with a ber to get 8%pdr...
2) Runes trading should be allowed. However, everyone should trade with people they trust as everyone is currently doing through. The only difference would be a better control of rune trading because it would be kinda weird if someone trade 4-5 identic high runes.
3) The others rules seems fair to be.
-My 0.02$
2) Runes trading should be allowed. However, everyone should trade with people they trust as everyone is currently doing through. The only difference would be a better control of rune trading because it would be kinda weird if someone trade 4-5 identic high runes.
Yeah. It's probably been said, but I'll rant :D
It's just as easy to dupe dozens of the first-found exp. unique, and start trading as to dupe runes and trade them!
Trading runes should be allowed.
HBeachBabe
24-03-2005, 15:32
perhaps my opinion here is worth less as I haven't traded here since the start of the seperate forum, but I have something to say anyway
I think the seperate forum has caused a disconnect from the SPF. sure, we can send people over there to post an intro but as has been mentioned, what does that change? I think the suggestion that you must register or something is good (and this coming from an anti-authoritarian libertarian) as it would be good to be able to keep track of who is trading here. And/or a list of all completed trades. Auction houses do this - this keep track of every transaction so items can be traced back, why not something here. Perhaps a seperate thread where a completed trade is "registered" (i.e. posted). If you are on some master trader list, held by AE/Krem you might be less inclined to trade illegitimately. OK, perhaps that's a little too fascist, but I'd like to see some way to make this board a little more "community" oriented and tied closer to the SPF.
As for runes, I think trades up to Shael should be allowed. it would take 81 Shaels to cube a Lum and 2187 to reach Lem, so it would be real obvious if someone is trying to get around the Shael limit.
I think being allowed to edit posts would be greatly helpful and I don't understand why it's ot allowed. when there was a single thread it was hard enough to see if a listed item was already traded. Now ith multiple threads you need a spreadsheet to keep track of things. Simply editing the first post could make things run much more smoothly.
Those are my thoughts for what they are worth.
On Editing-
Excepting Lemming with his nearly 3,250 views, nearly everyone else just makes a new thread every few weeks, or whenever theirs drops off the main page. While some of this is just wanting to keep their thread at the top, it is also because the first posts of some ISO/FT lists can change dramatically after a few pages and its annoying to have individuals posting things you have allready traded (i.e. they didn't read the rest of the thread).
FodderCannoned
24-03-2005, 19:16
I think editing of the threads would be nice, and being able to trade up at least hel for runes should be allowed.
perhaps my opinion here is worth less as I haven't traded here since the start of the seperate forum, but I have something to say anyway
I have never traded in public, and even with PMs it might've been 5 items total. My say in this would be minimal with your reasoning.
The 'fingerprint' is used for variable stats, but there is simply no way to reverse this AFAIK.
I think being allowed to edit posts would be greatly helpful and I don't understand why it's ot allowed. when there was a single thread it was hard enough to see if a listed item was already traded. Now ith multiple threads you need a spreadsheet to keep track of things. Simply editing the first post could make things run much more smoothly.
Additional server load AFAIK, which is something the admins cannot use right now. I guess they've been struggling with this for years.
The banning of runes is rather strange, since any item can be duped easily, and dumb cheaters get caught anyway, while the smart ones never get caught. Creating a Zod rune with modding takes a minute at most, and you've suddenly got an infinite supply of any item. Because it's wellknown that I can mod, I decided back then I wouldn't trade, since it's so easy to fool people when you can do that kinda stuff. I MFed a lot (and still do), yet the fact that I had 7000 items blew people away. In theory, it's actually infinite. Back to topic.
Any item is so easily created, especially with the latest editors around, so just banning runes because of that sounds strange to me. Without the bnet runewords I don't see a reason why high runes would be in so high demand, that they get created just for that purpose. Trading for a Sander's Paragon is really expensive too. High runes are rare enough, so it's noticable when someone has too many of them. Except the vets. :p
Trading used to be fine, why change that?
Edit: I'm against the banning of extreme offers too. When I really want that Cracked Sash I'll want to offer a TC87 for it without a problem.
Edit: I'm against the banning of extreme offers too. When I really want that Cracked Sash I'll want to offer a TC87 for it without a problem.
I agree. I'm the same way, just without many TC87 items.
necrolemming
24-03-2005, 21:50
Edit: I'm against the banning of extreme offers too. When I really want that Cracked Sash I'll want to offer a TC87 for it without a problem.
I'm fine with offering a TC87 for a cracked sash, but what about offering a cracked sash for a TC87?
That would be fine too. You could've given the TC87 away for nothing, so getting something back is always better. Depends on the trader I suppose, such offers are pointless when the trader wants certain items. I'm still searching for that Cracked Spiderweb Sash.
NSXdreamer
25-03-2005, 16:34
I think it should be rephrased as no ripping off newbies, when they don't know what worth what, and offer them a stormshield for their tyrael's might.
I will also throw out the idea of having a new dedicated mod just for this forum.
This isn't a knock on Krem or AE (I know what it's like to do your job), just that your main concern is (and should be) the main single player forum, not the SPTF. I have seen a few edits regarding runes and other things which have come several days after the fact. Most things seem to sort themselves out anyhow (anything suspicious seems to be reported rather quickly and posted to warn against potential cheaters), but for sake of effeciency it would be nice to have another mod for here, especially given the number of new members that come to this forum every week.
Just an idea.
Steven Q Urkel
29-03-2005, 20:11
I'm still searching for that Cracked Spiderweb Sash.
email plz
http://img139.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img139&image=screenshot0933zx.jpg :D
Cracked Spiderweb Sash
Defense: 41
Durability: 1 of 3
Required Strength: 50
Required Level: 46
Item Version: 1.10 Expansion
Item Level: 83
Fingerprint: 0xd146aaf4
And to stay within the original topic of the thread, I think rune trading should be allowed, although not without caution of course.
wreckernl@hotmail.com, thanks much. :teeth:
INC: I don't see a need for another moderator, but that could be because I don't really frequent this forum anymore. The influx of new members has always been quite large.
I was re-reading the first post and the rules, actually wondering when the mods would begin distilling new rules out of this posting carnage as I came across this:
Things you may NOT trade:
Characters
Quest rewards
Why would that be? Anyone knows? lmk :)
Probably because of things like character editors. Since it's exceedingly hard and time-consuming to work up a high level character, I bet some individuals would pay a good bit for a high level character. Others could also work up characters from scratch to meet the needs of a buyer, customizing their skills and playing through the whole game with them, kind of defeats the purpose it seems to me..
i.e. things like hellforge drops, which are banned here, ditto the Ral-Ort-Tal in act 5. The socketing quest, well, it's not hard to pop in the max number of sockets in anything before one trades an item, but this isn't really questioned at all.
Dodgydave
01-04-2005, 23:45
It's not really Quest Rewards which are banned. There's nothing to say you can't trade the nice rare ring you get from saving Cain or for returning the Gibden. I believe it refers to the fact you can't trade quest items like Kalims Will or the Horodric Staff and such.
Crazy Runner Guy
02-04-2005, 02:44
I was re-reading the first post and the rules, actually wondering when the mods would begin distilling new rules out of this posting carnage as I came across this:
Things you may NOT trade:
Characters
Quest rewards
Why would that be? Anyone knows? lmk :)
I was always under the impression this meant actual rewards, like socket quests and imbues.
crg
I was always under the impression this meant actual rewards, like socket quests and imbues.
me2
Question to Kremtok: When are you and Alter Ego going to distill the new rules out of this thread and apply them?
Honestly, probably not until after finals. I've been slacking on the forums lately, as I'm sure you have all noticed, and I apologize for it. But for now, it seems that there is no urgent issue that absolutely must be addressed in the rules, so I'm going to wait until I have more time to devote to this project. Thanks for understanding, everyone.
I don't know whether thos has been brought up before but IMO upgraded items, only exceptional to elite as normal to exceptional runes are common enough, should be banned if runes and runewords continue to be banned.
Dodgydave
07-04-2005, 00:11
I don't know whether thos has been brought up before but IMO upgraded items, only exceptional to elite as normal to exceptional runes are common enough, should be banned if runes and runewords continue to be banned.
This is a good point since runes are implicitly included in the upgraded item. However, they are also implicitly part of a crafted item as well and I don't think we want to ban them too.
Would it be possible to do a quick IP check all newcomers here, for multiple accounts/past bannings (another reason I support and additonal mod for this forum)? There seems to have been a few of those recently, which might have been more quickly delt with if somthing like this had been done.
necrolemming
14-04-2005, 03:18
I still stand by my suggestion that newcomers should have references before trading here.
Visionaire
14-04-2005, 04:57
I still stand by my suggestion that newcomers should have references before trading here.
Oh, that's a bad point IMO. For example as for me, I use this forum only for trades - all my posts were in Trade Forum. :) And I hope, I have clear reputation on it.
I use another forum to ask/answer a questions, which is my favourite, but it doesn't have stable trade sub-forum. That's why I am here - I liked this forum too. :)
2Kremtok/AlterEgo: What do you think about making legal trading rune-contained items which containes runes up to UM? To prevent offense I'll explain my point - because it will solve the problem of upgraded items (which required runes exactly up to UM for rares and PUL for uniques to upgrade). Yeah, also there is pretty usual when someone socket his/her item with UM to upgrade it's resists, but they can't trade this item, but it's just an another side.
Visionaire
Having an intro thread for everyone in a big stickied thread sounds like a good idea.
I'd let all runes from shael and under be tradeable, I'd love to start crafting more blood rings.
As for higher lvled runes, I like the ban. It makes me feel that much safer when I mp.
necrolemming
14-04-2005, 06:02
Oh, that's a bad point IMO. For example as for me, I use this forum only for trades - all my posts were in Trade Forum. :) And I hope, I have clear reputation on it.
I hope this doesn't come across as offensive, but I don't believe that just because you've basically only been doing trading in the SPTF at RPGForums.net makes this a bad idea.
Is there any harm to ask a new member to establish himself in the SP community a bit, make some friends, let others know a bit about his items, etc?
This would be like a sort of quarantine process for members. Members with dirty items would hopefully be screened out by the time a few well-respected members have gotten to know him. Also, members with horrific attitudes would also be screened out.
Anything you see wrong with this, other than your personal experience?
Visionaire
14-04-2005, 12:07
I hope this doesn't come across as offensive, but I don't believe that just because you've basically only been doing trading in the SPTF at RPGForums.net makes this a bad idea.
Hmm, I probably told my ideas a bit incoherent, and this is the cause of misunderstanding. I just wanted to show on my example how it can be.
Is there any harm to ask a new member to establish himself in the SP community a bit, make some friends, let others know a bit about his items, etc?
For example, I wouldn't trade here if this forum has that rules. Yes, intro thread is good idea - just to understand the "level" of that player and may be set starting attitude to that guy. But if everyone should post and post just to prove something to somebody - as I understand you - I think that some of newcomers would drop this forum, if they would come mostly for trades, like me.
This would be like a sort of quarantine process for members. Members with dirty items would hopefully be screened out by the time a few well-respected members have gotten to know him. Also, members with horrific attitudes would also be screened out.
Probably you are right. There would be less members then now, but more safety. But as I told - many people wouldn't join SPF, because of it's rules. As for me - I count myself honest guy but as for me I hate to prove it by words. And I think I am not the one.
Anything you see wrong with this, other than your personal experience?
No, only my experience. :)
Anyway, no offense in my words. I hope you guys will understand me. I like this forum, and in this case I just try to show that restrictions may affect it either good or bad.
Visionaire
Cattleya
16-04-2005, 22:33
2 things:
1) Regarding: Is there any harm to ask a new member to establish himself in the SP community a bit, make some friends, let others know a bit about his items, etc?
This would be like a sort of quarantine process for members. Members with dirty items would hopefully be screened out by the time a few well-respected members have gotten to know him. Also, members with horrific attitudes would also be screened out. I understand exactly what you are trying to do here, but I have some concerns about this implementation. Now, while all social situations (in the real world and virtual world) have some level of social hierarchies, you have to be careful about formalizing them. Who decides which members qualify to recommend others? I would just hate to see an "elite" group officially set up that start making some people feel alienated.
I would love for some sort of "quarantine" on new traders, but it is a lot easier said than done. Also, the real morons will reveal themselves quickly on the SPF, but others won't become obvious until they start trading, even if they have been posting for a while on the SPF. For the moment, I think sending people over to the SPF for an intro post is the best solution. You can get a pretty good idea if the person is willing to put in an effort to get familiar with the community or is just going through the motions in the intro post. Perhaps have a required "waiting period" between the intro post and when they can start trading?
While ideally people would wait for the big trades with new members on their own, that really hasn't been the case from what I have observed. Some formalized rules may be needed. The only solution I can think of is restricting new traders from trading high value items for the first little while. They have to complete X number of trades and have been trading on the forum for Y amount of time before they can trade items over TC Z. If rune trading becomes allowed in any form, new members would be restricted here as well. I'm not the best person to come up with the details, but if anyone thinks this idea has potential, feel free to run with it.
Maybe we need a guide separate from the rules giving people hints on how to protect themselves and trade as safely as possible. Zen's item quarantine idea is a good one. At least then you don't have to figure out which characters got tainted or face a potential complete restart. Also, explain how to check out previous post for people you are trading with. Come up with a list of warning signs. (Attitude, unsettling questions, ect.) Let people know that it is okay to politely refuse to trade with someone if they are uncomfortable. (I think we would be amazed how many people would feel this was rude and be reluctant to do this.) I also know that I check my trade threads every once in while to make sure that I didn't trade with someone who latter got banned. You know what? The more I think about it, the more I like this idea. I'm going to knock out a rough draft this weekend and post it up for comments. Even if it is decided that it is unnecessary, I will have something for my own reference.
2) I have another suggestion for auction rules:
-People bidding on items should always include what item they are bidding for in their posts. (In auctions with numbered items, just including the item number is fine.)
I've noticed that when people get into a "bidding war" over an item, they just quote part of the post with the last bid for the item, and in many cases any indication of what item was being bid on is lost. This makes it really difficult for someone else to bid on items, as they have to trace back the quoted posts to the original item. I think this will make it less likely that someone will miss a previous bid on an item on which they wish to bid.
The greedy shall suffer. Keeping someone busy at nights monitoring trades in virtual items seems utterly ridicules to me.
As for higher lvled runes, I like the ban. It makes me feel that much safer when I mp.
I'm rather puzzled. Please explain?
Caveat Emptor should be the motto of this forum. Simply put, if you don't trust the guy, don't trade with him.
I still think that common sense on the part of the traders is the best defense against the dupers, hackers, and otherwise illegit people that come through here every once in a while. Regardless of how many loops we make them jump through illegit players will still find their way into the trade forum, so we end up relying on fellow traders to spot the bad apples anyways.
The problem with trading high level items is that as soon as one is posted, regardless of how new the person is, everyone, myself included, flocks to their thread in short time. Given the rarity of some items, sitting back and waiting will net you nothing, as they are snaped up in such short time by individuals who are afraid that someone else will get the item. See the Stormlash that was traded, for example. Trust really isn't an issue in that case, only the item in question is.
I would then agree with Cattleya in that regard, that new individuals shouldn't be able to trade TC80+ items without making a few trades first. This, though, has the potential to be more pain that it's worth.
The problem with trading high level items is that as soon as one is posted, regardless of how new the person is, everyone, myself included, flocks to their thread in short time. Given the rarity of some items, sitting back and waiting will net you nothing, as they are snaped up in such short time by individuals who are afraid that someone else will get the item. See the Stormlash that was traded, for example. Trust really isn't an issue in that case, only the item in question is.
Just be happy it's virtual items people might be getting cheated with :) Greed should be punished ^^
NSXdreamer
24-04-2005, 19:04
The problem with trading high level items is that as soon as one is posted, regardless of how new the person is, everyone, myself included, flocks to their thread in short time. Given the rarity of some items, sitting back and waiting will net you nothing, as they are snaped up in such short time by individuals who are afraid that someone else will get the item. See the Stormlash that was traded, for example. Trust really isn't an issue in that case, only the item in question is.
That's the decision you will have to make, isn't it. Get it early and risk being burned, or be safe and let it go? You just can't have it both ways, and come back *****ing when you got burned due to your own choice.
I think a quarantine period is good, must have x number of non-spamming post at SPF before allowed to trade.
1)
They have to complete X number of trades and have been trading on the forum for Y amount of time before they can trade items over TC Z. If rune trading becomes allowed in any form, new members would be restricted here as well. I'm not the best person to come up with the details, but if anyone thinks this idea has potential, feel free to run with it.
2) I have another suggestion for auction rules:
-People bidding on items should always include what item they are bidding for in their posts. (In auctions with numbered items, just including the item number is fine.)
Well I'm not exactly the oldest member of the forum here - but shrug - a comment or two come to mind.
Regarding 1:
The X number of lower TC class trades is interesting, however the amount of lower TC items that are fairly obtainable and move very quickly isn't all that high. It might be a strain on folks to try to complete a bunch of lower TC trades if no one is all that excited about what they're offering. Not saying it'd always be like that - but it's something that rang a warning bell in my mind.
Regarding 2:
No argument whatsoever - threads get heavily heavily confusing sometimes, especially the ones that have been around a while or have a lot of ISO's and FT's and haggling.
Abdiel
LeorictheDark
03-05-2005, 00:07
Wow! I just read the whole thread (minus a few that I skimmed through). :bonk: My brain is numb, but well informed. So here is my 2 cents also. There appears to be 3 main topics here.
Trading Runes
Trading with new members
Conducting auctions
Trading runes is just like trading anything else, they're very easy to dupe. The fact that they don't have a fingerprint is moot since there are programs that generate items in the game that have distinct fingerprints too. I don't understand why someone would come here and trade duped runes when they could go download a mod and make whatever items they wanted for themselves other than to be malicious. Bottom line, If someone wants to scam you it's not hard to do. There is NO way to make trading here 100% safe and I agree with those of you who've said that using your judgement is your best defense. So with that in mind I am for unrestricted rune trading.
Trading with new members is a little bit different for some people. Posting in the SPF doesn't mean anything (read above). No one is going to read someones intro thread and say OMG that guy is a scammer. So what good does it really do to have people make a thread that says "hi, i like D2" so they can come over here and scam us anyway. I like the point system suggested earlier but it still won't work because... (read above)... there's no way to detect it. Now keeping track of the items someone is trading might work but it would take a lot of time to notice that "player x" has traded 3 Windforces and maybe we shold start questioning his legitimacy. By then they've been trading with us for quite sometime and stashes have to be deleted. Again, It all boils down to personal jugdement.
I guess I just don't understand why you (the community) wants to limit the number of items in a given auction? (legitimate question) As for bumping your thread, in an auction it is important to have your auction seen. So as to get the most possible for your effort. So I would second what others have proposed a "bump" in the form of a halfway mark on the time of an auction and once again at the 24hrs to go mark. I also feel that an auction should be standardized and should include:
A timeframe
A form of currency
Numbered items (it's so much easier)
Not necessary but I always am curoius about what the auctioneer is going to do with the spoils.
My 2 cents on (and I'm guilty of this one too) posting new/multiple FT/ISO threads. I think that bumping your FT thread should be allowed but should work like this. Once per week or after "x" number of pages (I think 5 would be appropriate) you can bump your thread by reposting your EDITED FT/ISO on your original thread. This serves the dual purpose of having your list bumped AND letting everyone else know what trades you have made without having to read your entire post.
I'm sorry I didn't offer a solution to trading but I honestly don't think that there is a definitive solution. I think if you spend enough time here you can figure out who the frequent traders are. The risk of getting hosed is everpresent. Use the force!
Looks like my 2 cents turned into $1.50. oops! :D
Dodgydave
03-05-2005, 01:57
I'd like to point out that while asking new members to post an intro thread at the SPF and to contribute there is by no means a fool proof way of screening members it's the best we have - and no ones come up with anything better.
It's also amazing the number of people who get caught out within a dozen posts. Threads pop up regarding such questins as: Is Doom or BOTD better for my merc? Or, will he teleport if I give him an Enigma? Or, I've installed a drop mod and now the game wont run, can someone help? (Wll maybe not that stupid, but you get the picture.)
LeorictheDark
03-05-2005, 01:59
I'd like to point out that while asking new members to post an intro thread at the SPF and to contribute there is by no means a fool proof way of screening members it's the best we have - and no ones come up with anything better.
It's also amazing the number of people who get caught out within a dozen posts. Threads pop up regarding such questins as: Is Doom or BOTD better for my merc? Or, will he teleport if I give him an Enigma? Or, I've installed a drop mod and now the game wont run, can someone help? (Wll maybe not that stupid, but you get the picture.)
I hadn't thought of that. Good point.
GooberGrape
11-05-2005, 20:21
Now that I am a participating member of both the SPF and the SP Trades forum, I'd like to cast my vote.
No rune trading, please.
Yes, that would include upped items, crafted items, and items socketed with runes.
Thank you.
-GG
It would be nice to just change this forum to only allow Single Player trades, not "Trading for Single Player & Open MP Characters." I don't think any members of the SPF would knowingly trade with an exclusive open player (friendly MP games with SPF members aside).
I know it's a stereotype against open players, but it has been shown to be true, and the level of trust is definitely not there.
Perhaps we could petition to get them their own forum, or just bar them from trading completely. It isn't like there is a large number of open players banging down the door to trade here.
I would also like to see a permanent sticky thread for HC players to trade in, as we seem to get one of those every once in a while.
EnerSense
19-05-2005, 17:01
Don't know if this was already suggested but here is my .02. On the subject of Rune/Runeword trading, I think it should be allowed. The only rule to this is that if you do this, you only trade for runes or runewords. You can't combine items in this type of trade with magic items, jewels, gems, elites, rares etc.
LeorictheDark
19-05-2005, 17:06
Don't know if this was already suggested but here is my .02. On the subject of Rune/Runeword trading, I think it should be allowed. The only rule to this is that if you do this, you only trade for runes or runewords. You can't combine items in this type of trade with magic items, jewels, gems, elites, rares etc.
Good suggestion EnerSense. Runes for runes... I like it.
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